Egypt is on the brink. Mubarak may be out of there by the end of Sunday, and G-d knows who steps in. The Muslim Brotherhood seems like they have a good shot. Now I never claimed to be an expert in foreign affairs, but one thing I do know: That the Rebbe - the Lubavitcher Rebbe, זי"ע, - spoke countless times about how dangerous the Peace Process is, even with "friendly" regimes like Egypt and Jordan, secular regimes, that is. Now I know that every man, woman and child in Israel considers themself worthy of being PM in Israel, and I know that they think that they know better than a man in Brooklyn because of the last 30 years - where it's been quiet on the Egyptian border ever since the Camp Davis Accords, but I think some of the עיני העדה can see a bit further down the road. Without using too much of the Rebbe credentials, we can easily agree that the Rebbe knew his military strategy and history, and was as good a Sociologist as a 21 year old who graduated from TAU. Having said that; can we agree that giving all that land, the whole Sinai (as well as Gaza, that was Egyptian pre-1967) to Egypt in return for a promise that a new regime would use as אשר יצר פאפיר, is now a terrible idea?
Lebanon = Hizbullah
Gaza = Hamas
Egypt = Muslim Brotherhood
Is this what they asked for when they withdrew for all that territory?
(AP Photos)
47 comments:
these "peace treaties" did buy many years of much-needed relative calm and stability.
Its easy to live in Bklyn and have "metzudosoi prusah B'Kiryah".
The same amount of years their was calm with Sirya, without returning the Golan Heights,I guess Chabad has no right to say "I Told You So"
not on Giur Kehalocha and not on Land for Peace.
anonymous 2 hut mechaven geven tzum emes
why give them all that land and resources when you could just scare them into peace, like Syria?
"Its easy to live in Bklyn and have "metzudosoi prusah B'Kiryah".
You believe the Rebbe was casual about Jewish Blood because his skin was saved.He has more chasidim in Eretz then the Belzer Rov,and in NY he was the only Rebbe that did not desert a Jewish Neighborhood when all Rebbes and Rabonim were running like "Dershrokene Hoozlech". He was laughed off by every Pragmatic Jew as a fanatic, but he stayed put.
The was another Rabbi who after the six-day war called to return every inch of captured land, because ultimately it will go back in some form or other. Will you tzig be screaming 'we told you so' when in a short while all the nation of the world, force Israel to give it all back to a future Pali state? Don't you think it's at this point that we don't have settlements in sinai that would've otherwise served as an immediate catalyst for the muslim brotherhood government to start a war with israel?
I think we can all agree that the mere existence of Israel is what irks these groups, not "settlements"
Besides, why would I agree, just because they gave land? I don't get? what does that prove?
"I think we can all agree that the mere existence of Israel is what irks these groups, not "settlements""
Yes, but had there been settlement in eygpt at this very moment, it would be a complete disaster for israel. They absolutely should've given gaza back too as part of the camp david accords, look what a mess they have now in gaza.
Again it's a matter of time before the world powers force israel to return of of the west bank including east j'lem. to me, the einei haeidah are the ones who called for giving it all back in '67.
nebach on you
It isn't in the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood yet.
It would be nice if the Rebbe was proven right.
It would be even nicer if he wasn't in this regard.
yes, rebbetzin
I agree with the last line...
Hirshele, you are right. You are not an expert in foreign affairs. The Muslim brotherhood would not start a war with Israel if they would come to power, which they will not. Remember who told you first.
what was the rebbes opinion on the riot in crown heights
did he see it coming
did he offer a peace treaty with his neigbores
you are full of it
Anon
"what was the rebbes opinion on the riot in crown heights "
that make peace with your Neighbors and do not give back a inch, as he would like it should happen In Artzeini Hakdosha.
Put these words you so neatly write regarding moshiach and start doing your shlichus
Actually, a 21 year old would just be *starting* TAU. At 21 he is just finishing his three years of risking his life defending klal Yisroel.
or he could be a "conscientious objector" who doesn't wanna serve in the Occupying army...
Tzig 2 things:1-If you are ready to admit the point that there has been quiet for the last 30 years because of the peace treaty and that has saved countless yiddishe lives then im not sure you are allowed to make a cheshbon 30 years down the line. "Chayei shouh doiche".2-Pleas be honest was the rebbes reasoning beacause 30 years down the line the muslim brotherhood would come into power,or was his problem with giving up land in eretz yisroel period.I always understood it too be the latter!
Off course the simple reasoning to make peace with Egypt was the right choice.It bought us more than 30 years of quiet.Anyone who knows history knows that the yom kippur war was almost lost.Would the IDF be able to take so many casualties in another war, without tearing the social fabric apart,(remember the frimeh don't serve in the army and this would've caused an unbelievable schism in Israeli society) for example? What about the terrible demoralization caused by war?Do you not think that huge number would have left for America AND eUROPE?
Additionally, the reason that there was no major war with Syria was BECAUSE of the peace with Egypt.The Syrians were scared that they could not take on the IDF alone without a second front in the south.
Chosidlite
the Rebbe BH spoke clear, he spoke about Pikuech Nefesh, Siman Shien Chof Tes. What makes you think that he did not think down the road. Who do you think killed Sadat? some secular movie producer of Alexandria? or some fanatic soldier with ties to extreme groups?
the satmar rebbi did not say to return the captuered terretory..only it will be returned...!
The peace treaty between Egypt and Israel gave Israel a mostly-demilitarised Sinai. It isn't just that Israel has had peace; if Egypt was planning an attack they would have to move troops into the Sinai Peninsula, breaking the treaty and giving Israel more notice of the attack. As for the suggestion that Israel just needs to scare the Egyptians into peace - that didn't work for the Six Day War, the Yom Kippur War, or the War of Attrition.
Finally, the suggestion that Israel should have given Gaza to the Egyptians - Israel tried; Egypt didn't want it.
Hirshel,
Please explain how people can debate you and your fellow Lubavitchers over the issue of peace with Egypt.After all you are stating the Rebbes opinion and Lubavitchers will always agree with him.What do you expect any poster to say here that could convince you?
If you remember, once you had a discussion on the Golem of Prague.Basically everyone agrees that it is not a factual account.Lubavitchers say it is true because the Rebbe backed it up.I"m not telling you argue with your rebbe, just not understanding how you expect to "debate" this issue:Whatever anyone will say you"ll just say the Rebbe disagreed, how can there be an intellectual exchange here?
unfortunately, the view from kan tziva, doesn't see that we are still kivsa achas bein shivim zevim. gotta wonder if thats why the 'pogrom' was sent as a reminder.
yehoshua
hoe does anybody debate anybody else that has a very strong opinion about any issue? especially one that he heard from his rebbe?
When all real wealth has been stolen, stashed away and wasted by the rich and financially savvy who do not care about the masses, just turn China into a huge slave factory, and ship jobs overseas, like the French kings and the Russian Czars abused their people, the modern Capitalists and the big unions alike abuse the ordinary citizens of democracies;
When there are no central EU banks and Germany to print money to bail out countries, like Greece and Ireland got bailed out by the EU in Europe;
and you don't have a fancy currency like the US dollar and a federal reserve bank like in the USA to bail out banks, companies and programs;
and you don't have lots of petroleum oil to buy everyone off like in Libya, Saudi Arabia and Iran,
then prepare to meet your doom as the people take to the streets and riot and topple stubborn dictators and selfish regimes alike because they possess nothing and they have nothing to lose!
This ain't gonna be pretty, as more countries are going to go down the tubes...וַתִּשָּׁחֵת הָאָרֶץ, לִפְנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים; וַתִּמָּלֵא הָאָרֶץ, חָמָס.
The Rebbe was always right.
Nu, nu
I guess eventually we"ll realize why there was no new rebbe appointed and why Lubavitch is in a mess...
Infallible.
About Egypt btw he was totally wrong.
Same about forcing people to stay in CH.Everywhere else people moved.
CH in a dangerous ghetto
Sruly
and your foreign policy and urban planning credentials come from which cheder?
"and your foreign policy and urban planning credentials come from which cheder?"
Since you asked, may I ask you something in turn?
The Rebbes foreign policy:From where??
My foreign policy are the facts and they stand for themselves.Israel has had calm on it's Southern border for more than 33 years.Probably way before your entrance to "oilem hazeh".
Funny thing is that you of all people, who once lived in the CH ghetto, ran away!
Yet you ask about my credentials.
Let me guess:CH is such a great place that's why Monsey is gettingbombarded by refugee Lubavitchers.
Helf mech tsi farsheyen.
my entry to Olam HaZeh was way before that, I even remember it vaguely, but that's beside the point even if you'd like to drag it in here
I guess all those generals and politicians should've detoured to Sruly's house instead of 770...
I did not run away. people move without "running away."
Crown Heights is very expensive if you're a young couple trying to buy a home, so they come to Monsey
I guess all those BP and FB kids running to Lkwd are "running away" too? is BP a ghetto?
"I guess all those generals and politicians should've detoured to Sruly's house instead of 770..."
ALL those generals agreed with the peace process.Including people who did not preach from (the relative)peace in a Brooklyn ghetto.
The generals were dragged kicking and screaming for the photo op in CH by chasidim.They had no interest to visit
"I guess all those BP and FB kids running to Lkwd are "running away" too? is BP a ghetto?"
So, you never listened to Gershon Neumans shiur? You never learned to "understand" a blatt gemureh?
How can you compare the attitude of the non Lubavitcher world towards BP and Flatbush?Did they call these places all those grandiose names such as "kahn tzivo"? Or their shuls as "gan eden hatachon/elyon"???
If anything they are moving BECAUSE Lakewood is their Ihr Hatorah.
You preydig but actually made a nice " bo'i beshulem pleitah"
As I said:Nu, nu.Count me as one of those underwhelmed by the greatness
I guess they told you that when the chains on their feet were undone, right?
They ran to Sruly to unwind and then told him all that they know...
"Crown Heights is very expensive "
Section 8 is sooo expensive?
It's not expensive
Trying to "win" using sarcasm?
Uh, huh ....
Try winning based on your OWN arguments.Not "the rebbe said"
no, not section 8, buying a house, on your own name!
Trust me, there are those that do it the right way, they buy their own homes and cars!
Ya gotta trust me on this, even if NOBODY you know does it...
I wish you luck as being one of the few BP's using their own name and actually working hard.
And this is not meant as an insult
Anyway someone already said that there is nothing to debate with Lubavitchers.They have all the answers and they always have the winning card :The Rebbe said!
You can never argue with them, either in the case of a nice guy, who's feelings you don't want to hurt or the case of a nasty violent Lubavitcher in case they start fighting with you.
So just letting you on to a small secret:Most thinking people don't care what was said by whom.It does not win any arguments.
"kablu da'ati"
Sorry not here!!!!!
I"m a Lubavitcher who lives in Lakewood.We have a Bais Chabad and it is a good place to live in.Helps that my job is in S.Jersey
Sruly
"Same about forcing people to stay in CH.Everywhere else people moved.
CH in a dangerous ghetto"
you think that people should start leaving Willi to Canarsie because of the 2 Yungeliet that were almost beaten and stabbed to death? it happened in less then 4 months apart. You think that people should leave Willi because of the new rule of the NYC housing Authority that every Jew that leaves the Public housing gets replaced by a Homeless family? and we are talking about 1000 of units.You think that every jewish family should leave the Housing units beacause of the bad influence on kids, used condoms in the stairwells, hallways and elevators.You think Willi should be deserted because of the 1000's of blonde (Artisten) shikses are invading the streets?Should they all leave and sell Rodney For Evangelicals 13 Hooper, for 7 day adventist And Pupa for a Mosque.And the Mikvehs for Baptist pools
Sruly
"Anyway someone already said "
Wow,that someone was a genius, is he still alive?
Sruly
"Most thinking people don't care what was said by whom.It does not win any arguments."
who certified as the"Thinking" person?
One thing is definite, even if the Rebbe was right, this has not proven his point. The debate is still on: Rav Shach saying that the Rebbe has goyishe deios, or the Rebbe saying that he knows best, starting and finishing from a se'if in Shukchan aruch. (The Maharsha calls people who pasken from Shulchan Aruch Mevalei Oilam)
Anon
"The Maharsha calls people who pasken from Shulchan Aruch Mevalei Oilam"
do you have a Ruv today that does not pasken from the Shulchan Orech? maybe Rav Abadi from Lakewood,
is your background frum? you talk like a guy who just came off from some Aish hatorah bandwagon
I meant paskening just from Shulchan Aruch without understanding the underlying logic. A simple iyun on that se'if in hilchos Shabos would prove easily why the Rebbe had no proof from there. I suspect even the Rebbe knew he was pulling the wool on people's eyes and used that se'if as a smach like drush. His real point was his extreme belief that the tough approach (lechatchila ariber) was the one that would work.
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