Monday, September 8, 2008

FYI



I'll say this much, it takes guts to print such a letter.

22 comments:

Friendly Anonymous said...

I get the impression that the Yated's "letters to the editor" feature is their way of broaching subjects that are too touchy to deal with in a regular article, and that often the staff will make up letters themselves.

I wonder if the above is true, and if perhaps Reb Pinchos thinks that some hakoras hatov to chabad is due.

Anonymous said...

Tzigy, it seems lateley that youve become a bigger chassid of Mr. Lipshits than his fellow litvaks (like myself) are of him.
Go to BMG in Lakewood, see what they say about him. to put it mildly, lets just say the yeshivish crowd never respected him too much.

Chnyock said...

anything to sell the rag, pinny feels bad YOU don't buy it. he's also looking for a distributor in kab tzivo....

to you learn the streshilers toras?

todros said...

Chnyock, you sorry excuse for a human being. Why do I find myself suspecting that your mother used a mikveh of questionable status...
Do you EVER have something positive to say ?

flatbushguy said...

Hishel, what's with the new Pinny obsession?

snag said...

They have loosened up at the Yoseid, there is a limited glasnost policy in the letters section. They print some letters now that are not typical Yeshivishe fare, so this was also allowed in.

Don't read too much into it.

The letter seems fishy from another point of view though. She gives three examples, which seem to have been taken from weeks or maybe even months of newspapers, where she implies that the Yated censored mention of Lubavitch affiliation. The examples are somewhat lacking though.

1) Bris Avrohom is what the mossad calls itself. It's not like the Yoseid changed the name of the organization.

2) The Alter Rebbe is a loshon that is used even by Lubavitchers themselves. Anyone who knows these things knows that it is the Alter Rebbe of Lubavitch that is meant with that expression, not of Bobov, Vizhnitz, Modzitz, Ger, or Stolin.

3) Kosher food - does she want the Yoseid to write 'kosher food in Beijing provided by Lubavitch', instead of 'by R. Freundlich' ?

4) Shabbos accomodations and kosher food around the world - where did that come from ? What does that have to do with the Yoseid ?

I doubt that a 100% Litvishe woman would write such a letter. She must have some connection to Lubavitch or have come under their influence. Maybe some Lubavitcher put her up to writing it.

She mentions, the C word, as she refers to it, but not the L (Lubavitch) word. Why not ?

Bottom line is az zi dreit a kop, she is dreaming up a giant conspiracy in her mind. An overactive imagination at work.

chnyock said...

TODROS
כל הפוסל ב... פוסל

Hirshel Tzig said...

Flatbush

I wouldn't call it an obsession, but I've begun to realize that not everything is what our knee-jerk reaction tells us it is.

Maybe it was how he came out for Rubashkin, and maybe it was something else, but I've learned that Yated America is not Yated Bnei Beraq anymore.

Anonymous said...

why do u allow insults like todros's to apear?

DANIEL said...

THAT TZIG ALLOWS MORONS LIKE CHNYOCK ON THE BLOG AT ALL, MEANS THE BAR IS PRETTY LOW. AND TODROS MAY HAVE A POINT...

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Thaw in relations.

Perhaps it's something entirely else and it's being missed here, that there is a change has been undergoing in the relations between Charedim and Chasidim towards Chabad, and the publication of this letter is just the top of a pinhead that the YATED is hinting at that Chabad is being taken out of the cold because the world has not ended and the sky has not caved in and with everything that has transpired since the passing of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe, the movement is vibrant and growing and still a key part of the Chasidish and Charedi world.

"Anyone who has been following the news reports on VIN and YW has read of how BOTH of the present Satmar Rebbes, the brothers Reb Aron Teitelbaum of Monroe NY and Reb Zalman Leib Teitelbaum of Brooklyn NY have held PUBLIC receptions to honor Chabad representatives and Lubavitchers and publicly acknowldge these new ties.

Of course among both the self-styled "politically correct keepers of the 'seal of truth'" such as in the YATED and their petty minded types, the various classes of baalei machlokes, and people who are just too slow to understand that the PRESENT top leadership of both Chabad and Satmar are seeing eye to eye and are not going head to head as they once used to in the 1970s and 1980s which is a MAJOR realignment in the NY and American and ultimately Israeli Chasidic and Charedi world that needs understanding.

Now this would seem odd and it should not even be happening (what with Chabad BELIEVING that their Rebbe is "God in a guf" and some viewing them as avoda zaranikas), since according to the naysayers Chabad is beyond the pale so how could BOTH Satmar Rebbes (who are viciously opposed to each other mind you, agree on a what amounts to a common policy in realtion to Chabad) be courting the good will of Chabad and Chabad obliging BOTH Satmar Rebbes with tokens of peace?

The answer is complex, but is essentially based on the realities of the 21st century and the future, and NOT on the past with its provincial rivalries. Neither the 1st Satmar Rebbe zt"l nor the last Lubavitcher Rebbe zt"l left sons as heirs.

In Satmar it was the nephew Reb Moshe zt"l who took over -- now it's just his splintered family that runs it -- and in Chabad it has been the Shluchim APPOINTED by the Rebbe who took over as local potentates all over the wrorld.

Satmar and Chabad actually have no real reason to fight. They do not share "borders" except in Brooklyn, and they have different agendas, and now that they have powerful satelite communities outside of Brooklyn, there is no need for them to fight each other in Brooklyn and hence anywher else.

They are the biggest Chasidic movements in the Unted States and they have entirely different objectives: While Satmar is enetirely INTERNALLY focused, with the goal of making it's own communities stronger, on the other hand Chabad is EXTERNALLY focused, with the desire to mekarev all Jews (Satmar is opposed to kiruv to SECULAR Jews, much prefering to fight them instead, especially the "Tziyoinim") and leaves it to others to do kiruv to non-frum Jews.

On a feeper level, for those in the know, the position of Reb Yoelish Teitelbaum within Satmar is not much different to the status of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe within Chabad. Within Satmar, noone and nothing can be holier or greater or better than Reb Yoelish (he too is a as close to "god in aguf" as any human will ever achieve and they BELIEVE in him passionately) being quite the same with the way Chabad adores the last Lubavitcher Rebbe. To Satmars the grave of Reb Yoelish in Monroe NY is just as important as the grave of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe in Queens NY, vehameivin yavin! It's the same system and concept at work that the greatest of the movements Tzadikim attains a kind of "immortality" even after death because of his being the ultimate and greatest Tzadik. You really have to be Chasidish or really grasp how they think and function to appreciate the truth and power of this!

So it is no wonder that the current crop of Chabad and Satmar leaders have concluded they have nothing to fight over and that they actually do no conflict but rather complement each other. Thus when Satmars travel all over the world, they know that they have a friend to stop at when they come to a local Chabad rabbi anywhere. The Satmars can build their INTERNALLLY FOCUSED financial empire and the Lubavitchers can go on reaching out their EXTERNALLY FOCUSED shlichus to anyone they can. Both are on different missions. They can also help each politically because they have the same religious and sociological needs like the strict Charedim that they both are.

Here are the news reoprts that reveal the latest turn of events and sea change in the relationship between Satmar and Chabad. In all probability all the major Charedi groups will follow Satmar's example, and let Lubavitchers belive in the Rebbe ANY WAY THEY WANT because they are not leaving Yiddishkeit, given the enormous OUTSIDE challenges that face all Chasidic and Charedi groups and communities from their enemies.

ARON TEITELBAUM OF SATMAR MEETS WITH LUBAVITCHERS: VIN reported on 05-14-08 http://www.vosizneias.com/15935/2008/05/14/kiryas-joel-ny-chabad-and-satmar-strengthening-the-ties/ (The same report was published in YW http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?s=Satmar+Chabad May 14, 2008 with the headline "Lubavitch Shlichim Meet With Satmar Rebbe From Kiryas Yoel". Both reports have photos.)

"Kiryas Joel, NY - Chabad And Satmar Strengthening The Ties. Kiryas Joel, NY - Earlier this week chabad Shliachim to Princeton, NJ, Rabbi Dovid Dubov, Rabbi Chaim Schapiro of Morristown, NJ and Rabbi Dubov�s two sons Sholom Ber - age 11 and Motty - age 9 met with the Satmar Rebbe, Rabbi Aron Teitelbaum in his Kiryas Yoel home.

The purpose of the 40-minute long was to present Rabbi Teitelbaum with the entire 25-volume of Yalkut Moshiach Ugeula Al Hatorah.

Rabbi Dubov shared with the Satmar Rebbe the scope of the project how the Lubavitcher Rebbe Zt�l wanted everyone should learn about Moshiach Ugeula and the idea of collecting Mefarshim form hundreds of different commentary on the Torah in the subject of Moshiach Ugeula.

The Satmar Rebbe was very touched that commentary from his ancestors in the Satmar dynasty such as; Yismach Moshe, Atzei Chaim, Kedushas Yom Tov, and Yeetav Lev etc are included in the Yalkut Moshiach Ugeula Seforim. In general he was looking at the Seforim for over 10 minutes and expressed great admiration for the scope of the project and wished great Hatzlacha for the completion until the end of the Torah.

Rabbi Teitelbaum spoke very highly of the Shliach, Rabbi Yonosan Denebeim [VIN had a story on rabbi Denebeim] director of Chabad of Palm Springs, California where he goes on vacation and Davens at the Chabad Shul and uses the Mikvah.

He related a story where many years ago there were certain organizations who wanted to stop Lubavitch Yeshivos form getting support from certain programs and he personally called and spoke to the ones in charge that they should not stop, C�V to support Lubavitch and B�H they have not. A few years later, Rabbi Teitelbaum continued, the same people wanted to stop Satmer Yeshivos from getting support (due to Internal Machlokes etc) and at that time LUBAVITCH intervened and helped Satmar. He spoke with great Kovod how Satmar helped Lubavitch and Lubavitch helped Satmar.

Rabbi Teitelbaum spoke to Rabbi Dubov in great length about his shlichus work in Princeton and the approach of Lubavitch. He asked how many families come to shul on Shabbos, and Rabbi Dubov answered approximately 40 families. He asked if they are all shomer shabbos and Rabbi Dubov answered �many are and many are on the way of becoming shomer shabbos.� He smiled and liked the answer.

He spoke to Rabbi Chaim Schapiro regarding Morristown and Rabbi Zalman Leib Markowitz the principal of the boys Cheder. He then spoke to the Shluchim kids about their learning and their shlichus.

During the course of the visits there were Divrei Torah and Chassidishe stories about the Rebbe that Rabbi Dubov and Rabbi Schapiro shared with the Satmar Rebbe. On the way out his Gabboim thanked the Shluchim for coming and said that their Rebbe enjoyed the visit very much. (News Source: Shmais.com)"

SATMAR HELPS CHABAD: Reported in VIN 04-04-08 "Kiryas Joel, NY - Partners in Strengthening Torah and Mitzvos: Chabad And Satmar. Kiryas Joel, NY - Remember the days Chabad and Satmar were at each other�s throats?

Back in the 70s and 80s, it seemed that the two would never see eye to eye. The insular Satmars of Williamsburg and the extroverted Lubavitchers of Crown Heights clashed in more than mere ideology. Philosophical disagreements over how to view secular Jews, the secular State of Israel and indeed, the world at large, created bad blood, and worse between the two powerful Chasidic communities. [...] Odd couples? Perhaps. But it�s one of the fastest-growing secrets in the frum community�not to mention a hugely inspiring example of true Ahavas Yisroel and Achdus Yisroel: Today, Chabad and Satmar have come together."

ZALMAN LEIB OF SATMAR MEETS WITH LUBAVITCHERS: VIN of 08-28-08 reports http://www.vosizneias.com/19826/2008/08/28/sullivan-county-ny-satmar-lubavtich-strengthen-its-relationship-with-new-mikvah-donation/ (same report with more photos in COL �� ���� �''� � �'���''� http://col.org.il/show_news.rtx?artID=40768 "�� ��"� � ���� ������ �����"� ��� ��� "Sullivan County, NY - Satmar - Lubavitch Strengthens Its Relationship With New Mikvah Donation [...]

As reported in a VIN News http://www.vosizneias.com/15037/2008/04/04/kiryas-joel-ny-partners-in/ previous report, this past May, Lubavitch Shlichim from Morristown New Jersey and from Princeton New Jersey met with the other Satmar Rebbe Shlita - Rav Aharon Teitelbaum and cordially presented him with Lubavitch Seforim . The meeting was very effective in building new bridges between them. As well in April a fund raising was held in Kiryas Joel to help A chabad Rabbbi from Palm Springs, CA."

snag said...

CBT -

Your powers of analysis are impressive.

Okay, maybe there is a thaw, but don't give people the wrong impression, that things are very warm, like an constant lovefest. Hey, there is a thaw in the Arctic too, some ice has melted in the summer, but there is still plenty of it left.

Also, one should be michaleik between the Yated and Litvishe velt and Satmar and other Chassidim. Re Lubavitch - Litvish relations, the Yated does not run the Litvishe velt, though it may reflect it to a degree. As I wrote previously, there is just a policy of openness or glasnost in the Yated letters section of late, so they let that letter run. Don't make too much of it. They aren't going to start printing the Rebbe's sichos there anytime soon.

With regard to Chabad - Satmar and Chabad - Chagas relations bichlal, there might be some warming, some Chassidim like to do the opposite of what the snags do, but still there are limits. The rayos for the alleged thaw from VIN are not that strong. The fact is that VIN has changed. It used to be more of a Satmar thing (I think it came out of KJ), but now it has come under Lubavitcher ownership or sway, at least partially, and now they regularly run pro-Lubavitch propaganda, in a way they didn't in the past. They also censor and remove comments critical of Lubavitch in a way even Hirshel does not. Hirshel is much more open that way than VIN. So you have a Lubavitch influenced or controlled VIN running stories (often from Shmais or other Lubavitch PR outlets) implying a Chabad - Chagas rapproachment. Naturally, Lubavitch wants to show that it is accepted by other Chassidim, but there is still plenty of distance between Chabad and Chagas, don't fool yourself.

A couple of isolated incidents and episodes are just that.

schneur said...

Nu? so when is KFAR CHABad or Bais Mashiach going to recognize that there is a tremendous amount of Torah learning going on in hundreds of LItvishe yeshivas, that the Agudas israel does much good as a advocacy group for American orthodoxy etc etc. I think there will sooner be a new Lubavitcher rebbe before either of those 2 journals recognize things like the pioneer nature of Torah U-Messorah in starting day schools in the US...

Anonymous said...

CBT, you should have devided your posts in to different books.

Friendly Anonymous said...

Great question, Kurenitzer. I suppose the answer is, that kfar Chabad will print such stories on page 100 as soon as they start printing stories about Barak Obama on the front cover.

Menashe said...

schneur,

Let's be fair and say neither side gives the others (proper) credit. In many inyanim. Thankfully this is changing, slowly but surely.

We all daven to the same G-d. We all have the same chelek Eloka mimaal. We all learn and live the same toras emes. Yehi shalom al yisroel.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To Snag of Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:55:00 AM, thank you for your feedback and for the behind the scenes info about VIN.

But even if there is more Lubavicth influence at VIN nowadays, it is reporting facts that would have been unheard of not too long ago. Also please note I was writing NOT from the Lubavitch take on things, but rather looking at the YATED, with its close adherence to the Litvish Agudist party line and certainly the unusually warm receptions both Satmar Rebbes have given to various Lubavitch delegations, that it is those outside of Lubavitch who are extending feelers of friendship -- which is the big chidush-- while in Lubavicth it is no chidush that they will grasp at any opportunity to impress anyone outside of their world, and go the extra mile and then some, with their unique friendliness which is after-all their hallmark.

But something is happening and if the most important Agudist paper in America, meaning the YATED, and the two Rebbes of Satmar who do not agree with each other but who do agree to be mekabel Lubavitcher delegations and have the events recorded by photos that they know will go out into the Jewish media and the world and seen by all, it means that somehow, on some level, in some way and for reasons that are still perhaps not fully oisgebaken, there a genuine beginning of the thawing of relations taking place TOWARDS Lubavitch in some sectors (NOT all of course) and it is more than just glacial or cosmetic.

To anonymous of Wednesday, September 10, 2008 3:09:00 PM, who says: "CBT, you should have devided your posts in to different books."

I am not sure what you mean, could you explain, please. Thanks.

a gevezener ponovizher said...

the whole blog is worthwhile to read the chaim berlin tragedy. he is looking at things without any agenda of sina and politics ( umihein ato shomea lav veda"l )
kol hakovod!

Anonymous said...

Now this would seem odd and it should not even be happening (what with Chabad BELIEVING that their >>Rebbe is "God in a guf" and some viewing them as avoda zaranikas), since according to the naysayers Chabad is beyond the pale so how could BOTH Satmar Rebbes (who are viciously opposed to each other mind you, agree on a what amounts to a common policy in realtion to Chabad) be courting the good will of Chabad and Chabad obliging BOTH Satmar Rebbes with tokens of peace?

Both Satmar Rebbes are meaningless people. Aaron is something of a talmid chochom--sure--at least in Chassidish circles. But he's a rasha according to the Mechaber for resorting to Arkaaos Akum. He is not a manhig, his brother, even more obviously, is worthless. No one cares about their politicals overtures.

gevezener ponovizher said...

so who is a manhig? because the vast majority of jewish leaders did not wipe chabad off at all and continue to support chabad, attend their functions etc etc. the only ones who wiped chabad off are david berger who knows about christianity much more than about judaism and a few rca pulpit rabbis who in 1996 over bagel and lox without consulting any mekoires or any gedoilim made some wishi washi statemnt about moshiach from the dead.
i can list off a score of real taslmidei chachomim from the litvisher velt as well as chasidisher and sfardisher that continue to support chabd

Anonymous said...

Gevezenr: Go ahead, please. Give us a list.

gevezener pnovizher said...

i dont think that a list would make a difference to you but i ll put a few names anyway.
frpm those that maintain a warm relationship with chabd, attend their functions, laugh when they hear the farbissene hisnagdus etc:
r zalman nechemie goldberg, r gavriel tziner ( bal nitey gavriel) rav amar, rav sherman from bes din hagodol who is a talmif of rav eliashiv shlita and said many times that people distort rav eliashiv's hisnagdus. he said that he was present when someone told rav eliashiv to mevatel a geyres of a ger who believes the rebbe is moshiach and rav eliashiv said - it doeasnt contradict the ikrim of yidishkeyt.
i could go on and on with a list - rav mordecah eliahu, his son the son of rav ovadia - rav yosef. the strpkover rebbe who is a big yedid, the gerrer, belzer, kloizenberger rebbes who send representatives to all chabad functions, the list can go on. from the deceased rav hirshprung and rav aron soloveichik sent letters telling them to dessist from their hisnagdus because the belief in moshiach min hameisim is full with mekoires.on the other hand only a few amaratzim like david berger ( who used to bully rav aron like an unterveltnik - that what r aron said himself - and a few farbisene misnagdim who were the same years before moshiach was an issue ) make statements of avoida zora, apikurses etc.