Monday, January 3, 2011

רוה"ק without Torah cannot be!!

We know about VeLo Am Ho'Oretz Chossid, but can a Tzaddik be a Tzaddik/Baal Mofes without being a Talmid Chochom? Surprisingly enough that seems to be the general concensus when it comes to Reb Shayelle, sadly enough, and that point is addressed in the book. They try hard to disspel it as a myth, and bring several stories to counter that opinion, saying that it was a chelek of his hiding his greatness in Torah and Avodah, and that from time to time he would remind people of his proficiency in Torah, just so that they remember... Despite that it seems like the general opinion did stem from the fact that he would read from Noam Elimelech during tishen, instead of saying divrei torah like some other Rebbes. During the poezer (recess) between Shacharis and Mussaf on Rosh Hashonoh, when other Rebbes would go to the Mikveh and learn Zohar etc. Reb Shayelle would cut cake and pour schnapps into cups so that hungry Jews would have what to eat... And believe it or not, but they say that his final - or at least one of his final - request(s) before he passed away was to tell his hoizgezint that they should prepare lots of food for all the people that will soon come to the levaya, so that they not go hungry... No wonder they say in the name of the Minchos Elozor that he said on Reb Shayelle that אויף בארשט און קארטאפל איז קיינער נישט קיין מתנגד.....

So when I said yesterday that the Petrushener Rov - a Pressburger Talmid - belittles Reb Shayelle's prowess in Torah I may have singled him out unfairly. We can infer the same opinion from the Munkacser Rov, and I see some of you heard the same thing from your antescedents. I'm very bothered by this, especially when it comes from friends, not "Misnagdim," because it perpetuates the myth that Chassidim can't and don't learn. After all, here we have this Rebbe of thousands of Chassidim, or at least admirers, who could see MiSof HaOlam VeAd Sofo, Kipshuto, who could send wild dogs to hold back a wagon of his Chossid and keep his Chossid out of harm's way, who could keep the Budapest express train from leaving until his Chossid got on that train , and he had difficulty with a "shtikkel tosfos?!" So עולמו של אבא seems to bavoren this question and says that the reason he was zoche to that level of ruach haKodesh was because he was nizhar in Cheyt Hayodua and because he gave away all his money while still a MaSHB"K in Liska. What also is baffling is that Reb Hershelle Lisker is the one that took him out of Yeshivah - after Reb Shayelle's mother sent him there to learn - and made him his MaSHBaK! His mother heard about it and wanted to take him home, but RHL convinced her that he'd lose nothing by becoming his Meshamesh, and she agreed. So did he remove him from Yeshivah because learning was not his "thing?" Can one be a Tzaddik without being well-versed in Torah?!

The Minchas Elozor of Munkacs in Marienbad (perhaps)


Der Ruv said...

The Pele Yoetz says in his sefer that although people like to say their own dvar Torah, it is actually much better to read something that has already been written in a sefer.

(I'm paraphrasing, as I don't have the Pele Yoetz in front of me at the second.)

Grainom said...

The amount of bizayon derech habesh"t umamshichov displayed on the previous post with regard to R Shayale Krestirer is astounding.
Ain am ho'oretz chosid is a mishna! The Koznitzer Magid was matir agunos, his son RMEB was refered to disparagingly as "der tillim zugger" until his many seforim were printed... There were many tzadikim who for whatever reason hid their Torah knowledge. Its absurd to think that a person can reach such madreigos of "tzadik gozer..." While being an am haaretz...
Supposedly one of the issues dividing derech habaal shem and the gaon, was whether or not to learn from magidim, as we know the bal shem tov did and the gaon told r chaim volozhiner not to. But just think for a moment, Hashem isn't sending magidim, being megaleh rozei torah, or being meshaneh the teva for amaratzim and leidigeiers like me and you...

Anonymous said...

ich farshtay nisht.
since when is ruach hakodesh / mofsim directly related to greatnesss in torah??
if let's say R' Moshe Feinstein was a bigger gaon than R' Arele Belzer, does that mean that R' M' had more R'HK or did greater Mofsim than Belzer Ruv????

yoske said...

Chazal tell us that in hayntigeh doiris the sh'chinah is shoruy b'dalet amos shel halacha. This means that klal yisroel used to connect to Hashem through R"HK, but now, they connect to Hashem through Torah. HKB"H gave us a torah to show us how to connect to him. the fact that someone's a talmid chochen definitely isn't irrelevant to the fact that he has RH"K, or some form of spiritual connection.

Anonymous said...

der oyalom shluft!
vek zich oif far kovod hatorah!

dovy in jersey said...

for that matter can anyone say that they know that the besh"t was a talmid chochom? how about reb zushe, reb meilich, reb levi yitzchok, reb meir m'premishlan, and of course the rizhiner and his sons and eineklach. (and today the skulener, the tosher...)

bobov chusid said...

i am also from the lot who read this book (sefer? you must be kidding me), but probably from the few, who read between the lines.

this person was erlich, true believer and oved, yet, not one rav, rebbi, or rosh yeshiva had anything with him. for example the city of Mad right across from kerestier, the rav of mad had zero relationship with him. they had to dig deep in the barrel to find somthing. it appears that he had most with the satmer rebbi (see index, look it up) this is bad news and bitter joke.

mofsim is written about every rebbi that passes away. so if you start writing don't stop keem on manufacturing more.

reb duvid moshe of tcortkov said: even if you"ll bow to a stick, it will start doing mofsim.

Anonymous said...

this book is funny, why?

please don't make from a butler, to a chef, to a cook, to a waiter, into a...


no wonder he had a movement free food and drink and yet served at same time, of course most poor yidden ran to home.

Wonderman said...

Haitian Voodoo, Ungarisher Voodoo

והיה, כאשר ירים משה ידו--וגבר ישראל . . ." (שמות יז,יא), וכי ידיו של משה עושות מלחמה או ידיו שוברות מלחמה: אלא כל זמן שהיו ישראל מסתכלין כלפי מעלן, ומכוונין את ליבם לאביהם שבשמיים--היו מתגברין; ואם לאו, היו נופלים. כיוצא בדבר אתה אומר "ויאמר ה' אל משה, עשה לך שרף . . ." (במדבר כא,ח), וכי הנחש ממית ומחיה: אלא כל זמן שישראל מסתכלין כלפי מעלן, ומשעבדין את ליבם לאביהם שבשמיים--היו מתרפאין; ואם לאו, היו נימוקים.

Josh said...

Maybe it depends on what area of Torah you are proficient in.
If someone does Halakha in the YU beis midrash or even Lakewood, it seems he cannot do any miracles except maybe utilizing laavod or gud achis.
If you learn Rashash all day in Bet El then you might be more able to perform miracles.

Anonymous said...

nebach what a bunch of helpless fools we have here mocking fartzatishe tzadikim!

Anonymous said...

bobov chusid said...
I did not see that in the sefer, The Marshag who was the sharpest mind in Hungary, maybe not as a posek as the Levushie Mordechai,but a much bigger charif and a very straight shooter,

he held very high of Reb Yeshayle, Reb Yeshayele himself had son in laws great talmidie chachomim.I believe Klal Yisroel has a better shmek on a Tzadik then Gedolim, their Neshoma is a lot more behisgalus to a neshoma kelolis. To come in 2011 and say the Chortkover vort on the holy Krestirer, is Tipshes Vegasus ruach.

Anonymous said...

The Ohr Hacahim Hakadosh writes there are 600 madregoth from a simple man to the one that have Ruach Hakodesh.

In my humble opinion - I think that he means these are the levels connection to Ribono Shel Olam. not necessarily the amount of Torah knowledge a person had acquired.

(Of course learning Torah makes this Kesher easier to achieve as we can recognize the gadlut of the Boreh from his words ....)

A Ydene

Anonymous said...

I once was told that when he was young people would say during Yekum Purkoon while pointing to him "Zaaru Taflu un-shaya"

l said...

As I have said before to be a manhig you do not have to be a gaon of course you have to be proficient in halacha but not a gaon. When I said that "er hot zich geplogt of a toisfes" I did not mean that he was a am h'oratz ch"v just that he wasn't a gaon. there are plenty of tzadikkim that were never seen with a open sefer yet when it came to tshuvos they were full of g'oines. Every rebbi has something unique that you can learn from them. With rav shaya'la it was his "avode" but does not mean that he wan ignorant in torah.

Anonymous said...

If to be a rebbe you must be a scholar you might as well pack up the whole chasidus and call it a day. For a start chasidus would never have taken off if rebbes had to be talmidei chachomim starting at the bal shem and work you way down. Yes they'll always find exceptions but Ruzin, R' Sroltshe and his children would be out, Tshernobil and its many offshoots would be out with the possible exception of the ME himslef, Ger and Lubavitch would be in though I'm not too sure if all the Rebbes would qualify, Bobov and Viznitz would be out, and Belz probably in. As for Satmar, well, if you could that scholarship vos iz noch do tsi redn?

Wonderman said...

There are so many similarities with the catholic/orthodox church that it makes one ponder what is special about us

mofsim /miracles
icons / rebbe pictures
lighting candles b'chllal in honour of saint/tazaddik
lighting candles for 40 days and putting ads mentioning R'Mendele Rimonover or lehavdil St-Jude
saints/rebbes - intercede
kohanim going into ohel of tzaddikim
saint/rebbe worship
papal infallibility/daas torah

LkwdGuy said...


While you are at it, you may as well quote the Rambam in yesodei hatorah perek ches.

But this olam knows better.

Note: I said nothing about the person being discussed. I know very little about him. My comments here, and in the previous post (the one that seemed to get some commenter all bent out of shape) are questioning what there is to gain from mofsim books. If someone can explain it in a coherent manner I would be much obliged.

yoske said...

there does seem to be a lot of similarities
we both believe in G-d
we both believe that there are such a thing as holy people
we both believe holy people are closer to G-d
we also both wear pants
we're kimat a christian religion

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

we also both wear pants
and we put them on one leg at a time too!

Anonymous said...

Anon 10.52
"If to be a rebbe you must be a scholar you might as well pack up the whole chasidus and call it a day"
what kind of talk is this, How can you say a fact that all this Rebbes did not know how to learn, one of the pillars of chassidus was to learn but no one should realize it, Hakodesh Reb Moshele Boyaner of Cracow, was a famous lamdan and wrote and printed in many torah journals He used to say that I was pushed to be the official lamdan, the world should not think that our family are Am Aratzim, the Boyaner Rebbe of New yorker was sitting in his room from morning to night by a simple Talmud Bavli, I heard from many non chasidim testify to that.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10;52
"Viznitz would be out"
U R ignorant,
the 2 brothers Reb Srulche Visnitzerr was famous to be a big Talmud chochem and masmid, there is even left some nigleh from him printed lately in some Kovtzim , His brother the Ataniar Rebbe was a Goan Mefursam there is a printed sefer from him,
Reb Mendel Vishever was a Goan Olem,
I don't know much about the earlier generation

Anonymous said...

"starting at the bal shem and work you way down."
the Lubavicher Rebbe writes in a letter to someone, that questioned the Besht's nigleh, that he can not Imagine the Baal haShulchan Orech Horav would be a chosid of a Rebbe that knows no Nigleh, The Rav was just a few years apart and he should know good the details of the Besht.

myhumbleopinion said...

There is a famous line said by R’ Saul Brach the Kashoer rav, he said concerning what his rabbi - the Chasam Sofer – writes:

“One can get to Riach Hakodesh thru “Torah” and “Avodeh”, but i don’t know about any other way”

So R’ Saul Brach said “if only my rabbi know R’ shieleh, he would see a yid that came to Riach Hakodesh thru Gemilas Chasudim!!!

Anonymous said...

To Anon bringing a raye from what the Lubavitcher Rebbe said proves no more than the Rebbe said it, if that.

R' Ahron Belzer had the Tshebiner Rov and R' Shie Mendel Erenberg and other gevaldike talmidei chachomim as chasidim. They didn't come to him for his nigle dos iz ziche.

As to Vizhnitz, Reb Chaim Meirel hot epes gekent? Whom are you kidding?

But these are all besides the point. Chasides is predicated on the principle that rachmone libo boye and you don't need to be a talmid chochem to be close to hashem so what is there to complain about? You can't have it both ways.

The gite yidden like r' meirel premishlaner, r' moishe leib sassover and many many others were not renown for their learning and for good reason. As for what they didn't reveal you know no more of that than I do.

Anonymous said...


Explain me is avoida different then Gemilus chasodim?

R'SB Brach was not a talmid of the CS

Anonymous said...

"As to Vizhnitz, Reb Chaim Meirel hot epes gekent? Whom are you kidding?"
was he a ruv in Vilechovitz?
Did he get semicha of the Marsham?
do you know he had a yeshiva in Vilechovitz and gave Shiurim there? You shmek like a Willi Tinuk Shenishba.

Anonymous said...

"The gite yidden like r' meirel premishlaner, r' moishe leib sassover"
Reb Moshe lieb has even chidushim in Nigleh,Please start getting your facts together before you talk, don't be a stupid shmiesser.

Anonymous said...

"To Anon bringing a raye from what the Lubavitcher Rebbe said proves no more than the Rebbe said it, if that."
I am not getting it... what are you saying?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Perhaps you can cite some sources for the 'chidishim' of R'ML Sassover so that I can check them out. Having seen many chasidishe chidishim in my life I'm not about to take anyone's word for it.

As for Viznitz et al, you are right I don't know the detailed history. What I do know is that they had no shilchon oruch horav, no avnei neizer and no sfath emeth. A shier to some bochurimlech would still be no match for his supposed tzidkes, smiche from the marsham may be the result of knowing some bosor becholov and iser v'heter and vilechowitz is hardly an ir vo'eim. Mamesh wow!

And even if I'm wrong on some of my examples no one has refuted my point on Tshernobel, Ruzin, Bobov and R' Meierel so I rest my case.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the inferiority complex is again raising it's ugly head. Chassidim are feeling left behind again.

Anonymous said...

For Sassev look for Chidushie Remal on Masectes veSugyos, printed by the old Strizhever years ago

Anonymous said...

I am not here to say that he was the Sochechover or Reb Mier Arik, but they were all nice Talmidie Chachomim, Vehoiker they were Ovdie hashem, that is what matters, by chasidim they were very makpid it should not be Chochmose Meribe Mimasouv.

Anonymous said...

"by chasidim they were very makpid it should not be Chochmose Meribe Mimasouv."

So the kept chocmosoi to a minimum and so they were never oiver.

grainom said...
zain a shoita is nisht ken chidish

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"grainom said...
zain a shoita is nisht ken chidish"

Honestly, a Christian missonary paper's translation of an article from an anti-frum German-Jewish newspaper?!

What is your point?

myhumbleopinion said...

anon 4:09

“Avoida” is usually understood to mean “tefilah”

And your right, my mistake I meant the “Mharam shik”, who in turn was a talmid of the Chasam Sofer.

Anonymous said...

"Having seen many chasidishe chidishim in my life I'm not about to take anyone's word for it"
can you share your list of disappointments of chassidic chidushim?

Anonymous said...

The Imrei Chayim of Viznitz used to send his son-the present Rebbe-to ask all sheilos from the Chazon Ish. The latter ZTZ"L said that he could see from these sheilos, that the Imrei Chaim is a Gaon.