Tuesday, November 13, 2012

הרב הישיש ר' דוד טעבלי קצנילינבוגן ע"ה פון לענינגראד אטאקירט די ליובאוויטשער חסידים אין רוסלאנד, זאגט אז אלץ וואס זיי טוהען איז נאר צו געוועלטיגן אף די קהלות



מכתב מהר"ר דוד טעבלי קצינילנבוגן משנת תר"צ לנכד גיסו הרב אליעזר סילווער נגד חב"ד

This "polemic" letter is now on sale - or was sold on November 6th, rather. A quick search will show you that RDTK was at odds with the FR about other issues, such as the Leningrad אסיפת הרבנים in 1927. The fact that the asifa went on was to happen despite the FR's opposition shows us that there were differences of opinion on Rabbinic matters and Rabbonim didn't necessarily heed his words. There the  פריערדיגע רבי נ"ע shows respect to RDTK by saying that they "managed to drag the elderly Gaon Reb Dovid Tevel into this and to support the asifah, despite the damage it will do." I was hesitant to put this up, because of what letters like these bring out among some of our readers, but I believe most of you can see the letter for what it's worth. Misinformed. I doubt RDTK knew what was going on hundreds of miles away in the towns and villages of white Russia and the Ukraine. Nigleh  - גפ"ת - was very much studied in Lubavitcher Yeshivos, just as it is today. Many, many talmidei chachomim were produced in those Yeshivos. I'm not sure who was feeding him this information, but it doesn't make him look good. And I VERY seriously doubt that they were becoming Rabbonim and Shochtim under threat of imprisonment and death just to chap nefashos for Lubavitch... Just my hunch. I also wonder about what he says about the money not reaching the Yeshivos... which Yeshivos existed in 1930 other than Lubavitch. I may be mistaken, but I know of none. Novardhok had escaped over the border to Poland, and all of the others were in Poland, Latvia or Lithuania. I was going to name this post "Old time Litvishe Rabbonim believed very much what today's Yeshivaleit believe," but then I changed it to something nice and benign. I figured that would show the readers that I have only love in my heart.

Wiki page of RDTK


55 comments:

Yanover said...

sounds like the claim that chabad likes to take over kehillos, take over mosdos and convert everyone to nusach ari.

All yeshivos were closed down by the yesveksia (jewish communist group) early on in the 20's and 30's.

But it is true that it wasnt JUST lubavitch that had underground yeshivos and hatzola in USSR. That is one thing that people find irksome that chabad takes all the credit for Soviet jews cause.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

who else had Yeshivos?

Anonymous said...

case in point?

http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=22628&alias=what-wiesel-sharansky-forgot

no notable names but there were local chedorim and mosdos that went underground. like the matisovskim in Gur in the war.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

we're speaking about the Soviet Union, not WW2

Anonymous said...

My family was pretty close to the Gedolei Yisroel in Leningrad at that time, and while Reb Dovid Tevele was respected as a huge Talmid Chochom (and the Rebbe Rayatz supported him from the funds which were available to him), פקחות was never his specialty.

There's is a very interesting story told by the Rebbe about that era, about a great Talmid who spoke of himself as אן אלמער מלא ספרים, and the Rebbe emphasizes that the Rebbe Rayatz went out of his way to give him kovod and money to support him and his yeshivos.

Tamula said...

Tamula only promotes an agenda, it does not create fact,nor negate fiction
Your theory that if it aint written it didn't happen, is a reflection of the present status of lubavitch, drowning in its self serving propaganda

Anonymous said...

Im not speaking of WW2 either. just brought up matis gelman as a comparison.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

but there is no comparison, you see.

So do tell me, where were this other Yeshivos that RDTK wanted them to get (some of) the money?

Anonymous said...

there is a comparison. Gelman and FR both operated yeshivos in attics and cellars under oppressive circumstances.

IYH ill get back to you this evening re: yeshivos in USSR that werent chabad.

moshe moshel said...

Nigleh  - גפ"ת - was very much studied in Lubavitcher Yeshivos, just as it is today.

If that was true, talmidei chachomin would not have sent their talmidim/chasidim to learn there, as they did.

Non members of many a chasidus has joined another yeshiva for their style or quality of learning. Nobody is joining chabad of today from any yeshiva for that reason.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

go away, Moshel, or stick to the topic, not some side point.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Mr. ANONYMOUS (please choose a name)

and Reb Akiva also studied and taught Torah during the Roman reign. But that's beside the point. Get me that list, please. I'll be very glad to post it.

moshe moshel said...

I understand that you don't like what he wrote, but where do you get the gall to call him a liar from!?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I called him a liar?!

moshe moshel said...

1. And I VERY seriously doubt that they were becoming Rabbonim and Shochtim under threat of imprisonment and death just to chap nefashos for Lubavitch... Just my hunch.
2. I also wonder about what he says about the money not reaching the Yeshivos... which Yeshivos existed in 1930 other than Lubavitch. I may be mistaken, but I know of none.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

not a liar. MISINFORMED.

schneru said...

This is an example of why blogs are not the correct place to discuss history.
There is background to all of this, the Leningrad community was composed of modern people at least its leadership. They believed that working with the Soviet govt rather than confrontation was the proper way, a rather naive proposition.(of course w e know that as Monday morning qbs)
They thought they could get the govt. to authorize a Modern yehsiva to train rabbis as well as a federation of Soviet Jewish kehilloth and they wanted a share of the Joint's monies that were funding much of the Rebbe's works.Rav K was probably just a old rav used by these people to give them a rabbinic face.
But all of this needs to be placed in the perspective that this was happening during the NEP reforms when the Soviet govt permitted many economic and social reforms. Among them was the SEMI legal status of the cEntral Lubavitcher yeshiva in nNevel. the govt knew it was there but did not act against it until several years alter when Father Stalin finished off the NEP.Thus these Jews in leningrad thoguht they had room to manuever.
By 1926 Lubavitch was the sole address for rEligion for Jews in the uSSR. There was LOCALIZED resistance ont eh parts of many rabbis (ie Rabbi Y Abramsky, Rabbi Cymbalist in Minsk etc) buta s afr as an organzied effort at resistance only Lubavitch was there an dmost ORTHODOX JEws saw Rayaatz as the elader of Soviet Jewry even if you studied Nefesh hachaim. There were smaller groups of resisotrs like the Bratzlover chassiidm and orhtoodx Jews in Soviet Asia and there too Chabad was very active.
Rabbis K's brother was the bar pelugta of the Ridbaz (Rav Hakollel of Chicago) and rav in Chicag rabbi Alboim

moshe moshel said...

Misinformed is a polite way of saying "he's a liar by accident".

Perhaps explore what led him to believe the information he had.

I too find the letter shocking, but you can't just dismiss it because of dislike for the contents.

Tomashover said...

Moshe Moshel
"If that was true, talmidei chachomin would not have sent their talmidim/chasidim to learn there, as they did."
Why should a Misnaged sent his son to a chabad yeshiva?
Even if the nigleh is great, but he still has a misnagdic yeshiva to his taste, with no Negel Vasser,Perakden,Yarmulke, Tzitzis pressure (at Nite), Its pure torah and fun.
How are you proving that Chabad was weak in Nigleh?
In Poland chabad was very strong in getting Boys from non chabad families,Inj its short time of existence it had more then 2000 talmidim.I guess the parents were no misnagdic as in the Lita

moshe moshel said...

Would love to read more about that.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

a liar is one who does it knowingly. RDTK has the BOTD and is just plain misinformed.

Tomashover said...

Tamula
"Tamula only promotes an agenda"
A agenda for torah and yiddishkiet is a fact or fiction?

moshe moshel said...

Farkert, in poland the chabad yeshiva in otvotzk was so succesful because of its very high standard of learning, that was my point.

Tomashover said...

Moshe Moshel
"Misinformed is a polite way of saying "he's a liar by accident".
What word would u use for misinformed with no intention to frame the person as Lying...,
I think that Hirshel used the correct PC word

Tomashover said...

Moshe Moshel
"Farkert, in poland the chabad yeshiva in otvotzk was so succesful because of its very high standard of learning, that was my point."
and what do you know about the Russian tomchei Temimim?

schneur said...

Otwock successful in learning . The real success of the Luabvitcher yeshiva in Poland was the fact taht poor bachurim had 2 decent meals a day and a place to sleep. I once asked the old Naroler rav ZTL about the derech halimmud before the war in Poland and he told me what I wrote the derech halimmud was 2 square meals and ageleger that was the function of msot yeshivoth. Stop with the propoganda.Its like Radomsk and the kibbutz in Sosnovitz, Lublin, the Mesivta (Warsaw,) Piasetzna Bobover yeshivos,the Litvisher yeshiva in Lodz etc etc were secondary in lomdus vemen varkeyft men did lokshen ?Polsih bachurim who wnated to learn in the more analytic manner went to the Kressy to Mir, Kletzk, Kaminetz, etc and by 1939 there were plenty of chassiidc bachurim there.Lubavitch in Otwock was no worse or no better than other yeshivas in Poland and of course Chachme Lublim was in its own category.

moshe moshel said...

Why did he believe the information he had, is the context we are missing here.

Knowing that will answer whether or not he was misinformed or laying bare a hard truth.

I know as much as the next gut about tomchei tmimim in europe, met my fair share of graduates. The point I made before was that tomchei tmimim in poland especially was known for its excellence.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what context, exactly???

moshe moshel said...

The issue at hand is, why did he believe what he wrote.

Ok, he was misinformed, by a 1/4 by half, but to be "totally" off base, as is the assumption here. Just begs the question. Where else was ezras torah $ supposed to go in his opinion and why he thought what he did of the chasidim there.

The whole narrative has to be painted in a manner that makes sense from both sides.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so Ezras Torah was duped into sending money to these devious Lubavitchers, and only RDTK knew the TRUTH???

Anonymous said...

schneur said...
Otwock successful in learning . The real success of the Luabvitcher yeshiva in Poland was the fact taht poor bachurim had 2 decent meals a day and a place to sleep."

WADR, you're mixing up some yeshivas. TT in warsaw, chelm, lodz may have been that style, but otwock was on a much higher level. it was very hard for a non-lubavitcher bochur to get in. The FR specifically wanted otwock to be different, and he set it up to be a high caliber no nonsense yeshiva. The food there was very shvach, compared to other yeshivas, as recounted by some of the bochurim who learned there. The Imrei Emes gave in his yeshivas very good food as an incentive to keep his chassidim close.

I don't have any insight into YCL, but i suspect the learning level there was on par with the finest litvishe yeshivas.

moshel moshel said...

Hey, I don't know, zug di pshat.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I already did.

Achiezer said...

at that era when Yeshivas, Shuls and Mikvehs were closing down left and right, it is irresponsible to argue how deep the learning is in a particular yeshiva?
it was a life and death issue for the total picture of yiidishkiet. And a Ruv is arguing on Devorim Shema Bekach.

moshe moshel said...

Your pshat doesn't answer the questions raised as to why he should have held those beliefs.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I might add that R Eliezer Silver didn't seem to believe what his elter feter wrote. I say this based on his close relationship with the FR until his passing in 5710.

moshe moshel said...

Maskim.

Anonymous said...

"I might add that R Eliezer Silver didn't seem to believe what his elter feter wrote. I say this based on his close relationship with the FR until his passing in 5710."

Tell me:Do you think before you write???

Stam azoi, what exactly was the point of this post? Dredge up old fights?
Why are you such a brainless ass?
You and the gemaineh punem chadushes fellow who davened by Menashe Hakuten, have a lot in common besides having davened in the same place.
Please.....


Aizik


yankel said...

Herschel, do you think that if RDTK was correct, RES should have cut off all ties with the FR? I didn't know you to be such an extremist, or to project such extremism on others.
The irresponsibility of discussing derech halimud is an extremely small view. He is saying that the only way to fight the Bolshevik's influence is through yeshivos learning Torah. If shochet bodek etc. is the only item on the curriculum, we will not have grounded frummer yidden to continue Judaism. This isn't a derech halimud fight. This is ikarei hadas.

kapisnitzer said...


You'all are treading water history is over! no more jewish history, you're all twisting in the wind.

moshe moshel said...

Hirshel, are there any pictures of R Aron kotler with the frierdike rebbe?

Gedalya said...

Moshe Moshel,
You are getting on Hirshels nerves.
You challenge him, you do it, while keeping civil and he can't keep up his "shlichus" and paid p.r job of trying to keep up the flames of a 200 hundred year old machlokes.
The "trauma" of R'Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin being helped out almost exclusively by American Yated and the Lakewood community to the tune of millions of $$$ is screwing thins up in the "propaganda" department, requiring some "digging" in archives to come up with some more "hate"

Meantime the only real hater is the Tzig himself.
We need to help him grow up (or whoever it is that is programming him)
I notice that he has had very little to nothing to say about the big Kinnus , probably because it was not very successful this year, so his childish drives are again coming out the woodwork

Doom If U Do said...

Aizik
"Why are you such a brainless ass?
You and the gemaineh punem chadushes fellow who davened by Menashe Hakuten, have a lot in common besides having davened in the same place."
I usualy see on this site that that Chabad is getting maligned for faux PR, Hagiography, so Now when they want to show that there was some opposition, .. you curse like a drunken sailor...

ש. דזיגאן said...

Tayerer Hirshel
It seems like some of the facts about the assifah have slipped your mind. For starters, the assifah did ‎not take place b”h, according to the frierdiker rebbe who writes so in his reshimos of the time, printed ‎in sefer hasichos 5680-87 page 180 ‎‏"ועתה כאשר מסיבות שונות לא בא הדבר לידי פועל ת"ל" ‏‎ ayen shom. ‎
Also, the FR doesn’t necessarily remember him mamash lishvach, as you can tell by what he wrote ‎‎(printed in sefer hasichos 5680-87 page 180):‎
‏"והרה"ג רד"ט שי' לא שם לבו לזה, ביותר - כפי מה שאמר לי א' הרבנים שי' הנ"ל מפורש – דכוונתו היא לנגד ‏לי, דמאחר שאני הנני נגד האסיפה כללית איננו חפץ להכניס עצמו בעצם הענין אם טובה היא או ח"ו הפכו, ורק ‏כאשר דעתי שאין צריכים מוכרח הוא להיות עם האומרים על הן"‏
Veod lehoir: Rabbi Silver was instrumental in getting the skulener rebbe out of Romania. All his peulos ‎lo nossu peri and he wasn’t successful in convincing the soviet Romanian government to let him go. As ‎he was about to give up he got a phone call from rabbi chadakov to go to Washington immediately in ‎order to do hishtadlus so the SR could get out. He listened, went, on the plane he met his friend the ‎senator of Ohio (rabbi silver was rov of Cincinnati kayadua) who inquired why he was so tzutrogen, so ‎he told him the whole hishtalshelus hadvorim. The senator promised to squeeze the soviet ‎ambassador vechulu, and within a very short time the SR landed in the U.S. This I heard from rabbi ‎silvers nephew. ‎
That said, thanks for heeding my advice to get back to the saftige zachen. Veda”l.‎

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

אדאנק אייך שמעון
וואס מאכט עפעס שומאכער?

yechiel said...

"That said, thanks for heeding my advice to get back to the saftige zachen. Veda”l.‎"

saftigeh zachen? now what do you mean by that?
dredging up old history to cause fights?
you must be a lubab.for shame

schneur said...

Otwock annonymous C'mon why are you writing about things you do not know about.You are making up facts so to speak
In all of Congress Poalnd before 1920 ther ewere a few dozen Lubavitcher chassidim outside of the vilna area. In Otwock there were hardly ANY bachurim from Chabad families because there were NO LO VELO Chabad chassidim in Polabnd and Galicia. There were afew bachurim there from the vilna area there. But most of the chabad bachurim from the Vilna area did not go to Otwoc either . becuas ethe levush there was Pellish. So they went to Litvishe yeshivas(why did the Rayaatz send the razag on th emission) or the frumer bachurim went to Novoreduck.
90 plus of all the bachurim in Otwocck were from non Chabad families and afew years back a Chabad publication her ein the US published a questionairre the Rayaatz wanted filled out by the hanhola baout the students in Otwocka nd he wanted to know which chassiidus the guys fatehr belonged to, and few if any had any Chabad connection. So you are hocking a cheinuk when you say itw a shard for a non Chabad person to be accepted. Aderabbe they all were non Chabd ieAmshinover, Gerer Radziner, Strikover, Sochochover etc etc/ Are any of the Peylsihe guys in Montreal and 770 in the 1940
s from Chabad families ?
Next my dear friend there was no Gerer yeshiva in Poland after WW1 The Imre Emeth had no yeshiva hence he did not provide food of any calibre.
Again you are writing about a subject you seemingly know very little about. There was no GErer yeshiva in Poland
My dear friend in inter War Poland Jews hoben gestorben fun Hunger yeden tog and even a meal of Kashe and groipen was better than what was available at home.
Frankly most of the students in Otwock had trouble undertsnading the Litvishe yiddish of Rav Eber and Reb Berel Kurnizer.
The late Moshe Kroneh father of the zaddik hador Rabbeinu David Assaf writes in his memoirs that the eyelem could not understand dthe sichos of the Rayaatz for amny siboth.
Lets stick to facts They are hard enough to undertstand.

shmeryl tzeitlbeitl said...

imre emes had no yeshiva interwar time? the aleksanderer 'beis yisroel' yeshiva system and the bobover yeshivas were formed after ww1.

Tomashover said...

Schneur
"Next my dear friend there was no Gerer yeshiva in Poland after WW1 The Imre Emeth had no yeshiva hence he did not provide food of any calibre."
I am sorry to notify you that the Gererv Rebbe did try to open a yeshiva in Ger, and he ended up with 200 young bucherim, and he got disappointed and lost interest
(according to Rosh Goles Ariel vol 2)

Tomashover said...

Schneur
"Frankly most of the students in Otwock had trouble undertsnading the Litvishe yiddish of Rav Eber and Reb Berel Kurnizer."
from the Shearith Hapletah, of the chabadniks of Poland, you do see a different picture. Most of them, were nice Talmidie Chacomim, as Rav Mentlik and his Brother in Law Reb Moshe Pinchos , Rav Hendel, Rav Wienberg, Rav Kramer, Rav Gerlitzky, Rav Rubin, Rav Ryzman, Rav bukiet etc.. you do see a nice gallery of Talmidie Chachomim and Chasidishe yiden

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
i had long discussions with Rabbis SD Raichik, Yossel Weinberg, Pinchos Katz, Mendel Tenenbaum, Yitzchok Hendel, among others who learned in Otwock and survived the war. Their recollection of the yeshiva and the general pre-war matzav in poland is quite different than your 1:05 comment.
the facts are facts. Otwock opened in 1935/6. There were 3 kinds of bochurim there:
1. lubavitcher families
2. rebbishe kids.
3. great lamdonim

By summer 1936 they ran out of room in the dorm and turned away many bochurim.

BTW, many of the bochurim there did not consider themselves lubavitchers or chassidim of the FR. Otwock was a semi-resort outside of Warsaw, and many rebbes would come there for rest. Many bochurim would go to the tishen of these rebbes, which a true bred lubavitcher would look askance on.

shmuly said...

Anonymous,
Firstly please choose a name.
Secondly, Shneour knows quite well what he is talking about in general and specifically when it comes to Jewish history especially Lubavitch history.I think that R' Berel Kurnitzer,one of the keads of the yeshiva was his relative,btw.
Anyway, as Shneour has stated there were very few Lubavitchers in Poland, so your claim that one(significant) part of the bochurim came from "lubavitcher" families is fantasy.There were probably a few refugees , one or two American boys that had some Lubavitcher backround (berel levy).As Shcheour stated, Lubavitcher from Lita went mostly to Litvishe yeshivas, especially since Lithuania and Poland were technically at war with each other.(not vilna which was in poland)R'Shmuel Levitins boys studied in Telz.
I don't think the next two "groups" you claim have any more than a kernel of truth.The great lamdonim and rebbishe.I don't think they were represented in any greater measure than other places, and not evenclose to Chachmei Lublin.
Many boys were the same backround as the Montreal Lubavitchers, none "rebbishe", i don't even think any would be classified as "great lamdonim" either.They were fine, ehrliche yidden with messiras nefesh, who became very Lubavitch, others who learned there had a soft spot for Chabadbut did not become card carrying lubavitchers.
One bochur that studied there at the time told me that his father was a gerer, and since it was almost impossible to get into Chachmei Lublin, he went to Lubavitch in otvock, which was a good yeshiva and had r'yudel ebber who was a gaon and big fan of r'shimon shkop as rosh yeshiva.when r'shimon came to otvock once r'yudel took the talmidim to meet him (mipi R'Avrohom Yitzchok Garfinkel z"l who was my rebbi in high school on ocean parkway and one of the best younger boys in otvock and shanchai)

tomosahver said...

Shmuly
"Many boys were the same backround as the Montreal Lubavitchers, none "rebbishe", i don't even think any would be classified as "great lamdonim" either.They were fine, ehrliche yidden with messiras nefesh, who became very Lubavitch"
Rav Hendel,Rav Mentlik,Rav Riechik,Rav Bukiet, Rav gerlitzky, were all serious Talmidie Chachomim, Rav Riechik was famous to know the whole Ketzois baal peh, Being a chasidishe yid does not make you a am horetz...

schneur said...

Rabboseinu. So where was there a Gerer yeshiva after World war 1 except for Jslm ? And who was the rosh yeshiva ?
Check out the questionaire given to Rayaatz about the talmidim in Poland exactly how many came from Lubavitcher families. This was publsihed ina new publication called HeACh 9not to be confused with the old periodical by the same name)
The yeshiva was comprised mostly of Peylishe bachurim just like the navorhodok yeshivas in Poland after 19212 were filled with Peylishe and Galitzianer bachuriom ?
Fianlly were any of the fathers of the follwoing men Chabad peoepl Yossel Weinberg Reitchik, Kramer, Hendel, The Rebbe's mekubal, etc etc Only R. Ushpoll and perhaps mentelik were Chabad chassidim maybe another (Fuchs). The aprents represented the whole rainbow of Polsih chassidim Amshinov, Vorka, Porisov, Sokolov, radomsk, etc etc

schneur said...

Tomashover yOu are speaking in a period before WW1 the Rebbe's brother ran a yeshiva. THERE was no Gerer yeshiva after World war 1 perhaps an attempt at one...