Monday, June 5, 2006

More on (no) אקדמות



Reb Shaul Yedidya Elazer of Modzitz

As a former Hungarian-Peylisher-Telzer I like to see וואס עס טוט זיך ביי אנדערע so when I saw the שטורעם that other circles make of אקדמות I decided to investigate.

Here's what Heichel Hanegina quotes from Modzitz

I've seen where they say in the name of Reb YD of Belz that his Chassidim should have "Mesiras Nefesh" to recite it with a Minyan.

In other places the אקדמות is the highlight of the Yom Tov.

We all know the וויכוח between the AR and RLY of Barditchev about the recitation of ושמרו on Friday night. The Barditchever said that it's a יריד ביי וועלכע עס קומט די גאנצע פמלי' של מעלה, to which the Alter Rebbe replied אז נישט צו יעדען יריד דארף מען גיין , meaning that it's טאקע געוואלדיג, yet we do not attend. ונימוקו עמו, which in that case would (maybe) mean since the ושמרו is a הפסק, so the הלכה takes precedence.

The old Minhag of starting the first Posuk and then saying Akdomus, which the AR brings as the מנהג הראשונים, has since been changed by all קהלות, hence there is no problem with being מפסיק in middle of קריאת התורה. Still, the Minhog in Lubavitch was not to say it. I have yet to hear a reason why.

28 comments:

ליטוואק said...

"The old Minhag of starting the first Posuk and then saying Akdomus, which the AR brings as the מנהג הראשונים, has since been changed by all קהלות, hence there is no problem with being מפסיק in middle of קריאת התורה."

Not true - Yekkes still do it the old way. There is Yiddishkeit beyond certain sections of Brooklyn.

ליטוואק said...

"נישט צו יעדען יריד דארף מען גיין"

I have hano'oh reading that, a remnant of the Litvishe side of Lubavitch.

Re Lubavitch not saying ושמרו on Friday night - that is one of the things in which minhag Lubavitch and minhag HaGR"A is the same. Such cases exist, believe it or not.

Hirshel Tzig said...

ליטוואק

I'll take that as a swipe against me, I should know every single Minhog out there, right?

There are many more Minhogei HaGroo that are the same as Minhogei Chabad. The Sof Zmanim of Krias Shma and Tefilloh come to mind.

yehupitz said...

I have heard from ne'emonim that the ancient minhag to recite it after the first possuk was because Akdamus was the introduction to the Meturgeman's translation-explanation, which began after the first possuk was recited.

Personally, I don't know why anyone makes a big deal about it. Nobody understands the aramaic. The author is not widely known as one of the Avos of Ashkenaz. In a shul like K"K d'Yehupitz where even the 'knowledgeable' balebatim have a poor grasp of Hebrew, let alone basic aramaic, let alone torturous aramaic, going through it is as spiritually uplifting and as long as root canal surgery.

I don't know what Lubavitch's excuse is. Perhaps it's their customary aversion to non-Lurianic piyutim. But more power to them if they can get out of it.

ליטוואק said...

"I'll take that as a swipe against me, I should know every single Minhog out there, right?"

You don't have to know every minhag, but it's a good idea to be cautious before making sweeping statements such as "has since been changed by all". As Chazal say "lemod lishoncha lomar eini yodeia...". There are some akshonim who hold on to old minhogim and don't abandon them so easily. After all, we are an am kisheh oref, sometimes that stubbornness is still used where it should be used instead of where it shouldn't.

"There are many more Minhogei HaGroo that are the same as Minhogei Chabad. The Sof Zmanim of Krias Shma and Tefilloh come to mind."

Maybe a reshima of such can be drawn up.

friendly anonymous said...

See Sha'ar Hakollel 40,17

Camp Runamok said...

> There are many more Minhogei
> HaGroo that are the same as
> Minhogei Chabad.

I think both the GR"A and the A"R both specifically exhort chazzanim to not whisper Modim but to say it aloud as the kahal says Modim D'Rabbanan.

Hirshel Tzig said...

the loshon in the Siddur of the AR is as follows:

אבל כתבו האחרונים שיאמרו האקדמות קודם שיברך בתורה

Why did the Yekkers keep the Minhog HoRishonim?

yehupitz said...

Because the Yekkes follow the Maharil by having made a point of keeping their Minhogim HaRishonim and not giving in to "evolutionary" forces rooted in Kabbala and the Derech Halimud of the Sefardim. (b'kitzur: a Bavli only approach).

Another way of putting it is to say that Yekke communities did everything they could to hold out against the onslaught of the Halachic development of the Acharonim. There are many examples of this.

Anonymous said...

acheinu hasefardim don't say akdomus

Hirshel Tzig said...

Yehupitz

as far as I know the Yekkers are not a nomadic tribe that emigrated from בבל and immediately established KAJ in Frankfurt. They're Ashkenazim like the rest of us.

Having said that where do we see that the דרך הלימוד of the ספרדים had a major say in the decisions of the Acharonim, and that the other אשכנזים accepted those changes? Who were these ספרדים that influenced the חכמי אשכנז?

Didn't the חכמי ספרד have a more direct מסורה from בבל?

ליטוואק said...

FA - vos shteyt in shaar hakayllel ?

Yekke kehillos don't say the shtickel Zohar called brich shmei before hotzaas sefer Tayreh either.

ליטוואק said...

Another example - Yekke kehillos daven maariv early on leil Shavuos.

vu den said...

The minhag to say Akdomus is brought down in Shulchan Oruch Harav, where do you take it that the minhag in Chabad is not to say it?
Many strange new minhagim have crept into todays Chabad:Two that come to mind are not saying selichos during aseres yemei teshuva, something not heard of anywhere else and the mitzva not to sleep in the sukka.

yoshe kalb said...

I once heard that omitting akdomus is also minhag Tchernobyl and that the rebbeim,being also Tchernobler einiklach,follow this minhag.Other Tchernobler minhagim of the rebbeim are wearing shabbesdike clothing on motzo'e shabbos,pouring massive amounts of salt on the fish and a few more.Maybe someone can enlighten us if omitting akdomus is really the Minhag Tchernobyl?

Hirshel Tzig said...

וואו דען

contrary to what you've been fed, Minhogei Chabad are based on previous generations, unlike the עולם הישיבות, which basically made it up as it went along.

Both מנהגים, regarding Akdomus and Selichos, are a continuation of previous generations.

n said...

i believe that the alter rebbe says regarding those who 'interupt' during krias hatorah for akdomus not to make a fuss, because this is an accepted custom....

Hirshel Tzig said...

Yoshe

I know that in Rachmistrivke and Skver Akdomus is said by the Rebbe ברוב התלהבות but thay may be taken from Belz, just like many other Minhogim.

Friendly Anonoymous said...

The Shaar Hakollel states that there were actually different customs among Anash shuls themselves, based on whether everyone was holding with the minyan (why shouldn't you say Akdomus in such a case) or whether people were ma'arich bitfilosom and had to be mafsik in their davening to hear Krias Hatorah (in which case, lessen the hafsoko and don't say it)

ליטוואק said...

" Minhogei Chabad are based on previous generations, unlike the עולם הישיבות, which basically made it up as it went along."

Come on, there you go again, I thought that maybe you realized earlier not to make such sweeping generalizations when you were corrected re your claim that 'everyone' changed the old minhag re saying akdomus after leining the first posuk. Alas, I see there is still room for tikkun.

You're wrong here on both sides. Firstly, certain Lubavitch minhogim are new, either from dor shvii, dor rishon, or some other point in time, and were not 'from previous generations', and secondly, even though there are some lapses re minhogim in the olom hayeshivos, to say that 'they made it up as they went along' is far too sweeping of a generalization and is inaccurate.

Anonymous said...

just 2 examples on the new minhogim, the new minhag of not saying Tikun Leil Shavouth, that the Gra and klal yisroel for genaration used to say it,
of saying the amida of mincha halfways, as if the Rama and all gedolim didnt have the hasmada from Kletzk

Anonymous said...

To Vu Den
do you know that the minhogei hagra in Maisa Rav are many times at odds with Biur Hagra ? so whats you point?

Hirshel Tzig said...

ליטוואק
איך רעד דאך פון דעם! מנהגי חב"ד שטאמען פון די רביים, ובראשם דער רבי די בעל התניא והשו"ע

ליטוואק said...

Re Tikkun leil Shavuos - limaaseh it is a kabboloh minhog that is relatively new as mass phenomenon - so if Yeshivaleit nowadays don't say it, it's not like they are stopping a minhag from the gemara, shulchan oruch or non-kabbalistic rishonei haposkim, they are just going back to the old minhag Ashkenaz not to say it. Since it is a kabboloh based minhog, it's not surprising. It's somewhat surprising that it took hold in earlier generations in the first place among that segment of klal Yisroel actually, if you ask me.

torah oz said...

moondshine brings that in vermaiza they didn't say akdomus see mokor chaim 494, minhogei vermaiza p112

Anonymous said...

to litvak, to say tikun is a minhag that was popular for genarations before valozhiner yeshiva came into exsistence, just yesteday I saw in toras chaim on shulchan aruch, that his father the Machne Chaim and his rebbe the Maram Shik, were reciting the tikun for the night and did not learn gemora or shulcan aruch,I hope you know that they were both non chasdim and not famous as kabalist

ליטוואק said...

Biderech klal, when something is called 'tikkun' it usually is a Kabboloh zach, which Litvaks, esp. Yeshivishe ones, are not usually into. That includes Tikkun Leil Shavous and Hoshannah Rabbah, Tikkun chatzos, and giving 'tikkun' on a yohrzeit.

Maharam Schick was Hungarian, not Litvish.

For the people that like Tikkun Leil Shavuos - do you also learn Chok liYisroel ? how many people learn 'Chok' these days, even among Chassidim ? That is another example of how Chassidim have changed (even though they pretend that nothing has changed and that they haven't). Maybe that is more of a Chagas thing than Lubavitch, but my point still stands.

Anonymous said...

to litvak, since when do litvaks refrain from kabala, please get your facts straight, the Gra and most of his talmidim were big into kabala,did you ever looked into nefesh hachaim, do you know of a sefer leshem, in matter of fact R'Eliashev's grandfather.

A litvishe am horetz has no Chein