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Rabbi Belsky, שליט"א:
Not that what I do or say matters any after what other have called you in the last few years, but this is a new angle, and I'll explore it here. After what I read in the above article in this week's Mishpacha it's plain to see that you're like a 14-year old little bachur when it comes to Lubavitch, and I feel bad for our generation if these are our leaders. What's sad is that you're supposedly a very intelligent man in both Torah and wordly matters.
As far as Rabbi Miller in Toronto goes; I'd say he was pretty diplomatic about it, especially since he knows that he'd have to face Lubavitchers in Toronto. Sort of like when people speak about Farrakhan they mention the good that NOI does. Belsky has nobody to worry about, he doesn't deal with Lubavitchers, although I'm not sure he'd say what he said in the article to Mr.Rubashkin's face.
149 comments:
Hirshel
Try to get a transcript of his diatribe on the Rabonim of the Boro Park Eiruv he spewed truck driver lingo.
Not that it matters but his Tenant in his house is actually a Lubabitcher
What is wrong with what he said he is is essentially saying the messianic chabad are going to far
What is wrong with what he said he is is essentially saying the messianic chabad are going to far
No. He's attacking all of Chabad.
it just come to show you that rb ahavas yisrael is real, if he can have a lubab for a tenant.....
last time I checked Lubavitcher dollars were green too. If he'd have a Yeshivisher tenant he'd have a hard time with him if the guy defaults on rent, etc.
Tzig
I think it's high time you stop being anonymous.If you want to dish out dirt about people be man enough to give a name.
Orur makeh reeihu baseiser.
N.B I'm pretty sure someone will do it for you, since you are getting bolder by the day
You don't know Rabbi Belsky if you think he wouldn't say it to Rubashkins face.
He is a brave man physically and spiritually
Rabbi Belsky is possul leaides. Look in his eyes, he is blind, sumo possul leadis.
I believe the man pictured is Rabbi Heineman of Baltimore, who was also interviewed.
I think the rabonim were more or less on the mark. Rabbi Miller is known to have told many people not to eat lubavither shechita or hechsherim for the reasons he stated.
I can absolutely guarantee you that they never bothered to find out what some Lubavitchers "hold" regarding Rebbe=Moshiach.
So goes it today, ever since you-know-who was in charge, people just make statements, without bothering to back them up.
the man in the picture is rabbi heinamin.
Everyone knows what ALL lubavitchers believe inside (that the rebbe is mashiach , or even more than that), the difference, is some are out in the open about it and others dont want the world to know that they are brainwashed.
"you know who"?. no, not really who?
Lets stop all this plaplerai for a sec.Has any Orthodox group in Jewish History had their shechitta status questioned?
Only Lubavitch and only 'Dayr hashvi'i' Lubavitch.
Food for thought
DOESNT the gemara say that moshiach can be from the dead...
ah misnagd blabt a misnaged
Benny must never have read the history of the Hisnagdus to Chassidim in the times of the Maggid and the Alter Rebbe. He's the poster boy of today's snag: knows nothing and makes very broad statements. Then again, according to Belsky it's OK to cover up for a child molester.
belsky lie #1:
"...these goals which we share and do not contest." They sure did, the whole misnagishe leadership (read kotler & co) was dead set against the kiruv work initiated by the Freirdiker Rebbe in the 1940s.
belsky lie #2:
He repeats the usual lie that Chabad "deifies" the Rebbe. A pretty heavy accusation. But these days they don't need to site any wrongful actions – the 'gedeilim' can read our THOUGHTS and can, mikkeiyach teirosom, accuse entire congregations of the worst sins! (Is there hell hot enough to atone for this?)
belsky lie #3:
He purports to speak as a purveyor of "daas Teiroh" who can decide what does and what doesn't have a "place in Yiddishkeit". Yet all he has to say is that there is a some "cult of personality" (a novel concept in halacha) because Lubavitchers venerate the Rebbe too much.
ווער האט אנגעמאכט אזעלכע גדולים?
The alter Rebbe said that Moshiach would be a misnaged.
R Belsky is bingo on and the otehrs basically agreed with him. The fact that a recognized, respected publication such as Mishpacha even asked the question, as opposed to, say, what do you think about Belz- says it all. Chabad is beyond the pale legamri.
I agree- Belzky said whatever everyone else was thinking. They are off the map.
Kudos to Modia for running it.
Yisrael Belsky was always hostile to Chabad long long before the Rebbe's passing. He was known in Torah Vodaas as a student 50 years ago for his opposition and was always seeking confrontaion with Hassidim even going to 770 to look for fights with people. One can only speculate that as an American native - his family came here in the 1860s- he resented the excitment and success Chabad had with kiruv. Do others have another thesis for his hostility.
A thesis for his hostility;
Rabbi Blesky, as a leading posek, is in touch with halacha. To deify a human being, a dead one at that, to G-d like status is a violation of halacha. Hence the hate.
Anyone that can paint any group with a total broad stroke whether positive or negative is a bigot. And Belsky is a bigot against Chabad, which taints all of his other statements and judgements on any issues. He sounds like an extraordinary egotist.He completely denegrates the work the Chabad in all the good they do is a sin in itself. Maybe he thinks he is moshiach.
To every one commenting here,
If anyone read the article they can easily see that the questions and answers are ridiculous as most of them can be answered by a 5 year old. It is also plain to see that Rabbi Belsky really enjoys having everyone read his opinions. "I" anochi mee sheanochi disagree. This type of speech is prevalent throughout R' Belskys comments. The OU has their trouble with him too. There are certain things that he disagrees with yet does not state openly (DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY PAY HIM). One example: Ask him if you are allowed to eat Tuna fish from a non-Jewish company with the certification of the OU. THEY JUST USE HIM WHEN IT IS GOOD FOR THEM AND HUSH HIM UP WHEN THEY NEED TO.
Which Belsky is this? the RY from TV that is the OU posek? Or is there another belsky
Mendel
RY and OU Posek, yes.
I don't much care for Belsky, but I think he's spot-on re Lubavitch.
Question:
Where can I get real information about the rebbe/meshicist thing?
My real question is about believing that the Rebbe is Moshiach. I know there's two sides to the story.
Is it assur or not?
If you can't answer me in this forum, can you please tell me where to find this info?
It is better to be waiting every day for a dead moshiach than not to be thinking about moshiach at all and denigrating all Lubavitchers: the first is being mekayem an ikkar haddas of "achake loi bechol yom sheyovo" while the second is not only not being mekayem this ikkar, but is also oyveir on many issurim min hatorah re: aveiros shebein odom lachaveiroi.
-friendly anonymous
The chalav akum-chalav treifa which he is mattir for the OU and machshil so many with, must have realy been metamtem hamoach vehalev as we all see here.
I was surprised to see such a comments in the generally pareve Mishpacha magazine. I wish these "gedolim" would cite to some authority when they make these comments. the gemoro (sanhedrin in the tzadiks)says that moshiach can be from the dead.
If you can relate to most respected rabbonim as 'kotler&co' in an earlier comment by Berl,CH, how can you expect and demand respect for your rebbeim ?
Btw, there was never a hisnagdus to kiruv, in fact many of the kiruv style activities done by Chabad such as sending out shluchim are based on the Novardoker style outreach back in Russia and later in Poland.
Chabad does excellent work but has some work to do regarding getting along with other heimishe Jews.I don't think it's only Chabads problem,I think it's a two way street,but it's high time to let bygones be bygones and a first step would be to give minimal respect to leaders of the yeshiva world(After all 'kotler&co' have the largest yeshiva network in America)
With all due respect I ask that you post this comment.I've tried once or twice in the past to comment respectfully but have not managed to pass muster.Thank you
The Satmar who who insulted the Rebbe and burnt a figure of the Rebbe on Purim in Williamsburg while all of Satmar, young and old cheered in the streets....
This Satmar responsible for this was subsequently killed in Missa Meshuna in very horrible car accident.
Dovid,
This has to be said once and for all – Chabad never initiated any attacks on 'the yeshiva-world leadership'. No one insulted Kotler before he went on a rampage against the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe in the early '40. No one sought out Shach - he is the one that started the campaign of hate against Lubavitch in the yearly '80s and went as far as declaring our mikvoyeis posul!!!
Now you want me to show reverence to these people and 'let bygones be bygones', as if this was some kind of a two-way fight that is now long over. Unfortunately, the fight was one-way and it is still going on (as you see in the Miashpacha article). What kind of 'bygones' are we talking about? Let the 'yeshiva world leadership' go through a process of 'de-nazification', apologize publicly for the past wrongs, call off the attack dogs, stop teaching hate in their schools, and then we can talk about respect.
Berl,
Either you are lying, have no memory or are a youngster. Tell me what exactly “ Skop, Trop and Wasserman” did to Chabad to be referred to in such a manner?
So believing in a dead moshiach is better than being עובר on לא תשנא את אחיך, granted.
The Rabbis say it's assur and passul, and someone here wrote that the gemara says it's okay?
so what's the deal?
and, is it fundemental for a lubsvitcher to believe that the rebbe is moshiach?
I'm starting to feel pessimistic again.After reading Berels remarks.
Lately there were signs of thawing and an end of the cold war between Chabad and some in the Yeshiva world on top of some Satmar chasidim aiding Lubavitcher shlichim etc.Now it seems that this will have to go on till there is a process of 'de-nazification' (c'mon, don't you think you could have chosen a different term??).Obvioulsly this will not happen, so (at least)in Berls eyes we, heimishe yidden are doomed to continue a fight that has not been marbe kvoid shomayim.
Ad mosai??
Darkness my friend,
There is an interesting question asked by the Chasam Sofer:
How can it be that 'until 10 generations, don't insult gentiles in front of a ger", because this will upset the convert, yet there are Jews that hate other Jews with a passion, and we are talking first-generation Jews, and not even till 10 generations?
To paraphrase, he answers based on the famous Ramban on the posuk "pen yeish bochem shoresh poreh rosh", that if a Jew can feel such hate for another Jew, look at the hater's grandfather and you'll find a Conservative rabbi, mechalel shabbos, etc.
"Skop, Trop and Wasserman"?????
I have no idea what you are taking about, I have never heard these rabbonim to be referred to with anything but utmost respect!
Twisty
surely you don't compare a jest made by some, and very few, to an all-out offensive in papers etc.?
How could he allow so many hashgochos of the OU be done by lubavitchers? L'shitosoi it is encouraging something that has "no place". ela mai we have to say that al pi din it is not such a ketza'akasa. iz vos dreit er a kop. BTW take out the word moshiach from his second paragraph and it sounds like artscroll describing a litvishe godol.
Twisty
There is a difference to what one says in private (noch abisl mashke) to public statements.
Mendel
Dovid -Chabad sent out shluchim in the times of the Rashab and before . . .
How can you allow a comment calling for the de-nazification of the yeshiva leadership through.Have you lost all sensitivity to the 6 million?Is a defense of Lubavitch important enough, even for that?Or is not hurting a favourite poster overiding??
Whatever the case, shame on you!
your protest is dully noted. he did put it in quotes.
It's DULY
Why can't you admit to being wrong, without finding an 'excuse'.As if putting it in quotes makes it any better....
I don't scrutinize every word commenters write. Worse things get through. I only noticed it after the fact, hence the justification.
DULY, DULLY, whatever.
'Worse things get through'
Yeah....now what could be worse than implying that leading rabbonim need to go through a 'de-nazification process'??
Yeah....now what could be worse than implying that leading rabbonim need to go through a 'de-nazification process'??
for one, calling a Rebbe Je---, and using vulgar, profane language.
1. tzig is not responsible for my words (he allows much worse things through).
2. the term 'de-nazification' is now widely used for other purposes.
3. what this has got to do with the 'sensitivity to the 6 million' really beats me.
4. do you people even know what the term means?
5. as usual - ignore the substance you can't address and pick on one offensive word.
'ignore the substance'
There was no substance. The focus then turned to the unacceptable language
Twisty,
I am a 69 year old Lubavitcher who learned only in Lubavitcher yeshivas when I was a bochur and never did I hear“ Skop, Trop and Wasserman” .As far as Rav Shach is concerned when I was learning in Kfar Chabad he was a rosh hayishiva in some Bnei Akiva yeshiva and was not considered much of a "gadol" at the time.He then came to Kfar Chabad to give a proba shiur which was torn to pieces by a bachur who is now a Rosh Hayshiva in a Lubavitcher Mosad.Of course he was not accepted by Lubavitch and as a result bore a animosity to Lubavitch and the Rebbi.How do know this? Not from hearsay and innuendo but because I was at the Shiur when this incident occured.He subsequently became rosh hayishiva in Ponivitch and was promoted to the "gedolim" hall of fame.
Concerning Rav Aaron Kotler I remember very clearly when the incident with his derision of the Frierdike Rebbi occured even though I was a child then but I remember the shock of my family and in particuler that of my uncle who was a R"H in a Litveshe yeshiva at the time.When the Frierdike Rebbi was niftar in 1948 every single gadol attended the Levaye with the exception of one.You guessed it, Reb Aaron Kotler.Years later when Reb Aaron left this world the entire Litveshe velt was up in arms as to why the Rebbi did not attend of course ignoring the slap to the face that he gave the Frierdike Rebbe.
As to the subject of accusation of the diefication of the Rebbi , by our "friends"in the Litveshe velt, who have repeated this lie so often that they actually have come to believe it themselves ,enough has been said (shades of Gobeles and the" big Lie")
Of course the Litveshe,Yeshiveshe velt will continue to villify Lubavitch with their "don't confuse me with the facts" ad bias Hagoel Tzedek bimheiro biyomeinu.
Where will this tit for tat get us?
In the words of Rodney King 'can't we all just get along'?
and where's Mr. King today?
Arthur, (nice 'Jewish' name btw)
You are a bold faced liar!
Rav Shach was in Ponovizh while the Chabad yeshiva was still in Lud and he never said a shiur there, some boys came to speak with him in learning.Also the Frierdike Rebbe died in 1950.
'arthur' is probably a little kid...
Kfar Chabad was considered part of Lud at that Time and yes he did give a shiur there and the Bachur who tore it apart Was Reb Yisroel Friedman now Rosh Hayishive Of Oholei Torah and I was there.As to the exact year of the the Frierdike Rebbis Ptirah that is not the point. Whenever it was Kotler did not attend.
As to my age I for obvious reasons don't have to prove anything concerning me to you.
The fact that you have to stoop to villification of me just proves what I wrote in my previous post.You guys will not be confused by the facts.
Dovid, I missed this:
"Obvioulsly this will not happen, so (at least) in Berls eyes we, heimishe yidden are doomed to continue a fight that has not been marbe kvoid shomayim."
Dovid, unlike the 'yeshiva-world', Lubavitch doesn't have it's rabbonim make public pronouncements vilifying the derechim of other orthodox Jews. That being the case, what exactly do you want Lubavitch to do to in order to stop this fight? That Lubavitchers simply accept the views of their detractors?
Hey, would the following statement be what you expect me to say?
"Yes, Moreinu HoRav Shach זצ"ל said the mikvah my wife attended is posul because it was a Chabad mikvah and thus my kids are bnei nida. Yes, this was a little upsetting to me, but surely I still have a lot of respect to this giant of Torah and he has the right to his opinion..."
"Yes Horav Hagaon Belsky שליט"א sais that I and my kids are idol-worshipers who deify the Rebbe. I admit, it's a little unsettling, but I am stoic in my admiration to him as a Torah scholar and besides – he might even have a point here. I have to ponder it."
To berl & co.,
Think what you like, most frum yidden outside of Lubavitch agree with the article. Lubavitch is Waaaayyyyy out there.
Epistle No. 23 & No.24 to the Lubavitchers, by SCHNEUR ZALMAN of NY
Epistle No. 23:
(via comments to this post)
In the various Blogs one is bombarded with criticism of Chabad shluchim and the concept of shlichus in general. I am getting tired of these tirades. Let people make a living. While I find myself agreeing with most of this criticism except when it does not recognize that some Chabad houses, some shluchim and some activities they do are positive in nature. Yes they do positive things at many important levels.
What dismays me is how a great spiritual movement has turned itself into a Jewish Salvation Army. Lehavdil it is as if the Jesuits with all their "spiritual" and scholarly skills have morphed into the Salvation Army. Lubavitch under its first set of leaders was dedicated to the study of Jewish mysticism in a personal sense. The Rebbe was not a superman rather a personal trainer to help each Chasid realize his spiritual potential. Miracles were not stressed in Lubavitch. That was for "Peylishe" Chasidim.
Thus there were elite Chasidim concentrating on Prayer (ovdim) who may have worshipped for hours praying on a personal plan, studying Chasidic texts and lessons. Others were masters of Chasidic scholasticism (Maskilim) who strove to understand the Divine, its guiding light and force. Questions worked on in Lubavitch were what is man, what is Godliness, how does divinity impact on this material world. Still others strove at various lower levels to accomplish better prayer and study. In addition the study of Nigleh was never ignored. No other Chasidic group can boast men like Rav Yuda Leib Zirelson, the Rogochover, Rav A. Chaim Noeh of Jerusalem, Rav Nisson Telushkin and still other well known scholars. Even in modern times men like Rav Gutman, Rabbi Abramsky, Rav Brozovsky of Slonim, Rav Povarsky all served as Rabeim in Chabad schools.
Yet that is no longer the situation. It seems that today the stress is exclusively on activism, with little stress on personal growth, on self perfection and scholarship. Of course there are a few scholars in Lubavitch today like Rabbis Heller, Shapiro and Kalmenson. There are also a few young "varime" chasidishe Yidden in Jerusalem, 770 and Kfar Chabad. But most Lubavitchers are more expert on a press release or news conference than they are on a shvere Tosphos or do better fund raising than davening be-arichus.
Until 1994 at least Lubavitch still had hiskashrus to a Rebbe. Now it seems there is no Rebbe, no avoda, no learning, no Chassiduth. So Lubavitch has morphed into a Jewish version (lehavdil) of the Salvation Army. One is most likely to think of Lubavitch in terms of a telethon instead of a Chasid praying for 3 hours on a weekday. He encounters a Chasid dressed like a cyclist, a clown, a surfer or in a black tie fund raising event rather than a Chasid stooped over and learning Chassiduth. While Lubavitch always had a communal component it was never the major stress. Rather individual spiritual growth was what Chabad was all about. "Arbiten af zich" and pnimiuth were the key words in the inner world of Chabad. A 'chitzon' was the ugliest insult one could hurl at a Lubavitcher. Ironically enough it seems that there is no greater quality in today's Lubavitch than being a 'chitzon' a good PR man and fund raiser, able to work the crowds and attract attention. What has changed, how is it that a mighty and powerful movement that produced lofty spiritual leaders, seekers, gedolim, and baale avoda has morphed into a sophisticated public relations organization training its young men and women in PR techniques and in the art of fund raising?"
I normally read the Mishpacha in Hebrew and find it balanced, interesting and not at all anti. After reading the English Mishpacha this week I was shocked not just at the answers but especially at the question that took it as a given that Chabad is one of the issues challenging the charedi world. The questions concerning the MO and Mizrachi were equally offensive. Is the English Mishpacha always so bigoted and if so why don't all of us non-litvish boycott it?
The name Arthur is obviously a name deplume and no less a Jewish name then Anonymous that is used by %99 of the posters on this blog or any other
Im not what you call a Meshichist but where is their Makor that it's asur to believe a deceased person is Moshiach? A psak without a source is no psak.
Instead of being machmir on whatever why not be machmer on accepting and not Pasiling a whole group of Yidden.?!
lubab rabonim don't vilify other drochim and manhigim because it was done for them already....
To Anonymous #62
Here we go again."lubab rabonim don't vilify other drochim and manhigim because it was done for them already....". Another of the "I heard" "he said" "I read" innuendos. The big lie continues ala "Der Shturmer".Pray tell us who did it "for them already"? I'm holding my breath.The suspense is killing me.
Mishpocho Magazine tends to be very bigoted and racist, though they don't usually talk about Lubavitch. But yeah, they hate everybody, and there is zero censorship there. They make no effort to veil what would be construed bigotry by main-stream media. It's sometimes embarrassing that Frum people can be so small-minded. I hope no non-Jews come across the rubbish that they print.
I've opened it at random and found blatant hatred for non-Jews, more particularly of blacks and Arabs. They despise anything secular and Zionist. It comes as no surprise that they would eventually run an anti-Chabad column; anyone whom they can disagree with...
Additionally, I've never seen such shallow, pointless articles like the things fit for print in that magazine. True, there are some interesting articles, but some stuff, like the cover story a few weeks back about the "first Frum photographer" make you wonder whether this weekly ought to cut down their distribution to maintain quality... or maybe its publishers are that shallow.
Rabbi Werner from Monsey told us that he was his chavrusa back in the day. And he says that he has a very nice relationship with him till today.
""The Satmar who who insulted the Rebbe and burnt a figure of the Rebbe on Purim in Williamsburg while all of Satmar, young and old cheered in the streets....
This Satmar responsible for this was subsequently killed in Missa Meshuna in very horrible car accident.""
i am the one, i did not die yet ,i am alive and well buroch hashem and proud
Hirshel Tzig said...
I can absolutely guarantee you that they never bothered to find out what some Lubavitchers "hold" regarding Rebbe=Moshiach.
So goes it today, ever since you-know-who was in charge, people just make statements, without bothering to back them up.
A statement like that coming from you is almost laughable.
When was the last time you bothered finding out what the “other side” has to say. (e.g. Satmar, Munkatch, Chaim Berlin etc.)
People form opinions and then say it and you know that as well as anyone. I believe your blog has a lot more potential subscribers than the Mishpacha so your responsibility is no less than theirs.
I'm flattered by the responsibility you placed on me, but please don't compare me to a statement made by someone who supposedly has "Daas Torah."
NEMO- in addition to being brain dead and illiterate, you are also confused. Your rantings and ravings leave no room to imagine otherwise.
Why are they shallow and bigoted? What are you talking about that they hate goyim? What does it have to do with the photographer?
You are a fool
Hirshel Tzig said...
I'm flattered by the responsibility you placed on me, but please don't compare me to a statement made by someone who supposedly has "Daas Torah."
I’m not comparing you to Daas Torah….. you were bothered by the fact that people make statements without backing it up, which is kind of hypocritical when making serious allegations against sects, mosdos and yechidim is what you do for a living (so to speak) and I have yet to see you take a serious interest in what the other side has to say.
“Negios” is an unbelievable thing ……. When it comes to Chabad…….. suddenly there’s another side.
as long as we agree that the opinions expressed in the article are worth as much as my rantings....
The prooblem is most people don't think so, they think there's something a bissel hecher there!
Brain dead and confused perhaps, but illiterate???
fine ,forget illiterate.
also, you love arabs.
I think that just as Chabad is so extremely friendly with non frum croud (not only bc they r thesource of most money fundraising)and they tell them that Moshiach is Good ( they don't tell them that if Moshiach comes today the r Chaiav misa)
Just as ,since Also Chabad officially is NOT MOshichist,so in many places,many Shluchim Moschichistm r not allowed to say Yechi Adoneinu, or to tell the mekurovim that they think that the Rebbe is Moshiach,b/c thuis is the Chabad Oficial position
So too,it should be A DISPLAY view of Chabad a little different , related to the REBBE REBBE REBBE REBBE REBBE
Everyone knows that THE LUB REbbe is the source of inspiration for Lub
but,
what is the need for this chitzonius?
the grandfather of rabbi belsky was a shiniver chosid and rabbi belsky is not a misnaged
rabbi belsky never attacked chasidim
in this case re lubavs who believe that the rebbe is moshiach
there is one russin lubav who put out a big sugn on the hgway about the rebbe stating "yr lord have come" r"l this is kefira lechol hadieyes
and the gedolim of this dor chasidim or misnagdim are rightfully afraid that this is
a rehersal of the sabtai tzvi r"l
its painfull to see such a big chalek of klall yisroel are being sucked in this mosiachism and -shatai tzvi apikurses
The fact that people in Lubavitch would go so far as to lie about Rav Shach trying out for a position in a CHabad Yeshiva--and then being torn to pieces, kaviyochol--by some kid demonstrates how utterly low the Rebbe has made you become. Feh on the liars who said it; Feh on your parents who raised you to hate like that; and Feh on the Rebbe how encourages your sinas chinam.
i heard two lubos speaking and one wished the other 'the rebbe should bless you will all good.'
they ahve deified this person and rabbi belsky is a hero for saying it like it is!
RB is the only one with the backbone to say what he thinks, the others are just posturing. everybody knows they both have more extreme views then RB about lubavitch.
I agree. We need to be grateful to the Belskys and Heinemans of the world for allowing us to walk the streets of G-d's green earth. If they really wanted they could tell us we're not Jewish and need to be banned from their neighborhoods.
I thank them.
Anon:
I heard these two misnagdim speaking, and one told the other
"Chassidim put the blood of children in their matzos!"
I really heard it.
Nemo:
I surprised at you. I expect higher caliber posts.
Did he also talk about Grand Rabbi Kolko
Tzig,
You wrote about Belsky but there is also the Shtaiman Parsha (with Russia) to discuss and another Intresante thing that the Steipler bought Osios in Moshiach's Sefer Torah...
The fact that the young Smarkatches by them have Sinas Chinam towards Lubavitch (Ad Kdei Kach to make things up) Kvar Haya L'Olomim but that the "Gedolim" should also speak like this?!?!? Shomu Shamayim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Like the Brisker Rav said when a certain convention took place in Yerushalayim: S'Iz Da Azoi Fil Gedolim Es Iz Ah Shaila Oib M'Meg Machen Ah Bracha...
hershel
mishpacha said what most of lubavitch thinks, they just live in fear of the ruling party, the vocal nuts who scream yechi and make everyone agree. noone beleives he is mmoshiach. all these wackos did was ruin the good name of a great man and his chassidus. they tarnished the rebbe's great legacy forever with their stupidity.
mishpacha are heroes for saying what everyone thinks as as these true rabbanim, leaders who aren't scared to admit the truth.
If Rabbi Belsky would say that something to that affect, namely that he's so bothered that Lubavitch has been corrupted by the Meshichisten, then maybe I'd be inclined to believe that he's concerned for their welfare. I just happen to know that he personally ripped Likkutei Sichos as far back as 20 years ago, when there was very little Moshiach talk. What was his excuse then? did he too have that vayte kook that so many others had?
Puh-Leez.
that is sooo unfair. you cannot vilify what he said here- true- because of what you know he said elsewhere. that is cheap journalism and shameless 'negius.' he said nothing wrong in the mishpacha piece. face it!
what negius?? How can somebody like that be taken seriously???
Kudos to the Anon that pointed out what Belsky is and who he is.
He did in fact sequester himself for a week B'Shas Maisah, not to honestly determine the halachik status of milk vis-a-vis punctured abumesum, but rather to be MATTIR ASSURIM (read $$$$).
He also showed himself, not as an Halachik arbiter, but a self-centered egotist, for his PUBLIC degrading of Chaim Laib Katz during the BP eiruv affair.
The fact of the matter is he is not so much anti-chabad as much as a good hold fashion misnagid, who at best tolrates chasidim, but will smack them down if they dare to get in his way. Much the way his IDOL , Der Maran, made mincemeat of R' Moshele Hager when he got in his way.
Ironic his Rebbe (R' Rueven) took a Mechitin a Grosai Chabadnik.
BTW, R' Miller got his just desserts...his son is A Heisa Chossid and a Mekusher Tzu Chabad!
skop, trop , wasserman was how the kloizenburger rebbe zt"l made fun of the new litvishe derech halimud
skop, trop , wasserman was how the kloizenburger rebbe zt"l made fun of the new litvishe derech halimud
This story has been picked up!
Nobody hat tipped you Heshy.
COL,Shmais, Chadrei Chareidim.
I for one am not so thrilled.I lived through the bad times with the guys down Bedford Ave and in retrospect sometimes you have to make a mechoo and than get on with life instead of getting bogged down in a useless fight for years with fellow Jews.Also,Mishpacha which I quite enjoy features in the Hebrew edition a main Chabad journalist, and for the first time in the chareidi non Chabad Press, accepts and writes about Chabad as part and parcel of the heimishe oilom,the Modia never did this (till they had Mishpacha's competition)and the Yated opposed Chabad loudly.Now we''ll have some hot heads in Lubavitch banning Mishpacha and they''ll allow themselves to become bashers again.
We don't live in a totally Chabad world and I feel it more so since we moved to Monsey.
Bpunbound
Please do tell.
R'Millers son a chosid? Which chassidus.
Who is R'Reuvens (Grozovsky?) mechutan?
Relax everyone, I don't think he attacked all chabad. He said thing that are true, and they hurt, and yes I'm a lubavitcher!!!
לפני שאנחנו צועקים שמדובר ב"התקפה זולה" בוא נחשוב שניה לגופו של דבר-
כאשר יהודי נכנס ל770 ורואה קבוצה שלימה של בחורים שלא ריח תורה ולא ריח יראת שמים בהם - וכל יהדותם מתבטאת בזה שהם "מאמינים" ברבי, כאשר יהודי נכנס לשכונה כמו קראון הייטס ורואה איך הפריצות חוגגת בכל פה איך המחלוקת אוכלת כל חלקה טובה איך השו"ע מלא אבק שוכב על ארון הספרים ואין משתמש בו- אבל אבוי לו למי שיעז להזכיר שמו של אחד מגדולי ישראל באותה נשימה יחד עם כ"ק אדמו"ר מפני שעי"ז "פוגע" במעלתו של נשיא היחיד של הדור, כאשר יהודי יושב בהתועדות "חסידית" ושומע במשך חמש שעות איך צריך לגרום לרבי נח"ר אבל שמו של הקב"ה אינו מוזכר פעם אחת וא"כ הרי"ז צלווה בגיחוך של "הרבי יעזור שהקב"ה יהיה בריא" וכו - כאשר מנתקים את כל ההיסטוריה והמסורת היהודית מדרך חינוכנו ואין אף אחד ואין אף ספר ואין אף דרך חוץ מחב"ד, מזה התחילה היהדות ומזה נגמר היהדות ומי שאינו בתלם זה הרי הוא גוי גמור, אוי סליחה אין גם חב"ד יש רק דור השביעי ור הלל פאריטשער סליחה מי זה, אוי סליחה אין אפילו דור השביעי יש רק נ"א נ"ב - לאחר כל זה איך אפשר שלא להסתכל ולומר שאנשים אלו הם כת שאינם הולכים בתלם היהדות הרגילה וכל מציאותם הוא פולחן האישיות של הרבי.
בטח שאנו יודעים את דרכה האמיתית של חב"ד שאיננה מה שנזכרה לעיל וגם הרב הנ"ל יסכים כאשר יראה יהודי חסידי הלומד ומתפלל וגם קשור לרבי בכל נימי נפשו שזה זה עכ"פ אחד מהדרכים האמיתיות בעבודת השם- אבל הרי הרבה אינם כאלו והרבה הם כנ"ל והצורה הכללית היא הקיצוניות המטופשת שהשתלטה על מחנינו ומה לנו לטעון על מי שרואה את המציאות ואומר את האמת כפי שהוא.
ושוב איני יודע ומכיר את רב זה ואיני יודע כוונותיו אבל זה שהרבה במחנינו מתנהגים ככת שכל עניינם זה פולחן אישיות ואין להם קשר לדרך ישראל סבא - היא מציאות שאי אפשר להכחישה.
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I saw this on COL, what do you think?
Avrumy
http://www.shmais.com/news.cfm?ID=45826
couldn't agree more, except with the וגם הרב הנ"ל יסכים part.
R' Rueven's mechitin was Avram Elya Axelrod.
As far as Miller's son...the details are immaterial, those that know, know.
Bpunbound
You made it sound that R'Millers son is a heiseh chosid and suddenly you backtrack and turn it in to a 'soid Hashem liyereiov'?
I remain unconvinced.Sorry but I'm a bit of a sceptic after being burned by similar 'nisht gefloigen un nish geshtoigeneh' mayses
skeptic, not sceptic.
Chabad sites write about snag rabbis disrespectfully.Just like you have tried to dig up dirt on R'Yaakov Kaminetzky,R'Shach & you published one sided loshon hores about yeshiva Chaim Berlin R'Goldwasser..and much more
So why should you be so indignant when it's about your Rebbe?
You are a hypocrite.
Those who don't know may think you mean this with an emmes.
It's all about $$$$ and kovod. Mishpacha is the most succesful weekly both in Hebrew and English, though that is not saying much.
A) I never "made it sound" that way. I stated so, unequivocally
B) I am not at all backtracking. I've said as much as a care to
C) I didn't post to "convince" anyone, just to state a fact. If you are uninformed and content, by all means, remain so.
IMHO, RB is looking for a golden parachute exit from the OU. Read the rest of the article and what he says about religious zionism and MO. It puts what he said about Chabad in prespective.
Hirshel Tzig said...
skeptic, not sceptic.
Monday, May 05, 2008 2:11:00 PM
You both got it wrong. The word for what passes as civilized conversation on this blog is SEPTIC.
None of Rabbi Millers sons are close to Chabad, although a few are chassidish. RM has not changed his opinion about Chabad, generaly negative, including not to drink Italian wine becuase the Rov is a Mesachist. But he says the Lubavitcher Rabbonim he know from Toronto, are not Mesachist, and worthy of respect.
r'miller sons are boro park skver, a pretty weak chasidus to start with.
hershel curses out all litvishe ravs and cries foul when a posek says that chabad is afoul of normalcy.
mishpacha was the only one who was 'gores' chaba'd until now, pictures of the rebbe and features on shluchim, so it just shows that they are being fair and don't mean chabad as a whole.
Dont blame Belsky blame Butman
Miller called up and asked the Rav point blank if he was a Mishichist -to get a reaction from him, he said yes.
I would have said the same thing . . .
Mashel l'mah hadavar domeh.
A Lubavitcher was walking down the street, and Yid approached him and asked,
"Are you a Mishichist?"
To which the Lubavitcher responded,
"Boxers or Briefs?"
v"dal.
"anonymous" should be limited to 10 comments a day
Lubavitchers must believe that it's a mitzvah to lie to defend Lubavitch. You all know very well that all Lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach. The only difference in opinion between the meshichsten and the non-meshichsten is whether Lubavitch should proclaim it to the world or should keep it a secret.
If any Lubavitcher doesn't believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach, let him proclaim unequivically here right now "The Rebbe is not Moshiach". Hirshel and Berel, etc. let's hear it from each one of you, "The Rebbe is not moshiach!". Of course you can't proclaim it because the Rebbe himself hinted that he was moshiach as one can see from the video on the web, where the women gave him the proclamation that he was moshiach and he accepted it without a מחאה.
accepting a tamborine from a woman is "hinting" that he's Moshiach? wow.
SDR, who said that you can steal from my website to publish here? Moron.
HT,
You were challenged " Hirshel and Berel, etc. let's hear it from each one of you, "The Rebbe is not moshiach!"."
Did you respond.
On Moshiach: I wrote on this subject at lenght on this blog, but will not do it again now - I simply have no reason to try proving anything to people who will ignore what I SAY and will instead claim knowing what I THINK! I also find it preposterous that they think I owe them some kind of 'loyalty test.'
(Besides, Moshiach has nothing to do with Belsky's statement... he spoke about 'deification' [read: aveido zoro] and 'personality cult'{whatever that means])
C'mon hershel berel etc. ailemshr threw out a challenge; nu???
The silence is as deafening as madison square garden after the penguins win.
I will readily respond on behalf of every Lubavitcher:
Absolutely NO, the Rebbe most definitely is NOT Moshiach!!!
The proof you have is in the fact that at present we are still in golus, a horrible golus with antisemites and msinagdim al Hashem ve'al meshicho, and not one Messianic prophecy has been fulfilled, thus obviously there is at present no Moshiach.
As to what will be an hour from now, or tomorrow etc., G-d ALONE knows, and not those who threw the challenge, nor the Belskys or the "mibnei Homon lomdu Torah biBnei Brak"niks or all the other misfits who want to tell G-d who to appoint as Moshiach and who not. Case closed.
Penguins win what?
And if they believe the rebbe is moshiach? does that make them oivdei avoda zara?
I'm just very afraid that if the Rebbe is Moshiach then I'll have egg on my face....
How come no one cited Rabbi Weinreb (CEO of OU)'s response to Belsky, affirming only his kashrut capacity in OU and disavowing his views in all other mattesr as not rpresenting OU??
nobody condemned the OU as a whole; we never thought that RYB spoke B'shem the OU.
Hirshel,
She asked the Rebbe to reveal himself as moshiach and he didn't protest. What more proof does one need?
Could you imagine what the response of the Beis Yisroel of Ger would be if someone told him to reveal himself as moshiach? Definitely a smack across the face (OK not to a woman).
Ailimisher
try again, that "theory" is a bust.
regarding Rabbi Weinreb;
Assuming the response attributed to him is his real response, I agree with every word he wrote.
on Moshiach:
I wrote about this topic many times on this blog and I do not owe anyone any explanations. Besides, why TAKL to people who already know what I THINK?
I am not a Lub, and I think that the Lub Rebbe could be Moshiach or maybe not as any holy Rebbe could be
Who knows and who cares?
when the time arrives, everybody will know
Anonymous said...
"The fact that people in Lubavitch would go so far as to lie about Rav Shach trying out for a position in a CHabad Yeshiva--and then being torn to pieces, kaviyochol--by some kid demonstrates how utterly low the Rebbe has made you become. Feh on the liars who said it; Feh on your parents who raised you to hate like that; and Feh on the Rebbe how encourages your sinas chinam."
The fact that snags would go so far as to lie by denying that Rav shach did not try out for a position in a Chabad yeshiva and then being torn to pieces by some kid demonstrates how utterly low rav Shach made you become.Feh on the liars who deny it,feh on your parents who raised you to hate like that and feh on rav Shach who encouraged your sinas chinom.It works both ways my friend.
Avrumy (1:08pm)
I do it L'shem Mitzvah, credit or no credit.
אחת הטענות הקבועות של אנשי חב"ד היא על שמפריעים להם לפתוח שיעורי "תניא" בישיבות. לא מזמן התפרסם ראיון בעיתון כפר חב"ד עם אחד בשם סלבטיצקי שמספר על ההפרעות שהיו לו בשיעור תניא בישיבת קול תורה, וחב"ד עושים מזה שם צימעס שלם האיך המתנגדים רודפים אותם וכו'. כמו"כ השבוע התפרסם ראיון בכפר חב"ד עם א' בשם שילת (בנו של שילת תלמיד הר' נאדל ונעשה בנו חב"דצקער) ומספר האיך לא הניחוהו ללמד תניא בישיבת מרכז הרב. אפילו מכתבו הפומבי הראשון של הרב אליעזר שך נגד חב"ד עוסק בענין זה. ואני שואל, עד היכן חוצפת אנשי חב"ד מגעת?! תארו לכם - לו היה ליטאי מגיע לישיבת חב"ד ומנסה לפתוח שם שיעור ב"נפש החיים", האם לא היה משולח מייד בבעיטה אדירה באחוריו?! ונניח ואני מגיע לישיבת חב"ד ומנסה לעניין את הבחורים בשיעור ב"מורה הנבוכים" שאפתח שם, האם הייתי יוצא חי?! מדוע אם כן סבורים אלו, שדווקא להם זכות קנויה לפתוח שיעורים בשיטתם בישיבות שנוסדו על השקפת עולם אחרת?!
_________________
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A)You probably will not post this
B)If however you do,what is your answer?
kuknik,
I can't believe that you would be kicked out of a Lubavitcher Yeshiva if you offered a private shiur outside the sedorim of the yeshiva. Has anyone ever tried and was kicked out? (I am not saying you would find many customers, but that's another story)
and kuknik,
why would you even think that your well-reasoned, well-written and polite comment would not be posted by Tzig? Have you seen what kind of really antagonistic comments he lets through here?
Ironic that your buddy Harry has his knickers in a bunch about this article too, but from the Modern Orthodox angle. There's something in here for everyone.
You claim that 'you don't know if Belsky would say{what he thinks about Lubab}to Rubashins face'
This is an example of what a shallow fellow you are:
A)What in heaven has this got to do with the subject?
B)How would you know what he would say to Rubashkin,do you even know him? There is no logic whatsoever in what you are saying, after all Rubashkin needs the OU supervision quite badly in light of KAJ's leaving them, so why would Belsky be 'scared' of them.
C)Last but not least 'bivchinas' 'veid vhu hoikor' You are culpable of the same offense!!!Bashing Belsky and numerous others behind the facade of annonymity!!!
So that makes you a two faced hypocrite on top of a shallow infantile.
The Rebbe must be turning in his grave to see idiots like you 'defending' him
Thanks for posting the full article. It is indeed interesting that RYB is pretty sharp and direct with the "easy targets" (Muslims, Reform/Conservative Mizrachi, ChaBaD). When it comes to Torah Temimah and his own Negius in that situation, however, he obfuscates and hedges like a corrupt politician with his hands caught in the till. You would never know that he was the one who signed Hazmonos summonsing accusing parents to B"D in an attempted S.L.A.P.P. Truly pathetic!
Kuknik
Kol Torah and most Lithuanian Yeshivos were official 100% pure Nigleh houses with no philosophical bend to it, vs. Chabad and official Navardoker that have a official dogma that they follow, so the difference is simple,
Btw, the Chabad Yeshivos were the first Chasidic Yeshiva that it opened itself to the Brisker derech.
Cholov Akum has less support in official Chazal the Moshiach from the dead, you don't need a heter from some rov for that.
samartac
Can any one disagree or discuss the Veyoel Moshe in Satmar Yeshiva Queens? eventough he writes against the Avnie Nezer that was not even in his ballpark, do you know that Reb Moshe Arye from Huniod held Reb Yoilish as the Moshiach (Der Tzieting) ? Or was anyone capable to disagree with Rav Shach in Bnie Berak when his regime was in its heyday? ask the Grienenmam family or the Fiensteins from the Brisker family, it didn't start in Chabad, it just isn't stopping since the Rebbes power is still gripping his Chasidim and they are not ready to sacrifice for practical reasons to sell out as the 2 brother clowns in Willi
I wonder if Mishpacha Mag could come after your sorry Chabasker ass for Copyright_infringement.
Who gave you the right to reproduce their images??
Alz nor vare'n kovod foon enker moshiach/getschkeh??
my $3.99 gave me the right, that's who, punk. Besides they're too cheap to bother, and if they're not all I can say is "Bring it On!"
What would Belsky say on the idol worshiping of Rabbi Shach? his picture on his seforim and in the hospital cribs of BB? and People like Rabbi Mordechai Gross writing articles how Rashbi is similar with the Avi Ezri in 20 ways? or people eating Shearis Hashgacha eventough every Monday morning Benai Berak wakes up to a new scandal on that hashgacha (thats part of Rav Shach Nevouo Viete Kuck as his is Yeted n that he had Mesiras Nefesh for, and milked millions of the hungarian ferd Moshe Riechman to fund that Shturmer gazzette)
SDR
From your name throwing of the Chabad Gedolim I can see where you are coming from, these Rabonim were the most Parve Chasidim of Chabad, the new talmidie chachomim of Chabad as Rav Ashkenazi and Rav Farkash are not paling at all from the halacha works of Rav Telushkin and Rav AC Noe, Askenazis work would be a chidush even in the time of the Tzemach Tzedek and the Roshei Yeshivos of today as Shochet LA Shapiro Miami, Kalmanson CT,Friedman CH etc.. are as deep as any Rosh in the universe, Be honest and look in to a torah of Kalmanson on Bava Metzia or his other seforim against Reb Berel Povarsky its as deep but richer with more knowledge then the yeshivishe box.With the Ragachover nobody can compete he is in the league of the Gra
I was for 1 of the Shabossim by the Ohel and you could see close to 500 bochurim sitting shabos morning with the all sincerity studying chasidus as they did in Lubavitch Shbelubavich,
Hirshel, as interesting as all this is, I must agree with the poster asking about copyrights since this appears very similar to people putting copies of the movie Ushpizin all over the web.
Paying $3.99 for a personal copy does not legally give a person permission to replicate or reproduce publications on the web (or anywhere) for a mass audience and doing so is against the law. If they or their publisher choose, they can come after you and you would have no legal defense.
You may want to save yourself some trouble and point people to a different site with the interview instead of posting it yourself.
so, you think a holy magazine like them would sue me?? a goornisht?
c'mon!
Their publishers would have no qualms about going after you. Companies spend hours combing through youtube and the like searching for copywritten material.
Also, although I'm no rov, why wouldn't the issues of stealing associated with putting copies of "Ushpizin" all over the web be in effect in this case as well?
Legalities
Does Drudge have a right to publicize news from other media outlets ?
Arthur,
Did you ever happen to read the Brisker Rav's haskama to Rav Shach's sefer? Just flowery overstatements I suppose. He was a gadol baTorah in Europe already. It could very well be that a top bochur asked good kashes on the shiur of a Rosh Yeshiva and the rosh yeshiva didn't have good terutzim off the top of his head. I have seen that myself more than once. And I'm sure it happens in Chabad yeshivos also. So what? To imply that this was the source of Rav Shach's anti-Chabad feelings, as if he was an adolescent with a grudge, that is just insane motzi shem rah, and you better do t'shuvah for it.
U do the same and worse all the time so shut up
OK, BUBBELE
%1,000,000 true
Skver b.p.
Arthur Albert or Michael is the bubbele
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