Tuesday, September 2, 2008

Truth Squad In Action

This was not the intention of the anonymous blogger who sent me the question, he seems sincere, but his question was influenced by the kalte vasser that gets poured on anything and everything Lubavitch by certain elements. Everything is suspect when it comes to Lubavitch, and the only people that are trusted are outsiders with agendas like Friedman, Assaf and Erlich, Zechusom Yogen Aleihem. It's sort of like what Conservatives and Republicans in America have to go through on a daily basis. They're always at the mercy of the intellegentsia and the left-wing, and they always need their approval - which they never get. Every once in a while they get a bone thrown to them, sort of like here. but only after aan unaffiliated man agrees to the claim.


"Totally off topic, but could you post about the following, which I read at The new Seforim Blog:

"Since I have mentioned R. Jehiel Jacob Weinberg a few times, Rabbi Miller called my attention to the new book, Admorei Habad ve-Yahadut Germanyah, pp. 103ff., where R. Avraham Abba Weingort, who is completely trustworthy (and far removed from Habad), records the testimony of two other reliable people from Switzerland who knew Weinberg well. Although there is probably some exaggeration in the details of the story they tell, they report being told by Weinberg that he indeed gave semikhah to the Rebbe, and the circumstances of how this came about (including requiring that the Rebbe come to some of his shiurim at the Berlin Rabbinical Seminary). I can now better understand why the Rebbe's contact information given to the University of Berlin was the address of the Berlin Rabbinical Seminary. From now on, whenever I am asked if the Rebbe received semikhah from Weinberg, I will reply yes." Ad Kan from Seforim Blog.

The blogger is not happy with this proof and goes on to ask me: "So did the Rebbe have semicha or not?" I'm not בתוך הענינים now so I don't have the answer, maybe some of you would like to continue the conversation in the comments section.

Here's what our old friend Schneur had to say:
Except for curiosity of what matter is it if the Rebbe had semicha or not. He was a rebbe not a rav and a good number of famous 20th century gedolim never bothered with Semicha. Given the fact that the Rebbe promolgated the minhag of Bais Horav to obtain semicha and the fact that Mendel Horenstein also did such, its a sure thing the Rebbe had semicha. I hope we are not going to enter a dispute here if the Rebbe could learn Gemora and Shulchan Aruch.

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

I wonder if he really got semicha from the Rogachover.

schneur said...

Except for curiosity of what matter is it if the Rebbe had semicha or not. He was a rebbe not a rav and a good number of famous 20th century gedolim never bothered with Semicha
Given the fact that the Rebbe promolgated the minhag of Bais Horav to obtain semicha and the fact that Mendel Horenstein also did such, its a sure thing the Rebbe had semicha.
I hope we are not going to enter a dispute here if the Rebbe could learn Gemora and Shulchan Aruch.

Anonymous said...

>I hope we are not going to enter a dispute here if the Rebbe could learn Gemora and Shulchan Aruch.

It would be very embarrassing for the Rebbe, chas vishalom so close to Rosh Hashana should we engage in such a conversation, even if only to be mekayim the mitzva of exposing the truth.

Anonymous said...

I think we should leave alone the issue of the Rebbe's prowess in learning. It would only lead to chillul chabad. Let's end this subject now before something bad happens.

Hirshel Tzig said...

snags are a funny bunch.

shimon s said...

It is a good question. Did the Vilna Gaon had smicha? The Chofetz Chaim in the time he wrote all his seforim? How about the Chazon Ish?

Is it really teudas horaa on issur veheter that makes you a rov?

Anonymous said...

Hirschel, I am as much a "snag" as you are, and I made the comment on 4:26 PM. I reiterate that this thread should not become a chillul chabad, and that we should not discuss at length the rebbe's prowess in learning.

Shimon S. No one claimed the Gra or Chazon Ish recieved semicha. The problem here is that certain gedolim purported to have given the Rebbe semicha did not. We would never be asking this question if everyone was honest in the first place.

schneur said...

Anonymous. Are you serious ?
I am who I am , but to doubt the Rebbe's ability in Torah scholarship. Look at his Hadranim, sichos, Igros and his unrehearsed conversations with people like Rabbi Eliyahu, the Pnai Menachem etc.
Men like Rav Hirsprung, Rabbi Elberg, Rabbi Yolles, rabbi Poupko of Flatbush who were mighty Talmide Chachamim used every opportunity to come to the Rebbe zu reden in lernen.
Are we quibbling over the yeshivishe chakiros ?
There were hundreds of Chassidic rabbonim in and around Warsaw and I know that the custom of Anash from Western white Russia after 1918 was to go to Warsaw and get semicha there.

Arthur said...

Tzig
How come you didn't post the father to son letter taken from CH Info,that I sent you? Are you worried about copyright infringement? It may be a somewhat overly long but was intelligent and to the point.Whoever wrote it (some shliach)must be quite brave.He's taking a lot of flack from the Meshichistin about it.

Hirshel Tzig said...

too long and off topic. I couldn't read it so I don't wanna post it. sorry.

Arthur said...

Chaval

Arthur said...

Tzig
You post every piece of nonsensical,vile garbage that some haters write about the Rebbe.Here is a wonderfully intelligent letter written by a father to his son that really spells out the errors of the meshichistin and you refuse to post it because it's "of topic"?Your the boss of this blog and that's your right. As I said,chaval.If you get a chance read it for your own edification.

chnyock said...

kook new how to learn too...

Arthur said...

Tzig
The letter was posted, in it's entirety, in of all places "Das Torah."I really don't know if that's good or bad.

shloime said...

Marc Shapiro's nasty little biases are all over that paragraph. Somewhat sad, for a man who attempts to come off as unbiased. And Rav Weingort gave a very detailed interview to Kfar Chabad about a year ago, full of very specific research and details concerning the Rebbe's smicha from the Sridei Eish. It is mentioned in that interview, iirc, that the Rebbe requested the semicha only to gain access to the library in Berlin, as he already had semicha from the Rogatchover.

Shmerel said...

Arthur
The tzig is a g-e-v-o-r-n-e-r!!!
He wants to prove his credentials, therefore he will never post anything that can be misconstrued as criticizing Lubavitch or some parts of Lubavitch.He does not care that the Meshichists will take Lubavitch down if they are not stopped all he cares about is proving what a heiseh Lubavitcher he is.
I read the letter and it's a movement in the right direction.The tzig could not even be bothered to read it!
Feh, tziggy, that you put ypurself ahead of the good of Lubavitch, you should have stayed in Boro Park!

Mendel said...

>>Anonymous. Are you serious ?
I am who I am , but to doubt the Rebbe's ability in Torah scholarship. Look at his Hadranim, sichos, Igros and his unrehearsed conversations with people like Rabbi Eliyahu, the Pnai Menachem etc.

I really do not believe that we should get into this subject. Once again, this will only lead to chillul Chabad and shame on the Rebbe. I am very familiar with the rebbe's hadranim, and I do not think we should even discuss them. Have YOU learned them? Second, the stories about these Rabbonim are by and large unsubstantiated.

Arthur, as far as hatred is concerned, you referred to Rav Shach as "worse than Hitler." Hirschel let that on. And, as the Daat Torah blog shows, there are some probems with that letter. However, it comes a long way in building a bridge toward recovery, and I do hope we can be together, in this worl and in the next, with yidden outside of Chabad--whether chassidim or misnagdim.

Mendy said...

Here is quote from the letter:

Another egregious casualty of these irresponsible Chassidim is the indisputable fact, which the Rebbe himself stated more than once, that many people (it would not be an exaggeration to say hundreds of thousands) have been turned away from learning Chassidus and having any association with the Rebbe and Lubavitch because of the Moshiach controversy. There were those who tried to deny this years ago but today anyone who does not recognize this fact is simply living in a fantasy world. The accumulated damage to the Rebbe and Lubavitch from all of this is absolutely incalculable and they bear the full responsibility for this. It is appropriate to apply here what the Rebbe said about those who proclaimed that it is aschalte d’geulo “they are the ones delaying the geulah from happening.”

I agree with this very strongly. But does Tzig? Given the posts he wrote in the posts about snags, his explnation for the considerable hisnagdus against the Rebbe is because hate and other unspoken sinister, political motives.

I think Tzig is wrong on this issue, and should consider the import of this part of the letter.

srd said...

Last night I finally had the patience to read the letter. I was shocked at how much I agreed with him and he put my personal opinion in words I couldn't dream of. Tzig, print it and let everyone here throw their opinion at it. It has a huge dose of common sense that has been missing since 5752.

Hirshel Tzig said...

ok, I'll take another look at the letter.

Arthur said...

After I posted the above discussed letter on Das Torah,(after you refused to Tzig),all the nit pickers and nay Sayer's took the letter apart and I got it over the head to.Perhaps because of the dictum "Kol Hamisnvel ......."

יוסף דוב said...

איך בין געווען שאקירט צו לייענען דאס געשריבענע פון איינעם וואס רופט זיך מענדל ווו ער דריקט אויס א פארדאכט אויף דעם גאונות פון דעם ליובאוויטשער רבין זצ"ל. פון איין זייט ווילט זיך לאכן זעענדיק ווי א קינד מאכט אפ מיט דברי זלזול דאס לערנען פון א יידן וועלכער איז אנארקענט געווארן ביי די גדולים פון אונדזער דור אלץ גאן הגאונים. איך האב שעם אמאל געשריבן עדות וואס באווייזט וואס האבן גדולי ישראל - אי ליטווישע אי חסידישע אי ספרדישע - געהאלטן פון דעם רבינס לערענען און גאונות. דאס וואס דער בחור האט געשריבן איז א בזיון ניט נאר פארן ליובאוויטשער רבין נאר אויך פאר די אלע גדולי ישראל וועלכע האבן בארימט זיין גאונות. מען דארף זיין פארזיכטיק דרוקנדיק אזעלכענע שטותיםם

Anonymous said...

my grandmother used 2 say: a liar says the truth once in a while 2!

Milhouse said...

Tzig, I've been on a bit of a break from your blog (too busy with other things), but you really should read that letter. I won't say I agree with it 100%, but it's excellent. Warning, though: it deserves a careful reading, not just a skim.