Friday, August 8, 2014

The Satmar Rov's visit to the Belzer Rov in 1955 - Belzer version

Must-read if you're into hock like this, and especially if until now only read the Satmar version of this visit. No words are minced. It seems like the Satmar Rov took it very personally, and was visibly quite upset that the BR and the Tchebiner Rov would not accept his view on the matter. Also going as far as to tell them that they'll yet see the err of their ways and will still accept his view as daas torah. There's also the story of the SR's droshoh where he attacked the BR, and subsequently most people who attended went to ask mechilah. I don't recall ever seeing the part about Reb Meilech Ahkenazi of Melbourne being chucked out of the room.

























15 comments:

Not a Harry said...

Amazing post! See Hershel, you have got what no one's got!
Is there a good write up from the chebiner angle?

mosh friedman said...

WHAT A JOKE

mosh friedman said...

what a bunch of babies

rebcharles said...

Tayere Tzig

First , you strashe to shut down, then you come up with Belzer gems b'zeh achar zeh.

I have to attribute your yi'ush to the influence of the 9 days. And the fresh material adds to the overall aliyeh of Shabbos Nachmu.

Keep the cards and letters coming, folks.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

NAH:

Chebiner angle? I doubt they'd write about it. They say here that the SR never did go see the Chebiner Rov. Maybe he thought he wouldn't win that argument...The fact that the Belzer do write about is only because after 30+ years of independence from the Edah they have the breitkeit not to worry about retaliation.

kudos to Belz!

Avreymel said...

Tayere Hershel
I've just finished hearing the interview with the Muzhayer rebbe on the Holocaust, and what should I say, es is zeyer shayn. Thanks for bringing it here.
But the reason I am mentioning it here, is because during the interview, the Muzhayer says that the Satmerer rebbe was very right logically with his cheshben about the tziyoinim, especially when assessing their will and their plans to put an end to Torah jewry.
But, in reality, his cheshben was wrong, because lemaase there is no other place in the whole world, with so much Torah and Yiddishkeit, like in Eretz Yisrael.
(I didn't know him personally, but I imagine that as the Satmerer rebbe's nephew he probably needed some courage to say that.)
I think that the heiliger Belzer Ruv z"l saw things that may have not made sense logically, but mit zeyne heiliger oygen hot er farshtanen that things will work out differently.

russian chusid said...

we will never know the truth. both of their gaboim had negios.Foigel klapei Belzer Roov Zal and Satmar Roovs gabe to him.

Avreymel said...

Russian chusid
Maybe you can explain where negios come in here?
The Satmerer rebbe didn't have to have any gabe with negios to fight the tziyoinim. That was his personality letoyv ulmitev. Yossel Ashkenazi had nothing whatsoever to do with it. The idea that gaboim had anything to do with this whole inyen is a Satmerer invention, for the one and only reason, that they should be able to say that it isn't the Belze ruv, it's only his gabe.
Maybe the Belze ruv living in Tel Aviv was also shulem foygel? And maybe his going to the koisel was also shulem foygel?
Shtisim in narishkeyten! Anybody vus dreit zech in belz knows that there was no such thing. And as I said this whole idea of gaboim was a hamtzoeh of the Satmerer rebbe to try to minimize the hashpoeh of the Belzer ruv z"l.

Sikrik said...

Nobody was ready to talk to a person that was so sure about his view to the extent that if you dare to think different, you are a apikoras. Added to that, his temperament.All his paragraphs in his sefer VM start Veili Apikorsim Aheomrim, you are a apikoras even for asking.These are not my words, Reb Yakov Kamenitzky told him that, after he asked him, how come nobody answered my sefer.(Domsoi Lesomor Satmar BB)
The Belzer Ruv was a Rach Halievuv,could not handle this temperament and anger, and so was the Chebiner Ruv, he was the goan hadoir answering all the Shailos Agunas and Choshen Mishpat question of the generation, but could not answer the non issur of the 3 oaths.

Sikrik said...

Avremel
" the Muzhayer says that the Satmerer rebbe was very right logically with his cheshben about the tziyoinim, especially when assessing their will and their plans to put an end to Torah jewry.
But, in reality, his cheshben was wrong, because lemaase there is no other place in the whole world, with so much Torah and Yiddishkeit, like in Eretz Yisrael.
(I didn't know him personally, but I imagine that as the Satmerer rebbe's nephew he probably needed some courage to say that.)
I think that the heiliger Belzer Ruv z"l saw things that may have not made sense logically, but mit zeyne heiliger oygen hot er farshtanen that things will work out differently. "
I did not listen, I have no patience to listen, I can read alot but no patience to listen.
I am shocked from the quote that you put in your comment.
The Muzhayer was considered the front runner nephew by the extreme Satmarers and the Rebetzins people.
The Birech Moshe had the same views officially till 1979, he was a big Chusid of the Belzer Ruv,I think he of his father RYD, was his Sandek in Ratzfert and was very pragmatic, no ideological blood in his veins.

Koychav miYankev said...

You call the Tchebiner a rach levav?

I dunno bout that. When he was young he went to a lamed vovnik in Warsaw to out him to his face. The lamed vovnik was quite upset and told the Tchebiner to take a hike. The Tchebiner begged him to tell him chiddushei Torah before he left.

sikrik said...

Koychav miYankev
Being a sharp witty galiciyaner boy is no contradiction to Rach Lievuv

Fred said...

The real story:

The Belzer Ruv and the Tchebiner Ruv both refused to sign for bechiros before the other did.

People liked to each and said the other did. So they both signed..
End of story.

A shame and a b roch for klall yisruel.

Avreymel said...

Fred
All the other stories have already been opgefregt, so you're going for something new?
I must say that you satmere are being very creative.
Maybe you can explain to anoshim pshutim like me what the big broch is?
Toire chasiddes and yiddishkeit is b"H thriving in Eretz Yisrael, so yelamdini rabeini heichen habroch.
But, it's a waste of time with you satmere, you'd prefer that yiddishkeit zol intergeyn, abi rabeini hakudesh zol zeyn gerecht.

Not a Harry said...

Weren't all these gaboyim sworn to secrecy about all they witnessed by the belzer ruv?
What prompted this flood of books filled with secret disclosure?