Thursday, December 29, 2005

"Alte Mirrers"

For blogger "Board of Directors", who had this to say on the Uriel Zimmer post:

"FYI: Not all of them were clean shaven, although MOST of them were.
But I can tell you that 99% of them grew beards and Peyos later on."

"THE biggest Alter Mirrer, Harav Hagoen R' Shmuel Berenbaum Shlita (Mirrer Rosh Yeshiva) has peyos.

BIG peyos."


(Photo - courtesy OORAH.org)




(Reb Shmuel Berenbaum today - CREDIT Mirrer Yeshiva News)


Can't argue that.



...............אבער אמאל




Rabbi Nachum Zev Dessler of Cleveland's "Hebrew Academy", aka Nochum Velvel, son of REED.






Summer Camp (L-R)Joshua Chinn, R. Moshe Shein, Harry Horowitz, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?,R. Simcha Weissman, Pinchas Berliner, R. Shmuel Birnbaum. Mottel Jaffe


One for the road.....



Yeshiva students and women in Mir family
(Pinchas Berliner top-left)

(Old Mirrer photos courtesy of darkwing.uoregon.edu)

and the most famous Mirrer of them all:



Schneur Zalman Rubashov, aka Zalman Shazar 3rd President of Israel, born Mir, 1885

(Photo courtesy of Shazar Center)

53 comments:

אברעמעל said...

נישט אומזינסט האט דער רבי נ"ע מייסד געווען תומכי תמימים

Hirshel Tzig said...

Avremel, you're geting too excited here.

What I'd like to know is why these Bochurim, who supposedly sat and learned 18 hours a day needed to spend sooo much time on their personal appearance?!

eli said...

HT,
Can you post a before & after picture for us unfamilar with snag luminaries?

Hirshel Tzig said...

well, first be nice, although hashem knows VML and others aren't , but try to stay away from such degrading terms.

Dessler is difficult to find. If anybody has a current Dessler pic e-mail to neveler@gmail.com

Reb Shmuel Berenbaum will do.

eli said...

Sorry, no offense please. I meant the term "Snag" in a good way.

Is the term Snag meant to be derogatory?
In this PC culture, should say Chassidically challenged"?

Hirshel Tzig said...

Snag is meant to be derogatory.

Wanna be PC? use Oilimishe, Veltishe, or Litvishe.

VML said...

The Mir in Poland had very, very few bochurim with beards.Less than a handful.The mashgiach frowned upon bochurim thinking they had reached this dargah of chitzoinius.One person who was 'allowed' was R'Chaim Shereshevsky z'l of Boro Park.
Times have changed.......
Interesting to note, that both the Yeshiva world and non Lubavitch Chasidisheh(known derogatorily by those 'loving' Lubab as 'chagas' chasidim)world have benefitted from cross pollination.The yeshiva world with lots of chitzonius, beard, peyos the Chassidim with a lot more weightiness towards in depth learning and full time kolel study.
Now we come to our Lubavitcher brethren:Stagnation and worse a slump.Levush:Cut off the peyos at some point in history for some reason (pictures of the Alter Rebbe and Zemach Zedek indicate long peyos)Modern short jacket the long traditional 'rekkel' lost at some point.Today the whole 'levush' is a joke.On the mens' side:Jeans, brown shoes, suede Modern Orthodox skullcap, colored shirts.Very Chasidish, right?Beards, while still popular are being trimmed and almost shaved off.A new style seen lately:Clean shaven, but wears a Sirtuk on shabboss!Joins the non frum BUT still Lubavitcher syndrome, common today.Lubavitch ubber alles.
I did not touch on 'learning' in Lubavitch since it does not really exist.Nor did I touch on the chasidisheh, tsinusdikeh, levush of the 'chasidestehs' since again, it does not exist.
Ober fort, LUBAVITCH UBEER ALLESSS!

oich mir said...

ouch!

vml said...

Btw,you asked for suggestions about the blog.I love you pictures!This one is not very clear though, but try and keep up WITH many more historical pics, I don't know where you unerearth them from

Hirshel Tzig said...

VML

again with the obsession?

avremel said...

VML

what you have in the Litvishe and "Chagas" velt is a big carpet covering a mound of dirt swept under it. The Levushim and everything else is a big bandage. Lubavitch has a bissel Emes in it, so the dirt shows more. Enjoy your so-called successes while you can, they won't last long.

vml said...

So Avremel, do you agree with the Mirrer yeshiva that one should not grow a 'carpet'(beards)unless he is upto it?
Wonder what happened to the 'bisel emmes' or Chabad 'mont' emmes.Gone with the wind?

avremel said...

no, VML a beard is lfi many shitos a Chiyev d'oraiso, and a trimmer is oiver , not a carpet, you oisvorf.

vml said...

I'm not sure about the 'many' shittos.Zemach Zedek is basically a da'as yochid in this inyan.

avremel said...

Yochid or Rabbim macht nit ois, it was and is the Tzelem Elokim of a Yid, and to have a Mashgiach like RYL to basically forced everyone to shave, is looney to say the least. The same for the holy Alter of Slabodke....

Hirshel Tzig said...

VML

just when you started to sound somewhat somewhat intelligent you blew it. If you'd like we could discuss all the shmootz from your Roshei Yeshivah, Rabbonim, THEIR SPOUSES, SISTERS, BROTHERS, AND FAMILY. We could then proceed to see how many of the destroyers of Yiddishkeit came from the hallowed halls of Mir, Slabodke, Volozhin and Telz, to name a few. Is that Ok with you?

vml said...

Why did you censor that comment?Scared?
I don't know how many 'destroyers' came out of the above mentioned institutions, quite a few I guess.I don't fear because we never 'fagettered' our leaders, you Lubabs are the ones that did.
As a small aside I never liked the 'shtick' of Telz.No wonder somebody ''attends'' the place for years but comes out a complete ignorant ingrate.No wonder it's on its last legs when it had such a headstart on everybody else.This despite having some of the best magidei shiur in America and other very 'tayereh yidden'

oich mir said...

Hey what did i miss? what was censored? hirshel was it that good?

Hirshel Tzig said...

I have seen and read too much to be scared, but a little class never hurt anybody.

Telz, mein shtetele Telz!

so let me get this straight: The "fargetterung" of Lubavitch is what hurt it? and Telzer shtick hurt them? how long have you worked on these theories?

Hirshel Tzig said...

oich mir

miss a little and you miss a lot, You snooze you lose!

:)

vml said...

Let's focus on Lubavitch for a sec.
Why do you think you are the only group that believes its rebbe is all or some of the following Moshiach/alive 'forever and ever'/Creator of the world?
You made him into a 'getsckeh' bechayov, you made the unbelievable statements about his shver that he was the 'leader of the generation' in a generation with REAL talmidei chachomim like Chofetz Chaim,Imrei Emme,R'Chaim Oizer.For this filthy 'gayva' you are 'rewarded' with some disciples worshipping avodo zoro and the rest 'stam naronim and meshugoim'
Lubavitch used to 'monn emmes', long time ago, though...........

avremel said...

so let me get this straight Mr. VML

You're saying :

1) Chabad is terrible because people are modern, messianists, and unlearned

2) Litvishe are great because they grow beards and peyos

3) Chagas is great because they learn in kolel

Is that a correct assumption?

Also: we're to say that so-called successes on the part of the Yeshiva world are good and here to stay based on 15-20 years?

vml said...

I never said the Litvishe are 'great'
I pointed out that they are not stagnant. I.e they have learned to see an importance in a very yiddisheh levush.
Same for the rest.I don't see things in your light of 'we are better'.Every kraiz has 'ma'alos'.Our avodoh is to try and pick up the positive from every group

avremel said...

oh, so you're saying we were punished, that I can hear, at least it follows some logic, do evil get punished. Fine.

so why did G-d allow all G-d fearing Lithuanian Jews to be slaughtered? and the Polish Jews? led by the Chofetz Chaim and The Imrei Emes, the real leaders?

Why was the Mir saved? why not Ponovezh/ Slabodka/Telz? Oh! I forgot Telz got what it deserved too, for being shticky.

Is there any proof the IE knew how to learn?

RIETSguy said...

Mr. VML

I've been watching you rant and rave for a while now, and needless to say I'm quite disgusted with your behavior. Woe is to a generation that has you as one of its drumbangers. I hope you don't represent any train of thought.

Board Of Directors said...

FYI: The old black & white photo of bochrim in "summer camp" does NOT have R' Shmuel Berenbaum in it.

How do I know? Because I have in my possesion every single photo that was evr taken of them in those days, and R' Shmuel then wrote on the back of each one who each person was / is.

Just thought that I'd point that out to ya.

Also, a good part of the Alter Mirrer came from Chassidishe homes. And in Baranovitz where the Kovetz Shiurim (R' Elchonon Wasserman ZATZAl - The Chofetz Chaim's Talmud Muvhak) lived, the Slonimer Rebbe lived too (I think it was the Nisivos Sholom....maybe) and R' Elchonon used to go talk to him in learning all the time.
On that note, R' Shmuel told me that when he learned in Baranovitz prior to going to the Mir, he used to frequently talk to him in learning.
ALSO in Shang Chai the Amshinover Rebbe was there and the bochrim & Roshei Yeshiva used to be very close with each other.

SO STOP with this Misnagid Bul S**** because it practicly doesnt exist. All Litvishe Rabbonim today are Machshiv all Chassidish Rabbonim.
Now if you ask why dont they learn Tanya in the Mir for example? I can tell you that R' Shmuel Berenbaum got to Sar Hatorah (Please see Igros Moshe) in America without learning Tanya all day long. As a matter of fact, there are thousands of Chassidsh bochrim and Yungerleit that have learned in The Mir.


Gotta run....

bpunbound said...

Hirshel,

This must be a new record. You start a post at 12:04 and less then 5 hours later, already 24 posts!

bpunbound said...

Ober vas is der groisah hispaylus, az der R"M'n fun Beis Medrash Gevoi'ah zenen geven u'ge'gul'ta!

Farsheit'zich, heint is andresh. Heint is zeirer davenen' a lang'a un a heis'a, un der board a sheina.

...Ober amul, is der davenen' geven a schneler un a kalta...un der punim a glata.

Times change.

Cool Jo said...

Its NOT reb shmuel Berenbaum in that picture.

Stick to Lubavitchers.

DONT trust the website that you STOLE it from.

bisheim omroi said...

Shouldn't the sources for pictures be given and credited ? Haoimer dovor bisheim omroi meivi geula lioilom. If we want Moshiach bikoroiv, maybe it would be a good idea to be makpid in that inyan. All the shouting of we want Moshiach now hasn't worked yet, maybe something else should be tried.

C said...

It seems that you started this site to fight Tzemach, but it's focus has changed to snag-bashing and bashing other Chassidesen. Maybe the address should be changed to www.antisnag.blogspot??

Did R. Nochum Dessler learn in Mir ? Anyway, it should be Nochum Zev (Nochum Velvel) - not Nochum Dov. Nochum Ber iz der Boyaner Rebbe.

Re the second photo - what camp is it from and when ? What year ? You sure all pictured were Mirrers ? There was no Mirrer camp then, as far as I know.

I think the attacks are getting too personal and nasty here. Is this the derech of Lubavitch ? Didn't the AR say not be mivazeh laymdei Tayreh, even if they are snags, to show restraint ? You showed some iskafya in the car of the YRCB guy, is it too much to ask for some at other times too ?

Why are you chepping with the young bochurim ? That is the shita they were taught growing up at that time as youngsters - to shave. You may not agree with that shita, but they didn't make it up. You have a machlokes with their shita, their leaders, okay. But what do you want from the then young talmidim ?

Vos vilst du fun (Yeshivas) Mir ? I can understand if you have more of a beef with YRCB. But Mir ? Or is it open season on all snags now ?

Hai Anav VTzaddik said...

once again, brilliant! I really shep nachas from this blog. the more I discover and uncover of the snag-yeshiva world that I come from, the more their hypocrisy and inconsistencies are revealed. I am thankful to have been reached and "saved" by The Rebbe.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'll answer each and every one of you, B'ezras Hashem and with the Rebbe's Brochos......

Board of Directors:

1) I cannot know whether or not it is Reb Shmuel, especially sice the picture is unclear. I had no reason to believe that the names are incorrect.

2) I did not STEAL the photos, I did credit them now, something I do most of the time, this website is somewhat nameless. Yours I simply forgot, I have no reason not to credit you.

3) YOU'RE the one who brought up Alte Mirrer, I simply posted some intersting pictures. Saying that a large part of the Bochurim were from Chassidishe homes is incorrect, although there was a group.

4) Don't bring Baranovitch into this, it's totally irrelevant, for now. Also Reb Elchonon hy"d, being a Talmid of the Chofetz Chaim probably got a better education re: Chassidim, as the CC was known to be less Misnagdish than the Mussarites.

5) In Baranovitch it was the Beis Avrohom and the Yunge Rebbe, Reb Shlomo Dovid Yehoshua, not the Nesivos Sholom, although he was a talmid there.

6) Please don't give me any history lessons, even about Litvishe Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva, I do quite well in that subject, if I may say so myself.

7) Shanghai is no proof, unless you mean how they treated Lubavitch, in which case it proves the opposite.

8) Reb Shimele of Amshinov is not who you should bring up to prove your point either, from what I heard he had no love for the Mirrer faculty.

9) I know all about the thousands of Chassidishe Bochurim who learned there, the question is what was thought of them by the faculty of the Yeshivah. Especially Mir in Yerusholayim.


I'll stop with the "Misnaged" Bullsh-- when you people will stop proclaiming to the world about the evils of Lubavitch. The biggest split in Jewry was caused by your Lithuanian buddies, who couldn't help themselves, even after working on their Middos all those years.

Hirshel Tzig said...

C

I have not resorted to any personal attacks, I respond to what is commented here. The Brisker post was an attack?

Reb NW was a Mirrer Talmid according to the website and other sources, the photo being taken in Kovno in 5700.

The pics are from a website dedicated to the town and people of Mir, some of which were Talmidim.

I am not attacking the Mirrer, why do you think I am? The shaving topic was an afterthought brought on by your friend VML.

What can I do about Tzemach's site, rehash the same stuff over and over again.

I read and enjoy Litvishe history. I just dislike the ones who made it their mission to attack Chabad, Lubavitch and the Rabbeyim. The man from Vaboilnik and Reb IZ's son-in-law come to mind. Some I just consider Baalei Gayveh, but most I have no MAJOR problem.

Mendel Wannabe said...

Why the sinas chinom?

why cant we all get along?

ACHDUS. ACHDUS. ACHDUS. ACHTUSH. ACDUSH. DACHTUSH, ASSKUSH....WHATEVER

Hirshel Tzig said...

if anybody had a doubt as to why there's a need for a positive Chabad voice in Blogosphere, this Looney just made my point for me.

vml said...

Riets GUY,
I wish you would point out what exactly bothers you about what I say.That I have a beef with a chassidus that without a drop of humility proclaims itself as the Crown of Judaism, a group that has sprouted people who call the deceased Rebbe alive,moshiach annd the creator of the world chas vesholom?I 'shtam' from Chabad and probably know them better than you.

RIETSguy said...

You shatmming from Chabad had seemingly very little effect on you, other than make you hate them for some reason. I come into contact with many Chabad Jews on a daily basis, both in the YU neighborhood and beyond. I have yet to meet such unassuming, selfless, G-d fearing Jews before. What you're saying about believing in the Rebbe as "creator" ch"v is something you and I both know has very little following in Chabad, and only amongst some self-made Russian Baalei Tshuvah.

vml said...

bpunbound said...
Ober vas is der groisah hispaylus, az der R"M'n fun Beis Medrash Gevoi'ah zenen geven u'ge'gul'ta!

Farsheit'zich, heint is andresh. Heint is zeirer davenen' a lang'a un a heis'a, un der board a sheina.

...Ober amul, is der davenen' geven a schneler un a kalta...un der punim a glata.

Times change.

BP,
As far as I know nothing in the length of davening has changed in Kletzk/Lakewood.It has and always was a long yeshivish davening .
Lubavitch however has had a massive change.While once you had 'oivedim' who davened for hours and were respected even in oilem hayeshivas todays Lubab are a bunch of 'ausgefresseneh leidigayers' who get up late, ruSh to 'fres' before davening at 10/11 am at best.

vml said...

Riets guy,
Point out to me anything I said that raised your ire.
If you know anything about Christianity, it also developed slowly:You are not at all bothered by a couple of people saying the laTE Rebbe was a deity.Ok.Are you ok with thousands of people proclaiming that the Rebbe lives 'forever and ever'.This is a fact.Check out 770 or the Bais Moshiach magazine.The same people that can proclaim that a human being can be 'alive forever and ever' (yechi adoneinu verabeinu melech hamoshiach leolom voed)are very close to Saying he is a deity, just a question of time.
If that does not bother you, than you and I have very little in common.I understand where the average Lubavitcher is coming from:He has been fed this crud with his mothers milk, for anybody else not to see what I'm talking about, has to be one of those suckers that purchased the Brooklyn Bridge

vml said...

duviesharfman said...
once again, brilliant! I really shep nachas from this blog. the more I discover and uncover of the snag-yeshiva world that I come from, the more their hypocrisy and inconsistencies are revealed. I am thankful to have been reached and "saved" by The Rebbe.

Thursday, December 29, 2005 8:47:10 PM

Your post reminds me of the people 'saved' by you know who...

vml said...

Home and Family
The Admor of Slonim, zt"l

Thousands accompanied the Admor of Slonim, HaRav Sholom Noach Barzovksy, zt"l, on his last earthly journey. The Slonimer Rebbe, who led his flock valiantly for scores of years, was niftar suddenly in his 89th year.

The Admor of Slonim was among those who renewed the worlds of Torah and Chassidus in the generation after the Holocaust, and one of the captains of chareidi Jewry in Eretz Yisroel. Thousands of his chassidim and students participated in his levaya which was led by the pillar of halachic authority, HaRav Yosef Sholom Eliashiv as well as by gedolei Yisroel, roshei yeshiva, admorim, members of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, rabbonim and dayanim.

The Admor of Slonim, HaRav Sholom Noach Barzovksy, zt"l, was born in the Polish town of Baranovitch. His father, HaRav Moshe Avrohom, was rav of the community. As a youth, he grew up in the sacred courtyard of Slonim and was especially close to the Admor of Slonim, the Beis Avrohom, who held him in high esteem, predicting that Rav Sholom Noach was destined for greatness.

In 5696 (1936) he moved to Eretz Yisroel following the advice of his mentor, the Admor of Slonim, who saw that the purpose of Reb Sholom Noach's move would be to revive the Slonimer community after the Holocaust. With the blessing of the Beis Avrohom, he married the daughter of the Admor, author of the Bircas Avrohom.

During the first years after his marriage he lived near his illustrious father-in-law in Tiveria, and imbibed Chassidic thought from him. It was a blend of peerless avodas Hashem and omal baTorah. Together, he and his father- in-law studied in the Ohr Torah Yeshiva located near the grave of Rabbi Meir Baal HaNess.

In 5702 (1942), when the reports of the wicked Nazi fiend wielding his sword over European Jewry reached Eretz Yisroel, he rose up like a lion and founded the Beis Avrohom Yeshiva in Jerusalem.

During the Holocaust, HaRav Sholom Noach lost his entire family. Barely a vestige of the Slonim Chassidic sect remained, and from the scores of shtiblach scattered throughout Europe, R' Sholom survived and, with his vision, perceived the designs of his rebbe. He understood that the heavy task of reviving the Chassidic sect of Slonim lay upon his shoulders, and with great courage he mustered all his strength and began to rebuild the illustrious community.

His father-in-law, the Bircas Avrohom, saw him as the one who would bring about the revival of the Slonimer Chassidim and, like a father to his son, he lovingly supported him in his efforts.

The Admor opened his yeshiva with just a few students in the shul of the Slonimer Chassidim in the Beis Yisroel neighborhood in Jerusalem. He dedicated himself solely to educating generations of talmidei chachomim and gedolei Torah, personally instilling in each student the aspiration to grow in Torah and Chassidus. In a remarkable manner he merged the lamdonus of the yeshiva world with the fervor of Chassidus. His shiurim, which were well known for their depth, and his discourses in Torah and Chassidus inspired his students to serve Hashem with added zeal. In his discourses he transmitted the spiritual legacy he had received from the mentors of the Slonimer Dynasty.

He was well known for his outstanding knowledge of every aspect of Torah. Throughout his life, he studied Torah in depth and for its own sake, and over the years became one of the gedolei haTorah vehaChassidus, leading his flock with glory. With untold mesiras nefesh and great love he attended to the education of each and every one of his students, wisely passing on the Slonimer legacy to future generations.

He assumed the tremendous burden of building the Beis Avrohom yeshiva and the shul for the Slonimer chassidim on a plot of land near Mea Shearim. Budding young students from Eretz Yisroel and abroad streamed to his yeshiva to bask in his light. In time, it became a beacon for many students who became his loyal Chassidim.

The Admor of Slonim was blessed with many noble character traits, such as rare gentleness and love for every human being. His face always glowed with a special light, and he was the pillar of prayer. With tremendous deveikus, he would stand before his Maker in prayer, an inner fire raging in his soul, his eyes shedding tears, his lips moving. His prayer was a foundation in Torah. All who saw him while he prayed recognized his loftiness of spirit.

He was a source of sagacious counsel for his fellow Jews, and people from all streams flocked to his home to seek his advice as one who had a deep understanding of the human soul. Chinuch was his prime concern, and his sefer, Nesivos Hachinuch, was the guidebook for many mechanchim. His many students were deeply attached to him, and he guided them like a loyal shepherd.

The Admor became known for his series of writings called Nesivos Sholom, which were cornerstones of Chassidic thought. He also compiled Beis Avrohom, based on writings of the Slonimer admorim as transmitted to him by his father-in-law. He even added his own impressions drawn from memory from his youth in Baranovitch, where he had heard his great mentor, the Beis Avrohom. He compiled these in the sefer Beis Avrohom and also published Toras Ovos, a remarkable anthology of deep Chassidic thought. With his outstanding talent, great knowledge, clarity of style and remarkable memory, he enriched the Chassidic world with the seforim of the Slonimer Dynasty.

Thousands of shiurim that he delivered for decades to his students have also been published. In these shiurim, in which he explains his learning approach, he emerges as a tremendous boki in all aspects of Torah as well as a remarkable innovator. His pamphlet, Hahorega Olecho, explains the Holocaust in an outstanding manner. In this pamphlet, his great emunah in Hashem which he sought to convey to future generations, is evident.

His most outstanding work is the Nesivos Sholom, a treasure of Chassidic thought and Torah ideas which has become a foundation for all Beis Yisroel in this generation. This series of five volumes on the Chumash focuses upon avodas Hashem, Shabbos and holidays, and has enriched the Chassidic world.

In 5741 (1981) he took over his father-in-law's position as Admor of Slonim. At that time, his father-in-law transmitted to him the secrets of the Ba'al Shem Tov and the Maggid.

The Admor of Slonim was one of the leaders of chareidi Jewry. While still a young man, he was appointed by the gedolim of the previous generation to the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah as representative of the Admor of Slonim, one of the founders of Worldwide Agudas Yisroel.

He presided as a member of the executive board of Vaad Hayeshivos in Eretz Yisroel for fifty years, during which he made great efforts on behalf of the yeshivos. He was also head of the executive board of Chinuch Atzmai and a member of its presidium, devoting much of his time and energy to saving future generations.

Hespedim were not delivered at the levaya. Before the procession began, his brother-in-law, HaRav Dovid Weinberg, tearfully read the words of the lamentation of Selichos, "Anshei amono ovdu," with the entire throng responding. He then announced that the Admor had left a last will and testament and a letter to his Chassidim. He announced that letter would be read at the end of the shiva week. He stressed that the Admor had asked that everyone pray for his soul and that Mishnayos be studied and tzedoko be given on his behalf.

He is survived by two sons, HaRav Shmuel, rosh yeshiva of Beis Avrohom and R' Yitzchok, a prominent Slonimer chossid, as well as by sons-in-law, HaRav Yisroel Luria, HaRav Shlomo Weinberg and HaRav Yisroel Kopolovitz, all marbitzei Torah veyiroh.

He was buried toward chatzos on Tuesday night, the 8th of Av on Har Hazeisim, beside his illustrious father-in- law.

Hirshel Tzig said...

VML

tell us who in Chabad you shtam from!

vml said...

Not from the Rebbes.

vml said...

אני חושב שבכדי לגשת לדיון הזה צריך להקדים איך חב"ד רואה את עצמה.

אין שום ספק שבחב"ד רואים את עצמם נעלים יותר מכלל ציבור שומרי תורה ומצוות.

אציין לכמה נקודות.

יחסם לרבי, שלדבריהם רב"י הוא ר'אש ב'ני י'שראל, לא רק ראש חסידי חב"ד אלא ראש של כל כלל ישראל. הרבי הוא משיח שבדור, אתפשטותא דמשה בכלל דור ודור. עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף. אמצעי המחבר. ועוד ועוד.

אונזערער זיבורית איז בעסער פון זייערע עידית. (הזיבורית שלנו מעולה מהעידית שלהם - המתנגדים.)

סידור בעל התניא הוא שער הכולל שבו תפילות כל ישראל יכולים לעלות. משא"כ שאר נוסחאות אינם אלא לשבט מסויים.

י"ט כסליו הוא ר"ה לחסידות. שימו לב, לא ר"ה לחב"ד, אלא לחסידות.

בודאי שיש לדברים אלו סימוכין במקורות היהודים, כמו שיש סימוכין כמעט לכל דבר במקורות היהדות. הנקודה היא שבחב"ד הדגישו את זה מעבר לכל פרופורציה מה שלא מצאנו כמעט בשום מקום אחר.

אין טעם לדון עם חסיד חב"ד על דברים אלו, כי דברים אלו הם יונקים עם חלב אמם. כל אחד שאינו מסכים עמהם, חושיו כהים, עיניו הוכו בסנוורים, בעל מוח חלש, מבלי יכולת להבין דקות העניינים על בוריים. רק חסידי חב"ד המצויינים בהתנהגותם האצילית ובעמקות מוחם כמו שיווכח כל מעיין, רק הם יכולים להבין עמקות ואמיתות מושגים אלו, ואין לזר אתם.

אסיים בסיפור קצר, פעם כשהתפללתי בחב"ד הסתובב חסיד חב"ד וביקש תרומות. כשהושטטתי ידי לתת לו סירב לקבל ממני באומרו שאני יונק בבחינת אחוריים ואינו רוצה לקבל כסף מאחד כזה.

תוקן על ידי - chouteng - 29/12/2005 0:13:25
I'm copying this post 'bebchinas, boruch shekivanti'
The above poster is one of the brightest on a very intellectual forum on 'bechadrey chareidim' 'atsor kah choshvim'
He writes in a nutshell what I have tried to bring out.

Hirshel Tzig said...

You know what VML? You can keep your Choshu've posters from Atzor Kan Choshvim, the ones who don't believe in Torah MiShomayim, who are Kofer in Toras HaNistar and who think that Midrashim are stories to be told as fairy tales to youngsters. You can keep your Gedalia Nadel too. אנא נסיב מלכא

Besides for the fact that all of the above points and opinions were formed waaaay before "Dor Hashvii". So you can blame the Chassidim Baalei Avodah Umesiras Nefesh for that.

Hirshel Tzig said...

btw
can you explain to me why it was necesary to clog up my blog with a totally irrelevant obituary from the Yated?

maaravah said...

Tzig- you post brilliant stories and pictures, but then you have a knack for making people disgusted with them by picking a fight with each one. For example, the story of the BR was a beautiful story about the FR's tremendous ahavas yisroel, naniach it was probably R' yossel weinberg that brought the esrog, and I will ask him next time I see him. But instead of leaving it at that, you picked a fight, and nobody even got the amazing point of the story- the FR's ahavas yisroel. The same thing with the Mir pictures. Plus, if you wanted to point out that they had no beards, dai l'chakimah b'remizah, we all see the picture.

Your intelligence and ability to snoop the internet and other sources for interesting stuff would probably be better appreciated if it wasn't al m'nas l'kanter u'lekatreg.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Maaravah

You're probably right about that, and I'll try to continue in that fashion henceforth.

After a compliment like that how can I not give in to you?

:)

bpunbound said...

VML,

OIY, bist di git farblun'tzet.

First of all, regarding your response to my comment:

As opposed to others on this blog who, ahem, speak out of their hat, I report what I heard. And that comment comes from eina vus hat gelernt dort...in der ershta yorin. And, if it makes you feel better, heint zitz er oivin un, gar oivin un, by der Agudah Convention. Un, if it makes you feel better, er halt der pononvizh'eh RH far a MARAN (his words). CE can confirm such, atleast the first part.

Regarding the purloined post, ya' know, I was beginning to feel that you were actually intelligent and we could carry on a discussion and perhaps exchange ideas. But you post stuff like this, pasted noch der'tzi, from some other dolts post...I get very discouraged.

WOULD YOU GET REAL. Every, EVERY, group practices elitism of some sort. Why would you, or anyone, not identify with a particular group or ideal if not because it symbolized and practised a higher set of values and beliefs, and believed that ideal to be a superior form of avoides Hashem. Unless, one iz mekabel from his father a mesorah and has reached such a state of bittul that he does not question that derech ONE IOTA. I don't think those lucky individuals are posting on this blog.

So, for instance:

אין שום ספק שבחב"ד רואים את עצמם נעלים יותר מכלל ציבור שומרי תורה ומצוות.

And who was it that proclaimed that der yid is hecher fun medaber, un noch hecher iz der ben toirah?

Un a (fill in your group of choice) meint nisht az zain rebbe
(R"H if you prefer) hut eppes mer tzu farkoifin vi yener, v'lochein, er, der mekusher, iz, chotsh, a trop hecher vi yener (fill in any other group) mekusher.


As far as the other stuff, if you bothered, you would discover these issues are discussed in sources OUTSIDE Chabad and Chassidus.

. הרבי הוא משיח שבדור, אתפשטותא דמשה בכלל דור ודור

Chasam Sofer, for one

עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף

Zohar

אמצעי המחבר

Toldos, for one

So when you go off like this and start regurgetating YOUR mothers milk, I begin to feel that its just the same old script, courtesy of der Micharchei Riv, that should have beed buried in the ash heap of the Churban 50 years ago, but instead was resurrected by two individuals (at least) and spoon fed to a new generation that didn't know any better.

I feel like I'm wasting my time with this post...I hope, in that sense, you prove me to be wrong.

bpunbound said...

"The mashgiach frowned upon bochurim thinking they had reached this dargah of chitzoinius.One person who was 'allowed' was R'Chaim Shereshevsky z'l of Boro Park."


By the way, this has always annoyed me. What does this bespeak this individual, and those who speak today in a similar fashion, that a heilige yiddishe cheifetz (the beard) has to be somehow earned. What gall! Where does that attitude enter the Jewish religion.

"Times have changed......."

Oh really. Perhaps the percentages have changed and the stigma has lessened, but the concept lives on. I still hear the same stupidity from der yeshivishe bochorim I speak to (quite a number, and from various yeshivas).

And, somehow, at the age of thirty, or forty, or whenever, it somehow IS EARNED? Er ken zein der zelbe grober vi frier, but somehow "then it looks good on him". What form Judaism this?


PS - Whatever became of the Kol Koirah, signed by the Chazon Ish and The Steipler etc. etc. D"L.

vml said...

Tzig:Sorry for posting about the Slonimer, I thought that some folks, would enjoy a basic bio of the dynasty that was mentioned on the blog.

Kurenitzer said...

I was going to add something about the historical context of Levush in the Lithuanian world, but it seems that the mutual hatred is so great that anything I say will just fly by everyone.
Really can't we admit that all sectors of Orthodox Judaism have contributed greatly to Orthodox Judaism.)About 5 years ago I wrote an article in the English section of the Algemeiner noting the 5 different people who contributed the most to orthodoxy here - Mr. Mendlowitz, Satmarer rebbe, the 2 Lubavitcher rebbes and Reb Aren Kotler. I missed Dr. Revel. They all made major contributions to orthodoxy.
Shazar also never studied at Da Mir as far as I know. I think his grandfatehr lived there.Levush , beard and peyoth all have their importance, but clearly wearing a kapote is not the final word in Yiddishkeit. Clearly gedolim like Rabbi SR Hirsch, Rabbi J. Ettlinger,Rav Joseph B. Soloveitchik,the makor baruch (R. Baruch Epstein Rav yaakov Y. Weinberg, the Alter of Slobodka, Reb Yeruchem of da Mir Rav Ruderman, R. Eliezer Silver , and hundreds of other Rabbonim muvhakim in Lithuania , and Germany had no peyoth.(It seems to me that the last 3 Lubavitcher rebbes had no peyoth shel Rosh either beyond what a old fashioned frumer Litvisher Baal haboys had)
Many impt Italian rabbis had no beards and there is strong evidence that such baale hasod like Rabbi Menachem azariah De Fano, and the RAMCHAl had no BEARDS.(Even today in Israel there are several Poel yeshouth from the edot Hamizrach with no beards)
Lets just be objective about it.
No question that beards and peyoth are classical Jewish values , but our culture changes and few orthodox Jews ahve the same malbush their great grandfathers wore.
Lets respect each massorah.Beards, trimmed beards, no beards, kapotes, surdut, suit 3/4 Oberlander coat and yes even the levush of the Merkoz harav people in Israel.