then I received this via email: (with minimal additions by yours truly)
"The Belzer Rebbe and his mouth piece are on a full fledged war against Mevakshim that are not satisfied in Belz. As usual they're saying that it's a disease in many chassidesen that people look elsewhere. It's shocking the way things that used to be unofficial talk (and were discussed in private - "pnimi") are now officially discussed in the Zietungen. The "Hamevaser" covers this new jive with pages upon pages of coverage. Pinchas Friedman - the unofficial spokesman for the Belzer Rov - spoke about it at the jubilee of the hatzola of the Belzer Rov zt"l and his brother the Bilgorajer Rov (9 Shvat.) The Belzer Ruv first gave the pep talk with his childish observations with very little Torah, he creates a "kedushas Belz" that is hot air, He says things like "the Yoshvim were mafkir themselves, their families, and gave away their nefesh for Belz." What kind of a lie is that? They gave away their life for torah and kedusha that they believed they found in Belz, they were chasidim of the Belzer Rebbe that they believed is the Tzadik Hador, but this lie of the name "Belz!" it's all brainwashing the people so that they stick around with him and his son, a certified "nobody in all fields." He finished it off saying that we have to chazer that again and again; the whole year, we have strive and work for that, and ask Hashem for Kedushas Belz. He claims that the Belzer Derech is not a lot of going to the Mikvah, no Tehilim, no Fasting.
Pinchas Friedman claims as follows: after the Belzer kingdom was rebuilt after the war, the Yetzer Hora does not stop, he's not happy seeing that the great Belz has been rebuilt. He tries to confuse the people with thoughts that you are not respected enough in your current place, and all kind of thoughts and Nisyones about where he currently is, so that he thinks about other places. This is all so that the Yetzer Horah can destroy Belz. All that is atzas haYetzer, Friedman says. The Baal shem tov came on this world that people should be affiliated with a Kehila and a Chotzer. From my experience - he says - in education, I can say that I personally know people that left their Kehillos for other places and got confused, it is not only when the leave Belz it is also in other places too. It's interesting to note that Pinchas Friedman learned in Krasne Boro Park and left that structure to a new place called Belz, but he can't see other people leaving where they grew up to go elsewhere. Also how come all these 100's of Pupener Talmidim left Pupa for Belz; is this only a 1 way street? Are you only allowed to leave to Belz, but not FROM? why can't Kluger create a chabura and a kehila?
Sorry for my long rant, but I can not take this big farce that Belz has become."
See the Friedman interview Here
137 comments:
Lol
Jingle Belz is again on the warpath!
I"m not sure why you allow personal below the belt attacks,btw
I am actually a big fan of The Belzer Rebbe.He has rebuilt a chasidic hoyf back to it's days of splendor.
He is his own man a kliger yid, a talmid chuchem and has a very rational stance on the peace process.
Additionally Belz has many big talmidei chachumim and I love their various Torah publications.
I am not and never was a Belzer
all good and well, so why then be so insecure?!
I agree that this insecurity smacks of the Chabad obsession of not going to other gitteh yidden but I"m surprised that you as a Chabdsker would find this strange.
I like many aspects about Belz,I don't think perfection exists, not "even" by Lubavitch.
Btw, who was Vaishoiz??
Yanel/Yankel
This was not me.
There are many other possible suspects. Any semi-intelligent person could have written this.
Tzig, frankly I'm surprised that you post such raw loshon horah; es past dir nisht. A bissel Yiras Shomayim v'Yiras Cheit, please!
which part was LH, Kurkevan?
Hirshel,
We know your dislike for Belz and Skver is intense.Borders on obsessive.
Why can't you at least be honest and tell us why you hate the Belzer so much?
Simply because he was the only rebbe to get get a mishebeirach in an unguarded moment in Gan Eden Hatachton (or was it Haelyon?)
> which part was LH, Kurkevan?
The unflattering observations in the email you quoted. Entirely uncalled for, regardless of how true he (or you) believe they are.
Very easy to figure out why Tzig hates Belz.
Zeh leumas zeh:
Belz=Live and kicking rebbe
Chabad= .....
Chabad": Geshnitzteh berd, major off the d youth,minis,jeans,long shaitels,Meshichisten and meshiguim
Belz=eideleh, feineh chasidishe yingelait with equally fine ezer kenegdom
Belz=most beuatiful shil in Yerusholyim or the world
Chabad: meshichist zoo.
Ni, vus vilt ihr fin ehm? Ehr gait araus fin kinneh, spezial az ehr is bichlal an imfarginner
In the book "The Rebbe" he was quoted as saying just the opposite — we are off the derech, the torah is sitting on the shelf in the seforim hakedoshim.
"Inz huben a "shvil" " Zai huben a rebbe.
"Inz huben "Iggress" " Zei hubben a rebbe.
Here's a question for the olam:
Why are there no disgruntled former Lubavitchers in Breslov or Toldos Aron or for that matter in Belz or Ger? No Lubavitcher ever wonders what it might be like to be a chosid of a different Chassidus? There obviously are plenty of Ungarishe and Yerushalmis in Lubavitch. What gives?
booooo, tzig.
Pardon my ignorance, but what's the roshei teivos in the scan about the GrA: ח"ר.
(Possibly cherem rabboni?)
Thanks for clarification.
klainer
1) there are no "disgruntled" Lubavitchers
2) even if they are you think they'd go elsewhere after having been in Lubavitch??
The belz commentary is right on
Klainer
you forgot your pet subject, Lubavich is frieing out
Anon
"Inz huben a "shvil" " Zai huben a rebbe.
"Inz huben "Iggress" " Zei hubben a rebbe.
"
If this means a Rebbe you never saw or understood a Rebbe
43rd
"Belz=Live and kicking rebbe"
you are 100% correct the guy knows how to kick
The Belzer's real problem is that he is not respected by most of the senior chassidim in Belz. The best he can hope for is to build a base with the yingeleit. Alas, he doesn't have the personality of his father, and obviously not much of anything from his holy uncle the tzadik R'A zy"a. So he compensates by fundraising very well, and building impressive buildings. But that is not enough for the young chasidim today, many of them are searching for the fire in torah and chassides, and if they don't find it in Belz they will go somewhere else (most will end up with R' Tsvi Meir).
With the Belzer's political blunders still on the wall to haunt him, he won't get any sympathy from the other kreizen, and so it goes....
in the Belzers blessing on the wall he uses the word "Techoifef"
is this used in all letters of old Belzer Rebbes?
his whole pseudo inteligence is so juvenile its about time he should of grown up already, on 1 hand he still goes with the Shtriken on the shirt, but on the other hand he introduced new words in to the belzer nussach. All other chasidim (that are not as sophisticated) try to collect whatever they can found on their nusach from their earlier Rebbes. In Belz that 50% of its claim to fame, was their rigid style on Minhogim (1 of the reasons the Uberlander Yiden Loved Belz) he decided with his great genious and wisdom in Dikduk (since Reb Volf Hiedenhiem )to change. It is laughable the way the belzer baal tefilahs daven for the Amud with the old belzer nussach coivoluted with the neo diduk craze, it is Goel Nefesh,Is the Shtrik on his Shirt more important then a chassidic Nussach Hatfila? or the way the "Russel" was made more important then a chassidic Nussach Hatefila? what exactly ticks him off from the old Belz? Can some Belzologist explain the great Rebbe of the greatest Shul on earth?
they still make shirts like that, or are they custom made?
he and Yitzchok Lebovitz of Woodridge have this shirt, I was told by insiders that the Burshtiner has it too,
I would think that the Horowitz's in BP, the ones that wear the high, old fashioned vests, would wear it too, no?
Can anybody order them, or do you need to show Rebbishe credentials?
You have to be 10 doirois a Noter haBris, my question is how do you proof it for Kesser or Royal clothing? I guess we laymen dont know the inner secrets. As someone told me why are the gedolim so obssesed with little LIPA? they make his as the new Berliner Mendelsohn(Lipa probably never heard of Mendelsohn, unless he ate Mendelsohn Pizza)The reason, he was mechalel the rebbishe Bigdie T zivonin by exposing it by the circus.He is killing a thriving industry.
tzig, isn't R meyers (former ab'd hague), a lubavitcher, who has joined belz?
ANON 6:48
Entertainingly written.
It looks like they are preparing the grounds for the second-in-command to step up, and they know that he has got quite a low fanbase, so they try at least to bluff the masses, by making them belive in a myth called "Belz" so even if the future leader has got no caliber, they should still feel good belonging in this group, the same way -lehavdil- kim jong has been grooming his son for the last few years, it is all about brand awarness.
Anon
but you think he is building a Nuke Facility in the deep basement of the greatest Shul on earth
what does techofef mean?
Its a big shame, Belz used to be the most respected chasidus with the most reverd rebbes, desertion in pre war belz was unheard of, and all what the spin doctor Freidman has to say is, if you will leave it wont be good for your children, what a cheap shot! is that what chasidus is all about, having a good social club? sorry, they are cheaper golf clubs down the road where is the search for some penimmius?
"t'chofef" means "shall cover and protect" See Rashi in V'zos Habracha dibbur hamaschil "chofef." I think the binyan is done incorrectly, though.
A blog that was started to respond to Chabad bashing has now turned itself into a blog whose real purpose is to bash belz, Chaim Berlin etc.
Dr.Shtekel would have an explaination for this behavior, I would sya its just good old fashioned sinah and kinoh.
You still can;t forgive the rav for standing by rav Shach can you ?
"It looks like they are preparing the grounds for the second-in-command to step up,"
The Belzer Rebbe has many more years to lead, there are no "preparations" here.
"desertion in pre war belz was unheard of"
untrue
No disgruntled Lubavitcher are we real here how about Havlins, Hillman, were all of the Noe children Chabad people ? Sholom Ber Schneerson, Eliyahu Chaim Carlebach, and a host of others (besides dozens of people who were not mekabel the Dor shvii from the the start such as hagaon rav Yakov Landau who was mekusher to the Husyatner rebbe)).) You mean no Lubavitcher BT has ever left , in fact many are to be found in Braslev and lehavdil in the clubs and bars of the US.. Let me try answering the question. Most Lubavitchers when disgruntled are so out of it that no other brand of frumkayt is even shayech.
A good shave and a pair of jeanim does the trick better than a visit to G&G.
In the end of days and they are rapidly approaching as promised by the Rebbe the only frum Lubavitchers left will be the Hungarians because they know how to read the situation and how to ....
Is there a way to print this?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/47478012/%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A9%D7%A8-%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%AA-%D7%99%D7%AA%D7%A8%D7%95-%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%A2-%D7%90-%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%97%D7%94-%D7%A2%D7%9D-%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%91-%D7%A4%D7%A0%D7%97%D7%A1-%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%93%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9F?secret_password=1yn7k4tkiqp2m7e3o33d
Peoria 4,922 miles from Bilgoraj
Hirshel
Excellent answers to my question about disgruntled Lubavitchers. I finally understand...
How about a real in-depth review of the book about R. Avrohom Mayorer?It's an important work about an amoliker chosid and would be of great interest to the readers of the blog.
Now I'm off to Bloomingdale's to pick up a dozen Belzer shirts mit shtriken.
"In the end of days and they are rapidly approaching as promised by the Rebbe the only frum Lubavitchers left will be the Hungarians because they know how to read the situation and how to ...."
Makes sense.Hungarians have taken over from the yekkes as the Jews with the lowest iq's
Anony:12:18 Concerning the matter of the three dots...
Bnei Toyreh want you to learn pshat,give shiur,
and talk out the meaning of the three pintelech at the end of your comment.
Anon
"A blog that was started to respond to Chabad bashing"
I dont see it in the Masthead that these is the official purpose of the site
Anon
"Havlins,"
where are the Havlins today?
check out the Rav of Kiryat Gat and the 770 of Ramat Shloma
havlin left because he wasn't allowed to steal the mosad Toras Emes from the Rebbe. hardly what you call "disgruntled."
Anon
"hagaon rav Yakov Landau who was mekusher to the Husyatner rebbe)"
I think that Rav Landau was no dor hashishi chosid neither,Going to the Husyatener for a Mofes does not make you a Mekusher, He was Mekusher to the Rebbe Reshab to the day of his petira,In the era of the Tzemach Tzedek many chabad chasidim went to the Viledniker for mofsim.Chabads forte was not Mofsim.
havlin left because he was a official mossur and tried to arrest all his dor hashishi buddies,
"Most Lubavitchers when disgruntled are so out of it that no other brand of frumkayt is even shayech."
Most Aronim, Zalonim when disgruntled, become Reb Arelech, Correct?
Most Lakewood boys and girls when disgruntled,become Brisker correct?
Anon,
"You still can;t forgive the rav for standing by rav Shach can you ?"
Our great immature Rebbe eventualy realized himself the Rav Shach was not his buddy and "Kevoid Atzmoi Doiresh", he left the party after less then a year. He also realized that the Benai Berak cabal are not only Chabad haters, they hate Belz, Berdichev,Lizensk too. As they realized with the holy book Hagoan that was written under the guidance of the Maran of all the Marans.
R' Hirshl, iker choser min haseifer so let me fill you in. Of late the ruv has been winding down his personal commitments. AM now does sider kidushin and tfilin leygn and it has become very difficult arantsigein tsim ruv. Naturally there have been some murmurings and it was to address these and in anticipation of more that Friedman addressed his speech.
The ruv is still in his elements as indicated by his own supposedly landmark speech about 'cold peace' and some of the other issues that occupy his mind these days. However it appears that he has lost the appetite to govern and is more interested in becoming the elder statesman he so craves to be but which to date has eluded him.
Of course, the recent incident of yingerleit being attracted to other factions is not helping matters and they are trying to quell it before it becomes a serious issue. But Friedman's language is not new and although it hasn't been used for some time so openly similar themes have been raised at internal shabbatonim for yingerleit when questions of this nature are encouraged and answer given in similar vein.
It is noteworthy that no effort was made to promote AM in any way. They appear to be smart enough to see from other chasidusn the danger of bing 'moirish nechosim bechayov'.
@ Anon 10.49 who wrote this trash:
"desertion in pre war belz was unheard of"
You obviously know little of Belzer history. R' Yisochor Ber himself had a daughter and the greatest yoshvim had sons and daughters who left the fold. Belz was indeed more extreme, not far off from Skver nowadays though much smarter, but that didn't stop the rot as it is not stopping it in Skver today.
Are you guys real , do you want the Belzer Rav to allow and encourage his kehillo to fall apart ?
Does any rebbe be it the Skverer,Popa Gerer or Satmarer want talmidim to leave ?
Did not the Lubavitcher rebbe constantly talk about hiskashruth to the Nasi hador, what was that about ?
Would you like Horav Pinchos Friedman to tell the yungeleit in Belz to see what Braslov is about and go to Uman to read the Piasetzner seforim and check out the Old Polish chasiduth,, to check out Chabad , to go to tischen at Machnovka,or Ashlag,or maybe Darag ; maybe give the Poper a try,maybe even give Ponyvesz a try, and if all fails stay in Belz.
Do the Lubavitcher Hungarians think that if the Belzer let his guys go free , they would all join up Lubavitch ?
"they would all join up Lubavitch ?"
maybe Lubavich? but Kluger for sure
Gevezener,
he is already a Bo Beshonim and still not comfortable in his skin, he constantly wants to be, now he is runing after Elieshev, years ago he went to Sharabi... so on and on he goes
Gevezne
I did not mean to say that there were no rotten apples in Belz, I know all about feivel hivnever and the other yoshvim kids which went astray, also I know the history of the Rebetzin Henele, Communism and being poor was the main cause, and in the women's case, it was total ignorance of yiddeshkeit, I meant that no one exchanged Belz for a different sect (besides maybe a few young boys who fell for Bobov, which offered more glitz and action) and Belz was full of brilliant minds and witty brains, and it was not as if the belzer toires was some deep fundamental stuff, however everyone in belz was content with the situation, and were at inner peace with themselves, they all felt very privileged being connected with a tzadig hador.
Today however, for the older generation of Hungarian Holocaust survivors, they glee at the fact that belz has become a global empire, while they remember how Hitler nearly wiped belz of the planet, however the younger generation are very confused, and those which are not downright stupid are simply not impressed with the leader giving his midnight state-of-union speech.
Can't Sec. Clinton intervene in this matter?Dikduk,a shisel mit russell,Litvishe gedolim-sounds serious to me.Justice Goldstone-are you listening?
Is there audio of the midnight state of the union address?
The Amish have "rumspringa", we can have "arimshpringgen".
Sorry Anon, I had misunderstood you. I am however not so sure about the point you are making. The fact 'az men hot farbindn likutei mahran fin beide zeitn' suggests that Breslov had a pull back then too. It was also pre-gloablisation and so the movement between chaidesn was even less than it is today, which is not much.
Belz is in a curious situation in that it exercises tight control albeit indirectly, nothing of the overt skverer bullying, yet is also open to fresh ideas be they crazy or sane.
I think that it is for the moment held together by the strength of the ruv's personality. However, as that wanes with the movement's size and his advancing age its breakup should be one to watch if not relish. I think the traditionalists of the older Belzer school will come out of the woodwork to challenge the Friedmans and others of the current inner circle.
My hunch is that AM will behave in a heavy handed way like any spoilt rotten heir and thus hasten the demise of all his father worked so hard to establish.
yomim yedabeiru.
Actually, we have "arimshpringgen" its called "learning in Israel"
What's all this talk about Belz and Dikduk. Can someone explain? It doesn't sounds like they're very medakdik in dikduk.
gevezener belzer:
farbundn likutei moharan-what's the story?
A lot of great and hilarious comments!
Gevezene
I am not so sure how much of these likutei moharan binding stories are fact or fiction, there where a number of big belzer chasidim who studied breslov, one of them was Reb Sholem Shotzer, who besides stemming from the Belzer dynasty, was also a fiery belzer chosid, and he has a whole perek in his sefer Datth Sholem dedicated on one of the stories of reb Nacman, and although he was an independent thinker, I don't think he would have dwelled on breslov if belz had an issue with it. the second one is even more mind provoking it was the old Faltichaner rebbe, reb elezier twerski, who was both a belzer and a Skvere einkel! and in his sefer peukdats eliezer it is written, that he constantly learned berslov, and he was very close with reb yisschor dov zya, and he totally refuted the Jihad which Skver declared on breslov.
Yes I know that some of the Yoshvim had an attitude problem with anything that was not 100% Belz, but it was not that they were afraid that belzere chasidim will turn up in uman on rosh hashana, in fact both breslov and chabad only campaigned in Poland, I am not aware of any existence of them in Galica, the average Galicyaner did not comprehend this kind of deep stuff, coming shvieth to the rebbe was enough to fill up his spiritual tank.
The present situation by chasiddem has some absurd results, a few weeks ago a totally unheard of offshoot of Spinka, made chassena, and there were thousands of bleachers, don't ask me what, when, and why, and in BP there is a munkatchere rebbe, who in my humble opinion, can beat any rebbe his age, in looks, charisma, lamdan, mekubal, well connected, money, and still fails to appeal to the masses, so I am not sure what is the trick to get you on stage.
Coming back to Belz, ich hob fort belzer blit so I will try be careful when we deal with a belzer einkel, it appears that they are doing everything possible to rewrite history, suddenly there all this peace negotiations, his biggest mistake was that he messed with the wrong guy on the block, he had a perfectly legitimate power struggle with the Eide charides, when he decided to turn it in to a religious campaign, and mocked in public Reb Yolish zya, and according to all historians, this mistake has costed his career, yes, he may have won the battle, but he has lost the war, his name has been besmirched forever, and all this recent damage control will not do much to better his image.
Reb Shulem Shotzer was no Belzer Chosid he was Mekusher to the last 2 Belzer Rebbes,They could have been named Krechnif, he claimed that Reb Aron Belzer was the Tzadik Hador, But I assume he had no Belzer Minhogim and did not prescribe to any of the Belzer Restriction, he was too a open mind, he officially learned Moreh Nevochim, In Belz they didn't learn even Shemona Perokim LehoRambam, Ikrem etc...
But on the old Faltichener it is shocking, he was a total Belzer product, he was breathing Belz 24/7, unless the Stien einiklech had a agenda,I personally don't trust their biography Veda"l
Anon
"his biggest mistake was that he messed with the wrong guy on the block"
the Karliner of Pisgas Zev is much smarter then the Holy Agrifas Rebbe, He got rid of the Kanoim and the yoke of the
Eida Hacharaddis in a smooth fashion with some minor bumps.It is all the fault of his Immature way of life. He took the Rebisteve when the old chasidim told him to wait,but he had no patience and he lost all the chasidim from the old school and replaced them with 95% Hungarians that have no idea what the real Belz looked like.
In the latest ohr hatzfon edition, there is an whole article giving credit to all those who were involved in the rescuing mission of the Belzer rov, they seem to have no problem glorifying Eleizer landau's involvement, although the controversy around this individual is far from a secret (not that I judging anyone in those insane times) however Chaim shlomo Freidman who was the commander-in-chief of the whole operation, has mysteriously been overlooked, just because he dared to differ with the current regime.
I don't know wheter to laugh or to cry, every time they try to feed the masses about the Hatzalah of the "Acim hakdoshim" 30 years ago they would not have dared to make such fools of themselves, by portraying a "Reb elimelch and Reb Zishe" scenario, the Bilgoryer rov was a great personalty, but to try to make him on the same wavelength of the Belzer rov, is simply insulting the intelligence of the reader.
Anon,
"this mistake has costed his career,"
you are over blowing it,he is in business, and it is for the good he is too of a little man for more power
anon, Tues 7:48pm
sorry, I just remembered about your question
Myers did leave Chabad for Belz after 3 Tamuz
Anon
"however Chaim shlomo Freidman who was the commander-in-chief of the whole operation, has mysteriously been overlooked, just because he dared to differ with the current regime."
Chaim Shloma Friedman also pushed the opening of the Yeshivs, it is interesting that his Einiklech are all frum and stable even tough they didnt relieve the special handling that Belz delivers for its members, as the psychological help from Reb Pinchas Friedmans brother, Gam Ato Yochel.
Meyers was always chabad or just passed thru
Yossi
"Meyers was always chabad or just passed thru"
he became a Baal Teshuva in Chabad, but even in Belz he still considers himself a chabadnik, he just likes the Shirt Shtriklech and the Russel.On the other hand who cares about Myers,
Fin a rebe brengt men nisht a raye. Even if you told me stalwarts like the Naroler or the Yavrover rov studied Breslover seforim it hardly proves the position with the gatchelabes. Belz was paranoid of anything that had the slightest whiff of change. They banned nach, rashash, tifereth yisroel, mahritz chajes and a whole range of others. Were they frightened of haskole? Undoubtedly yes. Their fear of Breslov may not have been as intense but it was still banned for a reason. Breslovers were called the toyte chasidim and had drew even then eccentrics and misfits so you can understand why one of the young yoshvim, who were not the most socially skilled at the best of times, could be attracted to Breslov.
The rov has huge issues with history and although the Archion has been gathering material for decades it's only recently that they're releasing some material to Or Hatzofen, itself a response to Machnovke's Or Linsivosi. (See a fantastic letter in this month's OH on an einikel's refusal to wear a Belzer 'bra'.)
However, many other chasidisn have their own kipe shel sherotzim. It's just that the ruv tries to put a modern pseudo-intellectual spin on it with the help of his rabble rousers such as Eichler and Friedman rather than hushing it up as other do.
The 'achim hakdoishim' has been a theme since at least 1984 when they published the nes hatzole with the 'protocols' of the bilgorayer (how they love big words). I think the book was called 'Beis Tzadikim Ya'amod'.
The 'nes' hatzole suits them insofar that R' Ahron chose the Bilgorayer to accompany him to Israel. Of course they gloss over, or deny altogether, the controversial speech in Budapest, ignore some shady connections in the Bochnia Ghetto and in Budapest.
Then again, Satmar ignores Kasztner's role in the rescue of their rebbe, Ger doesn't like discussing why the Beis Yisroel left his wife and kids behind and, dare I say it here, Lubavitch is not exactly candid about what the Rebbe got up to in Paris and Berlin. So there you are. Revisionism and deconstruction zenen nisht kayne chasidisher ma'acholim.
Az men redt shoin fin belz oif a chabadsker site iz verd dermanen R' Chaim Leib Katz of Sederhole, former rov of Belz in Williamsburg, machshir of the BP eiruv who at some time tilted towards chabad. I'm not sure of his current position towards Chabad but he was more or less inched out of Belz, probably due to his independent streak.
Gevezener
"Their fear of Breslov may not have been as intense but it was still banned for a reason."
I believe the Belzer hate to Breslov the Mahrid of Belz brought back from Chernobil, In Galicia their was no anti Breslover movement. I heard from a Ropshitzer Einikel (with no affiliation to Breslev)that the Imrie Noam publicly read another Sipur of Reb Nachmens Sipurie Massois on a weekly basis.
Gevezener
" Eichler and Friedman rather than hushing it up as other do."
these 2 are not involved in the hagiography of the oir hatzofen, it is a total different group,
By the Bies tzadikim Yamoid of the Hatzola they used a pen name Gur Arye? Belz has no such name, who is that writer? as a Gevezener, maybe you know?
Gevezener
Reb Chaim Lieb was never a full fledge Belzer, He was a rosh Kolel in Satmar before he was Ruv in Belz, He is still a Satmarer,Chabadnik,Kashuer and Belzer chosid from the 4 Rebiem. He has no problem to live with this combo
Gevezene
Regarding the letter which you mentioned, the way they are being suspiciously over apologetic, on the ehlickeit of the lady involved, is an eyebrow raiser. Also in the recent publications, they were bragging on, how the Bilgoryer rov went on his last voyage to Europe, as a personal shalich of the Belzer rov to "lift up the spirits" of the Holocaust survivors, something which is not even remotely related to the truth, and is on the border of ridicule, but than again, they were always masters in spin.
Anon
I don't buy in to the Achim Hakedoshim spinmachine, but my father was in Europe then, I heard alot from the visit from him and many of his friends,and it was looked upon as "lift up the spirits" event plus a fund raising tour, you are a little extreme to the other end.
@anon 5.56
They've written previously about the Bilgo's trip to Europe. Other than possible fund raising, what was the true reason?
As to the apologia in the 'bra' footnote, you must give them credit becuase most other chasidisn would never have published it. You must also tip your hat to them for the entire OH project (I know it's not Eichler or Friedman behind it). I know of no other similar publication. Month after month they humanize the rebbes in a way that is completely against the grain of general chareidi publications. They do not dwell exclusively on mofsim and gadluth and simply pass on anecdotes, vignettes, bon mots as given to them. Even the linguistic style is maintained and there is none of the pompous big words chareidim are so fond of.
It is what makes it such a good read month after month. I'm not sure the editors themselves know what they're doing but its effect is bound to spreak and perhaps reduce some of the childish hagiographys we get on every godel. If so kudos to Rebbe Reb Ber.
I've said here before that he has a knack for talent spotting and trend setting. He did it with Alim Litrifo and now with OH. By comparison, I saw a notice the other for a Va'Yoel Moshe Hamevoyer! Can it get any worse?
Morai Ve'Rabosei
Ich beit enk rachmim.
All this Prisha and Drisha of Belz, Ke'Mikchol Be'Shfoferes if I dare say,shows Ach Ve'Rak that Belz and all its protei protim needs a web site of its own, Me Ken Efsher Zogen , an Internet of its own.
Mi L'Belz Ay'Lai
דו בעלזער מחוצף, דו
קומסט אריין אין מיין בלאג און דו ווילסט שלעפן מענטשן צו זיך? הגם לכבוש את העז עמי בבית? וואו איז דאס געהערט געווארן אזא זאך? שוין טראג זיך אפ פון דאנעט
(See a fantastic letter in this month's OH on an einikel's refusal to wear a Belzer 'bra'.)
hu? whats that?
Halevai zol men mir shmassen in Oilem HuEmes mit a tayneh az ich bin a "בעלזער מחוצף".
Ich vill mer azoleche petch.
Endli'che story w Reb Yoilish about saying "hashem Muloch" brav'eh de'raveh.
Anon @1.06
Yes he is still in business, but not exactly the business he was pursuing as a youngster, his vision was to sit at his grandsons Bar Mitzvah, with Reb Tuvia Weiss and the rest of the G7, not to have the Kaliver right next to him singing Solo Kokosh.
He likes to swim with sharks not with herring.
Gevezene
You are spot on about the potential in OH, it is only to my dismay how they can not rise above the shallow tit-for-tat politics, by ignoring the obvious, not to mention CSF involvement in the rescue, is the equivalent of writing a book on Obama's election campaign, without mentioning Rham Emanuel, plain downright immature-toddler-having-a-tantrum behavior. What is also a bit of a nerve crawler is the way they try to force down the throat of the reader by rebranding the Bilgrayer rov as "Kvod kedushas mharam", personally I don't have problem with that, but in prewar Belz, the youngest brother of the Belzer ruv, Reb Sholem of Apte, was hold in the highest esteem, and was even rumored as being next potential Belzer rov, so if the Agrifas PR Agency has decided to brand the Bilogryer as "kvod kedusahs", than when they name the apter rov simply as "reb Shalom Apter" is somthing what we call sheer Chutzpa.
It also brings a sad smile to my face, how from time to time, in a desperate attempt to make the teenage reader feel good, they throw in a sweet little moifes from the Chief. In the latest edition, I was almost choking with tears of emotion, when I read that moifes in a letter to the editor. And whilst I have no clear reason why the Belzer rov insisted that the Bilgoryer should accompany him in the rescue mission, it is a totally cheap and sickening thing to sell to the masses, that its because the ruv knew that the bilgryer will have a son blah blah blah, If thats the case, why did the ruv remarry twice after the war, and was insistent that it should ba a bas bonim. this somehow messes up their theory.
Anyway, like you say its a good read, just sometimes there is an agenda behind the lines. BTW I recently saw a book on the town Belz from the Macnovker, pretty impressive piece of work. The Belzers were caught of guard I am sure that it caused some late nights in th Agrifas Central Command.
Anon
"if thats the case, why did the ruv remarry twice after the war, and was insistent that it should ba a bas bonim. this somehow messes up their theory."
he did not marry for childrens sake, as it is famous by chasidim what he told for 1 of the Mekurovim that pushed him to remarry, Vein Kan Hamokam... It is as the BB Visnitzer married for tht reason. He only married for rebishe inyonim.
Anon
"Reb Sholem of Apte, was hold in the highest esteem, "
the only sin that the Bilegrayer had in Belz was that he or his mother the 2nd rebetzin stopped the Levaye poccession by pushing for a duo rebisteve in Belz that Reb Aron should be Rebbe and he the Rav. Knowing Chasidim and Belzer Chasidim Bifrat, that they are holding strong the Lo Nishkach Veloi Nislach concept.In the O H they have some letters from the Mashbakin that write that the family is participating at the tishen.I was shocked to see printed these letters, eventough Klapholtz writes already about that day in his biography
Anon
"BTW I recently saw a book on the town Belz from the Macnovker, pretty impressive piece of work"
the earlier book on the Beis HaKneses in Belz is also very impressive, I admire their Guts and Chutzpa i
Gevezener
"Then again, Satmar ignores Kasztner's role in the rescue of their rebbe"
lately they dont ignore it, in the last 15 years they are rewriting that history on a yearly basis, But you are correct, when I was raised in Willi it was never mentioned and they were shrugging it off as The Rebbe Enemies concoct it.
Gevezener
"They've written previously about the Bilgo"
using that nickname for Reb Mordechai, gives me bad memories of the sensitive Budapest Derosha on Siyum Masechtes Sukka about the girl with same family name,
Unlike most other contemporary rebbes, the Belzer Rebbe is an independent thinker who takes orders from no one.His interest in the history of Belz and Galician Jewry is unique and unmatched.Despite what some might say, he is supremely confident and does not seek the approval of his fellow Rebbes. In this he is similar to the giants of the previous generation-the Lubavitcher Rebbe z'l and the Satmarer Rebbe z"l.This is also why he is so resented in certain circles.
Klainer
"he is supremely confident"
you probably dont know him well
Klainer
"the Belzer Rebbe is an independent thinker"
can you lead me to 1 original tought
Gevezener
I saw in the O H the letter of Reb Yehoshoua of Belz to his family about the "Bra" .in the footnote they add a source Maharam M'rottenberg,
what is it exactly ? is it a "Fartech" that goes up to the neck like the overalls of a farmer?
Yelamdaini Rebieni, I think he writes that I saw you not wearing it, it is a little shocking,
Endli'che story w Reb Yoilish about saying "hashem Muloch" brav'eh de'raveh.
Can you elaborate
Gevezen
I don't know why you keep on mentioning Eichler. Eichler is only used as a pawn to earn Belz some (long overdue) political gains, and to act as an unofficial spokesman for Belz on national issues, however he is not part of the Emperor's inner circle, and is actually kept a distance from any genuine influential posts. Freidman however is the guy which orchestrates the band, besides acting as the in-house mentor to the heir to the throne.
Common senses has it that the reason why the Bilgoryer ruv was asked to accompany the Beler ruv zya, was because the Bilgoryer was a very knowledgeable person, and was fluent in language's, and such commodities were very useful in war times (of course the ruv zua might have had his own reasons as well).
For the anon who mentioned the Visneitz BB rebbes remarriage. That's one area which I give the Belzer credit. She was the stepmother of him when he was a youngster (not that this refrained him from boothing out her husband R' Mosher Tuvia) and he arranged her to marry the Vishnezer because she promised (and delivered) to ensure a military coup to bring back from exile R Yisrael Hager (That whole fiasco is worth a post on it own).
Anony 2:11
Let's go for it. Tell us how you know the Belzer Rebbe and what makes you think he is not a confident person.
With all due respect, Belz as an institution was (and is) deeply resented in the "alte heim", and for a good reason. It was a 500 pound gorilla whose members compensated their lack of brains or eidelkeyt with propensity for violence that will make a bad day in Satmar, 770 or T"A look like a nice kumzits. They pretty much invented the autopilot brand of commercial "chassidus" that folks like Tzig detest so much. And there must be something to all the stories of shefichas dumim, however vague. Just ask some old Galitsianer or Hungarian (despite what they'd like you to believe, difference is far from cardinal).
And from all the reports it gathers that Belz of nowadays, finally, is stripped from the only thing that may have justified its existence for all these years. You go figure what it is ...
UD
You write "It was a 500 pound gorilla whose members compensated their lack of brains or eidelkeyt with propensity for violence" I don't know your background, but I assume that you are associated with Munkatch, or some other sect which experienced a brief encounter with Belz. It sound like you have a blind hatred for Belz. Yes, we all know that Belz had a zero tolerance rate for anyone which messed around with them. But the overall approval rate of prewar Belz reached dizzying height's. The last two rebbes Reb Yisschor Dov and Reb Aron zua were considered buy the (objective) population as the greatest Rebbes in their times, so it is only natural that some chasiddem had a bit of an ego escalation, however the vast majority of Belzer chasiddiem were peace loving people, including many hundred's of Talmidei chacomim, and anshei masseh, so you better do you homework before you collectively demonize thousands of followers.
Unfortunately, Belz today had a lot of blunders both domestic and internationally, it began by wiping out anyone who was associated with the previous administration, and continued on an all out war with Satmar, but Satmar were a few steps ahead, and in an unpreccedent act, maneged to recruit many Rabonim including Reb Yankele ztl of Persvosk, which was a Belzer chosid himself, and litralrly outcasted him from the consensus. The Belzer was also very hurt, when he reliezed, that other foes of Satmar, such as Klausenburg and Lubavitch, did stretch out a helping hand (The Lubavitcher rebbe asked him: Why are you speaking "begunsan shell yisrael"?) and left him alone on the battlefield. Since then he has been delegitimized in the public. The only interest which people have today of Belz, is to visit his Beth hamedresh and catch a glimpse of the residential palace. Nobody gives a flying fig what his view's are on warm or cold peace. Its a big shame what has happened to the Empire of Belz.
What's the story with the so-called "bra"? Is it what was called in my younger days a "paroichess'l"?
@ Anon 5:55: I mention Eichler becuase he plays an important role in one aspect of the ruv's multi-faceted persona. I agree that he is not instrumental in internal politics or in the chasidus side of Belz. However, he is a mouthpiece for the political/chareidi side of the Ruv.
The ruv may have few supporters on the chareidi street for his left of centre views on land for peace and coming to an accommodation with the Palestinians and Eichler was instrumental in propounding that less than popular ideology.
More important, the ruv is also a strong proponent of the assertive, arrogant and chauvinistic (to me at least) brand of contemporary chareidism one finds especially in Israel but which also filters through to notionally moderate publications such as Mishpacha and the English Hamodia etc. Everything is to be viewed through a prism of we are wronged, they hate us, we and only we are the true carriers of the authentic tradition and everyone must step aside if not actively assist for our juggernaut to pass. Likewise, any engagement with 'them' is on a kiruv basis since we have all the answers and little to learn from them.
It is why Shafran and Rosenblum and other non-heimishe chareidim are such great fans. The ruv's vision is wide and not parochial as most rebbes (though no less fuddled for that), he is not afraid of modern technology and thought and is happy to bend it to his needs, and unlike the more extreme chareidi elements he does not participate in violent demonstrations and oppose actions that have no direct bearing on chareidi life.
Make no mistake however and he is as ideologically extreme as anyone out there if not more so. He knows however what matters and he goes after it with a vengeance rather than waste time over some graves or a highway miles away from any chareidi yishuv.
And in this too Eichler is instrumental. His writings are (or were when I used to read them) hate filled rants just like his rebbe can finish the broches after his Torah apropos of nothing that 'sonim of the Torah should have a mapole'. So while he may not have played much of a part in the ego trips of the big shil, battles with machofke or the machloikes with Satmar he is an idealogical bedfellow for his role in Israeli politics and in the Belz brand outside heimishe circles where it is irremediably devalued.
UD, ich mein di treibst iber. Satmar hot zich gornisht tsi shemn with the violence of amolike Belz. Tshernobil and its offshoots could be just as bad if not worse. Read up what happened to those who crossed Reb Dovidl Tolne or the Ruzhiner. And in Belz case is was often to oppose the mizrachistn which is how extreme they were.
I don't think there is much to ask the ingerisher as many of their gedoilim were Belzer chasidim. R' S Brach, the Arigas Habosem, Vayaged Yakov, more recently the Poppe Rov and many many more.
Anon
"because she promised (and delivered) to ensure a military coup to bring back from exile R Yisrael Hager (That whole fiasco is worth a post on it own)."
it is a conspiracy but a good one,she had a relationship with the Belzer thru her father the Katamoner Ruv, who became a big Klausenburger chusid but kept a strong hiskashrus to Belz, and she was her fathers right hand, she could say derush almast as good as he father, dont forget she has sperber blood too in her viens,Her Ziede was a Magid Nifla. The Visnitzer had the best married life in this 2 years that he was well and healthy, she used to give him chazura on the torah with her add on. The son Mendel was out to ruin this, he needed his fathers full coperation for his Mubarak style regime. He started messing with her and his fathers personal aide, from their the snowball started rolling.
Yoshe
in the footnotes they write that it is close to that Paroches but in a female version,
There is so much to write and I agree, im kol hakoved to Reb Hershl, that it's about time we have a site to discuss all of this without intruding on others.
Bekitzer, a few points.
Eichler wrote an article to spin the Bilgorayer's droshe so he's used in those areas too.
The support of the ruv to the marriage of Moshe Tuvia's widow to his father in law is a strange one. I will stick to loshen nekiye but I cannot fail to see the psycho-sexual element in matching up one's nemesis's widow to replace the hated mother in law and share the bed of the old fool of a father in law.
The 'bra' everyone's been asking about is called in the letter a 'brist tichel'. The footnote compares it to a poroiches that the men wore and which I believe the rov still wears. I'm not sure it's any more than conjecture since it's unlikely that R' Shiele would get so worked up over something as insignificant and hardly visible as that.
My guess is that it is something like the shirtzl that many chasidishe women wear Friday night but which reached over their chest.
Whatever the case, since the letter is from the Rov's private collection I cannot fail to see the mischievous twinkle in his eye in releasing it for publication.
On the guy who suggested confidence as proof of the rov's gadluth, I can only say that I also used to think that way. Of course Moshe Rabeinu's chronic lack of confidence would put him well below the rov but I suppose that is a small price to pay.
More to the point, Rabbi Rokach might have made a brilliant leader in E. Europe c.1960s and there is no doubt that he has led his own group successfully for the last 30 odd years. That however does not make him a 'giant' unless you're referring to his physical size.
True he has an independent streak as I've written above and that he is different to most chasidic leaders. However I'm afraid his supposed 'greatness' in yiddishkeit does not stand up to close scrutiny.
His personal life is and has always been one of extravagance which wouldn't shame a tin pot dictator, he resorts to violence whenever he is cornered and his supposed innovations in psychology and pedagogy are nowhere to be seen in the education of 2 or 3 generations for which he has been directly responsible through his educational institutions.
So what you are left with are his occasional public pronouncements which go against the grain such as going out to work but which he hardly puts into practise, his kiruv movement which is rather superficial since they are not allowed too close to his haylike bochurim and yungeleit, his monument to hubris in the shape of his beis hamedrash, volume upon volume of his carefully edited Torahs from which there is little to quote, a deep rooted cynicism to anything which doesn't fit his weltanschauung or, tampering with minhogim and nischoei hatfilo as if they come a penny a piece, dikduk and nisach (ne'imah) crazes that make fools of his followers and so on and on and on.
Finally, one little tidbit for all Belz lovers round here. Apparently, AM recently visited Antwerp and the Belzers, as is their wont, prepared police motorcycle outriders and the whole umph that goes with a 'royal' visit. As the entourage was waiting for his car to leave the airport or arrive in town the police sergeant in charge was told innocently that it is the Rebbe's son who is arriving. The sergeant snapped that he had thought it was the Rebbe himself and he is not laying this on for the son and so called the whole parade off.
Machnifke hot zay avade intergeshtelt.
Gevezener
no need to apologize. Hosting a blog is not as easy as it seems, especially if you want to limit yourself to one - albeit fascinating - topic.
There is a strange story in the new Oir Hatzofen that the Ruv shlita told for the Writer Padwa, that one night Chanuka his Menora turned over, while it was happening he reliazed that his great grandfather. Reb Henechs(Londoner Charadie Ruv) father, standing on a bench and looking, and that night he passed away.Can you decipher that message? Their is alot of stuff their that Padwa writes that is not too bekoved for his family, but that his is own problem.
After more than 100 comments on this subject I reach the unmistakeable conclusion that we have a major case of nit farginung; pure and simple.What most of the critics are really saying is that the average, generic hassidic yungerman with limited education and life experience resents a leader who thinks independently and isn't looking behind his shoulder at what the other rebbelech are saying. He told the Edah to take a hike and he was right.It was the smartest thing he ever did. It was the biggest mapoloh for Satmer-they were no longer calling the tune in the non-lubavitch Hassidic world and the world was a lot better for it.He rebuilt the Belzer shule which was destroyed by the Nazis. The very act of rebuilding the shule is a reflection of the Ruv's committment to the continuity of Klal Israel. Only an unfeeling soul cannot feel the enormity of the act of rebuilding the shule.He's head and shoulders above the average rebbele in BP or Bnei Brak. He cares about the future of Israel, he cares about remembering the Holocaust, and he has rebuilt Belz literally from the ashes.Not bad for a little orphan child, left without father or friend.You need not agree with all of his policies to admit that the Ruv is a very special person.
Gevezene
Excuse my ignorance, but where have you seen any Macloikes on the Rizner? I once saw in one of the Ruizner Toiers that he expressed his dismay that he has no Misnagdim.
Klainer
When you have thousands of young couple's, which have to cut from their bread and butter, in order to build and maintane his BH, its not that big deal.
Klainer
what an idiotic excuse for criticisim on the Belzer,"Loi Mefargen"
how exactly do you rebuilt yiddishkiet by building a massive brick and mortar facade on the highest mountain in Jerusalem. In my world you rebuilt yidishkiet by taking the 15 or 20 million and helping 100's of parents to marry off their children, he could built for 1 million dollars a big shul as a simple bus depot, with heat and lighting.He is immature like a little boy with his little tyke. You are not getting it, that it shmeks from the Sadam Hussien palace syndrome.
Mr. anony 2:19
Why don't you demand lubavitch send all money going to shluchim and outreach to your chasuneh fund?
The current gerer rebbe is said to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars. How about a nice donation from him?
How about the millions spent in court in Satmer?
How about the rebbeshe chasunehs that cost hundreds of thousands and maybe more?
Why doesn't the edah part with its huge hashgachah income for your chasuneh fund.
You prove my point:you can't fargin the Belzer Rov cause he doesn't take orders from HQ.Luckily.he doesn't care.He rebuilt Belz and that's a fact not subject to dispute.
Klainer
Who are you trying to bull**it here. Lubavitch is using the money raised, to run their shulchim program, a purely legitimate use of funds. Belz took 50 million Dollars of hard earned bread and butter, bulit himself a huge BH, which is locked during the week, other than Israeli TV Arutz 2 getting a guided tour, (I wonder what Reb Yisschor Dov Ztl thought of that) plus a huge presidential compound with botanical gardens, all at the disposal of a couple who have already married off their single child. Gosh the Melamdim in the Belzer Chadorim must go pink, when they teach the little boys, how Reb Elimelch and the Zanzer Ruv did not go to sleep if they had a single cent left at home.
As for the Gerrer Rebbe, all his money is from pure inheritance, no yingeleit Kollel Gelt, and with all his millions he has an extremely modest BH, looks nothing more than an aircraft hangar. Someone could learn a good lesson from him.
As for the Satmar boys fighting, you are right Belz has got no need to be shy from them, they actually have a lot in common.
Anony 5:11
You think that the Jews in the alter heim didn't give their last groshn to build beautiful shuls? The old Belzer Rov built a beautiful shule-forgive me -it was no aircraft hangar.There were shuls all over Europe that were beautiful in every sense of the word. Did the gedolei Yisroel complain about it?There were magnificent shuln all over Poland ,Lite ,Galicia,Hungary,etc.Andbelieve me there was real dachkes and hunger in pre-war Europe.Is there a protest from any gedolei yisroel against this practice?
The problem with marrying off children comes from a society in Israel where people don't work.The parents never worked and the new couple don't plan to work.This is an impossible economic system and the Belzer Shule has no relevance to the problem.I certainly would prefer to daven in a beautiful shule rather than a aircraft hangar.
Klainer
"Why don't you demand lubavitch send all money going to shluchim and outreach to your chasuneh fund?"
I am not a Lubavicher, if u want I will join you in your call for all the shluchim.
"The current gerer rebbe is said to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars. How about a nice donation from him?"
I am not a gerer chosid, but he does give alot of his private fiunds for his chasidim, and it does not compare to milking poor yungeliet coming off after their wedding with no furniture in a rented basement in BP and Shimon Volf and big bad Mechel Halberstam visit the freshman with a room void of even chairs. But they need money for the Shul on the hill. Give me a break, in this field he can use the Gerer Rebbes as his Role Model.
Klainer
"How about the rebbeshe chasunehs that cost hundreds of thousands and maybe more?"
the shul is on top of his Rebishe Bar Mitzvahs too?(his apetite never stops) he is head and shoulder then any rebbele in the universe on Milking Yidishe kinder.He finished his Shul then he built a massive 10000 feet Holywood style house for a couple with no kids in the house.
Klainer
"How about the millions spent in court in Satmer?"
Satmar has more money then the US Mint, it is not a Kehila of shnorers as Belz, 75% of Satmar are Balbatish People.
What the Belzer shule needs is 100,000 sq.ft. of Hisachdus endorsed faux wood pandeling.Then nobody will suspect the Ruv of having committed the ultimate heresy-that of having a sense of taste and beauty. By the way all your criticisms against the Ruv can be made against the Tzaddikim of yesteryear who lived in palatial residences and vacationed in the most expensive spas. This is a criticism against the entire institution of the "Rebbe." All this while many of their chassidim lived in poverty and squalor with thousands of alte moidn who would never get married for lack of nadan.
"By the way all your criticisms against the Ruv can be made against the Tzaddikim of yesteryear who lived in palatial residences and vacationed in the most expensive spas. This is a criticism against the entire institution of the "Rebbe." All this while many of their chassidim lived in poverty and squalor with thousands of alte moidn who would never get married for lack of nadan."
And the Snag me says Yup! Got a point!!
Klainer
"By the way all your criticisms against the Ruv can be made against the Tzaddikim of yesteryear who lived in palatial residences and vacationed in the most expensive spas. This is a criticism against the entire institution of the "Rebbe." All this while many of their chassidim lived in poverty"
Belz was never in to indulgence, it was the opposite. They didnt even wnt to make shiduchim with the rich Rebbes, all the Ruzhiner rebbes after Vienna were not ready to go back to that lifestyle, they were very modest. All of a sudden we get a new puretz of a Belzer family.
Klainer
Regarding the nice old shuls in the town and villages.
or it was proportional to the wealth of the town, and most of the time you will see a Gevir or 2 Gevirim that are inscribed on the walls that gave the bulk of the money.Most of the beautiful shulls of late, were built by the non orthodox that were very rich.
Klainer
Nobody fargins him!! What exactly do you think pulls the trigger of envy towards him? Do you honestly think that people envy the fact that his compound is on every tourist must-see list.
There is a famous letter from Reb Chaim Ozer ztl, which he writes that Klal Yisroel have a healthy instinct. In the general public he has not earned much respect, other than showing some glimmer of brilliance in leadership skills (don't worry he is no Churchill) people don't give two hoots about his legacy.
If there is anyone I envy, it is the the Aviodas Hashem of the Amshinover Rebbe, the vast knowledge in Torah of Reb Chaim Kanievsky, the memory of harav Ovadia Yosef, the Ahavas yisroel of the Tosher Rebbe. These are the giants I look up to, luminaries who are dedicated 24/7 to hashem and his Torah. If I were to admire someone who has got a taste for beauty there are a number of French and Italian designer's which I have in mind before choosing Belz.
Anon504
It has also been disclosed by Reb Baruch of Seret zl, that it was suggested for the Bilgryer ruv the daughter of the Radomsker Rebbe ztl, and Reb Yissor Dov ztl appreciated him that he helped to persuade the Rebtzin as se past nisht far Belz such a rich shidech.
Anon
I heard this Radomsker shiduch story from my Grandfather who was almost the age of the Sereter
You're trying to tell me that the original shule wasn't a magnificent edifice ?And yes, it had the groise shteeb attached to the shule and it served as the living quarters for the Rebbe's family. This too was an impressive structure. The present Ruv is simply trying to recreate the shulhoif as it existed in prewar Belz. He didn't come up with this idea as the product of his imagination. This is part of the mesorah of Belz.I'm not doubting your stories about not wanting rich shiduchim but you cannot deny that the shule and groise shteeb were very impressive buildings which by the way must have cost a fortune to build in their time.If you don't believe me both Belz and Machnovke have published extensively on this subject including pictures.
KlaiNer (kop)
Mesorah. Really. The holy Ruv only means mesorah. So when the ruv zl had his shabby little BH in Tel aviv, he went against his own mesorah? Za nisht kan za ingrisher nar. now for the facts . The groisee shtieb in belz was big but was hardley worth a peep. It served as the residency for the extended family of the rebbe, tens of family's, with many children, including the tishen were held there plus the yoshvim's mess hall. Did you also know that the ruv zl did not allow electricity in his private quarters, or you did not bother to read the small print. And you have got the nerve to compare this, with the state of the art Saudi style compound, fitted with latest technology and gadgets, with a miltary no entry zone, all heavily guarded with a shoot to kill policy for the prying eye, all for a single couple, and you compare this to the drab of a building in Belz?!
And speaking about Meshorah. There was no rebbe in the history of Chasiduth who challenged his predecessors minhogim and nusach hatfilah, like the belzer did. Phsycolgist's have been puzzled for decades to explain the motive behind this resentment. I trust good old gevezene to come along with a theory. But suddenly when it comes to arciteture iz er zer makpid of mesorah. You have got a unique sense of humor.
Klainer
"Machnovke have published extensively on this subject including pictures."
the Machnuvker book about shul does neot give you the impression of a massive edifice, not at all. Fiers of all that style of constriuction was the norm for many shuls in galicia look for pictures of Skule and Brude. The belzer shul was worthed a book, since reb Shulem Belzer put in alot of effort and as the story goes with the thousand nights, on Kavonaas and Hamshochas for the Shul. why is this guy that I fargin him his Meshugaz Belev Venefesh to mimick a Ruchniesdige thing like that. I remember the joke of 1 of the belzer Rosh Hakolelim(passed away already) that he was asked Where is the ruv up to with the 1000 necht, He answered he starts every week again the 1000's nights.
wow gevezenr, i hope you get past being a gevezener and find a new niche to hang out in
Would the gevezene, gevorene,and all in all farbisene haters of the Ruv please tell the chosheve olem how the nusach hatefillah was changed.What heilike minhagim were tampered with?What's the dikduk story?If you can write with such eloquence in praise of the Ruv's sophisticated tastes in the areas of music and architecture then please enlighten us as to how the Ruv has betrayed the Belzer mesorah? The latest Belzer siddur seems to be an unprescedented achievement by arguably the most important Rebbe of this generation.I imagine you might have a slightly different opinion on this matter.
Klainer
why are you talking about a subject you have no idea,
did you ever use the Belzer/Bonyader sidur?
Gevezene. wow wow. I honestly recommend that you should write a book about the evolution of Chasidduth, and in particular on the roller coaster ride of Belz. It will be bestseller. Just for safety reasons I strongly recommend, that you do not use your real name, as you will be on every dictator's most wanted list, with a big bounty on your head. The wardens at the Agrifas academy must have been flogged for allowing such talent like yourself escape the barracks.
I just have a number of reservations on your observations. I think that you give to much credit to the Chief, Is there not a guy called Ostreicher who was the main architect? You also forgot to mentioned the mega marble Menorah mounted on the outside wall, which makes the puzzled tourist ask the guide to double check if we are at a chasiddisce shul or at the Israeli Knesset. The chief was probably thinking if this makes Reb Sholem Brander zl (a newbie like klanier has probably never heard of him) and the rest of the old school toss in their graves, so be it.
BTW I have noticed on the latest pictures, that the Ruv has switched from the traditional brown kolpik, to some giant ugly black spodik. Are we witnessing an identity crisis or is it simply that the ruv has decided to refresh his wardrobe.
Did you ever use the Belzer siddur "Avodas Hashem?" Maybe it's a subject you have no idea about also.Why don't you visit your local,friendly Belzer bookstore and do a little "browsing."While you're there you can pick up a fresh copy of the "Machane HaHareidi" for yourself and a copy of Architectural Digest for the "gevezener."
There's a special report on chassidishe staircases and Ingarishe chandeliers.
Was Shulem Fogel stiill alive when the Grestest Shul on Earth was finished? Klainer Bachi, maybe you know?
I will Bezer Hashem never use the Belzer/Bonyader siddur
Klainer
"While you're there you can pick up a fresh copy of the "Machane HaHareidi"
thanks for telling me that the amateur newspaper is still in print, I thought it folded 15 years ago,
Who funds such a forever losing proposition? I hope they receive some government funding and don't waste yiddish gelt.
Klainer, I have to get some work done too and I can't afford a comment like the last one every evening. I hoped to be able to produce 10 changes in nusach but since I'm miles away from a Belzer shtibl to check out his Authorised Version siddur I can only come up with 5 from memory. I'm sure they can cite a source for each of them just as the devil can cite
scriptures for his purpose. However, kol hameshane yodoi al hatachtoino and it is perfectly legitimate to query why he must lay his grubby paws on everything that is dear to generations of people and why his obscure sources are preferable to established and canonised nuscho'ois.
Anyway, here they are:
1. Al _yedei_ in the first passage of kedusha.
2. Deletion of 'Seloh' at the end of Al Horishoinim.
3. 'kodom avihoin _moro_ di vishmayo uve'aroh' in Tiskabeil of kadish sholeim.
4. Moving the stops in the yom tov krioh of parshath emoir.
5. Rearranging the positions of the refrain of shlosh esrei midoth in the slichoth passages of Neiloh.
While no. 1 is the most prominent change and designed to rival the '_vechein_ kosuv' of minhag Sanz and Satmar it is no. 5 which is nothing short of gratuitous and wanton vandalism of the holiest prayer on the holiest day with utter contempt for any view or feeling but his own. But before you accuse me of hyperbole let me explain.
Neilah is the finale of Yom Kippur when Jews the world over of every persuasion are wrapped up in emotional prayer during the culmination of the fast day. The last distraction anyone wants or needs is a rearrangement of the liturgical furniture from what is familiar through generations. Yet along comes this bulldozer and for no apparent reason drives the equivalent of his weight squared through the established nusach of this holiest of tefiloth simply to prove that he is master of all he surveys and short of walking away with your wife he can and will do just as he sees fit.
No doubt one of his many research institutes will point to a Bodleian machzor of some Alsacian bal hatoisfeth or a Sidur Rav Amrom to prove that HaRuv Tomim Po'oloi and his perfectionism for chant, accentuation, text and grammar are based on early folios, medieval tunes and ancient grammar. Never mind that this masterstroke invalidated thousands of hitherto kosher machzorim and forced his blind devotees to invest in the new officially sanctioned versions thus filling the royal coffers. It is his independence we are called upon to admire. He toes no one's line but his own, we are told, without bothering to check what it is he's hooked to the end of his cord. All we now need is a special Belzer cut for the brith, a sefer Torah 'Avodath Hashem' and like Nebuchadnezzar he can feel he's conquered even the heavens.
Firstly, as far as nusach hatefila goes, it's a long-standing prerogative - especially by Twerski rebbes to enact such minute changes, temporatily or permanently. Frankly, I have no problem accepting that, if one is already buying into the whole rebbe/chusid business.
As far as what he has done with Belz, it is a much more complex, deep and dark story than what most know or believe. The way I see it - with all the worthlessness - is that he is doiresh dam ..., at least subconsciously, from the very institution that embodies the injustice done to his family. He's doing them from the inside, and doing so with taste (relative to most peers) and gusto.
Others' claim to Belzer mesoirah (oukh mir a yerisha...) - be it Skver, Pupa or even Satmar - all have a bit of legitimacy to it. Frankly, each of them could claim that they are more Belz then him in a given area - honyokishkeyt or kanous. The real question is what's going to happen to all that after his 120. We'll probably end up with at least 10 times more wannabe banner carriers compared to what happened after Divrei Yoel's petirah. Especially since this particular banner doesn't have any complex designs on it ...
UD
I'd like to thank you for a well-written and informative post. But most of all thanks for keeping it free of the dreaded ad-hominem attack
who is moshiach?
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