Wednesday, January 25, 2012

What is Rabbi Hertz Frankel trying to say?

Pages 66-67 of Ami Magazine issue 54.RabbiFrankel

Needless to say I was surprised to see the Rebbe's picture gracing Ami's pages last week. And, נאך, the "Principal" article! נישט שייכות צו זאגען! So I began to read. At first we read about Sender Deutsch being G-d's gift to humanity. OK. I get that. No mention of his nasty side, but that's to be expected. He was his friend, after all. But then he goes on to say how he regrets never having met the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and my ears stand on end! So I continued to read, and I came out scratching my head, because it seems at one point that he had a "gotcha!" moment where he "catches" Rabbi Hodakov with an untruth. And they make a "grab" out of it in the article as well. So did he regret not meeting the Rebbe because he could make the same point to the Rebbe directly, or was it because he wanted to really meet the Rebbe and bask in his glow? Anybody care to comment?

As was made very clear in the comments, the whole story makes little sense. Not that we doubt that RHF visited with Rabbi Hodakov in 770, but the dates don't match. There was no proclamation about Tefillin till years later. AFAIK the battles against נתוחי מתים were in the late 50s, and מבצע תפלין was not announced until 1967/5727. And even on that the Rebbe didn't sign anything. The קול קורא was signed by many Rebbes and Rabbonim, including many Litvishe Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva, but it was done "לאור קריאת כ"ק אדמו"ר מליובאוויטש שליט"א" and the Rebbe's signature did not grace that page. So where does that leave us as to the veracity of the article in particular?

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

Mishpacha has a moifes from zalman leib!!

Seems like satmer sells rags!

snagville said...

The fact they could get away with such drivel never ceases to amaze. More importantly it proves that the Frankfurters and Frankel have studied well by their Rebbe, Harav P.T. Barnum Zatzal, whose motto was "a sucker is born every minute". They know that most people just peruse these magazines &/or newspapers looking at the pictures of Simchos/tragedies etc. Therefore, ironically they could put a photo of the Rebbe next to an article that at the least insults him and at the most makes complete bizyonos of him and more people will walk away from this issue saying "wow, Ami really is for everyone". How ironic. (I guess as ironic as me the Snag being the one to feel insulted for the Rebbe. I think it might just be that i find these publications to be degrading for the reader. I would rather my kids read "fill in the blank with some goyishe publication" than any of this drivel).

Anonymous said...

I heard that Zali Rebbe graces the front of page of Mishpacha?
Can someone update us.
How do the willi rabonim zealots allow, I guess whatever helps to bury the brother of Orange county is a Mitzvah of Ubiarto Hora Mikirbecho, which is priority mitzva in the zipcode of 11211

mg said...

I also read the article. After I read it I asked myself, "What was the point of his article???" Did he really want to meet the Rebbe or was his goal to make the Rebbe look bad in his refusal to sign a letter of protest?

It was a wasted article.

Anonymous said...

I think hertz frankel had lapses in his memory and Judgement

1) Sender Deutsch was no talmid chochem ,he knew a little agadata and midrashim, enough to publish the Divrie yoel. He did know real Gefes

2) the Lubavicher Rebbe never signed a proclamation for Tefilin, he spoke by Farbrengens 100's of times, but no broadsheet(Kol Koreh) that the LR signed, there was a Kol Koreh of Gedolim promoting it,but without his signature.

3) Mivtza tefilim started by the 6 day war era, it is the same time that Satmar ruv had the stroke, which was very severe for the first year or two, it was impossible for Hertz frenkel to have this type of discussions

The Bray of Fundie said...

No clue what he wants. Why did he need a private conversation with the Satmar Rebbe ZY"A over his philosophical views on the Holocaust? He stated them explicitly in V'Yoel Moshe and many of his other writings. What is incomprehensible to us was eminently reasonable to him ZY"A.

What did "the Principal" think ? That the Satmar Rebbe ZYA in an unguarded moment was going to confide in him and say "Nah.. I was only kidding with all that stuff about the Holocaust being the punishment for the sin of Zionism. Truth is I have no idea. Your guess is as good as mine."

Am I missing something here or is this an attempt on his part at apologetics since so many people find the Satmar Holocaust theology ahem, unacceptable? or is it just arrogant tipshis!

The Bray of Fundie said...

Not sure what the picture has to do with the linked article.

Anonymous said...

Dear Tzig

I'm a Belzer so I'm not choshud with ahavas Satmer, but tachles he made a quite clear point about the Rebbe signing fot Tfillin leygen, (and I beelieve that He probably also signed for different Mivtzo'im). So why would it be out of the question (far enough for His secretary to know even beforehand) for the
Rebbe not to sign for forced autopsies?

klainer said...

I don't know what he's trying to say but I will give him credit for taking a position that the Holocaust is very much an issue for believing Jews even after so many years.At least it seems clear that he is unwilling to accept the simplistic Satmar line about the three"oats"being the cause for the destruction of six million Jews. He deserves to be congratulated for such a stance.In an Orthodoxy where the slightest non-conformism is tantamount to heresy and apikorsus,his position shows courage and honesty.Just wanting to discuss these matters with the LR shows an open mind searching for some real answers.

Anonymous said...

hodakov definitely looks bad in this story. makes one wonder how much authority to decide who got to see the LR he had and whether he abused his authority.

Anonymous said...

What you are reading is the SR public policy that no one will bite the hand that feeds him, in torah its called Shoched,

BelzFinAMool said...

If I read this correctly, Frankel went against the advice of his Rebbe, because he knew better than his Rebbe, especially when it came to his Rebbe's Kovod.

There is a very short list of Khsides'en that aren't guilty of the same.

Tzig, you don't have to look very far for examples.

Plus, it is worth many bonus points if you perpetrate and publicize that "Mein Rebbe fregt Nit, Vos Maint Ihr Reb Moiz, Vos Trakht Ihr,Reb Katz".

This idea is made much more Ba'Tamt in conjunction with the following:

Mein Rebbe (and by extension,me), Mein Derekh is far superior to anything out there. Everyone else exists only as a basis of triumphalist comparison.

This has been a Makas Medina in Yiddishkeit for many years, and will no doubt grow and flourish.

The Samekh Mem lekt Zikh Di Finger Fun Dem.

Anonymous said...

i first want to see the rebbes signature on the mivtza tfilin proclamation...

Shmuel said...

You just have to love how Rabbi Hodakov's dismissed him.

Anonymous said...

Belzer chosid
"but tachles he made a quite clear point about the Rebbe signing fot Tfillin leygen,"


its about time you should start loving Satmar, especially now after the greatest publicized Mechila ceremony,
as it was written before, the Lubavocher rebbe never signed a Koil Koreh about Tefilin or anything, check it out... it is a Hertz fabrication..

Anonymous said...

Klainer
you made a fine and correct point, Plus I heard from many people, that the SR when talking to outsiders, non partisan people,he was able to entertain ideals that were not in tow with his views,
But after the good shmooze, he was back to his old dogma.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"hodakov definitely looks bad in this story. makes one wonder how much authority to decide who got to see the LR he had and whether he abused his authority."
Hodakov does not look bad, he was not fond of hotheads, being a yekke himself he looked at him as Loonie

TOVIA said...

A SERIOUS LETTER TO THE EDITOR NEEDS TO HAPPEN HERE, AND AMI BETTER RE-EVALUATE REB HERTZ'S CAPACITY TO RECALL THINGS

Anonymous said...

http://www.bhol.co.il/forums/topic.asp?cat_id=4&topic_id=2939482&forum_id=771

Anonymous said...

I actualy liked the article. It was well worth it just to see that the Satmar Rebbe never made a disparaging remark about the Lubavitcher Rebbe. That is a very important historical fact. Regarding mishpoche's zali moifes, can you believe how that rag fell?!

Leiner said...

I find it funny that anyone thinks this is supposed to be insulting the Lubavitcher Rebbe. He seems to be quite sincere about wishing that he had gotten to speak with the Rebbe, and he makes the point that the Satmar Rebbe never attacked the Rebbe personally. At the very most, he's putting forth his experiences with Rabbi Hodakov, and he doesn't really press the question of who was right in the encounter. I also think that arguing with someone else's memory could be done with a little less nastiness. At the worst, he forgot or made some error. And Ami certainly has put out more articels about Chabad than any other of the mainstream mags.

JJJ said...

The moderate RAT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9VsrNQkz64&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Anonymous said...

Anon
"That is a very important historical fact. Regarding mishpoche's zali moifes, can you believe how that rag fell?!"
I am not a conspiracy type of guy, but I believe that Mishpacha made some back room deals with the Zali godfathers, that the Eda of Jerusalem will not join the Ban of the Yated group, that publicized a damming Rav Elieshev letter against Mishpacha. If you follow the dirty politics of the Yated and its hooligans, you will grasp what I am talking about.
Mishpacha is under attack from this bloodsuckers, that are out to bring them down.
If the Zalis would like the magazine to say that Zali is a bigger goan then the Ragachover, they would print it.

Anonymous said...

Liener
you are 100% correct

Ende Tsadik said...

Anon 10.30, you needn't go so far. If Soshe T featured in Ami, Zali had to feature somewhere too. Perhaps his wife is not as articulate so they got a moifes fun der rebbe alein.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:20, “Satmar Rebbe never made a disparaging remark about the Lubavitcher Rebbe.”

This is factual not true, when the rebbe kissed the Israeli pres. שייזר and said כל העולה לגדולה מוחלין לו על כל עונותיו that summer the SR spoke about it and said a devar torah to the shoprener rav on: הנמצא כזה איש אשר רוח אלהים בו referring to the rebbe that it’s impossible for someone who knows languages -not from a מלאך- that there is a רוח אלהים בו he repeated that torah by ס"ג in דברים תשכ"ז available in print and on tape and says: I already said it once, meaning what he said to shoproner ruv when he specifically mentioned the rebbes name.

Anonymous said...

Keep Soshe out of this, she'll send her gabai after you.

shaul shapira said...

What I took out of this is that the SR Zatzal had no personal problem with an Agudist who didn't buy his shita. He said what he felt was neccesary in Vayoel Moshe and that's it.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"This is factual not true, when the rebbe kissed the Israeli pres. שייזר and said כל העולה לגדולה מוחלין לו על כל עונותיו that summer the SR spoke about it and said a devar torah to the shoprener rav on: הנמצא כזה איש אשר רוח אלהים בו referring to the rebbe that it’s impossible for someone who knows languages -not from a מלאך- that there is a רוח אלהים בו he repeated that torah by ס"ג in דברים תשכ"ז available in print and on tape and says: I already said it once, meaning what he said to shoproner ruv when he specifically mentioned the rebbes name."
you fact is factual not true,
1) the Shoproner Ruv,knew languages too, he learned in college,before he became a chosid, he was from a Hirshean family, the Munkacher Ruv had to work hard to get him a shtele by the Kantzelie for this stain on his resume, since he was his chosid. So the Sr who was not stupid picked the wrong guy for this discussion, he should of picked Reb Yechezkele Mertz for this discussion.
2) Give me 2 Hungarian Rabonim that did not know the language, the, probably all learned it by Malochim, (maybe the Malochim from willi type)
3) Chaim Moshe Shtauber, who was in his house alot(until he was fired from his post) claims the same fact that the SR never badmouthed the LR.

Disclaimer. personally I don't care he if he did disparage someone or not, since all the gedolie hadoir and roiv Minyan Ubinyan, were on the other side of his camp anyway,but the facts are the facts.

Lozmirup said...

Anon 2:33 is probably right. It's doubtful the SR got personal against any frum leader or we would have heard about it. Lishitosoi, he could have blasted ger, belz, Lubavitch, 90% of the litvishe just over the medina money for yeshivas. It's more probable that he strenuously avoided getting personal, and stuck to the shita.

The only exception (I suspect) is klausenberg, and that was a personal family issue.

Anonymous said...

The most scathing comment about the Lubavitcher attributed to a Gadol, that I know of, was said when he refused to attend the asifa against Giyus Banos

give me a break said...

these comments are so out of touch, all frankel means to say is that there was a talk with the satmer rebbi regarding getting a sig. from the lubavitch rebbi, so it was not aaotopsies just something else.

if not a signature it was about speaking out, making a shuterm, for example rabbi frankel brings mivtza tefilin, it could have been cruise ships stopping on shabbos...

Anonymous said...

Give Me ...
if the guy does not remember the details and writes it as if it happened, then who vouches for the balance of the story?
not me...

Yossel's P'shat said...

The Lubavitcher Rebbe had a shita to let other people or Mosdois do their thing what was important to them and he did his. The more other people did things for yiddiskeit besides Lubavitch the happier he was.
It's also well known that the Rebbe never signed any proclamations.
Horav Hadakov told him the Rebbe doesn't sign etc. with out explaining the reason why knowing that to ask the Rebbe is useless as he doesn't B'shita.

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