Tuesday, July 17, 2007

Harry goes to confession

Speaking of some in the MO community Harry Maryles includes himself when bemoaning some of the very questionable behavior that goes on in the MO community:

Their lifestyles include as much assimilation with the general culture as possible to the point where some of their activities border on Issurei Arayos, those laws guiding sexual behavior. Here are a couple of observations I have made over the years.

*Far too many Modern Orthodox Jews can be seen dancing with the spouses of other people at weddings and Bar Mitzvos that have social dancing.

*Mixed swimming is the norm in the MO communities. Women will wear the most fashionable two piece bathing suits they can afford. Yes, I’ve seen it. I admit that I used to go mixed swimming in the Glatt Kosher Hotels in Miami Beach back in the eighties. I no longer do. The truth is there were plenty of Charedi Jews by the pool too. The men wore black hats to Shul and in the streets. The women wore expensive wigs and were normally very modest in their dress,well within Halacha. But they also went to the pool every day. They covered their hair at the pool… but not much else! Their kids? Well, many had Peyos and in most cases went to right wing Yeshivos in New York.

I wonder where David Berger fits in here, and if he wrote his book while watching those "very fashionable..........."


Anonymous said...

"I wonder where David Berger fits in here, and if he wrote his book while watching those "very fashionable..........."

Is this new cheap shot likovod the nine days ? How low can you go ? You owe an apology to מורנו הרה"צ דר. בּרגר שליט"א

And what were the Lubavitchers who have gone off the deep end watching ? Videos from 770 ?

Anonymous said...

David Berger is a yerei Shamayim. I think he goes overboard, but he is a medakdek bemitzvos.

Anonymous said...


Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Interesting how the do-gooders complaining about my low blows on Berger have no problem with the content of the original post by Harry, who they so love, where he speaks of Charedi indiscretions in Miami.

Anonymous said...

"Interesting how the do-gooders complaining about my low blows on Berger have no problem with the content of the original post by Harry, who they so love, where he speaks of Charedi indiscretions in Miami."

Hirshel - the subject of this group of comments is not Harry. We are focusing on your shlepping in מורנו הרה"צ דר. בּרגר שליט"א here when he appeared nowhere in Harry's post.

האסט שוין פארגעסען די רש"י (חז"ל) וואס פרעגט "מה ענין שמיטה אצל הר סיני ?"

Anonymous said...

Dovid Berger is a anikil of the Brownsville Rebbe, of the Noviminsk family

Anonymous said...

Isn't it the 9 Days? Or does that no longer apply in Crown Heights?

Just another example of that famous Chabad 'ahavas yisroel'.

Anonymous said...

How Berger got schlepped in here is 'interesting'
He wrote a well researched book, that was on the money.A normal Lubavitcher once confided in me that had Lubavitch 'chapped a shockel' from the book at the time, they would have gotten rid of the Meshichisten, who are today, totally off the deep end.Instead Lubavitch got out it's big guns to 'battle' Berger and left most people with the feeling that normal Lubavitch have no problem with Meshichists.Basically, shooting themselves in the foot.

Anonymous said...

Berger's magnus opus is flawed in many respects and written in a gratuitously inflammatory fashion. He could have written a powerful book but lost credibility in rolling out his published diatribe. Who gave their haskama on the book?

Anonymous said...

I'm pretty sure you did not read the book.Most Lubavitchers did not, but it doesn't stop them from saying how 'inflammatory' it was.How would they know?
'Flawed in many respects'??Sounds like you are describing the Lubavitch Moshiach campaign.Left am yisroel and yes Lubavitch biterly divided.But it is so much easier to blame others.
Learn a bit from Harry Maryles who is prepared to admit when he or his group are wrong.

Anonymous said...

The attack on Rabbi David Berger is absurd, Its totaly gratuitous.
What does Dr. David Berger have to do with the issue you write about. I doubt you have ever met Berger or his family, who are all erliche Yidden major league talmide chachomim, and Banshaks.Gezogt gevoren af asach frume "heimishe Yidden in Brooklyn"
I think neither you or rabbi Maryles ahve ever been to YU, Teaneck , Bergenfield and other sattelite communities full of Bnai Tore from YU and other MO yeshivas in Israel. As a matter of fact the new MO is much frummer in Inyone Ishus than his or her parents.
Frankly there may well exist people like the good rabbi talks about, but lets not forget the eylam in Flatbush who were briefly in the headlines a few years ago in the tragic accident in the Rockies and these people were in Las Vegas and wore shtreimlech on Shabbes vechuli.
Like all groups including Chabad there are people who are frummer and those who are infected by the American material culture.

Milhouse said...

I did read the book when it came out, and it did shock me, but not in a way that Berger intended. The book is littered with gross misstatements of fact, stupid assumptions that showed how little he knew about his subject (any Lubavitcher could have corrected many of these, had he bothered to ask one). But besides these little things, it betrays a major flaw in its premise.

The entire book is based on the premise that if he can establish that Chabad is like the first generation of Xians, then he has landed a damning blow. He never stops to consider whether those early Xians, who believed that their dead rebbe was the moshiach, were michutz lamachaneh. He assumes that Jews must not be like those people, that we must not share their belief, that there is some sort of avera or apikorsus in doing so. But he never bothers to prove it.

I have been saying for the past 13 years, long before Berger's book came out, that the meshichistn are exactly like those early Xians. But I don't see it as a chisoron. You will not find a din, in Shulchon Oruch, Rambam, or anywhere else, that one must not believe that moshiach will come from the dead. Es shtait nisht. And if someone wants to believe that of Yoizel, as far as I'm concerned gezunterheit. So long as he believes in everything that a Jew must believe, and keeps all the dinim that a Jew must keep, he can believe whatever else he likes. The only things he might be over on are the possuk ve'omru rak am chochom venovon hagoy hagodol hazeh, and the line in Tanya which says ve'al yehi shoteh. But we all have our own mishugassen, so I'm willing to let this be his. Al achas kamoh vekamoh when he believes not in Yoizel but lehavdil in the Rebbe.

Berger, though, seems to be fixated on the idea that Yiddiskeit is defined as not-Christianity, and whatever he can identify as Xianity must automatically be anathema to Jews. Well, it ain't so, and this invalidates his entire jihad against Lubavitch.

One piece in his book starkly demonstrates the depth of his blind fanaticism. He talks about a Lubavitcher he used to admire, who had shown amazing mesirus nefesh in the USSR, literal readiness to give up his life for der eibershter, and Berger used to admire him for it. But then he heard this Jew express himself in a way vos hot em nisht gefehlt, he heard this Jew say what he is convinced is apikorsus, and he wrote how much it pained him to have to reject this Jew and condemn him to the depths of the Pit, chas vesholom.

Her tzu, if this person is such a paragon, and he says something that you don't like, did it cross your mind that maybe he's right and you're wrong? Did you even consider it for a moment? Maybe you too should become a meshichist like him? If you did think of it, but after careful consideration were not persuaded, meileh; I'm also not convinced, I also don't share this yid's views, so how can I demand it of you? But Berger didn't even consider the possibility. He's a fanatic, it's like he's a vampire and he's terrified of anything that even vaguely resembles a tzeilem, because his entire yiddishkeit seems to be defined as a negative; he's not a Jew, he's a not-Xian. He's made his career battling Xian missionaries, and for him now to admit that some of the arguments he made against them may not be as strong as he thought, this is impossible for him.

In reality, Berger and the neo-misnagdim are making exactly the same mistake as the radical meshichistn. The yellow people insist not just that the Rebbe is moshiach, but that everybody must acknowledge it, and one who denies it is an apikores. And the neo-misnagdim say the exact opposite; not only is the Rebbe not moshiach, but everyone must deny it, and one who accepts it is an apikores. Both sides of this coin are equally alien to ruach yisroel sabbo, and I reject both with equal vehemence.

(Nevertheless, while the meshichistn may not be apikorsim, they are embarrassing, and I wish they'd keep their eccentric views to themselves. But I wish the same about Manis Friedman with his homeopathy, and Mrs Halberstam with her crusade against the second amendment, etc. That doesn't make them michutz lamachaneh, or their wine and shchita treif, ch"v).

Anonymous said...

With all due respect you need to clarify many aspects of the relationship of Judaism to Nazruth. According to you many of the so called Hebrew christians are Jews in good standing. If you google these people you will note many who claim to be Orthodox Jews and beleive in JC as the Messiah, but practice Tore Judaism.. This mayn tayere is not acceptable in Judaism and believing in JC and wearing a shtreimel , and gartel is not Judaism.Read the rambam's Ani Maamin especially the one about I believe in the COMING (future tense) of Mashiach .
As far as "vu shtatit dos" in Shulchan aruch, Chassidim of the old school were want to say if someone asks Vu shtayt dos he is suspect of being varforen from the derech, vu shtayt dos is certainly not in the vocabulary of a Chassidic Jew as a matter of fact where does it say in the Shulchan Aruch that you need a rebbe for Mofsim etc, where does it say you needa Borsellino with x number of kneitchen ?
Again with all respect why don't you read some books on this subject and talk to some knowledgeable people about this.No a jew can not beleive in JC as the Messiah.Chad veChelek

Anonymous said...

Millhouse, your upside down logic, that it's okay to be a believer in Yoizel is very revealing. We know that you are a Lubavitcher and have a knee-jerk reaction to defending other Lubavitchers, but, come on, are there no limits? Maybe in a place where everything is kapoyeh crazy things look normal, but hey, is 770 down under that it should be an oilom hofuch?
Was the Rebbe as Aussie?

Rav Dovid Berger is a choshuver Yid, just because he has the 'chutzpeh' to say that the emperor (lubavitch) has no clothes, you have to attack him like a pit bull ?

Yechi Harav hatzaddik Rav Dovid shlita !