Sunday, January 30, 2011

Practical Belzer advice



Call me a panderer, but it seems like some of the best conversations here happen when they concern Belz, and that topic has also been discussed here at great length - why Belz makes for such fascinating discussion. I was actually gonna give this post some other title, especially since of you may deem the advice that the Belzer Rov, Reb Yisocher Dov, zt"l, gave a little too practical, especially since it seems to be not in accordance with Shulchan Aruch, shall we say? Two things here can be questioned by any mesivta kid here in any one of Monsey's fine institutions: 1) why he told him to daven late if he could daven early; is davening with the Rebbe שלא בזמן better than davening with an עולם of regular chassidim בזמן? It's not like he was gonna in the Lakewood or Mirrer Minyan in the shtetelle Belz... Then, if that wasn't enough, he tells him to eat before davening! How much can one man take? Of what purpose is a davening that you daven on a full stomach after the prescribed time?! Do they even daven to the same G-d, these people? Chassidim were often accused of believing in their Rabbeyim, even if what they did was not necessarily LeKatchilah according to the letter of the law. Of course Lubavitch gets the brunt of those "complaints." Is it fair to try and divert some of that criticism? The redeeming advice here - for those who need it - is where he tells him - the שנה ראשונה yungerman - to quit complaining so much, which shows you how despite it all the tzaddikim were concerned for the well-being of Yidden, spiritually and physically, and that telling a yungerman to daven with his minyan even if it's late is just as "sound" advice as telling him to look after his health.

On that note; I heard from a Yid whose father was in Budapest in 5704 and went to daven by the Belzer Rov, who davened very late, they started Shacharis in the afternoon. (!) There were thousands of people there waiting to daven with the Rov, and they were hungry, so they were served potatoes before davening. We can sit here and argue the difference between coffee, (שהכל) potatoes (האדמה) and the Lubavitcher chocolate chip cookies, if you'd like. Anything to make you people happy.

55 comments:

Gevezener Belzer said...

R' Hershl, yasher koichachem for indulging us ober az shoin den shoin. Turn to page 122 (final para of Padwa's letter) of the same issue and they've got a story beshem R' Mendl Futerfas that the Lubavitcher Rebbe once davened minche late after returning late from the Oihel and said 'haint veln mir davenen a Belzer minche.'

On eating before davenning, the Belzers were renown for it although haint zenen zei frum gevorn. There is even a vertl of a yoishev standing at the window in the early hours who is asked what he's waiting for. His reply was, that he's waiting for it to become light so that he can go and eat. (A bit like the Gerer who is makpid dafke oif a dine gartl.)

Anonymous said...

its called a sandwich in lubavitch

Anonymous said...

It seems as the Letter section does not pass the censor of the Vaad haCensor

Anonymous said...

Tzvi

In general, Belz were extremely stringent when it came to Shulchan Aurch. It was only when they were davenig with the rebbe that they were lenient in eating a small snack before Davinig, given the fact that the rebbe davened very late, in particular after Hitler's rise to power.

It should also be noted that a Belzer Davining, and in particular during the Yomim Tovim, was a very long and exhausting experience, unlike Lubavitch -if I may dare say -that they have long adapted Einstein's theory of relativity, when it came to implementing what the Alter Rebbe writes that a usual weekday davining should take at least an hour and a half.

Belz Empire said...

There is a new site for Belz.

belzempire.blogspot.com

belzempire@gmail.com

Anonymous said...

Who said patatoes are s hadomah?

Me Vekt Einem Nor Far Essen, Nish Far Davenen said...

al Derech zeh,
Can anyone enlighten about Belzer Achilah before davening on Shabbos?
As a kid, my father and I ate geshmake cake, nuch de Mikva, far'en Davenen.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"given the fact that the rebbe davened very late, in particular after Hitler's rise to power."
davene after Chatzois was by all the last 3 belzer rebbes, but reb Aron started to daven almost by sunset in the 1930's
"Belz were extremely stringent when it came to Shulchan Aurch"
which chassidus is not stringent, besides a few minor things, You will be shocked that Breslov has no minhag that is not accordance with Shulchan Orech, they dont even drink coffee before Shachris and the daven Vossiken

Anonymous said...

anyone know anything about the Belzer custom of breaking their fast before neila?

Anonymous said...

the whole world excluding the Komarner chasidim

Belzer Blogger said...

Dan Quayle said "patatoes" are hadomah

Gevezener Belzer said...

Mr Belz Empire, I wish you well but I'm afraid a name like that is not an auspicious beginning. It is a translation from Mamleches Belz, with its logo in the shape of a crown, its leader ensconed in a palace and the chasidim treated like 3rd class citizens dependant on the benevolence of their corpulent leader.

To paraphrase Voltaire: It is neither Holy, nor Belz nor an Empire. And in case your're not aware the holy empire came to an end with the death of Charlemagne in 814.

A word of advice though: you could take a tip or two from R' Hirshl how to allow respectful but free discussion. Should it take off you may see me there but not if it must conform to the views of the holy empire.

Belz Empire said...

the name is based on Voltaire's comment.

Voltaire also said,
"Man is free, when he wants to be"

russian chusid said...

Well, today's Belzer is busy with zman tfila, Boyaner, Alexander etc.

I guess this is the biggest problem of Klal Isruel right now....

I think their moach kutten can't go further then that.(besides Belzer-i think he is just trying to be an oiberchuchem)

Anonymous said...

Hot stuff!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47828620/%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%9F-%D7%98%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%A0%D7%90-%D7%94%D7%A4%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%97%D7%9D-%D7%A0%D7%92%D7%93-%D7%94%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%96%D7%A8

Anonymous said...

I heard that the Der Yid has a ranting article against the Ohr Hatzofen that it is very Zionistic, they banned it from the Willi stores.

Anonymous said...

I heard so too but didn't see it. Apparently what upset them was an article in the last issue or one before about R' Ahron's views on the establishment of the State. Naturally it didn't quite fit in with the shitah so Der Yid naturally went on the offensive.

Anonymous said...

Hamechuna b'shem "A belzer Mincha" (I thought i'd find a better source, from the Rebbe himself) - http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/260058/jewish/A-Belzer-Mincha.htm

On the topic, Also see:
http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/livingtorah/player_cdo/aid/1393829/jewish/The-Physicians-Prayer.htm

Anonymous said...

i remember that CBT accused the belzers 1of stealing the land from rav hutner ??







1

Anonymous said...

almost no butcher in jerusalem will touch belzer meat because of the cherem of the eidah. they almost had peace 2 years ago but thw BR insiated on taking zionist money for the talmud torah.

The Bray of Fundie said...

Th advice is not particularly new, i.e. that belly-aching to ones wife is a bad idea; as it is a Khaza"l in Avos D'R' Nosson.

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14006&st=&pgnum=52

(last five lines)

What's new is limiting it to שנה ראשונה niks

Anonymous said...

Hershel,

do you know the song by Reb Aizel H. about seeing the Besh't?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

no. what song is that?

Anonymous said...

You want me to sing it to you as a "comment"?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

first let's see the words

grainom said...

streshile is alive and well if bialistotzky thinks he can get money from the,!
http://bhol-forums.co.il/topic.asp?cat_id=4&topic_id=2873156&forum_id=771

Fed up in Peoria said...

If he has nothing to offer and is a despot, why is he adored by his followers in a cult like fashion?

Anonymous said...

Because he sells the feelgood...lots of singing, big tisen, fancy shul, lots of propoganda that only insider brainwashed ferden believe....

He sells little obligation (other than demanding your money) and a fairytale to those who really are desparate to believe in something whether true or not.....

The only thing Belz takes a stance on is more money and more power....so we start our own kashrus...our own Beis Din and a palace that could fit thousands of homeless Belzers who took out mortgages for extra extra extra large chandeliers....

...no derech in chassidus....no attention from their Rebbe....no personal contact and lots of b.s. stories of mofsim and chidushe torah....

Can any non Belzer in the whole world repeat one dvar torah from the present Belzer Rebbe ????

klainer said...

Fed Up:This is the biggest hatchet job that's ever deen done on a Chassidishe Rebbe. He offers his people cradle to grave services with an extensive array of social service benefits. Almost everyone gets married and set-up in a proper fashion. He has yeshivos and kollelim and girls schools that are second to none. He has produced a cadre of dayyanim that are exceptional in their mastery of halacha. His dayyanim are constantly speaking at Irgun Shiurei Torah and you know they are exceptional talmidei
chachamim.
Here's the scoop: The Lubavitchers hate him cause he befriended Rav Shach ZTL; The satmarers despise him cause he did the unthinkeable-broke with the edah and ridiculed their whole shiteh.Generic hassidim resent him cause he sat with the litvishe moetzes not the chassidishe. So he's managed to make enemies in many high [or low] places.He's the same dictator that every other rebbe is. You want demoracy-vote for Rahm E. for mayor of Chicago.

russian chusid said...

Klainer,

Not everything in the world is politics. Some people do not like a Belzer and others just because they are NOT REBBES to the meaning of this word (avoide, dveikus, echidim,bringing every Yid closer to Der Eibershter-(not to his party) etc.)- whats so hard to understand?

klainer said...

Russian Chusid:The visciousness with which the Belzer has been attacked has anything to do with avode,dveikus,etc.?Are we reading the same comments? You can disagree with him but to reduce him to ashe un blote?It's OK to be mevazeh a talmid chochom and bnon shel kedoshim in public over and over?What did he do? We are concerned whether he eats the aier and tzvibel with a fork and not with his fingers?What other high crimes is he guilty of?That's what's so hard to understand.

Best joke so far said...

klainer said...You want demoracy-vote for Rahm E. for mayor of Chicago.

Hysterical!!!

Rahmbo is the biggest (ultra-liberal) dictator of all!

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Even though the Chaim Berlin oilem consider themselves arch-enemies of the Belzers, as explained in past posts because the Chaim Berliners were bested by the Belzers to the piece of ground in Yerushalayim where the CBers had put down a hefty deposit but the Belzer Rebbe managed to outsmart them and take it for his binyan.

But all this does not bother a dude like Leib Tropper who is in with Belz and Chaim Berlin alike.

Tropper's relationship with the Belzer Rebbe is in some ways older and deeper, who was willing to get into kiruv while he was looking for innovative ways to raise money for his new binyan and used "Leibel" as his sounding board on this subject.

In return, Leib Tropper always manages to heap praise on the Belzer Rebbe and anything or anyone to do with Belz, making Tropper famous and liked by the Belzers more than he is liked by CBers because while RAS may love Leib Tropper, the average CBer either does not know Tropper, is not goires him, and just sees him as another pest-project that RAS is known to take under his wings to the detriment of the CB yeshiva and its name.

Here's what Tropper on his nebechdikke "כבוד התורה" blog http://www.kavodhatora.com/ has to say about "Belz and kiruv":

"Sunday, January 23, 2011

Belzer Rebbe Pained Over Assimilation

In a recent talk given by the Rebbe Shlita to his Chassidim, he expressed strongly that we must wage a major campaign to turn the tide of assimilation.

The intermarriage rate is above 50% in the U.S. alone.

Merkaz Rabbonei Europe at their most recent conference made the problem of intermarriage a theme of their gathering. The Conference was held in Milano, Italy."

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

More from Leib Tropper's "כבוד התורה" blog http://www.kavodhatora.com/ on "Belz and kiruv"

"Thursday, November 18, 2010

Belz and Kiruv

The Belzer Rav, Shlita is above all a leader with creative vision.

The project "Tzohar" which now includes a program for teens at risk is the most successful yet.

The breadth of the program is fascinating. The talent involved in this work is unusual.

There is no other program for teens at risk on the globe that has that kind of real success.

This program is the brain child of the Belzer Rav, shlita.

There are other programs that have a 'Kind' of success."

Is this guy a chanferer or what? And the lies! No "other" program" has the "success" of this one? What is he smoking? But the Belzer Rebbe will be happy if he ever gets a print out of Leibel's usual chanifa.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"no attention from their Rebbe....no personal contact"
The videos of his receiving Chasidim for Shulem Alechem and Mazel tovs are so ruthless, he does not move is hand the minimum towards the Chussid , he gives peklech for tu bishvat, his hand does not move, his attendant puts it in his hand, and the kid takes it out, his face is motionless it looks so gruesome. He looks like a dead man walking.Why his he doing it, is he in a Kotzker mood? If you follow his career you will see constantly different mood swings.

Anonymous said...

belz always had their owb shilchus orech, always twisted the shilchun orech to please what ever they did.

regarding stories in belz, from any other chassidus out there nobody ever twisted, doctered, altered and rewrote history (their own) as belz did.

one can never rely on the fabrication that belz produces, especialy in the abouve monthly brainwash magazine. no wonder people stopped buying it.

most of their menhogim are on the foundation of stupid "klein-shtetel" stories not the shilcon orech, yes ofcourse the "mareh makom" was found and added later, not the other way around.

russian chusid said...

Klainer,

A)Yes it does- you have to know who is a real Gudo/Rebbe or not-thats by the way Chazon Ish, not mine.

b)Thats precisly what he did for years- talked against real gdolim b'rabim , mvayesh talmidei chachumim etc.

I do dnot have to least it all- i think der geveiziner belzer can help me on expalining his crimes.

Anonymous said...

Klainer
"He has yeshivos and kollelim and girls schools that are second to none"
I live in BP and I can tell you that his institutions are bichlal not on the top of the ladder, not Begashmius not Beruchnius , Visnitz Monsey Rachmistrivke has a great Cheder, Visnitz BB has the best Chasidic Yeshiva Ketana, Both Bobovs have better girl schools. All this mosdos are in better shape with out the Gam Ato Yochel psychologist of the new belz toras hanefesh school.

Anonymous said...

the belz rebbi was not brought up in a warm home, he grew up with complex and paranoia.
he pampers his chassidim for his own will, to build him the biggest shul, to build him the biggest house. the olny thing he gave them in return was "aron mordchai" the future "heiliger" belzer rebbi.
the term "achim hakedoshim" is part of his childish brainwash, reb moteleh (how he was and is known) was never or near close to what his brother was. stop forcing your fantasies on people.

Anonymous said...

Klainer
"t's OK to be mevazeh a talmid chochom and bnon shel kedoshim in public over and over"
are you talking about the Benon shel Kedoshie Elyon Chasida Uprisha Reb Yeoshua Rokeach?

Anonymous said...

CBT
was Trooper caught red handed "intermarrying" ? you are mistaking, check your facts, .

ad mosai said...

"Here's the scoop: The Lubavitchers hate him cause he befriended Rav Shach ZTL; The satmarers despise him cause he did the unthinkeable-broke with the edah and ridiculed their whole shiteh.Generic hassidim resent him cause he sat with the litvishe moetzes not the...."

Lubavitchers don't hate him and what happened 22 years ago is long over and done with. He went with degel bec he was pissed they didn't give him a guaranteed spot on the aguda list, and it wasn't against Chabad. Even satmar already forgave him, and his BIL RAT was ready to meet with him 2 yrs ago. Some people got in the way
but it will happen soon.

Your total take on him is off-base. He's a gr8 community organizer, and as someone said, he built the real cradle to grave system that satmar wanted to be. His dropout rate is the envy of everyone else, and most of the sinah to him personally is probably jealousy. He has nothing to offer in kedusha, ruchnius, but he put in position some very erliche gelernte chevra who can offer some real meaning beyond
housing, cheap kiddushin and weddings, parnossah assistance, etc.

The real problem is his health ain't great and AM has (to quote a belzer friend) "the middos of his father and the seichel of his mother".

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

"Anonymous said...CBT was Trooper caught red handed "intermarrying" ? you are mistaking, check your facts,."

Yawn, who said anything about him "intermarrying"?

Tropper divorced-dumped his first wife Leah Margolin and married Liba (Laurel) Blond a quickie baales teshuva he met.

About a year ago, Tropper was caught having a sexual relationship with a shiksa (Shannon Orand), together with his wife (Liba), in what's called a "threesome" anchuldikt mir. Orand wanted to be megayer, NOT to marry Tropper, even though he forced her to have sex with him and with other men as proven on tapes she recorded posted online, search YouTube.

Orand wanted a giur and Tropper held her a hostage by telling her that if she wanted him as her rabbi, she was also working for his EJF organization in Texas, and to help her get the geirus, she needed to "please" him (Tropper) and a few of his menuvildikke friends to give them "treatments" as he called them.

All this was and still is online and it was what forced Tropper to quit.

You can read all about it at, click on the links to read in-depth:

"Tablet Magazine

Sex, Lies, and Audiotape: A collection of our stories on the scandal surrounding Rabbi Leib Tropper

By Tablet Magazine | Jan 20, 2010

Con Game: How a New York rabbi tried to remake the rules on converting to Judaism, until a sex tape—and a family feud between his wealthy backers—brought him down

Tale of the Tapes: Orand’s dirty phone calls with the man she says is Tropper

Converted: When Shannon Orand asked Rabbi Leib Tropper to help her study to become a Jew, he asked for sexual favors in return, she says

Prodigal Son: Guma Aguiar, together with his billionaire uncle, who’s the board president at the 92nd Street Y, bankrolled a New York rabbi trying to control the standards for conversion to Judaism. Now, amid a messy family feud, he’s been committed to a mental hospital.

Among Friends: Leib Tropper spent his way into the rabbinic elite—and, even after his fall, those other rabbis are unwilling to condemn him"

There's plenty more stuff, but first start by reading up on this. By the way, maybe you could also take a course in English reading and comprehension that you should find very useful.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

CBT

can I ask that we continue the Tropper conversation in the thread that speaks of him? (not in a Belzer thread)

and can we keep the x-rated stuff to a minimum?

This is a family blog.

Thanks

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

"Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...CBT can I ask that we continue the Tropper conversation in the thread that speaks of him? (not in a Belzer thread)"

Hi Tzig, sure, I posted this stuff here because it's about Tropper blog talking about Belz, and this IS the way he talks about Belz. Nothing more to add at this point.

"and can we keep the x-rated stuff to a minimum?"

Sorry for the inconvenience but it was/is Tropper who is responsible for that. Like asking to speak about about arayos beloshon nekiah. I will will try!

"This is a family blog."

Understood!

"Thanks"

Thank you too for being a good host on this blog and thanks for the feedback. Apologies to anyone who was caused to blush by these serious "adult" topics, but as I said, it's hard (actually, now it's impossible) to discuss Tropper and skip over the "x-rated stuff." Thanks again.

Anonymous said...

Guys
stop with the Belzer, the Chasidic Wikileak of Itche Tolner labels him as "no Tipas Yiras Shomaim, give the Belzer a break, they have important business to attend now, to built up a PR smear campaign against the Pnie Menachem

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Ok, to call a spade a spade, how come nobody mentions what is known that the Belzer Rebbe had a serious nervous breakdown about twenty years ago when he put himself under the HUGE pressure to build his mega-shull that nearly drove him and his chasidim insane with all the pressure he put on himself and them to bring in the tens of millions to buy land, pay contractors who at one point came in with guns and warned him that he either pays up or else (no chasidisha shtik) and he just collapsed under all that.

He came out of it. His mega building was built. But he still has to run and maintain his empire. So he comes up with all sorts of ways to generate ideas and people to channel mega bucks to him, like his new TV kiruv channel with online wakos. He forces all his chasidim to visit him once or twice a year (think of all the air miles and points someone is raking in) and each time they come each one has to come with a huge pidyon of thousands of bucks.

No wonder these guys have no time for anyone or anything, they are on the Belzer treadmill 24/7 and can't get off and the Belzer Rebbe is driving them like wild huskies, mush, mush, mush.

Who has time to smile or be human when you are one huge Jabba the hutt?

klainer said...

Itche Tolner Wikileaks?Vos meint dos?

Anonymous said...

Sie sind ein ungarischer Pfau

Belz Empire said...

The Belz Empire blog is not needed.
This blog is now broadcasting as WYDR - the 24 hour Belz station.

BelzerDrellak said...

Belzer history is many times more fascinating than (and is not really a antecedent to) anything Belz is currently.
Thats why I wanted a Belz history site with many chalukim, se'if'im, Mareh Me'Koimes, Bilder, Vert'lech, Mah'ses etc. Still want to do it, and do it properly, so that it wont be Nish'take'ch

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

you can start by explaining what a "drellak" is

(I'd be glad to host any interesting historical chapters you'd like to write?

Der Bach's Blotteh said...

as a kid, I was called a Belzer drellak, and you're right, of all historical matters Belz, getting to the bottom of "Drellak" is Rosh Ve'Rishon.
Seriously, here's a good place to start.
How did a R' Sucher Ber come from a Reb Shi'al'e, and Sar Shulem? He seems a very different shnit in personality and MeHalech.
Also, when did RSB return to Belz, it seems many years after WWI was over?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I believe it was 1924

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
the term Drelak was used in the Munkacher anti Belz pamphlets