Tuesday, November 20, 2012

"?מי סבל בעד תורת זקינך זי"ע"



Photo from YU.Net


The Gaon Reb Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik of Boston speaks about the Alter Rebbe's mesiras nefesh for Chassidus. In an unusual outburst of emotion the Rov cries out about the harassment he gets in the secular press for standing up for Torah and Yiddishkeit. As opposed to Agudists. This seems to be at a  Mizrachi dinner or function of some sort. Just as the AR, and not his biological grandson Reb Burech'l Mezhibuzher, נ"ע, was the one who suffered for Toras Chassidus CHaBaD, "שהיא היא תורת הבעש"ט". I admittedly searched for the words that RYBS uses and could not find the exact quotes, but the gist of what he says is written in a letter published in אגרות קודש אדמו"ר הזקן, אגרת ס' עמוד קמ"א, which we attach here. It's possible that the letter is paraphrased elsewhere and that it is where the Rov took it from. Did Reb Burech'l say that Shitas CHaBaD was "Apikurses?" The Rov is clearly annoyed with Reb Burech'l.... The word Mezhibuzh is pushed out of his mouth, and he says that Reb Burech did not even understand the sichos chulin of "dem Alten Rebben!"


34 comments:

ChaimG said...

Excellent! When was this speech given?
Can someone elaborate on the Kashrus issue mentioned?

moshe moshel said...

JB didn't understand either.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

RABBI JB to you, Moshe.

azigra said...

reminds me of the time i heard a rabbi in the 5 towns say that R Shach didnt reach the Chabad Rebbe's ankles in bekiyus.

Anonymous said...

this is heavy stuff, and chaval i never read thru the AR's igros.
According to this, the machloikes with RB started in 5562, which is almost 30 yrs after the histalkus of the maggid.

moshe moshel said...

The reasons lubavitchers are enraptured by RJBS and charachters like Steinzalts, is twofold. First, because they both made/make claims of shaychus. Which are very shvach, by any standard. Second, because they share company in being marginalized by the olam hatorah.

How many times did R Soloveitchik speak to the Rebbe over the course of many decades while they both lived in the USA? Twice or thrice.

Steinzaltz, was condemmed for his writings denigrating the holy words of Chazal! Don't Lubavitchers also feel hurt at a zilzul in the Torah?! Just because the Rebbe was nice to him doesn't mean he aproved of him...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The reason most Yeshivaleit are NOT enraptured by RYBS, despite his accomplishments in the field of Torah is because quite simply they are Jealous. And Afraid.

moshe moshel said...

No. Because he was "Modern Orthodox" in spite of being a gaon and R' Chaim's grandson.

Tomashover said...

Moshe Moshel
"The reasons lubavitchers are enraptured by RJBS and charachters like Steinzalts, is twofold."
Chabad is Emes and this 2 people are Anshie emes and geniuses and cant fit in the artscroll box

Tomashover said...

Moshe Moshel
"Second, because they share company in being marginalized by the olam hatorah."
what does that nonsense mean? is Chabad now marginalized in the same box as rav Shmuel Auerbach and Rav Gross?
U think that Lubavicher Rebbe was looking every morning where the wind of Benai berak is blowing..

Tibi Lotzi said...

Moshe Moshel
" because they both made/make claims of shaychus"
If a Jew learns Tanya and Likutie torah and gave Shiurim on their torah,And davens Shabos morning Bearichus in to the late afternoon hours, is that consider "MAKING CLAIMS"

molidyetz said...

Shalomi lears toras chabad...

snagville said...

Tzig,

Your blog is starting to read like the Protocols of the Elders of Vilna (or Bnei Brak depending on the era you are covering). Relax, there is a lot of questions about the scholarship of RYBS and if I was you as a Chossid of your Rebbe you should be reluctant to put them in the same category. I had a VERY chassidishe Rebbi in Yeshiva who went through a lot of RYBS Torah and thought of most of it to be quite elementary.

שור זואם said...

Steinzaltz makesfun of hazal...how about the avot " she was his romantic plaything"

rebcharles said...

yo, sup with "suffering"?
Sounds Christological.

?קאליסקער-פון-אמאל said...

דער בריעף פון הייליגן בעל התניא צום מעזשבוזשער ז"ל איז מוראדי'ג והם קילוירן לעינים, חאטשע איך האב איהר שוין גיזען פון פריער, אויכעט די ווערטער פון ר"א קאליסקער ז"ל אין דעם ענין, אבער במיוחד די ווערטער פונם היילין בארדיטשובער דער גרויסער מלמד-זכות! לבש מעיל של קנאות! אין רופט אנ די מחרחרים "אנשים רעים בני בליעל, ריקים בלי דעת ותורה, מוציאי-דבה, אשר שננו כחרב לשונם משך שנים רבות" !!!, דאס אלעס אויף בס"ה "חסידישע יודן" רובם קאליסקער חסידים, נישט קיין פושעים וכופרים מזרע עמליקים ציונים! מיט זייערע פרומע נאכשלעפערס. וד"ל

mezebish'er said...

Hirshel with his Under Siege mentality is applying the סברת בת היענה If he will not accept even a perceived negetive comment on his tribe, but he will accept the most deragotary comments on others! Than his will stay in tact! like it depends which gogol is what according to the opinion of a Goat! with or without a beard!

tibi Lotzi said...

Moshe Moshel
"No. Because he was "Modern Orthodox" in spite of being a gaon and R' Chaim's grandson."
why is he more orthodox then reb Itche Hutner??
Didnt they both learn secular studies?
Didnt bucherim from chaim berlin go to college?
I think Reb Itche was awhile a disciple of Rav Kook? RJBS was never into the Kook hashkofa?

Tibi Lotzi said...

Kalisker fun amohol
Rebbes even they were Ohavie yisroel for Reshoim were still very very Makpid on the behaviour of the close ones, (Just study parshas Bardichev/Bitchoch)on this issues Chasidim say Bemifle Mimcho al Tidrosh. But the Brisker of Boston was a litvak, and he looks they way it is.

Superintendant Chalmers said...

Snagville,

Which seforim did your Rebbe go through?

There is a major difference between the quality of Rav Soloveitchik's own writings and the writings of others recording his chiddushim. His own writings (compiled in Igros Hagrid) are on a level comparable to Chiddushei Rabbeinu Chaim Halevi, Chiddushei Maran Riz Halevi and Chiddushei HaGram.
(And I have heard, from reliable witnesses, that the Soloveitchiks in Yerushalayim have made similar complimentary statements about Igros HaGrid.)
The Gadlus in Igros HaGrid is evident to anyone capable of understanding it.

Tibi Lotzi said...

Snagville
"I had a VERY chassidishe Rebbi in Yeshiva who went through a lot of RYBS Torah and thought of most of it to be quite elementary"
what a Goan your rebbe was, that RJBS is juvenile for him. I would really like to see your rebbes mature chidushim. Asrie Hador that we have your Rebbe between us. He competes with a goan that the whole world of yesteryear as Reb Chaim and Reb Moshe were in awe of his gadlus.

beliner said...

"I think Reb Itche was awhile a disciple of Rav Kook? RJBS was never into the Kook hashkofa?"

Sorry, No comparison*!

במקום שבעלי תשובה עומדים, אין
צדיקים גמורים יכולים לעמוד

*Wikipedia
A Rosh Yeshiva of Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary at Yeshiva University in New York City, advocated a synthesis between Torah scholarship and Western, secular scholarship! ordained close to 2,000 rabbis, Rc"l!

גדי בן סוסי said...

Tibi Lotzi : "Rebbes even they were Ohavie yisroel for Reshoim were still very very Makpid on the behaviour of the close ones, (Just study parshas Bardichev/Bitchoch)on this issues"

He is talking like an ass again! btw when S"R said on the belzer and gerrer צו זעצט זאל'ן זיי ווערן
is it like the bardivicher saying that on mezritsher & kalisker chasidim!?

you say: "Chasidim say Bemifle Mimcho al Tidrosh" is that a new kook torah?

Anonymous said...

When RYSB came to the USA, he seemed to affiliate with aguda. As aguda led by RAK moved more right, he leaned more to mizrachi. IMHO they never forgave him for that, and since none of the RY came close to him in depth of learning, they were merachek him every way possible. All the tainos about yu rabbonim are a red herring. many 40's and 50's CB & TV talmidim went off, & yu is not different.
the ultimate chutzpa was the infamous obit in the jewish observer that was tactless and disgusting to any fair minded person.

snagville said...

I just want to clarify that I personally love his Torah. Just that there is some questions among scholars about his work. Regarding the comment that the Solvetchiks of Yerusalayim raving about him, just know that this indicates that a)blood is thicker than water & b)they don't know what to do with him. If you have discussed RYBS with any family members from Israel they clearly display an Emperor has no Clothes understanding of their relative.

moshe moshel said...

Lonely man of confusion, I mean faith, brought him no accolades from olam hayeshivos.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

exactly the point. They go through all of his writings looking for rscheyreh because they're afraid

Bar bie Rav said...

Beliner
"
במקום שבעלי תשובה עומדים, אין
צדיקים גמורים יכולים לעמוד"
what makes you think that RJBS did not do Teshuva????

Anonymous said...

"I had a VERY chassidishe Rebbi in Yeshiva who went through a lot of RYBS Torah and thought of most of it to be quite elementary"
then apparently your VERY chassidishe rebbi must have been either an idiot or he was so much greater than one of the biggest geniuses in the last century. maybe you let us know who your very chassidishe rebbi was so we can all gain from his vast knowledge

moshe moshel said...

Everyone admits that in "learning" he was a gaon. The problems were with the rest of his persona.

Bar Ilan said...

Moshe Moshel
" The problems were with the rest of his persona."
You think he had less Yiras Shomaim the Rav AJ or his father Reb Berel

moshe moshel said...

more than aj, less than r berel.

Yanover said...

i think its funny that people think they can weigh merits of tzadikim. you know the scales of judgement in heaven?

do tell me what my chelek is in heaven or hell.

btw steinsalz isnt completely out the oylams window. My Admo"r told me to learn his perush on gmara, and he himself learns it.

select profile said...

Did you admor go through the traditional yeshiva system? Partners in Torah can get him a tutor so he should be able to learn on his own.

Btw, does he use rabbi frand in print as his source to inspirational talks at his tish?