Sunday, July 22, 2007

Nit eich meint men



Regarding Circus Tent: One Sunday in Sivan;

Rav Tzvi Kahana was an Alter Mirrer who later moved to Eretz Yisroel and started his own Yeshivah. It seems like it is a sort of unique Yeshivah, in that it seems to have all types of students there, from modern "Mizrachi" to "Meah Shearim" types. He passed away in 5756. He seemingly didn't buy into the Misnaged gibberish he was hearing in Bnei Beraq at the end of the 5740's about the Rebbe and Lubavitch, but some of the supposed Taynes bothered him, so he decided he'll go ask the Rebbe himself. I guess he was in New York anyway, since he had his wife - the daughter of Harav Yitzchok Arieli - with him, and I don't think he would come antagonize the Rebbe with his Rebbetzin at his side.

So, we can imagine his surprise when the Rebbe "as if" let loose on him, and gave him "in Tatten's arein"as if he were public enemy No. 1. After all, he really wanted to know what the story was, and he never really got a straight answer. But I imagine that had Reb Zvi a trop seichel, which he seemingly did, he would've known that the Rebbe didn't mean him. He knew that the message would get back to the elements in Bene Beraq, and he wanted them to hear him without addressing them directly. The point here was not defending the position of Lubavitch re; Sukkah, because that's really not the gripe they have with Lubavitch. Other Chassidishe Minhogim, often times Heypech Shulchan Aruch bother nobody. The fact that they had no problem with "any other Rebbe" just goes to show you how they sat there like Tattelech listening at the Moetzes meetings, and shaking their heads in unison when the Roshei Yeshivah decided something.

The problem for them was the Rebbe, a thorn in their collective sides, and nothing he could say or do would make him find favor in their eyes, unless he sat quietly and became one of the "Yes-Men." Not the first "thorn" but the seventh for some of them, but the greatest of them all. Now they finally had good reason for the 200-plus years. Of course, one could not just point fingers at him without "good reason," so they sat and scrutinized all that he said and did, and they found plenty of "proof" for their stance, including quotes from "Gedolim." So you see Rabbi Kahana, "Nit eich meint men," you're only the messenger.

42 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hatred, hatred and more hatred. This is the summation of all your years in Lubavitch.

The war against those who strayed from the paths of their fathers (i.e., Chassidim) is over as they have demonstrated alligance to Hashem and halacha (in most cases) and have produced great men. The fact is that there is a great deal of cooperation and ahava between the two. Not so you. You have to slant every single thing into a larger political issue. That is a lot easier, after all, than actually assuming responsibility and acknowledging facts for what they are. If all followerd of the Besht and Gaon get along, and but one is causing tzoros, and he is getting it in the head for it, then maybe its not about chassidim vs. non-chassidim. Maybe its about someone's hashkafos which are causing many yiddin to run amok with ignorance and hatred toward Jews (like yourself), blasting with the worst personal insults gedolei yisroel who you will never reach in any respect, and who your own Rebbe probably never reached. The utter chutzpah and lack of basic menchlichkeit that you demonstrate against gedolei yisroel--nay, all other Jews aside from Lubavitchers--on the eve of Tisha B'Av is so telling and demonstrative of the prophetic nature of chachomim who condemnded the Rebbe for not taking charge of his followers and correcting them for the ethno and egocentric nature of Lubavitch--not to mention its messianic overtones and deification of the Rebbe ("as if").

You need to use you amazing powers of criticsm and direct it toward yourself and your kind. That is all you will be able to control in the end. And there is plenty to fix. You literally had to make things up to find fault in the so-called misnagdim camp. And your obsession with finding faults in them shows you lack something in your heart. Its just not Jewish enough. Certainly not today.

Hirshel Tzig said...

you make my job here sooo easy.

have a meaningful fast.

mm770 said...

to annon.

"Alot of nothing"

Have a great day!

Anonymous said...

Herschel,

Don't try to be clever. You have demonstrated enormous evasiveness. What else are you hiding?

Anonymous said...

mm770,

then who can being to imagine what I can write about YOU? Don't you realize with all the cute shtochs aside, there is no justification for sinas chinam? Nothing can excuse maligning gedolei yisroel? You have no explanation for your or Tzgi's remarks, probably because you are not thinking before you write. But, for goodness sakes, a chachom lev loves mussar. Learn from your mistakes to become a more complete Jew and person. Stop looking badly at everyone else. You can be wrong.

mm770 said...

Where do you get Sinas Chinam from a simple reply of "Alot of nothing". WOW!

I am not looking badly at you or anyone else - so hope you can sleep well tonight.

However, my astute observation still stands

Have a great day!

Anonymous said...

A whole lot of nothing would describe most of what is posted on this blog.

A similar rosy picture could be painted about Chairman Mao or the King of Thailand. There really is no difference since its all just mindless propaganda in the end.

Anonymous said...

There we go again, cute shtuch--no tochen.

Stop being a brainless follower.

migdal said...

I can't understand what a post like this on Erev Tisho Beov accomplishes?
Really now, Hirshel, you are getting carried way overboard.You never read the Rebbes sicho of Ahavas Chinom??

Sinas chinom said...

Why is everyone so obsessed about writing seeming recriminations in the 3 weeks, in the 9 days, erev Tisha beAv, or on Tisha beAv? What difference do these dates make? Where do you find any special prohibition to talk any particlar way during those days?

There is no worse violation of ahavas Yisroel and mutual respect than to protest any real or seeming violations thereof during those days. You nitwits impkly that the rest of the year it is OK! Och un vey on these would-be protectors of halachah, tradition and ahavas Yisroel! Shame on you!

Anonymous said...

Hirshel is on the point 100%

The minute the Lev Simcha of Gur started to differ with Moron in leadership issues of the party,he started to bicker and eventualy he broke up the Aguda and went on his own to create his newspaper and hashgacha (that is constantly under clouts of scandal and is being saved on a bimonthly basis by the holy sage Eliashev)And Lev Leachim thet eventualy ended up as a fund raising tool for a few connected families.Its amazing how Nishmas yisroel started being a topic in those circles.

migdal said...

Sinas chinom:
Take a chill pill.In Hilchois Rosh Hashona the Shulchan Oruch brings down that even people who are meikil all year round to eat pas palter should be careful about it during aseres yemei teshuva-the question is:mimo nafshoch if its muttar all year round why be machmir now and if it's ossur why only be machmir now?Eloh mai, before yom hadin we want to show Hashem that we go the extra mile.Obviously all year round there is no heter for malicious gossip, but people are moreh heter, 'he belongs to a different party/chassidus' or 'on such a yid it's a mitva to speak loshon hora' but before the day that the beis hamikdosh was destroyed, even than, we cannot have one bit of achdus?
C'mon now.

Anonymous said...

Hirsch is one thousand percent wrong. Even after the foundation of Degel, he was still close with the Gerrer Rebbes. While there are, obviously, differences of opinion (in STARK contrast to the Rebbe's [purposeful?] misrepresentation in your post below) even before the war, not a single Chassidus was treated the way Lubavtich was. Not even close. Ever. Not since Shabbetai Tzvi (or with respect to the Ramchal and the Rebbe, R' Yonasan, R' Yaakov Emden), did any single person recieve such strong condemnation and censure from so many leaders. This is NOT about chassidim vs. misnagdim, or bickering over traditions, this is about one man's crusade against the world, how it alienated the majority of the frum world, and an obstinant refusal on our part to get along with anyone. Yes, Lubavitch does kiruv. But they will never love a Satmar chussid the way they love a druggie on some college campus. I know, I am lubavitch. But I have at the very least to sanity to see where we have made some mistakes in the past, and how some of our tzorus were caused by our obstinance. Our hatred.

arbiter said...

Anonymous- You're not even Lubavitch. Your entire post smacks of made up bullshit, repeating the same banal crap that the other posters here wrote. You snags have reached a new low.

It's too easy to read between the lines of your post.

Anonymous said...

Its sadly to easy to read the lines of your post.

The swearing, the name calling, the false accusations--this is not the Lubavitch I was raised in. I suggest that you are not a Lubavitcher--that you are in fact not Jewish--and that you are trying to give us all a bad name.

Its not about "snags" (what a vile term) versus chassidim. Its about one man, one mission, one statement that no one else accepts. If you cannot be honest with yourself, fine. But have the decency to write like a mentch before you write a response. And try to be reasonable, too. Its unfair to write nivul peh which other Jews are forced to read.

arbiter said...

What are you on about? What man, what statement, what mission? What are you saying?

You don't speak like a Lubavitcher. You're missing the nuances that are so characteristic of Lubavitch talk... I could break it down systematically, starting from where you said I'm not Jewish. No Lubavitcher, product of the Lubavitch system, would ever say that, even for arguments sake. Then we'll add on your utter disregard for any of the Rebbe's Kovod- "purposeful misrepresentation"??!?!?!

You can read through your first post and figure out exactly where you were going to create this apologetic Lubavitcher image. Then besides that, word usage like "kiruv" and "chussid" kinda give it away. And, changing the scope of an argument to being about a writer's usage of expletives is also emphatically suggestive of typical snag rhetoric.

I'm not calling you a figurative non-Lubavitcher or snag, I'm telling you that you are an actual non-Lubav.

Anonymous said...

I am saying that you area non-Jew mocking Jews and Lubavitchers worldwide. I will not fall into this trap.

arbiter said...

Trap? What trap? You're not in a trap, you just sloppily don't bother covering your tracks.

You're not a Lubavitcher, you're the same "anonymous" {Misnagid} that responds on every other post here. If the choice of language didn't give it away, your time pattern definitely does. In the future if you ever decide to play the game, wait a bit longer than two minutes to reply to the next post. And, don't follow that same pattern of responding automatically to every challenge posed against you. I can't imagine that there are that many people out there staying home from work today with enough patience to look out for each and every reply.

Cummon... grow up buddy.

Anonymous said...

Again, I will not respond to a non-Jew who insults my Rebbe and my people. Grow up and visit your non-Jewish sights. Stop interfering with our ways, you hate monger.

sinas chinom said...

Migdal, why do you mix apples and oranges? Going the extra mile, i.e., additional hidur, for something that in principle is muttar but not advisable, cannot be compared to temporary observance of an outright issur that is the equivalent of the 3 cardinal capital offenses of the Torah! At the very least, refraining from loshon hora in the 9 days etc. and ignoring that horrible sin before and after, is at best echte ve'oshuv - and you know the sequel: ein maspikin beyodo la'asos teshuvah!

arbiter said...

I'm not following the central assumption behind any of this... care to embellish it a bit?

Non-Jew?

"Insults" your Rebbe?

Your people?

Your ways?

Non-Jewish sites?

Hate monger?

migdal said...

Sinas Chinom:
So your 'brilliant' eitsa is :Speak loshon hora/rechilus a gantz yohr!Bravo.
Where did you get this type of logic from?

Anonymous said...

>>I'm not following the central assumption behind any of this... care to embellish it a bit?

Non-Jew?

"Insults" your Rebbe?

Your people?

Your ways?

Non-Jewish sites?

Hate monger?

All that is what you, you vile anti-semite, are. Now leave my people alone. Go to a bar or something.

arbiter said...

Geez, why are you so livid?

Anonymous said...

You display what can only be called cognitive dissonance. A chabad chossid, who believes his rebbe no mater if it is factually correct or not, and takes any type of action against any person , if he thinks his rebbe wants it- then goes on to complain about misnagdim blindly following their rov. Complete dishonesty.

arbiter said...

1. Thanks for the diagnosis doc.

2. So are you admitting that you're not a Lubavitcher now? Is this a subtle confession that you resorted to lying and deception?

3. Again, what are you on about? What action did I take against anyone? When did the Rebbe tell me to take action? And why shouldn't my Rebbe be factually correct?

4. How should I not complain about blind following {not sure that I ever did, but whatever} when those said blind followers only reply to my queries with asinine comments, creating events that never transpired and putting words in my mouth that I never said?

Anonymous said...

He is not the same one as me. Herschel can confirm that. I am a Lubavitcher, and I am the fellow who wrote that I am a Lubavitcher above.

Again, you non-Jewish, anti-semetic upbrining aside, its inappropriate to bother people on the basis of their religion. Please cut it out.

arbiter said...

Hershel?

Hirshel Tzig said...

I have an email address, use it.

Anonymous said...

Arbiter,

I expect an apology. I was not the same anonomous poster above.

sinas chinom said...

migdal said...
Sinas Chinom:
So your 'brilliant' eitsa is :Speak loshon hora/rechilus a gantz yohr!Bravo.
Where did you get this type of logic from?

Sorry, my friend, that is YOUR logic. My point is to refrain from loshon hora all the time, as opposed to you who suggests eating treif all year but to refrain from it in Tishrei (or erev Tisha Be'av). Don't read your train of thought into my words!

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous 4:44

next time use a unique name, instead of anonymous. It might help.

formally known as anonomous 4:44 said...

No problem.

Arbiter: apology, please?

Hirshel Tzig said...

that should read "formerly," not formally.

formerly known as Anonomous 4:44 said...

writing way too fast.

Still awaiting an apology

arbiter said...

I wouldn't dream of apologizing to someone who consistently calls me a non-Jew.

formerly known as anonomous 4:444 said...

But you ARE a non-jew. . . Besides the fact that you led me to believe that by dint of your accusations that I am a liar, you were shown to be wrong, you are writing that you believe that you don't have to acknowledge emes when its presented to you. That's a Jew? That's a chussid? Not in my book.

Hirshel Tzig said...

ok, enough with the "non-Jew" accusations. Next time it gets deleted.

Anonymous said...

Got it, so long as he accuses me, that's fine. Only when I give the benefit of the doubt because I cannot believe a jew acts a certain way, THEN, THAT HAS to be delted. Fair? Logical. Of course!

arbiter said...

For the record, I still don't believe you, yet another reason I wouldn't embarrass myself by apologizing.

Anonymous said...

You don't believe that I am not the same anonomous? You know that I am not. Be a man and apologize, or show yourself as a moral scumbag.

Anonymous said...

Interestingly much of this is superceaded now that satmar build mikvaos in lubavitch and every movement does kiruv the chabad way- with spirituality and love.
So anon you cant say the rebbe alienated as much as he charted the course for them to follow either agreeably or not (at first).
Ashreinu!