Sunday, January 23, 2011

הלוואי אויף אנדערע קרייזן געזאגט די "מחלוקת" וואס מיר האבן אין ליובאוויטש


,הרה"ג ר' עמרם בן הגאון הגדול ר' מנשה קליין שליט"א בעל משנה הלכות ביי די "מעמד ההכתרה" זונטאג נאכט אין 770. פון קראנטע מקורות ווייס איך אז מ'האט צו ר' עמרם'ן ליגנט געזאגט און מ'האט אים צוגעזאגט אז הרב אזדבא ווערט אויך דארט זיין און די הכתרה איז נישט שרוי במחלוקת. ר' עמרם, וועלכע פירט היינט צו טאג אהן די בית מדרש און ישיבה פון זיין טאטע'ן, איז אן אייניקל פון מיטעלער רבי'ן מצד זיין רביצין, און איז זייער נאנט צו חב"ד

Call it damage control if you wish - the fact that I'm writing this - but the fact that such a contested event went off without a peep from the opposition tells you alot about Lubavitch today. Nowhere else would people who are so opposed to an event sit idly by and watch it happen, while mumbling in their leftover chicken soup from Shabbos. The fact that is what people point to and call it "Machlokes," and tell us how Lubavitch is falling apart at the leadership level, is laughable. Or the fact that two groups of "Shomrim" are in court. Of course there are differences of opinion, and there are struggles for who should be at the leadership forefront, but to compare that to what happens elsewhere is wrong. Wrong, I say. In CH people who supposedly can't stand each other often daven in the same shuls, send their kids to the same schools and yeshivos and shop in the same stores. They're even meshadech with each other! I don't think I need to start bringing proof from what happened in other kreizen, how the cops were called on YomTov and the chilul yomtov and Hashem that ensued. Yet for some reason some of you see what you want to see, not what actually happens.

But that's not the point of this thread.

The whole machlokes within the CH Rabbinate is a head-scratcher. Nobody really knows what they're arguing about. Something about who's in charge of the hashgocha in CH, and then a simple מי בראש between the two Rabbonim. Child's play, really. No multi-million dollar lawsuits, they're not fighting about hundreds of millions of dollars in Real Estate. A few old retirees of Russian descent decided they don't like the Tzugekumener Amerikaner Osdoba and they started this whole non-fight. So while the machlokes over nothing did turn ugly, and it should not be condoned, I don't see why Lubavitch needs to be ashamed of it, or why people wring their hands all day saying how it's things like this that turn off the youth and make them go OTD. The only question is why people who have such disagreements DO stay together? Why DON'T they start new mosdos, another complete new Beis Din, new yeshivos, chadorim, schools, camps, seminaries, and so on? Why does that only happen if the "antis" are in charge, and then the Meshichisten are the ones to break away and open shop? Is it because only the Meshichisten are ideologues, does nobody else REALLY care what their kids are taught and by whom? Or is it all Ahavas Yisroel, we don't want machlokes so we live in conditions that are not prime? Maybe separate but equal would stand to benefit all of us in this case.... I'm just saying...

The letter that Reb Amrom Klein sent to Rav Osdoba, apologizing for attending the "hachtoroh"

31 comments:

Shmerel said...

"A few old retirees of Russian descent decided they don't like the Tzugekumener Amerikaner Osdoba and they started this whole non-fight."

Again got your facts all skewed. Yosel K, and only Yosel K is responsible for this fight for some monetary gain (the Russians only mixed in li'achar ha'mayseh).

Anonymous said...

Shmerel
your conspiracy makes no sense, their is no money to be gained here

Anonymous said...

I said already in a previous thread that the meshichitin are fervent in their beliefs and the antis are wishy washy...
Grainom

ad mosai said...

Loo yiyeh kidvorechoh.
The real news is the 90% of CH who belong to the idontgiveashist group. They are totally apathetic and main motto is keep it away from me. During the fisher wars of 5747-8 it got very fierce, and although it never got physical, the tension was very high in the neighborhood. Today u have a few kochlefels on each side and everyone else couldn't care less. For shidduchim, most of the crowd would rather go with someone who believes the opposite of them (yechi vs. ziya) than with a tumuler who agrees with them.

And you're wrong about OTD. When people don't look up to rabbonim and respect authority, kids will find their own way. they say a pox on both your houses. If teachers pump the kids with propaganda, and they know their parents think the school, teachers is nuts, the kids in trouble.

not true said...

tzig dont play dumb ,
1)the fight between shomrim and shmira in CH was the foreplay to show everyone what happens if you use force and That battle was much worse than any petty fight from andere kreizen
2)its not true every group does daven separately evrey grouphas their seprate boys and girls moisdes and yeshivas

pitputim said...

Hirshel, Just imagine for a moment, that there was a young Geza in the waiting, with the charisma and learning of the last Rebbe, who started saying meaningful chassidus/maamorim. I would venture to say that the Meshichisten would reject him outright. The anti's would take 5 years and then accept him, and the young and restless who were pining to put their hands on someone in this world, would embrace him first.

The reason why Chabad go on and on and on, is because they aren't dumb like other chassidim (sorry to insult) and they know that if there is a real and visible split along the lines you were wondering about, then that's the end of the movement. Poshut Kipshuto!

Isaac Balbin

klainer said...

It's not just apathy and inertia-it's honest to goodness clinical depression.What's depression? In simple terms it's anger towards a person or situation that cannot be expressed because of catastrophic consequences that will result. The only alternative is to walk around feeling hopeless, sad, and at a loss as how to proceed.The more mature ones among us know the truth-we're on a slippery slope and out of control and all the false bravado in the world is not about to change anything. It's a dirty little secret that not only are our young people frying out at an alarming rate but many are also in deep trouble with the law as a result of a need to accumulate huge sums of money as fast as possible.Last I heard the forecast was for more of the same.
HaShem Yerachem.

Anonymous said...

its not the end of the movement, in the times of rayatz was the first time in history that there was only one chabad rebbe...

CH'er said...

Hi Tzig, as a longtime reader of your blog (going back to Atlas'days), this is sort of my first comment on a fresh post (Wish I could meet you btw, screw your head on straight vis-a-vis CH).

You made a very important and true point in the first part of your post, everybody here DOES intermarry, everybody does mingle, etc. etc., and those commenters denying it obviously don't live here in CH, because the above are facts too true to deny, we are neighbors, we are brothers, we are cousins vechulu.., maybe excluding a few extremists on both sides, and even some children of the extremists at times intermarry, so you are definitely one thousand percent right as far as that is concerned.

Now btw, R' Osdoba is נישט קיין צוגעקומענער, his wifes side is full fledged געזא, and he's been around since ימי בראשית, and plus he has the fact that he's been elected בזמן הבית, so I don't see anywhere any indication of this being an issue of nationality or yichus, and there's russians on both sides of the issue.

Re. the letter of R'AK, what do you expect when R'Os. Himself is a flip flop, first he wasn't coming then he was coming then he wasn't coming.

About the Shmira Shomrim thing, niether represent the community, they are [basically speaking] a bunch of immature kids, some are adults who for some reason known only to G-d still have yet to mature, and for they're own silly gang & power fights are willing to drag down an entire community, they - I'd say are the #2 problem that must be resolved after this BaDaTz issue, the reason being that they're violent, and once violence and lawlessness is in the picture איז צרות.

"Nobody really knows what they're arguing about", rubbish! They sure do, its all about who will be Rov, some will classify it as weather pro Krinsky (minority of CH) or against, others would classify it as Yechi or Anti, & still others who are simply looking for someone who's a Talmid Chochom and not a ba'al machlokes.

One thing is for sure, the election of R'YB was in no way anything about Braun, 95% of Anash have no clue who this fellow is, it was absolutely w/o any doubt whatsoever a referendum of pro or against Bogomilsky & what he represents, I'd venture to say, that if they would have put a candidate who doesn't have as a tainted history as his, they'd have definitely won, bli sofek.

Also btw, there ARE seperate schools for both extremes (ohel & ohr menachem, BR and BCM), but to make your first point even stronger (achdus) most decide to send to the more mainstream schools instead, and that's because most people are not into either extremes.

Anonymous said...

Klainer
does 770 still have Minyan?

yehupitz said...

I poshut don't understand what's going on with these comments. Here's what I have concluded: Is Crown Heights politics often a freak show? It sure seems that way. But when pontificating like those two old guys in the balcony on the Muppet Show about how awful Chabad is doing, is anyone paying attention to the still phenomenal world of shlichus?

Sure, everyone can (Tzemach-style) point out the "Oligarchy" stuff ad nauseum, but just like CH, people with open eyes know that the Rebbe's vision is accomplishing amazing things and helping yidden b'gashmius u'b'ruchnius all over. I'm not talking about getting kosher meals in Timbuktu. I'm talking about the Mosdos and help and chizuk they are still offering Jews, frum and otherwise, all over the Jewish world today. I don't know why Tzig isn't pointing out the obvious: Eastern Parkway is irrelevant. Sure people go there to visit remaining family and shop for some Chabad religious articles. But the Lubavitcher Rebbe's world, those who listened to what he actually wanted, is literally everywhere EXCEPT for Crown Heights.

As for the Yechi stuff: People actually doing the rebbe's work and people benefiting from it know how truly irrelevant that whole issue is. It's not just about PR. It's poshut not important. Sure, they're trapped in a catch-22: 1-The Rebbe said this is the Dor of Moshiach. 2- The Rebbe died. The bulk of the Lubavitch world, and I've spoken with a number of them who were honest with me, just quietly live with the catch-22. They don't sign Gil Student's or David Berger's lists, and they want Moshiach to come, and leave the details to the Eibershter and do their Rebbe's work. The Yechi battles in CH are politics related, so they ignore that for the most part too. We would all be better off letting it die out, and it is, if the kvetchers would just let it go.

(I know, I know: I'm the apologist... But that's really what I think.)

Anon3 said...

Hear Hear.Yehupitz,you have your head screwed on right.Gut gezokt.

Shmuel said...

Yehupitz,
I suspect that one of the reasons you like Lubavitcher shlichim is that Lubavitch has managed to water down the levels of knowledge required to be a practicing "rabbi" to a new low never before seen.
It's unusual to see any of this new (and older) crop of shlichim that you can call "yod'ei seifer".Sure they can parrot Sichos and read Kitzur Shulchan Oruch (with some difficulty.Last kinnus, year ago one, the shlichim chosen to read a kappitel Tehillim could literally not read simple "ivreh")

Shmuel said...

What yeshiva is Amrom running?
I don't think there is any yeshivah in the white elephant on 16 ave.Maybe a small kolel

The Apologist said...

"The fact that is what people point to and call it "Machlokes," and tell us how Lubavitch is falling apart at the leadership level, is laughable."


Careful how much you laugh, you may hurt yourself laughing to much.

The Apologist.


(The real facts are much worse than what people actually think and they are not very funny)

yehupitz said...

Shmuel,
I know the accusations. All I can tell you, without bursting this comment thread into flames, is that

1) Your suspicion is just incorrect: Those are not my reasons.

2) My experience in talking with shluchim in my areas of residence in the past few years has taught me that this perception that they are amaratzim is simply incorrect. There might be some who are, somewhere. I met one such shaliach 20 years ago.

and 3) But even with those for whom it is true, like the one I knew 20 years ago, they are Jewishly improving the world a whole lot more than most of those who bash them.

Statler & Waldorf said...

What does Elie Wiesel think?

Anonymous said...

It appears Rav Klein can't spell a posuk tehilim. נאלמתי דומיה מיט אן א' מלשון אלם נישט נעלם.

אדער האב איך פארזען דא א מליצה?

Anonymous said...

R' Tzig,
What do you say about the new giluim which came out recently? The first sicha to N'shei Chabad; A reshima on Likkutei Torah! Additionally, the Living Torah audio clip of the Rebbe speaking with Dov Hikind in Shiva (24 Shvat) is chilling.

(Agav, apparently, JEM has all the audio clips, but are just slowly releasing them. Hence, the transcripts of what was said in shiva)?

Fed Up in Peoria said...

How do you know me so well?

klainer said...

It's not just apathy and inertia-it's honest to goodness clinical depression.What's depression? In simple terms it's anger towards a person or situation that cannot be expressed because of catastrophic consequences that will result. The only alternative is to walk around feeling hopeless, sad, and at a loss as how to proceed.

Anon3 said...

"It's unusual to see any of this new (and older) crop of shlichim that you can call "yod'ei seifer".Sure they can parrot Sichos and read Kitzur Shulchan Oruch (with some difficulty.Last kinnus, year ago one, the shlichim chosen to read a kappitel Tehillim could literally not read simple "ivreh")"
Is your above boich svoreh based on a "scholarly", "scientific" perusal and systematic,verifiable farher of all (most) shluchim "new and older" or are you of the school of thought that believes that an "assumption" totally irrelevant to facts on the ground,if repeated enough times, becomes " unassailable truth"?Is the constant repetition ad nauseum that a shliach made a mistake in reading a kapital Thillim, the best that you can come up with, to build the foundation of the straw house you set up? How many times have I been at a chassunah where some Livisher Rosh Yeshivah when called upon to recite one of or more Sheva Brochos, stumble over his words?Nu,so does this prove that all Roshei Yishvois ignorant boors?So C the C.

klainer said...

To: Fed Up in Peoria
I know you as a kluger, eideler yid with a fine sense of humor. Kol Tuv.

Anonymous said...

Shmuel
"Last kinnus, year ago one, the shlichim chosen to read a kappitel Tehillim could literally not read simple "ivreh")"
this piece of information has been sucked to the bone by the chabad bashers, get a new story already

Anonymous said...

Shmuel
"crop of shlichim that you can call "yod'ei seifer"."
Did chabad ever claim that shluchim are Gedolim? when they have a shielah they call a rav, when they build a yeshiva they bring a "Rosh" for a Mikveh they bring a Rav, what exactly is your problem?

Anonymous said...

I believe Russians/Polish don't enjoy a machloke as the Hungarians, just look at Ger, how a big chassidus like Ger,that had 1000's of chassidim that were worshiping the Great Reb Shaul couldn't get some funds to put him in tracks. By the Ungarisher he would be a long time in business.

Shmuel said...

"when they have a shielah they call a rav,"

Wonder which rav they call? The ones that paskened that one maynot say zechuso yogen oleinu or z"l on the rebbe?

Anonymous said...

Someone should tell R' Amram that when he was invited R'OA was slated to attend... So there's nothing to apologize for.

Anon3 said...

"when they have a shielah they call a rav,"

Wonder which rav they call? The ones that paskened that one maynot say zechuso yogen oleinu or z"l on the rebbe?"

Lo and behold a "new light" has arisen who thinks that he's being mgaleh new giluyim.He really is nothing more then another one of those individuals who spend his sorry and pitiful life casting about scraping the bottom of the barrel with the intent of finding some new piece of shmutz with which to bash Lubavitch and failing miserably.
As I told you earlier C the C and run back to your
preschool classmates and tell them about your "heroic" and"intellectual" sock it to them inanities.

lippa said...

What yeshiva does amrom run?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I think there's a Yeshiva in Ungvar these days that he runs. I may be wrong.

Anonymous said...

he is running a yeshiva from Boys that were deserted, after Boyan closed their doors, I dont think next year he has a Yeshiva