Sunday, September 21, 2008

Avoiding the 'bush" at all costs


You've heard of beating around the bush, this idea takes it one step further. Let me preface this thread by heading some of you off at the pass. I know you well enough by now to anticipate the responses that will be forthcoming, so I'll stop you before you start. This is not an attempt to ridicule anybody's lifestyle or choice of how to raise their families. It WILL focus on some of the attempts to avoid confronting the REAL problem head on and to focus rather on some of the outcomes that these lifestyle present. In other words, don't look at the cause of the problems, just deal with minimizing the effect, it's much easier that way....

Some of you may have read recently in the charedi press about the attempt - and apparent success - of chassidishe kehillos to implement "Chasunah Takanos." Apparently this started with the Rebbe of Satmar-KJ and spread to other Kehillos who felt that they now had the green light to follow suit - or didn't want to feel left out. The press is VERY excited about it; they see it as the great savior of all the money issues that plague all the segments of the frum community. No longer will Kolel families with 8-12 children have to struggle to pay everyday bills. No longer will little Yeruchem/Yoeli/Shlomie have to wait for a bicycle. No longer will little Shifra/Rifkie/Chanie have to wait for a new shabbos dress. No longer will Mrs. Greenberg, struggling with all kinds of pressures have to wait for whatever she's lacking. No sireee, Bob. The takanos are here to alleviate all that stress and heart plaque, and to gladden the hearts of all those little boys and girls...

In case you fail to see it here's my point. Most people I know fail to make ends met way before they get to marrying off their kids. They have real trouble paying their kids' tuition, camp and buying clothes for school and Yom Tov. They have a very difficult time paying for car repairs and utilities, dentist visits and Daled minim, a leak in the bathroom and an occasional suit for the man of the house. And that's people with two well-paying jobs and smaller families. Young couples who began working in their 20's and are college educated can have tens of thousands of dollars of unpaid debt by the time their kids are old enough to go to yeshivah gedolah and seminary. OK, so now you'll tell me that chassidishe girls don't go to seminary, and that their bachurim don't go to expensive yeshivos. Right. None of the "takanos" put forth by I'm sure very well-meaning Rabbonim and askonim deal with how to get to the point where you marry off your children!

Some of the takanos are quite amusing, really. It would be interesting to know who decided on the allowable amounts of money that can be spent on chosson/kallah presents and weddings and what formulas were used. I also find it interesting that they didn't go very far with the takanos at all, and if they REALLY wanted to help people out instead of patting themselves on the back they really could've taken this much further. Here are some examples: Why is $1200 dollars OK to spend on a shtraimel, and why is there no limit on what a girl's mother can spend on her sheitlach? on her outfits? on her wedding gown? which chassidishe man has this money sitting around in some bank account? Why did Satmar-KJ decide that it was OK to do away with diamond ring completely and allow only CZ, while the shtraimel stays? Why did the other chassidishe kehillos decide that CZ was not good enough but a treated diamond would suffice? I especially liked how they write that they took care of the issue by having a "seminar" with almost all 12th grade girls in Brooklyn, educating them and explaining to them how the diamond ring they hoped for their whole life, the ring that has been tradition for several millenia, must be sacrificed for the husband's fur hat. For them a fake rock will have to do....

92 comments:

Anonymous said...

May be it isn't THE answer but itcould be part of the answer

As an aside the diamond ring is a recent invention by De Beers. However sholom bayis between the Shtreimel and the ring is the issue

TES said...

you have a point but it is a beginning

Hirshel Tzig said...

what beginning??

This is supposed to be THE solution!

schneur said...

I am not a Chasid , and have little shaychus socially, economically or genetically with the so called heimishe community,(Baruch Hasem) But I did live in BP in the 1980's and had friends there like myself, children of survivors, who had gone to yeshivas and were now working in white collar jobs and on the periphery of the organized Charedi world, we were not charedim rather all college educated as well.
We all wondered how well many chassiidm lived without ever working. Of course many chassidim worked but a stroll down 13th Ave af a Vochentog will reveal hundreds of men in their 20's and 30's basically hanging or shopping, This besides hundreds of guys in kolleim , Yet everybody had a nice car, most of their homes I visited were very well appointed with nice furniture and kelim naim. Everybody left to the so called countries. people were constantly flying back and forth to Europe and Israel.
I know there are poor chassidim , but many have a life style that I can never afford. I have never had a car , never been to the countries, been to Israel once, never been to Europe.And I have worked my whole life.
My friends and I still are looking for the secret, how is it that we nedd to work and there is a whole culture out there who have not worked a day in their lives and men lebt zich oys ganz fayn.
I lived for many year in a building with married secular grad students, few had more than some second hand furniture and a 3rd hand car.
The real problem in the frum world is high living. Of course there are poor people , but there is no sense of progressive standard of living. teh 20 year old chasan kallah want it all now !

Anonymous said...

i think there are two issues here that you are raising
1. that the takanos are really just locking the door after the horse has bolted, and
2.girls/women are being made to feel as though they are responsible for the economic mess the community has got itself into.
If the latter point is correct, then this opens the way for further examination of power and control in those kehilos

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

No,
It is a partial solution. And it is easier to control what is in our hands totaly (what we spend) then what is not in our hands (how much we make etc).

bewildered said...

hershele,

1)do you ever see anything good in something done by other kehilos then chabad?

2)have you ever seen something done by chabad that wasent solidely good?

as a constant reader of your blog, there is a certain image of you & your worldview that strikes me as extremly biased.

am i wrong?

Anonymous said...

Are you really a Magyar?

Friendly Anonymous said...

"Heimishe" people have a wanton disregard for tznius when it comes to extravagant displays of personal wealth, something that I don't even see by my fellow gentile neighbors, and which makes my personally very uncomfortable.

In my opinion, these takonos are not aimed (solely) at alleviating poverty, but are aimed at the shameless consumerism displayed by many frum people, and would be a good idea even if we were all rich. (as I understand it, this is why "hishlich chamosoi al eitzim vo'avonim", because that is what the Jews were actually worshiping).

berl, crown heights said...

Tzig, there is no solution.

We have all bought into the myth that you can go against all the financial realities of the modern economy (one income, no high education, no birth control, private schooling for al children) and yet be able to (and indeed entitled to) enjoy what amounts the lifestyle of middle to upper-middle class americans (a lifestyle which, incidentally doesn't exactly match our ideals anyways).

We have sold this myth to our children who are, in increasing numbers, beginning to smell the rat. We see this myth perpetuated by many (not all) of our spiritual leaders who themselves live in incredible opulence.

The mesirus nefesh test we are facing is that of being mistapek bemuot amidst affluence that surrounds us. It doesn't sound pleasant, but this, I am afraid is the truth.

So since most of us failed this test, איז דאס א גזירה שאין רוב הציבור יכולים לעמוד בה . And if so, may it be His will that this year all yidden are blessed with abundant wealth - למעלה מדרך הטבע . Because we have no "Plan B".

כתיבה וחתימה טובה לשנה טובה ומתוקה

Fotheringay-Phipps said...

1. Why are people constantly criticizing things that improve life just because they fail to solve all of life's problems? (Whoever pretended that this is "The Solution" besides one guy trying to mock it?)

2. As far as I can tell, most of these chassidim do work. Instead of looking at guys standing in the street, look at the guys working in the stores, shlepping things and whatnot.

3. I think the difference between a shtreimel & a diamond is that the former is a religious issue, while the latter is purely materialistic.

4. The world would be a better place if the Litvisher communities could pull this off too. Unfortunately they're not centralized enough.

burech said...

I have a feeling the Tzig does not like shtreimels.
FYI the price of shtreimels has come down quite a bit and shreimels last for many years!So instead of buying a Borsalino hat for 200 bucks and than kvetching it out of shape so it look 'Lubavitch', you make a long term investment that may come out cheaper.

Btw, I hate when people who know nothing about real chasidim, use anti semitic profiles to describe them.Never work, extravagant.Blah, blah.
I work very hard and so do all my friends.Maybe theTzig and Berl don't.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Burech

look again, I never said Chasidim don't work. Besides, an investment is only good if it's within range. To say that i'm paying 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 times what a hat costs now so that I save later makes no sense. That wasn't the main point either.

Anonymous said...

Shtreimels are naarishkeit. Abolish them. Abolish the two Satmar Rebbes. Lets stick with actual tzadikim as Rebbes.

Anonymous said...

"So instead of buying a Borsalino hat for 200 bucks and than kvetching it out of shape so it look 'Lubavitch'"


"The Rebbe felt it was important to show respect to the countries that would take us in...he..felt there was no need to separate us further from our host countries, especially since the shtreimel isn't real Yiddishkeit, any more than a fedora. Both are just ways of covering our heads, and the rebbe even instructed us to wear them with the brim down, like Americans. And you know who hates us for it? Not Americans, but other Hasidic groups, who think not wearing a shtroimel is sacrilege."
-Manis Friedmann (quoted in Shanda by Neal Karlen)

shimon s said...

"the ring that has been tradition for several millenia"

:-) right. but they also remember from all their picture books that anshei tanach and chazal were wearing shtreimlach and bekishes.

Anonymous said...

bewilderd asked:

"hershele,

1)do you ever see anything good in something done by other kehilos then chabad?"

As long as the other kehilos are nebach non believers, how can they be good? (Let alone the the people that are misnagdim R"L)

"2)have you ever seen something done by chabad that wasent solidely good?"

Yes, we have not given out enough Latkes at the mall last chanuka. (which is why mashiach hasnt come yet)

"as a constant reader of your blog, there is a certain image of you & your worldview that strikes me as extremly biased.am i wrong?"

Yes you are wrong! Thats because you ae a snag and are very closed minded. And full of sinas chinam. Something we lubavitcher dont have. We love all jews that think loike us

Anonymous said...

You chabnicks would all be wearing strimelach if the rebbetzin wouldn't have sided with gurary. she refused to give the rebbe the strimel and suddenly a crushed hat becomes a mosayrah.

Anonymous said...

anon
How many shtrimels were in chabad when the FR was wearing one? today there are more shtriemels in Chabad then by the FR, stop making your self into a idiot.

bpunbound said...

anon 10:50:

"would all be wearing.."

shmendrik, only the Nesie Chabad wore Shtreimlech.

Personally, I vote for a takonoh to abolsih HATS and only allow the Kasket...much cheaper and classy, to boot!

bewildered said...

anon mon 8:11,

you think i should expect tzig to answer me?

tzig,
you moderate comments, so i know you will read this. can you answer my questions pleae?

Hirshel Tzig said...

bewildered

I thought those were rhetorical questions. Here are the answers (in caps):

1)do you ever see anything good in something done by other kehilos then chabad? ABSOLUTELY.

2)have you ever seen something done by chabad that wasent solidely good? DITTO.

as a constant reader of your blog, there is a certain image of you & your worldview that strikes me as extremly biased.

am i wrong? WE'RE ALL BIASED TOWARDS WHAT WE BELIEVE. I'M SURE YOU'RE BIASED AS TO THE SUPERIORITY OF JUDAISM OVER OTHER RELIGIONS, RIGHT? THIS HERE IS NO DIFFERENT.

Fred said...

am i wrong? WE'RE ALL BIASED TOWARDS WHAT WE BELIEVE. I'M SURE YOU'RE BIASED AS TO THE SUPERIORITY OF JUDAISM OVER OTHER RELIGIONS, RIGHT? THIS HERE IS NO DIFFERENT.

Du bist taka wrong. emesdike sheker.
Elu v'Elu is proper outlook for fellow Yiddin.

Social commentary is fine though.

Yom tov in der vochen said...

Bpunbound,
Where have you been for so long??
I've missed your personality here, honestly.No, I never agreed with you.But you have a way with words.It makes it interesting.You are partisan in the way that only a 'gevorener' can be ala 'af sha'al' never ever give in even one inch.You also have a little of Chaim Berlin Tragedys' unique style, maybe because you shared the same 'benkel'
Whatever
Keep on commenting

chaim said...

''WE'RE ALL BIASED TOWARDS WHAT WE BELIEVE. I'M SURE YOU'RE BIASED AS TO THE SUPERIORITY OF JUDAISM OVER OTHER RELIGIONS, RIGHT? THIS HERE IS NO DIFFERENT.''

Wow.
This is loaded!
Chabad superiority in your view, would be similar to the view of a Jew regarding Judaisms superiority vis a vis Christianity?

I think we have good post material here.Be forewarned that you''ll have to moderate the language, cuz even your fellow Lubabs will not like the analogy.But go ahead let us get this elephant out of the room! My opinion is that one can be a frum Jew without thinking that his group is 'superior'.There can be many reasons why a person is a member of a certain chassidus, without thinking that the chassidus or the rebbe is the most 'superior'.
I can speak for myself now:I said selichos in a small yeshiva and felt much more derhoiben than when I was in a much bigger yeshiva

Hirshel Tzig said...

Chaim is excited.

chaim said...

You don't need to be a bigger a----le than you already are.
P--z.
Do you want me to start getting cynical about you? Believe me there is loads
And that's all you have to say, eh?

(EDITED FOR PROFANITY

Hirshel Tzig said...

Chaim doesn't like when his PROFOUND comments aren't given the proper respect...

chaim said...

I guess there is good reason for you being the little schmuck loser in chaider who everyone hated eh?
It sounds like it.I guess it must be the reason you made the exit to the superior place.
You remind me of the little snitch in chaider who was always going to the rebbe to masser us till we beat the crap out of him and he learned his lesson

Hirshel Tzig said...

Chaim likes to imagine things about people he doesn't know...

CHAIM said...

Continue posting.
Than you are going to have a hissy fit about how everyone hates you. You've done it before.
You started it up and it was uncalled for

Hirshel Tzig said...

next time, CHAIM, if you have something personal to tell me send it via e-mail, don't send it as a comment.

Started Up? are we in second grade here?

You nitpicked at my comment so you had it coming.

CHAIM said...

I''ll send comments the way I feel like.
I did not 'nitpick' your comment.
I thought there maybe room for an intellectual discussion and I guess your idea of intellectual discussion is incessant silly stories about the Chabasker over Vodka.
How he still runs the world.(ehr iz doch deym 'self appointed' Nosi Hadeyr)
How to be 'mosef in hiskashrus'.Like what does this absurdity mean?Being 'miskasher to a deceased individual??And I thought that 'uboi sisdobku' goes on the Aybeshter?(I guess another part of the 'intellectual discussions you have is how the Rebbe actually is 'atsmus umahus'

Discuss with a Chabadsker-What an oxymoron!!


oh, btw the way I thought you had a 'job' a 'boss'.You must be a 'very hard worker'.Hope your boss doesn't fire you.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I was promoted. I'm now the boss.

You seem to have compatibility issues, you lack in the give of the give and take relationship that makes the world go round. Work on it.

chaim said...

Excuse me?
I commented on a comment you posted.
I did it without malice , which your dumb comment surely deserved!
Let's talk a bit about your analogy to Chabad being the crown of Yiddishkait just like Judaism is the superior religion.
Do you realize how DUMB and sickening such a comment comes across?Do you realize that most non Chabadskers do not feel that they are 'superior' than other Jews?
What you said was sick!
Now if what you said had any basis in truth....Ok, so let's look at this superior 'version' of Yiddishkait.In best case scenario it churns out a bunch of clones all repeating the Chabskers mantras, mindlessly.Worst case scenario is when they mess up big time telling the whole world how alive the Chabdsker is, how soon as in 'now mamosh' he''ll make the grand 'second coming' reentry!
How, they have turned Orthodox Jews into the worst sounding money grubbers by backing the Rubashkins (members of the 'superior' religion in good standing)while the said Rubashkins make every mistake in the public relations department, setting us up to explain that that is the way 'Chabadskers' do things, not our way....
Etc, etc, etc.
Oh, forgot about the one that the Chabadsker is actually God!
(Oh it's only a couple of nuts.As if.May explain why his picture is so revered and iconic almost like a cross)


Yeah, lets see if you post this, coward

Hirshel Tzig said...

I never said "Chabad was the crown to Yiddishkeit." All I said was that any and every person feels that his way is the best otherwise he would need to go to where he feels it's better, no?

Is that SOOOO hard to comprehend?

Believe me, your ramblings only make YOU look bad. I have no reason not to post them.

chaim said...

My 'ramblings' look bad?
Oh, my!
Let's check the logic of this 'brilliant' statement, shall we?
Who do I look bad in front of....
Nobody, cuz I'm basically anonymous.
You on the other hand have a blog and real people know you.But that is not the point, just trying to point out your brilliance.

The real problem is that my 'ramblings' are unfortunately true.Your 'superior' religion is obsessed with your leader as the Messiah, dead or alive.That is a sad fact.Many members of your clan are obsessed with siliness that their rebbe is actuall alive and...hiding.Nu?
Some members have said the Rebbe is God.Nu?
Rubashkin backed by Lubavitch has caused the greatest chilul Hashem ever in the United States.Nu?
Just some tidbits.
Oh, how about any actual 'learning'?Sorry, unless you count Simon and Yossis new age crap as such.How about any real seforim on Halocha, any real talmidei chachomim,eh?Oh the Kalmanson brothers.So you found two, so that makes us stuck with only 3 998 ignoramuses 'masquerading' as 'rabbonim'!

(disclaimer:There are probably a few more talmidei chachomim besides the Kalmanson bros out of the number 4000 so called 'shluchem' that Lubavitch use, but not many, as can be viewed by the recent 'kinnus YARCHEI KALLO HO'OLOMY'(lol)in Gan Yisroel, where they could not get more than one(!)token non Lubavitcher rabbi! for this 'worldwide torah kinnus')

Hirshel Tzig said...

like I said: RAMBLINGS. Off-topic ramblings to boot.

Pinchus Lipschutz of the Yated is Rubashkin's biggest backer, not Lubavitch.

chaim said...

I don't care if Lipshutz backs Rubashkin.Only to you does it make a difference if the backer is part of your persuasion or not.
The fact of the matter is that Rubashkingate has portrayed frum Jews as conniving, heartless ganovim.
You have no problem with that

Hirshel Tzig said...

The fact of the matter is that Rubashkingate has portrayed frum Jews as conniving, heartless ganovim.

only to hacks like you. and to your buddies in the media, like the Forward, JTA and the Jewish Week. Nice bedfellows you made there.

chaim said...

I don't want this discussion to tilt towards Rubashkin, so don't post it.Don't want to make an issue of yiddens personal problems.Just showing that yet again Lubavitch instead of quietly working it out chose the 'smart' way of fighting with the Goverment and because of that all frum Jews come out stinking!

chaim said...

Told you I don't want to go there.
But, it sounds like you wouldn't mind working your ass off for a pittance, be treated like shit, risk your life and than get your pay docked because you are 'renting' a bed in a Rubashkin provided 'roach motel'
IF you were a goy, you'd love your Chbsker boss, right.
Sorry, btw, medical insurance is not provided either.
Enjoy your Rubashkin steak tonight.
It's less kosher than Finkels

yoshe kalb said...

To all the shtreimel experts:
Shtreimels were de rigeur among Chabad Chassidim until the gezeiroh of the czar ym. shm. who forbade traditional Jewish dress.In the Alter Rebbe's shul there was a takoneh, that everyone who was given an aliyoh had to put on a shtreimel. After the czar's edict only Rabbonim were allowed to wear shtreimels and silken bekeshes. That's the origin of the (ghastly in my humble opinion)surtuk that was fashioned similiar to the frock coats of that time.
Anyway, now before Rosh Hashonoh let's be more concerned about the levushim of our souls and not the bodily garments.
Kesivoh vechassimoh toivoh to all Yiden

Hirshel Tzig said...

thanks Chaim for revealing your true colors.

chaim said...

''only to hacks like you. and to your buddies in the media, like the Forward, JTA and the Jewish Week. Nice bedfellows you made there.''

Nice smart comment again.
Blame the media!
There is no problem there 'the media'
just made it up!
Typical of your 'brilliance'
It's a theme throughout your blog:Lubavitch is never to blame, it's always the 'media, the snag' who portray them badly.
Yeah, so how would you portray a religion where a large percentage of it's adherents believe that the deceased leader did not die?Just tell me how to do it?
Oh btw, the rest of Lubavitch is kinda not sure, you know, like the Rebbe Nosi Doyreinu without a shlit'a or a zatsal.
Hey, while we are at it, all members of your 'superior' group believe the Chabasker is the Nosi of the Dor.Can you tell me how that works?
You need to be pretty 'superior' to spin such a yarn....

chaim said...

'Deafening silence'
All I asked is how do you have a deceased Nosi Hador?
A tough question I guess.
Get back to me when you an answer, will you?
Or come up with some 'snag' story to distract folks who want some truthful answers

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'm too stunned by your Rubashkin comments. It reminds me of another time.

Berlin, 1938, to be exact.

I'm sure old Mo Finkel must be smiling now knowing that he's been vindicated by Chaim here.

chaim said...

I see that you are trying to obfuscate .My question was how do you have a deceased Nosi, something all Lubavitchers believe in, not just the flag waving idiots.

What's so shocking about my Rubashkin comment?
I told you I don't want to go there in public but you chose to post it.
Whatever the case, if you treat people like shit, they will hate you!
Get it?
That's why I believe this is the biggest chilul Hashem ever in America. Contrast that with the Aaron Feurstein who manufactured Polartec and kept every worker on payroll after the company had a fire for months.
That's a kidush Hashem

with rachmanus said...

just stumbled on your blog
Chaim sounds totally crazy or dillusional - maybe a schotzophrenic - so dont be too harsh on him

Chaim said...

Ha Ha!
Rachmanus,
Are you getting mixed up?
Am I the one who said that a dead man is the leader of OUR generation?
Am I the one who said that the Rebbe is alive, despite his passing 14 years ago?
Am I the one awaiting a 'second coming' of The Rebbe?
That's what Chabadskers say.
I guess I'm delusional for trying to discuss this with these misfits, eh?.
Tzig (or is it 'Rachmanus'?)You still owe me an answer?
How is a deceased man 'Leader of a generation' that he is no longer part of?
Just answer.
Pretty sure this does not get posted just like my earlier comment....

Anonymous said...

tzig Please dont make me put your sight on m y filter and edit language........far de kinder.

Hirshel Tzig said...

ok, I'll be more careful, iy"H.

Anonymous said...

Wow, you guys are really going at each others throat!

I am a proud litvak, but I must admit Chaim does sound like he's missing a couple of em' big bolts.
And Hershel sounds like.. well ye, the usual chabad cult stuff. We all know the sad story, you dont need me to explain that.

As far as Hershels point that got the whole fight going in which he said:
"am i wrong? WE'RE ALL BIASED TOWARDS WHAT WE BELIEVE. I'M SURE YOU'RE BIASED AS TO THE SUPERIORITY OF JUDAISM OVER OTHER RELIGIONS, RIGHT? THIS HERE IS NO DIFFERENT."

It hurts me as a proud misnagid to admit that I agree with hershel on this. And it is for this exact reason that the rest of us can all feel superior over the Chabadskers. Any Jew that believes that learning torah is the most important thing in judaism, can look down and spit (you have my permission) at any single lubavitcher or the movement as a whole. Shlita took torah learning and put it at the bottom of the list. As an educated college student he had very little respect for torah study. Every other yiddeshe mishugas was more important than learning. Which by the way is the root cause of
how Chabad and the Rebbe ended up in the rest of klal yisroel toilet.

So the next time you see the robots on the streets ,and at the mall giving out paraphernalia (often about the second coming), think to yourselves how special you are, YES how SUPERIOR you are, and say to yourself 'Ashreinu mah tov chelkeinu uma yafa yerushashinu'!

Hirshel Tzig said...

My friends

it's comments like the last one here that remind me why I don't join the Yeshivishe brand of Judaism, or whatever it is that he practices. I'm sure this piece of human debris will stand for 45 minutes shmone esreis on RH and YK but thoughts like the above comment are what fills his mind.

Of course Torah study is on the top of HIS list....

what a waste of a human being.

Anonymous said...

I must say Tzig your reponse to the above comments was very profound and intellectual. As specialy the part about human debris, that takes alot thought and imagination on your part.

As far as what thoughts go thru a persons mind during shmona esrei. I dont think you are a mind reader, and neither am I. but I can guarantee you that hes not davening to a dead person buried in queens!

Hirshel Tzig said...

Very little thought and imagination. It would be a shame to waste it on that.

Arthur said...

I've seen mad haters in my time but this guy Chaim takes the cake.So much hatred during Elul.Is this how he makes hachonos to Sliches every day?
I guess somebody in Lubavitch must have wronged him sometime during his pitiful lifetime.He is the model of one who speaks beloshen nikiyoh.Of course there's no mention in his wisdom filled posts of all that's going on out there in the frum velt outside of Lubavitch such as child molestation, the kashrus scandal in monsey,the ripping of millions of dollars by so called frum businessmen on and on.Only Rubashkin is a chillul hashem because he happens to be Lubavitcher.
Regarding his question about hiskashrus to the Rebbe ZT"L or for that matter any tzadik, apparently he is not familiar with the dictum "Tzadikim bemisosom Kruyim Chaim" etc.

Simple Shliach said...

Chaim, What is your issue? Why do you make such blanket statements. I am a regular Shliach from the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I learn Gemarah for 35 minutes to an Hour every morning. I have a Shiur in Alter Rebbe’s Shulchan Aruch for about a half hour daily and every year I go through Kitzur Shulchan Aruch at least twice to have the chomer at my fingertips. This is besides the Shiurim of Chassidus that I strive to maintain.

I don’t think I am more “special” then you. If you came to my city and needed a place to stay or a meal I would happily accommodate you. You are a Yid and we were raised to have Ahavas Yisroel to all Yidden, religious or not.

What bothers you so much about Lubavitcher Chassidim? Do you feel good making others feel like trash. I certainly don’t I respect all Yidden even those who have Shittos that don’t always click with mine. A few years back I had the zechus of hosting a Satmar business man who was travaling in our city for Shabbos. We had two non-religious families and after the meal we had a disagreement about exposing my children to Jews like that and he felt it would only confuse them. But you know what? It was a friendly difference of opinion and we speak on the phone every few months and He will be back here for a week Chanukah time and is staying by us again. LIVE AND LET LIVE!

Love your fellow Yid if only because we have enough outsiders that want to put us in the ovens.

C’mon its almost Yom Hadin lets go back to the basics.

Arthur said...

Tzig
Thanks for the edit but I'm referring to the Zohar quoted in Igros Kodesh perek Chof zayin "tzadika dispator eshtakach bkolhu almin yosir mbahchayoihi" etc.

bpunbound said...

Why Yom Tov,

How touching! I never knew you cared! You've "missed my personality"?

Why, that's something no one has ever accused me of even having, much less missing?!

Now, I was going to direct some comments to Chaim, but anon 11:05 (why is so difficult to pick a name!!) is much more interesting.

my friend, the comment "any jew that believes that learning torah is the most important thing in judaism, can look down and spit etc. etc.", is a non sequitor.

I would imagine even the most fervent 'agitators' that haunt this blog would agree that it is totally antithetical to someone truly connected to "the Source of the Torah" to be "spitting", literally or figuratively, on any jew. if you are, your throwing your lot in with the clan from rodney and bedford. good luck to you.

furthermore, your comment that "(he) took torah learning and put it at the bottom of the list" flies in the face of documented fact. To even have to defend this point is ridiculous; hundreds and hundreds of citations to the contrary, to the EXTREME contrary.

but i will say that, sadly, the movement has slowly morphed. The average bochur, lets say 30 years ago, was as grounded as any "litvisher yeshiva bochur" in shas and poiskim. In fact, this canard that the "roshei Yeshivos" tried to foist of the "lubavitcher Bochirim vas batelin' der tzait", was pure CYA. Because, lets use 30years ago as a cutoff, when the average "amerikana Boychik", that Rosh Hayeshiva's precious Ben Torah (no sarcasm intended), was Kasherin' zich ois on a Friday afternoon shooting hoops or at "sfat Yam", the 'Chabadskers' were heading out on mivtzoim (btw, the only time of the week the Rebbe allowed the bochurim to go on mivtzoim). The fact that the world looked alot different then.., well the artscroll revolution has managed to rewrite and 'Vish Up' much of that history.

From a sociological standpoint, it is very interesting, were you to step on, say, a subway train, again lets take 30 years ago, and saw one bochur that looked the way he should, and another that looked like he just returned from Woodstock, the former was probably a Tomim and the latter a 'Ben toirah'.

Unfortunaelt, like in many large movements, some sociopathic "individuals" manage to hijack to some extent and pull the movement out of its orbit, into a new trajectory (that's a post unto itself).

But to make that "educated college student" comment tends to discredit you and indicates that YOU are the automaton, regurgitating the same old script from the same old script writers.

Be that as it may, this Tishrei, when your 'enjoying' the Yomim Noroim, when your chowing down on some well deserved steaks after a 'supurb' davening on Rosh Hashana, and taking a well earned nap in the sukka after a full day of learning and davening Vi Es darf Tzu Zain, there's gonna be a 'bunch of Mishigoim' trudging up 6 flights of stairs (V'Ani B'Soichom thank G-d) to make sure that another Yid, who has no idea there is such a thing as Rosh hashana or Sukkos, Up Geret Tekias Shofar and Daled Minim, will also get a chance to have a chelek in a mitzvah.

And that there are, R"L, such Jews, totally oblivious to Torah and Mitzvos, that live A MERE FEW DOORSTEP FROM YOU, yes in BP and Flatbush and Lakewood and Monsey, and you can sit and patsch your boich on how many blatt gemorah you imangined you delighted G-d with and what a magnificiant gift you gave him with your wonderful teffilos, well for such judaism I FEEL like (but refrain from)spitting.

To you and Chaim, a Shana Toiva U'Msukah!

Arthur said...

Tzig
On second thought your edit is more appropriate.Chaim probably has no idea what the quoted Zohar means.As far as anon.11:05 goes, nu, maila er tcheped zich mit de chassidim.What else is new.However his comments on the Rebbe will earn him an ememmser Litvishe gehennim mit alle pitchevkes.

יוסף דוב said...

איך האב געבעטן א פריינד מיינעם וואס איז מער באהאוונט פאר מיר אי אין איינגליש אי אין קאמפיוטעריי צו ווארפן א בליק און זען דעם צושטאנד פון אהבת ישראל אין דעם דאזיקן בלאג אין די געציילטע טעג פאר ר"ה. צום באדויערן קיין גליק האב איך ניט געזען. נאכמער- עס קוקט אויס אז מענטשן באמת מיינען אז דער אייבערשטער איז זייער צופרידן מיט זייערע "צורעכט מאכן" אלערליי קאמפפונקטן וועלכע שטייען אקעגן דעם יידישן פאלק און יידישקייט - ממש לוחמי מלחמות ד'
י' קינדערלעך האט רחמנות אויף זיך! הערט אויף מיט די נארישקייטן אן קער זיך אום צום לערנען און עבודת ד' איך קאן אייך צוזאגן אז קיין גוטע רעזולטאטן וועלן דערפון ניט אויסקומען פאר קיינעם.
צוויי באמערקונגען
צום ערשט - דער חשובער אנפירער פון דעם בלאג ר' הירשל זיכער האט זיך ניט פאסיק אויסגעדריקט. מען טאר ניט צוגלייכן כלל וכלל די יידישע השקפות מיט להבדיל נצרות אפילו נאר צו פארגלייכן א קליינעם פרט. וואס ער האט געדארפט שרייבן איז אז כאטש די אלע תורה השקפות,דרכים, און גדולים כולם אהובים כולם ברורים וכו' און בגדר אלו ואלו וכו', אבער אז עס קומט צו אויסקלייבן אן אייגענעם דרך און אן אייגנעם רבי דא קאן און מעג א ייד שפירן דאס אויסגעצייכנקייט פון זיין דרך און זיין גדול.
דאס מיינט ניט חלילה אז מען מעג דערנידריקן די אנדערע- נאר אויפהייבן זיין רבי און מקיים זיין די מצווה פון כבוד רבו.
צווייטנס: .
זיינדיק א ייד וואס גאנץ לעבן לאנג געלערנט און געהאדעוועט געווארן אין ליטווישע קרייזן, בין איך בפירוש מוחה אויף די זילזולדיקע אויסדרוקן וועגן דעם ליובאוויטשער רבין און זיין שטעלונג צום חשיבות פון למוד התורה. שומו שמים! צענדליקער מיט צענדליקער גדולי ישראל אין וועמענס ד' אמות האב האב געהאט דעם זכות בייזיייק צו זיין זיינען בהתפעלות געווען אי פון זיין גאונות אי פון זיין הרבצת התורה. איך וויל זיך ניט איבערחזרן נאר איכ'ל דערמאנען עטלעכע ווער זיינען אין עולם האמת - ר' משה' ר'שלמה זלמן, די הייליקע גערער רביס, הרב יאללעס, הגאון האדיר הרב הירשפרונג זצ"ל, מען קאן פארזעצן אן אן עק אבער נאר איינער וואס האט קיין שייכות ניט מיט עולם התורה קאנט עס לייקענען. דער אנאנימנער שרייבער וואס רופט זיך "א שטאלצער ליטוואק" פארשעמט אונדזערע גרויסע הייליקע ליטווישע גדולים און בפירוש שטעלט ניט פאר דעם עולם התורה.
נאכאמאל, בעט איך אייך הערט אויף מיט פטרן צייט און ספעציעל מיט נעגאטיווער רייד און אין זכות פון דעם זאלט איר אלע געבענטשט ווערן מיט א גוטן געבענטשטן זיסן יאר אין אלע הינזיכטן בתוך כלל ישראל.
יוסף דוב

chaim said...

Arthur, et all
I asked a few questions and got deafening silence.I pointed out some of the totally overboard issues in Lubavitch without touching some of 'just' crazy issues.
Ok, now to Arthurs' post:
"Of course there's no mention in his wisdom filled posts of all that's going on out there in the frum velt outside of Lubavitch such as child molestation"
Arthur, do you think that there is no molestation problem in Lubavitch??Molestation has nothing to do with what group you are part of, unfortunately it exists everywhere and Lubavitch is 'nisht andersh'
About frum businessmen 'ripping off millions':Again you seem to have your head deep in the ground.Is Lubavitch any different?Unfortunately this affects all segments of Chareidi society.You don't want me to name names of Lubavitchers who went to 'chad gadya' for their 'ma'asim toivem', do you?
"ONLY RUBASHKIN is a chillul Hashem":I know of no other case where frum people have been accused of such wholesale behavior by the non Jewish press.
------------
"Tzadikim bemisosom Kruyim Chaim"
Are you trying to answer how a deceased person can be Nosi Hador?
Do I actually have to spell out to you how ridiculous this is???
A dead person by definition cannot be "leader of a generation" this has nothing to do with 'tzadikim kruyin chaim"

Arthur said...

To Anon:
You wrote"Tzadikim bemisosom Kruyim Chaim"
Are you trying to answer how a deceased person can be Nosi Hador" I spececificlly did not say that:For some reason Tzig edited my post.Look for the quote from the Zohar above that I wrote.

Arthur said...

Tzig
Perhaps you ought to translate the post of Yosef Dov for all the naysayers and haters.His comments are very pertinent and to the point and apply to all of us.

Friendly Anonymous said...

Shkoyach to Reb Yosef Dov for his beautiful words.

Just one additional thought: the Alter Rebbe was strongly against establishing a separate "kat", as he viewed his teachings relevant for klal yisroel. So much so, that he repeatedly warned his chassidim against responding to misnagdic provocations, separating themselves from the klal, and was already on the way to Eretz Yisroel in a large part because of his pain at the pirud among klal yisroel in Russia.

How did things change to such a degree that it is davka the "chief defenders of Lubavitch" that wish to make us into a separate Kat, and to fight "ad tumom" to show how our kat is better. The pirud that the early misnagdim hoped for is now being brought to fruition by the great "friends of Lubavitch" on this blog.

Arthur said...

Chaim said
"Do you realize that most non Chabadskers do not feel that they are 'superior' than other Jews?" I beg your pardon.The term "Kiruv RECHOKIM" is not feeling "superior" than other Jews? The Rebbi abhorred the term "rechokim" because,as he would often say,"who are we to be don who is rochok and who is korov"

Jay said...

What's the difference what chabstsers think of themselves. Little Richard maintains that he is the real king of Rock N Roll ( It's really Jerry Lee Lewis)

bewildered said...

i came late to a party that -at least in part- i initiated.

tzig,

here is where i disagree with your response.

your claim to seeing good in other kehilos, and admitting some things might be wrong with chabad

so why wouldent you command -let alone not mock- something good, that while admittedly not the ultimate cure, it still going to be a tremendous help acheinu bnei yisroel?

and why is anyone who raises any question on any action of chabad or chabadsker a snag or some other vile description?

EXAMPLE: belsky's interview in mishpacha.
werent there any legitamacy in the concerns he raised?
and his not being makdim a long hakdumeh on all the good that chabad most certainly does. dont you do the same or even worse when it comes to exploiting faults in other yidden?

did you ever admit to any good to be seen in the yeshivisher oilem?

harav shach being against chabad, does that take away anything from his ameilos batorah or harbutzes hatorah?

why does seeing the good in other jews only apply to the chilonim, and not to torah observant jews that whether legitimate or not have a dislike to chabad?

the anology of chabad vs. other kehillos, to judaism vs. other religions.

without expounding on whether being the "am hanivchar", corresponds with having a particular derech in avdas hashem. the anology is a faulted one in itself.
we werent discussing whether toras chabad is true or not, we are talking about practices of a community that are completely irrelevant to its set of beliefs.

chasane takones could have been taken on by chabad, and the allegations against rubashkin could just as likely have happened at meal mart or a shechita owned by a bobover vizhnitzer or litvak.

whether the takones are commandable, or rubashkin is a disgrace and chilul hashem. shouldent be judged by their affiliation.

do i need to think that a heimisher child molester is more moral then mother therasa?

allocating presumed guilt or innocence according to affiliations, is a dishonest bias that sorry to say, is seen on this blog.

your debate with chaim

to veer the discussion away from the ideas debated, to "chap zich uhn" on the way it was delivered by the person saying it. whether on his choice of words, or on examples cited.
while you might have the last word or even the last laugh. it makes one wonder whether you really have a response to the arguments presented.

Anonymous said...

"you can sit and patsch your boich on how many blatt gemorah you imangined you delighted G-d with and what a magnificiant gift you gave him with your wonderful teffilos, well for such judaism I FEEL like (but refrain from)spitting."....
The words of a proud Chabad shiliach on the Circus tent blog Sept. 24th 2008.


Need I say more?

Who needs Rav Schach to prove that Chabad is no more part of Klal yisroel. All you need is a typical Chabad shliach to open his mouth as in the above quoted case.

Case closed. (thank you shliach)

Arthur said...

Anon:2:48 PM
"All you need is a typical Chabad shliach to open his mouth as in the above quoted case.
Case closed."
I don't think so.You very conviently left out the following quote that was spouted by some idiot in a previous post.Who knows? It may be you.
"Any Jew that believes that learning torah is the most important thing in judaism, can look down and
SPIT (you have my permission) at any single lubavitcher or the movement as a whole. Shlita took torah learning and put it at the bottom of the list. As an educated college student he had very little respect for torah study. Every other yiddeshe mishugas was more important than learning. Which by the way is the root cause of
how Chabad and the Rebbe ended up in the rest of klal yisroel toilet." This of course smacks of and is in the spirit of "Ahavas Yisroel".
Case closed (thank you anon).

chaim said...

It appears that the for once an actual start of an intellectual debate occurred!

Trying to actually understand if one Jewish group is supposed to feel they are 'superior' or not.

(I am talking 'membership' in a kehilla or chassidus.Learning Torah obviously raises ones level, but learning is open to whoever wants as the Ramba'm says that anybody who chooses to be like 'Shevet Levy' can do so)


Despite all the attacks on my valid questions (the validity being based on what the Rebbe oft used, "ben chomesh lemikro".The questions were the ones that any kid not corrupted would ask)

I also steered away from attacks on the Rebbe.

Anyway:I'd like some answers to the following:
*How can a deceased man be leader of the generation, when by defintion a leader must be alive??

Why are Lubavitchers so busy badmouthing others when their "backyard" is strewn with idiots claiming the Rebbe "never died" or

"will reappear as Moshiach" i.e a second coming (this is not said as a wish, more like a certainty)

Or in more extreme cases actually claiming the Rebbe is "creator of the universe" chas vesholom.

Why do these things not bother the Tzig and his friends???

So even if one could somehow conjecture that Chabad is "superior" (hinted by being the highest of the ten "spheres" chochmo bino vo'daas above the "lowly" chag'as of chesed gevura tiferes)In the face of widespread occurrences that I mentioned above, would be enough to put them on the bottom rung.Sorry.


To simple Shliach:
From your writing I feel that you are a better person.Actually maybe some(but surely not all) of the problems that Lubavitch face are because frustrated wannabee gevoreners are running blogs and posting comments AND NOT shluchem out in the field.

I would like to address what I had mentioned earlier about the dearth of any serious Torah learning in Chabad.You see, and don't take this personally, your learning of 'up to an hour' of gemora a day, some shulchon oruch harav, some chassidus and being "mesayem kitzur shulchon oruch at least twice a year" is what I meant in a dearth of scholarship.C'mon is this level going to get us any people who know"kol hatoroh kulo"?(I'm sure you are familiar with the Shulchon Oruch Haravs psak that every person has a chiyuv to learn "kol hatoro kulo")
This level of scholarship trickles down to the average Chabad bochur, and unfortunately it shows.Please don't give me answers about how many kuntresim Chabad yeshivas give out.Quoting a chabad poster on a Chabad sitenow, 'that everyone knows what a low level the kuntreisimthey are on'
Facts are facts and very few choshuveh seforim have come out of Lubavitch that have been embraced by the wider heimishe world.In fact one of the very few is Mei Tal by Kalmanson.

chaim said...

No answers?
No misquote from Yerushalmy about Shimshon being shoifet 40 years after his death?

Simple Shliach said...

Reb Chaim, You are right I certainly am not being Mekayem “Kol Hatorah Kuloh” I wish I had a bit more time but my schedule is extremely time consuming.

Everyday I wake up at 5:30 and Shachris is 6:15 I get and when I get home an hour latter I spend the next half hour helping my wife get the kids fed, dressed and ready for school. I then drive them 25 minutes to School and by the time I am back its about 9:15-9:45 depending on traffic. (The car is a good time to listen to some good Shiurim on CDs) .

Now I do two things if I have enough gelt in the bank when I log on , I then learn my Gemoroh Shiur if not then I scramble to make sure I am not in too much trouble.

From then day every day varies. Mondays I prepare for my Shiurim. I give 5 big ones a week and this is not including the people I learn with b’chavrusah I have triple of them a week. Some are 15 minutes some are an hour and a half.

Tuesdays are for Fundraising till 3 then I have one Shiur and four chavrusahs until 6:30.

Wednesdays I have the majority of my Shiurim and Chavrusahs the last one ending usually about 10:00 pm.

Thursdays I go to visit Jewish patients in two Hospitals and then usually fundraise for part of the afternoon. Then is more Chavrusahs till 7:00 PM.

Fridays are a wild mixture of all of the above.

Shabbos Yom Menuchah is a great gift. I try to learn with my children and to pack in as much learning as I can. Sometimes I fall asleep in the afternoon, hey no one is perfect.

Sundays vary. If I am lucky and no emergencies are going on then we try to take the kids out and spend time.

Reb Chaim, all this is in addition to funerals, helping people with their crisis that turn to us, homework with my children and trying to be a good father and decent husband.

I know I am not being mekayem Limud Kol Hatorah Kuloh and I hope I get my Olem Habah nonetheless.

When I was a bochor in Yeshiva I learnt a lot more.Obviously. I think most bochrim do. I cant speak for the entire Lubavitch. I can only speak for myself. This is me this is my day, I try to make it work and be the best Yid I can be.

chaim said...

Simple Shliach,
I was not criticizing you on a personal basis, you sound like a very good guy.
What I was pointing out was that Lubavitch has a terrible lack of scholarship.Your example is a good one:Though you try your best you have a major problem squeezing in any real study.Now, compound that by a couple of thousand in similar straights=A bunch of well meaning (most of the time)people who hardly know anything!
You get it?
Now, let's say Lubavitch admitted that their focus was on kiruv, not kolel study(which is almost the only way to really reach a dargeh in yedios hatorah, intensive study for years after marriage)AND were prepared to realize/admit that Judaisms foundation is Torah and since this is not Lubavitchs strong point, either set up your own kollelim(not just Rabbi Hellers crash course kolel...)or join up with others...
You see that's when a false sense of superiority can cause a terrible downfall

Arthur said...

Chaim
A couple of years ago Agudas Yisroel placed adds in the Jewish media announcing their upcoming yearly banquet ,highlighted unabashedly by the following caption."Join the ELITE of Torah Jewery in celebrating this momentous occasion".The elite of Torah Jewry?Says who? A group of self appointed so called elitists? The machle of elitism or sense of superiority about ones own faction is not a phenomenon affecting only Lubavitch.It effects the yeshiveshe velt with it's haughty ivory tower sense of smug superiority.It affects almost all chassideshe kriezen,the MO and so on.
As to the statement by anon.2:48 PM that "Who needs Rav Schach to prove that Chabad is no more part of Klal yisroel".Chabad is in good company.Rav Shach attacked many others such as the entire religious Zionist movement,Rav YB Soloveichick,Rav Adin Shtienzaltz,Rav Shlomo Goren and others to numerous to mention.So Lubavitch was not the only group or individual on his "hit list" and it's all out in the open written by his own hand in his Michtovim Umaimorim for all to see.

Anonymous said...

Chaim
Awhile back the Mishpacha had a interview with Karelitz the former Mayor of Benai Berak, he said that Rav Shach told him to leave Kolel and get into Askunas since its more important to be save the klal then his Yorah,
the Lubavicher Rebbe believes that every second another Jewish soul is falling prey to assimilation and its more important that every capable yungerman should do his outmost to save as much possible yiddishe kinderlach then knowing another kvetch in Kodoshim

and after all his elite are not less then any other roshei yeshivos

Hirshel Tzig said...

Chaim

your incoherent comments usually get ignored because you ASSume things about me based on some warped idea that you have about Lubavitch.

bewildered:

You said "tzig, here is where i disagree with your response.

you claim to see good in other kehilos, and admit some things might be wrong with chabad,
so why wouldn't you commend -let alone not mock- something good, that while admittedly not the ultimate cure, it still going to be a tremendous help to acheinu bnei yisroel?


I don't air my dirty laundry in public. People like Chaim here don't need extra encouragement. Simple as that.

and why is anyone who raises any question on any action of chabad or chabadsker a snag or some other vile description?

People who raise questions are not Snags. People who use disgusting stereotypes about Chabad and will never see any good in what Chabad does, they're Snags.

EXAMPLE: Belsky's interview in Mishpacha.
weren't there any legitamacy in the concerns he raised?
and his not being makdim a long hakdumeh on all the good that chabad most certainly does. don't you do the same or even worse when it comes to exploiting faults in other yidden?


I think Miller was the one who made the Hakdomoh, not Belsky. He sounded like a silly Mesivta Bochur in the interview, not like a Ben Torah or a Rav. He was a Soneh Chabad many, many years ago. He has zero credibility when it comes to Chabad. And please don't use the "Vayte Kook" nonsense.

did you ever admit to any good to be seen in the yeshivisher oilem?

Absolutely, I have. I even sent my son to a very Yeshivishe day camp and praised the leadership there. I also spoke very highly of other very positive things they do. Just look it up.

harav shach being against chabad, does that take away anything from his ameilos batorah or harbutzes hatorah? No. But it does make one think as to what his motives were ...

why does seeing the good in other jews only apply to the chilonim, and not to torah observant jews that whether legitimate or not have a dislike to chabad?
Nobody says it does. And if you see that Lubavitchers have love only for Chilonim then call them out on it. Then again, there's the "chicken and the egg" debate when it comes to Misnagdim...

the anology of chabad vs. other kehillos, to judaism vs. other religions. without expounding on whether being the "am hanivchar", corresponds with having a particular derech in avdas hashem. the anology is a faulted one in itself.

I was making a point, using it as an analogy, not saying it was the same thing.

we weren't discussing whether toras chabad is true or not, we are talking about practices of a community that are completely irrelevant to its set of beliefs. I'm not sure I understand what you meant there.

chasane takones could have been taken on by chabad, and the allegations against rubashkin could just as likely have happened at meal mart or a shechita owned by a bobover vizhnitzer or litvak.
whether the takones are commendable, or rubashkin is a disgrace and chilul hashem. shouldn't be judged by their affiliation.
Very true. I never said they should be judged that way. Rubashkin is a very righteous man, that's why I defend him. There are also two very powerful groups, PETA and the Union, that are known to use thuggery and worse to advance their agendas.

do i need to think that a heimisher child molester is more moral then mother therasa?
allocating presumed guilt or innocence according to affiliations, is a dishonest bias that sorry to say, is seen on this blog.
who allocated based on affiliations?

your debate with chaim
to veer the discussion away from the ideas debated, to "chap zich uhn" on the way it was delivered by the person saying it. whether on his choice of words, or on examples cited.
while you might have the last word or even the last laugh. it makes one wonder whether you really have a response to the arguments presented.


Chaim went off on a tangent and did it in a horrible, crass way. Someone like that deserves no respect here.


Thanks for writing.

gevezener ponovizher said...

i think that Yosef dov's post should be transalted because there is so much hateful gibberish especially from chaim and anonimous that one wonders how can a frumer yid write such sina before rosh hashono. maybe they will do tshuva.
with all this stuff about thinking you have the best derech - speak to a brisker and he will tell you that anyone learning in ponovezh or mir is a nebach who cant learn. i think we should be grateful that R Moishe ztl never learnt in a yeshiva because then we wouldnt have a poisek hador but another kvetcher because since reb chaim the litvashe velt produced very few big rabonim - they came from the galitzianer chasidishe kreizen. the litvishe look down on asukei shnaitse alibe dehilchise. the fact is that there are many styles in learning and i know chasidishe ( including lubavicher ) rabonim who may not spend days and nights on a rambam in kodoshim ( iam not chv"sh diminishing the imprtance of that ) but they know halocho and hoiroo infinitely better then most litvishe koilel yungeleit.
so chaim and anonymous - you make everyone laugh - just stop your nonsense - forget about what lubavich believes in - i prefer anyday a freilecher chosid who believes his rebbe is moshiach ( i stll didnt hear any rrason why he cant believe it ) then a farbissener misnaged who spends days and nights critisizing.
leshono teyve tikosevu

chaim said...

The Tzig
As usual you managed to weasel out of facing the truth about large segments of Lubavitch .Still no answer about deceased Nosi Hador,Rebbe Shlit'a mania...

However, one thing you'd better not accuse me of!!
Asking for your respect!
I don't want your respect at all.Not one iota of your CHANUFA and brown nosing that Lubavitchers are so good at doing.They will hang with the worst of the worst if they can gain financially or get The Rebbe some kind of dubious 'honour'
I'm not a gevir married to a shiksa, not an ignorant 'peylishe' rov with a shtreimel to seat and show off with on your empty mizrach dais at your empty gebbebtah siyumim of Ramba'm(who must be turning in his grave at his forced 'conversion' to Lubavitcher and 'mekubal')
In short, if I gained the respect of a leidig geyyer like yourself 'bin ech auf gehakteh tzores'!

This does not mean that I do not respect decent hard working shluchem.I do, though we have some major differences.

*As usual, if this gets through the Pravda style censorship it will an aufeneh moyfes fun Rebbe'n

chaim said...

Gevezehner Ponovitcher,
My foot you are!
You said the following "i know chasidishe ( including lubavicher ) rabonim who may not spend days and nights on a rambam in kodoshim ( iam not chv"sh diminishing the imprtance of that ) but they know halocho and hoiroo infinitely better then most litvishe koilel yungeleit."
I don't dispute the fact that there are choshuveh chasidishe rabbonim (what you guys derisevely call CHAGA'S chasidim)I'd be curious about the Lubavitcher 'poskim' you talk about.Whom may they be???
There are almost no Lubavitcher rabbonim seen as any type of halachik authority outside of Lubavitch.
And that is a tragedy.

While you are at it, tell me about any Lubavitchers who are magidei shiur in non Lubavitch yeshivas?
Arthur will be happy that I mention Horav Rifkin from T.V.
That was long ago in a different era, and even than Lubavitch needed a Litvishe 'Ros Yesiva' Rav Gustman for their own place

Hirshel Tzig said...

CHANUFA is not a word in the Hebrew langauage. Chanifah is. Boor VeAm HoOretz Vos du bist!

You accuse me of censorship the whole time here yet all of your juvenile, asinine comments get through!

I don't think I EVER mentioned the Rebbe as "Nosi HaDor on this blog, so put a sock in it.

Arthur said...

Chaim
Get the name straight.Rivkin not Rifkin.

Arthur said...

Chaim
Enough of this garbage already.Gevald,it's almost Rosh Hashona.You made your point.Stop regurgitating the same chazerai.Hob rachmonis.

Anonymous said...

Chaim
There is no chasidisher rov that is as a Talmid Chochom as Reb Motel Ashkenazi of Kfar chabad and there are no Chasidishe Roshie Yeshivos as the Kalmanson brothers and Shochet of LA
be it Ger Belz satmar Machnufke...

I think you should ask forgiveness from Reb Pinchas Hirschprung ,Reb Aron Soloviechig of Chicago (that know Rambam as well as the Avi Ezri and AJ Soloveichig of Yerushaliem)Rav Pikarski etc.. who were steady participants by Siumie Rambam

Anonymous said...

Chaim
Rav Kafach that dedicaded his life for Rambam wrote the new perush on the Yad, translated the Perush Hamishnayaos, Igrois, Sefer Hamitzvos and Moreh Nevuchim was delighted when the Rebbe made the minhag of learning Rambam "Kakoten Kagodol" exactly as the Rambam wanted it, Look in his hakdomas on the yad.
What should we do that some lowlifes as the Benai Berak cabal didnt like it.

Mechel said...

For Chaim:

Litvishe Chilul Hashem of the day.

CHAIM said...

ירמיהו כג11: " "כי גם נביא גם כהן "חנפו", גם בביתי מצאתי רעתם נאם ה'" ... "לכן כה אמר ה' צבאות על הנבאים

Check before you attack.


Arthur, all I asked for was answers.That's all.hAVE ANY?
And sorry for misspelling Rivkin.

Arthur said...

Chaim
I did direct you to a quote from the Zohar a few posts back to answer one of your questions.
A kisiva vachasima tovah begashmius uberuchnius.

Arthur said...

Chaim
You said "Arthur, all I asked for was answers.That's all.hAVE ANY?"
The question is,are you really looking for answers or is it in thr spirit of the Rosho who says "Mah hoavodah hazos lochem"?Please don't say I'm calling you a Rosho. All I'm asking is are your questions rehtorical or do you really want an answer?

Anonymous said...

Chaim
Why when its Rubashkin it becomes chabad style chilul hashem?eventough it a private business, But a yeshiva making a chilul hashem it becomes a loshon of the NAVI כי גם נביא גם כהן "חנפו", גם בביתי מצאתי רעתם נאם ה'

Is David Shick the big Yeshiveshe Gevir also a loshon hanovi?

Zalman Dweck said...

This is where your Rebbe and other members of the leadership team failed their people. Instead of leveraging the immense authority, power and money to create a decent primary and secondary education opportunity without having to give up Judaism, the situation actually worsened with the years. Kids take pride in slacking on their "limmude Chol", miserable as they may be. Instead of unambiguously telling people to go and get a meaningful degree, they're rather told to "do as we say, not as we did". L’abdill, a Catholic or a Lutheran or a Muslim, no matter how religious, doesn't have to give up anything, and doesn't have to hide his or her getting secondary education of almost any depth or breadth - definitely not the "parnassadick" ones like law or accounting. But when it comes to Yiddalakkh, it's 1310 all over again. Here was a chance to break this dumb spell, and it was bitterly wasted.