Tuesday, May 27, 2014

הגראי"ל שטיינמן: בלתי אפשרי לחכות לביאת המשיח • האזינו


Source

 This may be difficult for some of you to believe; but I didn't post this to make fun or to point fingers. I was not trying to point out that "Litvaks don't believe in Moshiach." It never crossed my mind until one of you who thought you know what's in my mind brought it up. I saw it as a limmud zechus! That he realized that many of us have a hard time with this Ikkar, and he was "defending" that difficulty. It was not an attack on him, nor were we trying to point out any weakening of his abilities because of age, etc. RALS needs nobody's haskomoh.

30 comments:

Yidel Varter said...


The following is the Satmer Rebbes opinion why Advocating Herzl’s plan toestablish a Jewish government without Messiach, is in violation with 2 of the 13 principles of the Jewish religion A) . Hashem punishes, B) Waiting for Meshiach,
1) It is important to remember that Jewish Sovereignty over Eretz Yisroel is CONDITIONAL!!!!
2) It so happened that in the covenant of Hashem with our father Abraham, it was agreed that THE punishment for violating the Jewish faith, would be Exile/Gules,
6) The ReShab Writes a warning for our days :
"That even if the Hertzel plan would achieve their
goal, we must not listen to them in this matter "to make our redemption with our own power".
7) Soany one who is ONLY in the OPINION that Meshiachs JOB may be achieved without him, is JUST Not waiting for him and is an Apikoires, and The punishment for contemplating the Herzel plan is pre warned,
Please be open minded by joining the Satmers in prayers, that Hashem should not punish us again, because of
those who are actively Non-Waiters
Yidel Varter

Luzer M said...

the site that publicized it, is a hapeles site?

Moshe gabai said...

yidel
what about having our own country and still waiting for Moshiach and waiting for the Geula
Is it in violation with the 13 principles?

retach said...

can you put the main thrust of what r' s. is saying into text please?
Thanks

Montrealer said...

Amazing how he knocks off the Rambam. I wonder how he explains כי לישועתך קיווינו כל היום etc.

nebach said...

the source has the text

אלע שונאים זאלען פלאצען said...

Hirshel, you found a new site in Eretz Yisroel that hates the snags, and tries to bashmutz them, to partner with?

Imagine if your Rebbe was alive now, and people started taping his private conversations, at an advanced age, and disseminating them, with all the new electronic gizmos around today.

ר' שטיינמאן שליט"א הוא ישר ודבריו ישרים. צדיקים ילכו בם ושונאים יכשלו בם

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

chas vesholom!

Reb Aron Leib is the gadol haDor!

Yidel Warter(correction) said...


The following is the Satmer Rebbes opinion why Advocating Herzl’s plan to establish a Jewish government without Messiach is in violation with 2 of the 13 principles of the Jewish religion 1) . Hashem punishes, 2). Waiting for Meshiach,

1) It is important to remember that Jewish Sovereignty over Eretz Yisroel is CONDITIONAL!!!!

2) It so happened that in the covenant of Hashem with our father Abraham it was agreed that the
punishment for violating the Jewish faith, would be Exile/Gules,

3) Hashem told us thru our NeVeim that the redemption of the Jewish people will be by
Mesihach.

4) The Amoira Shmuel the biggest Poisek in his Generation says: That Hashems decree on us to WAIT
for Meshiach, is meant for Mesihachs SOLE ACTION to Restore A Jewish Sovereignty and to reestablish
a government ,""all other attributes to Meshiach can be (and are)disputed"",


5) The Rambam brings down LeHalucha the words of Shmuel as impartial: “Umri Chacumim” and states that
who ever does not WAIT for Mushiach (as described by Shmuel) is an Apikoires

6) The ReShab Writes a warning for our days : "That even if the Hertzel plan would achieve their
goal, we must not listen to them in this matter "to make our redemptionwith our own power"

7) So any one who is ONLY in the OPINION that Meshiachs JOB may be achieved without him, is JUST
Not waiting for him and is an Apikoires , and The punishment for contemplating the Herzel plan is pre warned,

To illustrate the above envision yourself with the following Mushel:

You see a group of people waiting at a bus stop, it is assumed that these people are waiting for a bus to arrive and to take them to a certain
destination,

A taxi drives by, and yells out : you people are waiting for noting no bus will arrive and the shelter will collapse on your head, hop in to my taxi,

First group of non waiters

A few people pass by and say we have been waiting at another stop , and the bus broke down in front of our nose so we started to walk , join us

Second group of non waiters

Another group of people come by and say: come help to push the broken bus

Third group of non waiter

A cyclist drives by, his Device blaring: we want the bus now we don't want to wait

Fourth group of non waiters

A horse and buggy passes by and yells out, I am a professional mechanic, if the bus will ever be fixed you won’t we be able to afford the fare, hop
unto my buggy,

Fifth group of non waiters

As the group of waiters dwindle ,one says to the fellow next to him , i know the bus manufacturer and his product, even i will be here by myself I will
remain waiting , the fellow replies , but explain me why did the bus manufacturer tell us to wait for a bus when he also manufactures planes trains, ships, tanks cars, bike, and scooters, and why such lousy shelters ,

The first waiter replies, I don't understand the logic behind his plan, but HE said when the bus will arrive the plan will be self-understood

WAITING is a stage of non active passive behavior.

WAITING if decreed by a SUPER BEING, has to become a frame of mind, Like it or not , practical or not,

Jews have to wait for Meshiach to create a Jewish state, creating a Jewish state without him one becomes a non- waiter , which the rambam calls
an APIKOIRES
Please be open minded by joining the Satmers in prayers, that Hashem should not punish us again, because of
those who are actively Non-Waiters

Yidel Warter

Yidel miten fiddle said...

Yidel
"
5) The Rambam brings down LeHalucha the words of Shmuel as impartial: “Umri Chacumim” and states that
who ever does not WAIT for Mushiach (as described by Shmuel) is an Apikoires"
No such Rambam,
stop spewing nonsense,
If someone believes in Moshiach he is a beliver in the principle of Moshiach, if a detail is missing he is not a apikoras.. you are or a liar or a amoretz

Yidel miten fiddle said...

Yidel
Jews have to wait for Meshiach to create a Jewish state, creating a Jewish state without him one becomes a non- waiter , which the rambam calls
an APIKOIRES"
No such rambam, you are or a am oretz or a liar.
You can create a state and still wait for moshiach and geula.

Yidel miten fiddle said...

yidel
") So any one who is ONLY in the OPINION that Meshiachs JOB may be achieved without him, is JUST
Not waiting for him and is an Apikoires , and The punishment for contemplating the Herzel plan is pre warned,"
the Rambam writes Moshiach will do Shemita and Yoivlois thats written in Torah,
so if someone will do shemita today he is a apikores, since he does the job of moshiach...
What a Am Araitzes,
The Rambam writes that Moshiach will bring back bring Mishpotim the way it was,
If someone will do Mishpotim in all of Israel according to dinai torah, nobody will use the secular Begatz, is that a apikoras to do it,since he does the job of Moshiach
What a Am Araitzes

rebcharles said...

reminds me of a joke

in a shtetl there was a yid who wasnt the greatest Yitzlach, so they gave him a job.

He was to stand in a field 2 miles away from town, and when Moshiach comes, he was to warn the townspeople.

When asked about his job, he said "The gehalt is vaynug, nur the arbet is glyachmessig (steady, bla'z )"

rebcharles said...

But seriously folks

I sincerely believe what RALS is saying is a Berdichev-ian vort

Der Golus is azoi lang in beeter, az men ken mehr nish far'langen fin Yiden as zei zullen nuch alz gloyben in Bias Moshiach.

Der einziger veg gebliben iz:
Shik Moshiach Haynt, Dan vellen mir Gloyben

RebHersh said...

I had the same thought as Rebcharles. I am pretty sure thats what he meant.

It was beloshon tefilla.

And where does tefilla come in the middle of learning ?

( Hilchos Parah Adumah 3:4 )

Not a Harry said...

Shvere maise

Anonymous said...

I forget which one but the Rishonim said this already. That a Davar Sheyesh Matirim should be Assur so all Issur wait until moshiach comes and then so the Rishon said the food will spoil until then.

Thinking Aloud said...

I am thinking as I read all the comments on this blog and all other Israeli blogs.
Which is worse?
The rational way of thinking about Moshiach as Rav Shtienman, that since we dont see no moshiach after all these years , we will believe or like Hilel or Moshiach Bo Bhesech Hadaas,or The Lubavicher Rebbes way of harping and drilling in to peoples head 24/7 about Moshiach, which ended up in to half of chabad being Moshiachists.
My answer would be that According to Halacha at least the way they learn the principle in Brisk and in Chabad that the way to go is the Lubavicher rebbes way.The end result of the Moshiachists was in no way anything against halacha. You can label them crazy loony, but noting against Shulchan Orech

Barry Jacobson said...

Is going to a doctor kefira in Rofei kol basar?

Is going to work kefira in Poseach es yadecha umasbia?

Saving lives via establishing a Medina and protecting Jews from pogroms and discrimination is also not kefira.

In addition, there is the shita of Rebbe Hillel in Sanhedrin, that there is no mashiach. I.e., we will have to be big boys and solve our own problems using our G-d given abilities. RBSH wants us to bring the geula ourselves.

obZerver said...

The medina didn't save lives, adaraba it cost 6,000 as a starter and much more later. As i wrote a few weeks ago there were alternatives and now i saw the zionist documentary Piller of Fire -7 and this proves even more.( on you tube)

rebcharles said...

i presume you mean ( Hilchos Parah Adumah 3:4 )

And the tenth (para adumah) will be brought by the king Mashiach; may he speedily be revealed. Amen, so may it be G-d's will.

Very remarkable, no para during 1st Bayis.

The first one, moshe rabbeinu's, sufficed for the entire 410 years?

Moshe Ber Beck said...

obzerver
"The medina didn't save lives, adaraba it cost 6,000 "
how much lives did the wars of Bies Mikdash Rishon cost? and how much lives did the wars of Bies Mikdash Shieni cost?
How many Jewish lives were lost in the pogroms in Ukraine Russia? for what reason?
How many US Jews died in the World war 1? World War 2? Korean War? to protect the USA.
Establishing your own country cost lives, its a fact of life, so whats your point?
that the Zionist invented wars and killing their own soldiers?

Barry Jacobson said...

In 150 years, since records began, there have been less than 25,000 soldiers and citizens killed in wars and terror attacks. While the loss of even a single life is too much to bear, but it is far less than the numbers of Jews killed during our bitter golus before there was a Medinah. Not even a comparison. And would any Jew in their right mind living in Israel today want to trade his lot for being a subject to some other ruler in history? At some point we will have to admit the truth that the Medinah has been the biggest bracha that the klal has experienced since the time of the churban.

former brisker talmid said...

אלע שונאים זאלן פלאצן said...
"Imagine if your Rebbe was alive now, and people started taping his private conversations, at an advanced age, and disseminating them, with all the new electronic gizmos around today." first off all that's precisely what they did they always recorded everything and publicized it, never have we been ashamed of anything our rebbe said and we'll never be, and yes i do think its extremely important to publicize this, i dont care who it is and what you think about him, someone that is considered a world leader that can say something that the rambam says that one who says so is a kofer בה' ובתורתו should not leader and and his opinion should not be excepted.

Shmuel said...

See R Yechezkel Sofer's take here:
http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=news&id=72449
He claim that mechake leviosoi does not refer to actual waiting...

eli said...

seriously speaking, is it even possible to talk sincerely about moshaich and not sound, um, a bit... well, you know... never mind.

CR said...

"is it even possible to talk sincerely about moshaich and not sound, um, a bit... well, you know..."

No, it isn't. Then again, talking to a universal being who remains hidden behind layers and layers of helem vehester and tzimtzumim three times a day makes little rational sense either. But we do it anyways regardless. Thank you for asking.

pitputim said...

See a Tshuva on this in Shut B'nei Bonim (I think Chelek 1) by HaGaon R' Yehuda Herzl Henkin.

obZerver said...

Barry , Mmb... What demogogry... 6 million already killed and you say so whats another 26,000... אוי לנו
There were alternatives... See עמוד האש, see meisels book or go learn history

chusid emes said...

I don't get the problem all he said is that the metzios is that people aren't actually waiting, he didn't say we don't have to.