Thursday, July 19, 2007

Milhouse on Dr Berger, Meshichistn and the Vampire syndrome

Commenting on the thread Harry Goes To Confession, Milhouse checks in:

I did read the book when it came out, and it did shock me, but not in a way that Berger intended. The book is littered with gross misstatements of fact, stupid assumptions that showed how little he knew about his subject (any Lubavitcher could have corrected many of these, had he bothered to ask one). But besides these little things, it betrays a major flaw in its premise.

The entire book is based on the premise that if he can establish that Chabad is like the first generation of Xians, then he has landed a damning blow. He never stops to consider whether those early Xians, who believed that their dead Rebbe was the moshiach, were michutz lamachaneh. He assumes that Jews must not be like those people, that we must not share their belief, that there is some sort of aveira or apikorsus in doing so. But he never bothers to prove it.

I have been saying for the past 13 years, long before Berger's book came out, that the meshichistn are exactly like those early Xians. But I don't see it as a chisoron. You will not find a din, in Shulchon Oruch, Rambam, or anywhere else, that one must not believe that Moshiach will come from the dead. Es shtait nisht. And if someone wants to believe that of Yoizel, as far as I'm concerned, gezunterheit. So long as he believes in everything that a Jew must believe, and keeps all the dinim that a Jew must keep, he can believe whatever else he likes. The only things he might be over on are the possuk ve'omru rak am chochom venovon hagoy hagodol hazeh, and the line in Tanya which says ve'al yehi shoteh. But we all have our own mishugassen, so I'm willing to let this be his. Al achas kamoh vekamoh when he believes not in Yoizel but lehavdil in the Rebbe.

Berger, though, seems to be fixated on the idea that Yiddiskeit is defined as "not-Christianity," and whatever he can identify as Xianity must automatically be anathema to Jews. Well, it ain't so, and this invalidates his entire jihad against Lubavitch.

One piece in his book starkly demonstrates the depth of his blind fanaticism. He talks about a Lubavitcher he used to admire, who had shown amazing mesirus nefesh in the USSR, literal readiness to give up his life for der Eibershter, and Berger used to admire him for it. But then he heard this Jew express himself in a way vos hot em nisht gefelen, he heard this Jew say what he is convinced is apikorsus, and he wrote how much it pained him to have to reject this Jew and condemn him to the depths of the Pit, chas vesholom.

Her tzu, if this person is such a paragon, and he says something that you don't like, did it cross your mind that maybe he's right and you're wrong? Did you even consider it for a moment? Maybe you too should become a masochist like him? If you did think of it, but after careful consideration were not persuaded, meileh; I'm also not convinced, I also don't share this yid's views, so how can I demand it of you? But Berger didn't even consider the possibility. He's a fanatic, it's like he's a vampire and he's terrified of anything that even vaguely resembles a tzeilem, because his entire Yiddishkeit seems to be defined as a negative; he's not a Jew, he's a not-Xian. He's made his career battling Xian missionaries, and for him now to admit that some of the arguments he made against them may not be as strong as he thought, this is impossible for him.

In reality, Berger and the neo-misnagdim are making exactly the same mistake as the radical meshichistn. The yellow people insist not just that the Rebbe is moshiach, but that everybody must acknowledge it, and one who denies it is an apikores. And the neo-misnagdim say the exact opposite; not only is the Rebbe not moshiach, but everyone must deny it, and one who accepts it is an apikores. Both sides of this coin are equally alien to ruach yisroel sabbo, and I reject both with equal vehemence.

(Nevertheless, while the meshichistn may not be apikorsim, they are embarrassing, and I wish they'd keep their eccentric views to themselves. But I wish the same about Manis Friedman with his homeopathy, and Mrs Halberstam with her crusade against the second amendment, etc. That doesn't make them michutz lamachaneh, or their wine and shechita treif, ch"v).

30 comments:

Anonymous said...

Milhouse
With all due respect you need to clarify many aspects of the relationship of Judaism to Nazruth. According to you many of the so called Hebrew christians are Jews in good standing. If you google these people you will note many who claim to be Orthodox Jews and beleive in JC as the Messiah, but practice Tore Judaism.. This mayn tayere is not acceptable in Judaism and believing in JC and wearing a shtreimel , and gartel is not Judaism.Read the rambam's Ani Maamin especially the one about I believe in the COMING (future tense) of Mashiach .
As far as "vu shtatit dos" in Shulchan aruch, Chassidim of the old school were want to say if someone asks Vu shtayt dos he is suspect of being varforen from the derech, vu shtayt dos is certainly not in the vocabulary of a Chassidic Jew as a matter of fact where does it say in the Shulchan Aruch that you need a rebbe for Mofsim etc, where does it say you needa Borsellino with x number of kneitchen ?
Again with all respect why don't you read some books on this subject and talk to some knowledgeable people about this.No a jew can not beleive in JC as the Messiah.Chad veChelek

zalmen leib said...

Milhouse,
Would you say the same about R' Yaakov Emden and his crusade (bad word, I know) against Shabsaus and R' Yonasan?

Elye said...

"You will not find a din, in Shulchon Oruch, Rambam, or anywhere else, that one must not believe that Moshiach will come from the dead. Es shtait nisht. And if someone wants to believe that of Yoizel, as far as I'm concerned, gezunterheit. So long as he believes in everything that a Jew must believe, and keeps all the dinim that a Jew must keep, he can believe whatever else he likes."

You are confusing two issues. True, it does not say anywhere that Moshiach cannot be min-hakomim-litchiyah. But how can one be considered a frum Jew if he believes that Yoshke is the Messiah? This is against Halacha! Not (only) because Yoshke was killed (and the Ramba"m writes that one who is killed is obviously not Moshiach), but because he was an Apikores who claimed that some Mitzvos are no longer relevant, and tried to change the Torah (as the Ramab"m writes in Hil. Melachim 11:3 "hatorah hazos, chukeha umishpateha leolam ulolmei olamim ein bahem lo shinui vlo giraon vtosefes... vchol hameshaneh Harei zeh bevaday Rasha VeApikores".)

To sum it up in a nutshell, the question is not why can't Yoshke be Moshiach, but rather how Could he possibly be Moshiach, if he was an Apikores and served to distance Jews from Torah instead of bringing them closer?! Would you ask why can't Baruch Spinoza be Moshiach? Or any leader of the reform movement? Or any meshumad?

Any comparison between Lubavitcher belief that the Rebbe - a Tzaddik by all accounts - will be revealed as Moshiach to the belief that an Apikores will be Moshiach is absurd.

lakewood said...

Milhouse, if that's what you think you'd be best off not telling anyone... I mean, only Hashem is boychen kloyos vlev, and we never know what's at an individual' sheart - but if you tell everyone your krumeh hashkofos you only make it worse for yourself, and Lubavitch, etc.

Friendly anonymous said...

Tzu der ershte tayere anonymous,

Leshitosco hadechufo, if it doesn't have to say anywhere that something is apikorsus before comdemning people who believe such things as apikorsim, then what does Burger accomplish with his book, and why even bother quoting him?

Millhouse- Nice vort about the vampires. Is blood from a person ossur min hatorah? Can Burgher be a vampire and still be part of the Jewish people?

Camp Runamok said...

Honestly, leave Dr. Berger out of the discussion. The poor fellow jumped the shark on this matter years ago and is now reduced to preaching to the converted. See his column some months back in the Trench Tool (Yated). There he summarizes his past epistles and outs as many M "kufr" as he can name. I wouldn't be surprised if The Jewish Week rejected it prior.

Those that agree with him need no proof and those that disagree cannot be convinced. Those in the middle likely couldn't care less.

moish said...

Milhouse,

While 13 years ago your position may have been reasonable, today it is absurd.

I live in Crown Heights and I just received a large pamphlet that explains why nowadays we need not....

Are you blind? Can't you see where this "eccentric" meshichism has taken us! We are now at the beginning of the second stage of early xtians, so to speak. Now these people are the fringe of a fringe but they are growing. And they will continue to grow unless we take a stronger stance.
In my opinion.

he who walks the walk said...

a. the reason the jews rejected jesus is not because he was dead, it was becasue he was jesus.

b. it does not suffice to 'keep every din' in order to be a true jew. as much as you may not like it jewdaism is dogmatic and requires more than adherence to a certain code of actions. the bahya ben joseph ibn pakuda devoted an entire work to that . i believe you have heard of a sefer called chovot ha-levavot...

snag said...

I'm sure the Rebbe has alot of nachas with Chassidim like Millhouse (Nixon) defending belief in Yoizel now.

He is getting so bent out of shape and going into such contortions, anything not to admit that Lubavitch has seriously erred and gotten farblundzhet in a major way.

What a kiddush Lubavitch !

Instead of attacking a choshuveh Yid like Rav Berger shlita, it would be a good idea if Millhouse and Lubavitch tried some introspection for a change.

Your mess will not go away by attacking Moreinu Rav Berger shlita. Anyone with open eyes can see how you have fallen. Your only hope is to missionize to Yidden who know zero, who don't know better, who may fall for your propaganda, hook line and sinker. But Yidden that know something know better. The more knowledgable a Yid is in Yiddishkeit, the less likely he is to join Lubavitch.

berl, crown heights said...

milhouse, very well put!

Y.Y said...

Millhouse
Reading your comment/post brought to mind Rabbi Hellers words (rosh hakolrl)'People, who don't know enough to pasken regular issur and heter questions now know enough to rule regarding major issues of the Jewish faith'(paraphrase)
Millhouse, seriously now, aren't you totally going overboard in stating that the belief in Yoshkeh is also ok?!
The Meshichistens outgrowth has already shown itself to push the Boreinuniks belief, and yes, that is how Christianity started out.Remember it did not happen overnight it took 300 hundred years!

Isaac Balbin said...

See Tshuvos Bnei Vonim 4:27 from R YH Henkin.

We are seeing the rise of hidden Boristin because it's a short walk from atzmus umehus areyn geshtelt in guf.

You could argue R' Berger is alarmist.

The confluence of simple ones, the need for a physical rebbe, atzmus, and the questionable belief of infallibility is a potent mixture to fear, and gravely (sic) so.

Instead of focussing on errant comments in R' Berger's book, I'd ask Millhouse and others to rage against what is generously described as Tipshus but more accurately described as the thin edge of the sword.

We have a lot less to fear from the mistaken "Ein Moshiach LeYisroel" of Rav Hillel.

Anonymous said...

just came accross your blog for the 1st time and would like to leave a few comments.
1. most comments are written with dignity and respect except maybe those made by moish.
2. i agree with millhouse about some things that he said - firstly i can say with much confidence that in secular circles berger's book is not respected from a scholastic point of view ( i am not commenting on the subject matter here ). also i agree that many things millhouse said are correct according to halocho but o agree with many others who have commented that belief in yoshke as moshiach is incompatible with yidishkeyt and not because he died ( as some of you have correctly stated ).
3 finally i would like to urge all of you ( especially prior to tishebov )to argue issues without attacking people.
kol tuv
ps. purely from yidish grammer perspective - you cant say "tzu der ershter tayere... but "tzu dem ( or tzum ) ershyn tayern ...

Joe in Australia said...

With all respect to Milhouse, I think that not only is he wrong, but the reason he is wrong shows why Meshichism is dangerous.

The Jewish idea of Moshiach is that there will be a Jewish man, born to Jewish parents, righteous in the same way that other Jews can be righteous, who will fight battles, return the Jews to Israel, and rebuild the Temple. I guess that there might be someone who believes that Jesus will be resurrected and do all that, but no Christian can possibly do so. Christians believe that Jesus is an eternally-existing Person of the Trinity, who existed before creation and "through whom all things were made". He was necessarily born through a miraculous virgin conception, because the Christian Messiah must be sinless in a way that no human could otherwise achieve. It isn't a matter of him being chosen by G-d - he actually is the Christian deity, or at least a fundamental part of it.

So Milhouse's statement that he would have no real problem with an orthopractic Jew believing that Jesus is Moshiach is irrelevant. Nobody believes that, or at least nobody with any real historical continuity or major following. If someone says that Jesus was the Messiah/Moshiach it's because they believe some version of the Christian dogma above. There might in theory be a way to believe that Jesus is Moshiach (while disbelieving all the stories that show him rejecting halacha), but the fact is that the people who ascribe a special status to Jesus are the same ones who believe things incompatible with Judaism.

My concern is that it's the same with Meshichists. The reasoning necessary to support Meshichism is so twisted that it can and does take Meshichists anywhere. If someone can believe that the late Rebbe specifically should be resurrected as Moshiach (as opposed to, e.g., the prophet Daniel or King David) then it can only be because the Rebbe was super-special, more so than any past, present, or future person. Once someone starts persuading himself of the cosmic destiny of the late Rebbe then it's only a small step to Boreinuism.

Milhouse said...

So much ignorance, so little time.

Yes, I am absolutely serious in saying that there is nothing wrong with believing that Jesus was and will be the moshiach. Any more than believing that the earth is flat, or that water in which there is not one molecule of any other substance will cure what ails you. A person who believes that remains kosher le'eidus, their wine is kosher, and even their shechita is kosher. And you will not find a serious posek who will say otherwise.

"Hebrew Christians"? It's a broad category, and here may be some among them who fit this description; but not a lot. Members of Jews For Jesus certainly do not. J4J is a fully orthodox evangelical protestant church, it believes what all protestants do. That Jesus is a god, ch"v. That belief in him and accepting him as ones personal saviour is the only thing that gets one out of eternal damnation and into Heaven. That he was the ultimate korban, whose sacrifice rendered all further korbonos, and therefore the Beis Hamikdosh, obsolete. That the churban we are now mourning was no tragedy, because there was no more need for the BHMK, and when he comes back there will be no third BHMK or korbonos. And that his sacrifice also rendered all the mitzvos similarly obsolete. If a J4J keeps kosher, it's not because he believes he has to, but merely as a way of getting in touch with his roots, or with his god's roots, or something like that. He may see it as a good deed, but certainly not as a binding commandment. That is not Judaism.

But suppose someone believes in everything that a Jew must believe, and keeps all the dinim that a Jew must keep; he believes in the entire torah shebichsav and sheb'al peh, and all of divrei chazal; he believes that moshiach will be a human being who is not to be worshiped or prayed to, and is not to be identified with Hashem except in some metaphorical way; he expects the BHMK to be rebuilt and looks forward to the resumption of the korbonos; and he accepts that the mitzvos will remain binding even after moshiach comes, let alone now. That is a kosher Jew, regardless of who he thinks that moshiach will be. And any Xian will tell you that that is no Xian. The fact that Xians do fully accept J4J is all the proof you need that J4J do not believe as Jews do.

Milhouse said...

Elye claims that a frum Jew can't believe Yoshke will be the moshiach, "because he was an Apikores who claimed that some Mitzvos are no longer relevant, and tried to change the Torah". I ask, how do you know? Which mitzvos did he claim were no longer relevant, and in what way did he try to change the Torah? I'm not aware of convincing evidence that he did any such thing. He is certainly quoted as saying that "not one jot or tittle" of the Torah would change, and that he did not come to abolish the Torah "but to fulfill it". Now these quotes may not be accurate, or if accurate it may be that he didn't mean them. But I see no reason why a frum Jew couldn't believe that he said these things and meant them, and therefore might still be the moshiach.

To "friendly anonymous", human blood that has left its source is ossur because of mar'is ho'ayin, just like fish blood. Presumably a vampire who drinks directly from the source would be OK.

Moish, this pamphlet explained that "nowadays we need not" what? I can't read your mind over the intertubes.

"He who walks the walk" seems to need reading lessons. What part of "So long as he believes in everything that a Jew must believe, and keeps all the dinim that a Jew must keep, he can believe whatever else he likes" did you not understand?

"y.y" claims that "the Meshichistens outgrowth has already shown itself to push the Boreinuniks belief". And Isaac also claims that "we are seeing the rise of hidden Boristin". No, it most certainly hasn't, and we're not. How many meshichistn are there in Lubavitch? Tens of thousands. How many "borenuniks" are there? Less than a minyan. As I've noted before, the proportion of Lubavs who even claim to believe that the Rebbe is ch"v a god is statistically insignificant; that means they may as well not exist at all, and it's dishonest to treat them as a real phenomenon that needs explanations. There are probably just as many people in the yeshivish world who believe that they are moshiach, or gods, or whatever; we just don't hear about them, because everyone around them knows not to pay them any attention.

What's more, I doubt that most of the known "boreinu" people actually believe what they claim to. If you read Soko's ravings very carefully, I think you'll find that he isn't actually an apikores, though he very much wants you to think that he is. The poor boy wants attention, and he knows that proclaiming such a bizarre belief is a sure way to get it. He's become an internet star, just by saying what his fans want to hear. But inside he's a silly twisted boy, who doesn't actually believe anything different than you do.

Chanina said...

'Nothing wrong with believing that Yoshke will be moshiach'??
What's next-Nothing wrong in becoming a Christian??
I think the Millhouse man has just given fodder to Jews For J.
Nice, so now they can quote 'even an Orthodo hasidic Jew', all this so The Millhouse can proceed with his preconceived ideas and biases, long before he read Bergers book that Berger and anybody who dares criticize Lubavitch is wrong.They''ll say the most outrageous things to further their apologist agenda.In one word-Millhouse is an APOLOGIST.
The power of a 'negia'!Metaher ess hasheretz, even 'emuno beoisoi hoish' abi his group 'wins'.

Berish said...

The QUESTION is:Would Millhouse and Berel c.heights be saying the same thing IF there had been no Moshiach campaign in Lubavitch?
I think not.Actually no sane Orthodox Jew would have even entertained the idea.

Schneur said...

If there is nothing wrong with believing in jC as the Messiah, would you personally accept a rebbe who believes in this? Why not ?
Further more why did the Jews in the Crusades in the Inquisition in Tach etc allow themselves to be killed rather than accept JC ?
Afterall according to you you are stil a Jew in good standing. I only pray that your position is a daas yachid not the opinion of other Chabdniks.
Since you guys like to trot out other Roshim and rabbaim at your events. Perhaps you will do me a favor ask the following 5 people if such a person is a meshumad or not Please ask Rabbis Menashe klein, Gavriel Zinner, Fishel Herskovics,Moshe Tendler and Rav Elya Fisher of Ger. I will abide by their opinion.

nemo said...

Millhouse, there really is no such thing, as experience has shown, as someone who only believes in Jesus as being Messiah. If you buy any of it, deification seems to be inevitable.

Your post lost a lot of legitimacy by bringing out this point. Worse yet, it gave a lot of credence to the local Misnagdim.

I'm sure that no serious Posek would count in a Minyan any person who so much as entertains the belief that Jesus was Messiah.

Anonymous said...

the last post by millhouse is excellent - i couldnt have said it better - he seems to have a very precise insight on what is really happenning in lubavich today. well done!

Milhouse said...

Joe says: I guess that there might be someone who believes that Jesus will be resurrected and do all that, but no Christian can possibly do so. Of course not. Where did you get the idea that I suggested otherwise?

So Milhouse's statement that he would have no real problem with an orthopractic Jew believing that Jesus is Moshiach is irrelevant. Nobody believes that, or at least nobody with any real historical continuity or major following. Again, where did I suggest that there are a lot of such people? The question isn't how many such people exist, but what is their status in halacha, and I contend that they are 100% kosher, that it is "mutar lechatchila" to hold this belief, to the same extent that it is mutar to believe any nonsense.

If someone says that Jesus was the Messiah/Moshiach it's because they believe some version of the Christian dogma above. There might in theory be a way to believe that Jesus is Moshiach (while disbelieving all the stories that show him rejecting halacha), but the fact is that the people who ascribe a special status to Jesus are the same ones who believe things incompatible with Judaism. My concern is that it's the same with Meshichists.

You're completely missing the point. There are very very few people today who believe in the Jewish view of the moshiach, and also believe that Yoizel will fill that role. But there used to be many such people - the Jerusalem Church and the Ebionites. At one point they were all there was of Xianity - and at that point Xianity was an integral part of slightly-off-the-mainstream Yiddishkeit, no different than, say, the Carlebachians. Xianity as we know it was not an inevitable development from that position. Paul's reforms amounted to inventing a completely new religion and shoving it by force into the skin of the group he took over. None of Paul's religion was inherent in what Jesus taught or in what his talmidim believed. Even in hindsight we cannot see in the Jerusalem church the seeds of Paul's religion.

And today's messianic Lubavitchers are in the same position as those early Xians. Is it possible that someone will take that movement over and turn it into something completely different? I suppose it is, but there's no reason to expect that to happen, and if it does there's no way to predict what the new movement might be about. In the meantime we must take the meshichistn as they are, and as they are they are entitled to their beliefs, however odd they may seem to us, and Berger and his ilk have no right to attack them or to treat them as michutz lamachaneh.

Milhouse said...

Schneur:

1. I wouldn't personally accept a rebbe who believed in homeopathy either. That doesn't mean others can't.

2. If all the Crusaders, the Spaniards, the Cossacks, or any of that ilk wanted of the Jews had been to accept that Jesus will be the moshiach, I am not at all sure that mesirus nefesh would have been called for. One could argue that it would still have been sh'as hashmad, when one must be moser nefesh even over a shoelace; but the fact is that this issue has never come up and is never likely to. None of the enemies you mention would have been satisfied with such a declaration. They demanded that the Jews convert to Xianity, which is a very different thing. If you don't understand the difference then you should keep your mouth shut on the entire subject of Xianity, Jesus, or anything related.

3. I suggest that you ask this question of R J David Bleich, who is considered something of a godol at your workplace. You may be surprised at what he tells you.

Milhouse said...

Nemo: Millhouse, there really is no such thing, as experience has shown, as someone who only believes in Jesus as being Messiah.

How do you know that there is no such thing? It's a big world. I happen to know for a fact that at least one such person does exist, and competent rabbonim have paskened that this person is to be considered a completely kosher Jew.

If you buy any of it, deification seems to be inevitable.

Why do you think so? Are you aware of any case where someone started out believing that J was moshiach and ended up believing that he was a god? Can you point to such a case, now or ever, except for Paul himself? Xianity as a movement changed, but as far as I know no individual, except Paul himself, changed his beliefs in the process (and I wonder what Paul's own beliefs really were; I don't think he was ever a believing Jew, and I certainly don't believe that he was ever a talmid of Rabbon Gamliel as he claimed to have been).

nemo said...

Millhouse, because there is nothing compelling about his story if you don't accept the divinity doctrine. He's just another guy with clever lines that could perform miracles. Big freaking deal....

Milhouse said...

Nemo: and therefore? How does this prove that there are no people who believe he'll be the moshiach? I'm telling you that there are such people. And even if there weren't, how would that be relevant to this discussion?

Schneur said...

Can I open my mouth after you tell me to shut up. Mr. Milhouse : accepting JC as Messiah makes you a Christian. After all that religion makes few other demands, does it and glatt meat, Rabbeinu Tam tefillin, as the expert in that religion you ought to know that that religion demands belief in that man as the savior the Messaih and little else. What you write is a Meyridike Bizayon for all Jews , Chassidim, Lubavitcher, Chabad , Kedoshim etc throughout our history. Yes I am not the expert in Christianity as you claim you are. Indeedyou ought to read some Jewish history and the history of Jewish ideas and Bergers book may be a good place to start.
Finally I can ask rabbi Bleich , but you ought to ask the multiple Bate Dinim in CH and the various rabbonim there like rav Heller , and Schwei how they would feel if you told them you now believe in JC. I guess they would be mechabed you with maftir Yonash.
Frankly I don't care if this is printed but I now see that some people in CH will go a long way to justify a certain believe that has crept into your fellow Chabad chassidm.
shame on you ! Its just a shame that no one shows this thead to some chashuve rabbonim who still are friendly with Lubavitch.
By the way did you tell rabbis Zinner and Klein of your great chiddus. I just wonder what the rebbe himself would say if he were alive to your Chiddush....
In Judaism we have the concept that our parents do nopt lie to us, our parents told us that JC was nothing , a gornist not the Messiah (Cholh vechas).
again I really wonder where some chabad people will be in 50 years ?

Moish said...

Scneur,
You have correctly realized that Millhouse and co's 'chiddush' was only said to answer some(many?)in Chabads lurch into believing in a dead moshiach.
It's makes my stomach turn.Chabad used to be about EMMES.Now it is only about one person.They will twist anything to fit into their agenda.Rabbi Millhouse is by no means a 'crazy meshichist'.For me that makes it a lot scarier,I've written off the crazy Meshichisten from the sane long ago

Milhouse said...

Schneur: Once again, all I can say is that if you honestly think that "accepting JC as Messiah makes you a Christian" then you don't know even the alef-beis of the subject, and should have the honesty to refrain from commenting on it, in any forum, until you have educated yourself. Perhaps it's laudable that you are so innocent about AZ - there is after all an issur on learning its details unless one has a need to know - but one who doesn't know should steer clear of commenting on it, and certainly should be careful of comparing it to the beliefs of erliche yidden.

Let me state this with more force: believing that J will be the moshiach (in the Jewish sense of that term, in the way that even the most radical meshichistn think of the Rebbe) does not make one a Xian; in fact quite to the contrary, if a goy were to declare such a belief he would be kicked out of every Xian denomination.

In the meantime, you can ask R Bleich the question: what is the din of a person who believes in the Jewish definition of the moshiach, but believes that this person will be Jesus, risen from the dead. (You surely understand that there's a reason why I'm directing you to R Bleich. As the lawyers say, "never ask a question unless you already know the answer".)

Isaac Balbin said...

Millhouse, this is true story. There was once a man who kept telling everyone that he was the Moshiach. His family had tried every avenue. Various Rabbonim through to health professionals. The man, however, believed that he had been told by Hashem that he was Moshiach. In desperation, they turned to the Rav, Z"TL. The Rav whispered into the man's ear and the man then refrained from saying it anymore. The Rav told him that "it was a secret, and he should keep quiet about it for now, because that's what Hashem wanted". Vehamyvin Yovin. The rest (this thread) is just Hevel.