So said Rabbi Noah Weinberg's son on his father, who passed away yesterday at the age of 78. Watch it here. It was actually nice to see and hear the old Mussar'dike niggun with which the grandson of Chassidishe Rebbes as he sang his hesped. I'm sure the young Rabbi loved his father dearly, as most of us do. And I'm sure that he meant to give his father the proper Koved HoAcharon, as a son should. But I think it's safe to say that it's times like these that we now see and understand why Chabad doesn't "do" hespedim. It gets to be a bit much, even in the land that created this monster, and I know you all agree with me. Since when does a man who makes Baalei Tshuvah become like Eliyahu HaNovi that we use those terms on him? The same goes for the comments on the Aish website, some of them are just plain terrible, words like ship losing its captain, (does he mean the USS Aish or Klal Yisroel as a whole?) to the world cannot go on. Please, people.
Rabbi Weinberg was a kid from Brooklyn who saw a total lack of concern among his fellow Lithuanian Jews to the plight of American Jewry and did something about it. Frankly I'm impressed that he saw that need. I don't think many others were concerned about their non-Religious brethren back then. It must be the Chassidishe blood in him, otherwise he'd be content with just shteiging away on his own and letting the chips fall where they may. What he built was a network of schools and centers as well as electronic media that brings Jews closer to their father in heaven. We've our differences with him and his organization and emissaries here on the blog, but that doesn't diminish what good he's done. I just wonder out loud what the future of Aish will bring. Will an organization that relied so heavily on the charisma of one man be able to survive in his presence? Or will Aish go the way of so many others biting its proverbial nose to spite its proverbial face? Only time will tell.
Yehi Zichro Baruch.
the JTA compares the two organizations.
83 comments:
Kiruv Or Eiruv are the factors why someone wants to reach out to non religious Jews it has nothing to do with chasidiim or litvish ,Novordik was doing kiruv and had nothing to do with chasidim But some people are befriending non religious Jews under the mantel of making them religious, but truthfully the want to lessen their devotion to yiddihkeit and relax the stringent restriction of their ancestors so they scream I am going over the bridge just to bring people back, but in the end the stay there and assimilate
Um. By the Rebbe their were no hespedim? So this is their Rebbe.
"Will an organization that relied so heavily on the charisma of one man be able to survive in his presence? "
Good question.
How is Lubavitch doing, btw?
Tzig
You've got to be joking if you've never heard "ovi,ovi recev yisroel" used in a hesped.It's classic fare, not unusual at all
-Michoel: By the Rebbe there were no Hespeidim.
Rabbi Weinberg's work towards the goal of Kiruv was often accompanied by ziyyuf haTorah, the falsification of Torah which our sages teach is yehareg veAl yaavor. The teachings in the discovery seminar on the so called "Torah Code" which was at most the idiosyncratic and unproven idea of one prominent scholar (R' Heme"d) given without context as a "proof." Similarly, the discovery seminar promotes a false view of the textual perfection of the Torah (we do not know plene and defective spellings) which contradicts the Talmud and other sources up to our own time. Another damning example of ziyyuf haTorah is the minimization of dissenting views practiced by Kiruv people in general. The aforementioned examples all involve glossing over the words of many scholars, how much worse is this when, in order to secure funding, Aish promotes itself as a Zionistic yeshiva, which still hews to Haredi ideals? Worse yet is the idea that Rabbi Weinberg is famous for, the different levels of pleasure, which takes the Torah haKedosha and puts it in the tumahdikke keilim of pop psychology. This is worse than any distortion of the Torah UMadda camp, who never dared to equate RamHal with professional satisfaction or the Koach of Hiddush in Maharal with creative solutions in ones job as a computer programmer. I cannot imagine the punishment meted out to someone who rode roughshod over our Torah in such a manner for such questionable goals and monetary gain. When Rabbanim of old criticized Hildesheimer, JTS and even RIETS as being a factory for Rabbanim, they never imagined Aish, which puts out barely literate amei Haaretz as Rabbis in various communities. Honestly, this is worse than TT or YCT, as anyone who has met their respective musmakhim can attest to. Putting such people in Jewish communities in any capacity was a flabbergasting attempt at empire building at the expense of Torah; but all such mushmakhim need to know is the Aish.com pablum of Artscroll halacha and the five levels of pleasure. Those who criticize the mushrooms like Shmuely and others who do so much to make Judaism look like the Trash culture of America should realize that Aish was the original dark moist pile of excrement where these fungi sprung from. We should hope that with the passing of their leader, this blot on kelal yisroel will break into various warring factions and hopefully leave us all alone.
Wow Tzig, very slick indeed. Trying to toe the line and not say anything too bad that will anger people too much. But you still went to far, way too far.
I understand that because this man was too much for Lubavitch and he turned people into b'nei torah instead of vilde menchen you can not stomach him. And it might be hard to fathom that he never tried to convinve anybody that he was g-d in the physical form (atzmus u'mehus... areingeshtelt in a guf) but people still held him in the highest esteem. But please wait until at least after the shivah to bash him!
Perhaps you do not hear many hespeidim because you are a Lubavitcher, but "avi avi rechev yisroel..." is a common cry by hepeidim of gedolim, and so is "avdah s'finah kabarnitah" (the ship has lost it's captain).
Of course he was famous for his kiruv, but that is not to say that he was not a talmid chacham of massive proportions.
Instead of bashing him and letting everybody know that Lubavitchers are hypocritical clowns, perhaps try to explain why the ba'alei teshuva you make know nothing aside from farbrengins, getting shiker and a few concepts in Tanya (in that order), and why you never bothered to learn from R' Noach ZT"L and his mehalech.
Wow, good job Tzig. A new low. I'm starting to believe you are truly being paid by some very anti-chabad group...
He gave a interview for Bakhila claiming that he invented the wheel of kiruv? was it so?
Zol Er Rihen In Lechtigen Gan Eiden and his holy Ziede the Yesod Hoavoda should be mekabel ponim,
Anon: 3:38 You, my friend, are a complete Moron . . . I know Lubavitcher Ba'alei Teshuva that can put you to shame in learning (though with your ignorance, it's no kuntz)
Anon
It could be that Lubavitcher are to much hooked on the Vyamini bashem Uvmoshe Avdoi, but they are maminim with full clarity, vs. these Noigroishoil style that try to convince you by sheer nonsense that anybody with half a brain will shrug him off,
Anon 3;32
Please decipher you Ziuf hatorah theory
The Lubab are all crawling out from the walls to bashaygetz Rabbi Wineberg.Lubab:You feel threatened, right?Don't worry Arthur is going to come and "defend" you
"but they are maminim with full clarity,"
Maaminim they are, the Lubab, the question in what.
Ok, just double checked both "official" unofficial Lubob news sites COL and Shturem carry no mention whatsoever of R'Weinbergs passing.
Not a problem, they "only" deal with Lubob news.As if.But these ....have the gall to complain when the rest of frum Orthodoxy does not see the importance of reporting "Lubob" news.
bTW, THE ONLY REASON Tzig is "reporting" this is because of a snide remark he got in an earlier post
A lot of silliness all around here but I'll address myself to the silliness in the original post:
Rabbi Weinberg was a man beloved by thousands of people who claim that he had a direct and large effect on their life. Beyond that, many of these talmidim have had what thousands of others consider to be a large and positive effect on their lives to therefore wonder as to dismiss him therefore as "a man who makes Baalei Tshuvah" is an insanely mean thing to say to the thousands who feel bereft. In addition to all of this, you don;t know a thing about Rabbi Weinberg though I could hardly blame you for that because many of his talmidim never quite understood him either. He was no cog in any wheel, he was a gavra. He was a man who stood up in klal yisroel and those of us who knew him have reason to realize that he can not be replaced by another.
mnuez
P.S. This may or may not be obvious but I share this as no programmed dummy of Aish Hatorah, the time-tag yoichiach.
I don't get something
You state that it seems strange and perhaps far fetched for this man to get accolades in terms of being equated to ELiyahu HaNavi, yet the Rebbe is the Moshiach and to some, perhaps elokim mamesh
Would you say that your comments are perhaps "the pot calling the kettle black"
PLEASE EXPLAIN?
Also,
If you don't like hespadim - DON'T deride them. This is just plain immature, along the same immature lines of those who derride Chabad for NOT making hespadim... (snide comments that show why Lubavitch don't make hespadim asre just juvenille)
"-Michoel: By the Rebbe there were no Hespeidim."
The was hardly any levaya kihilchusa at all
This is not the first time tzigy show his classic chabad jealousy
tzig from last year
"But the movie was bizarre. Clips of R' Weinberg talking about himself, or other people talking about him and the yeshiva, and how great they are, looking for all the world like an ad for Aish HaTorah - come to our yeshiva - alternating with clips of Holocaust scenes narrated by some guy with a South African accent (some British colony or another). Why the pictures of the Holocaust, except that it's a Tisha B'Av movie, and of course we have to bring up pictures of the Holocaust?
And of course, R' Weinberg implies that he invented kiruv - "bemakom she'ein ish, yishtadel lihyot ish" - implying that nobody else was doing kiruv when he started Aish. Riiight. Aish HaTorah started in 1974. He didn't even start the first kiruv yeshiva in Israel - that was the Diaspora Yeshiva, started in 1964 by my wife's cousin, R' Mordechai Goldstein shlit"a. And where did R' Goldstein learn about kiruv? Working alongside R' Shlomo Carlebach z"l in Chabad in the 1950s. (See "Returning to Tradition" by Dr. M. Herbert Danzger)
The whole thing was very self-serving, and not so interesting in terms of actual kiruv."
-----------
While Noah Weinberg was still eating Kit-Kats and playing baseball in Baltimore these young men spent their summers traveling the states and bringing Yiddishkeit to far-flung places. I hope you'll remember this the next time you see some feel-good article about Aish naming him some kind of pioneer. That's akin to calling Abe Lincoln one of the founding fathers, but gives NW way too much credit too. Why's he called Noah anyway? What's wrong with Noach?
---------------
Big Aish. Has a nice ring to it, like Big Tobacco and Big Oil. Evil comes to mind.
Not that I see a problem with their apporoach, and the Kvetcher IS a cross between a Snag and Reform, but it's nice to see the spotlight elsewhere.
I guess for the complainers like Harry M. although "Chabad destroys Communities", It's OK if Aish reaps years of Chabad toil by moving in to well-established cities and Universities, setting up centers, and informing one and all to come see "real Judaism".
so "Mnuez" is mechalel shabbos to defend RNW and I'm supposed to be happy about that?
Anon 7:44;
So when others attack Chabad it's also jealousy, right?
"so "Mnuez" is mechalel shabbos to defend RNW and I'm supposed to be happy about that?"
Hey, stop right there! How in the world do you know in what timezone is he living?!!!!
anon 7:44
right those aren't my comments, but rather from other people? right? so why make it sound as if I wrote them?!
Shimon S
I think the fact that he wrote that the "timetag yochiach" that he's not "a programmed dummy of Aish Hatorah." If he was in Australia or in that part of the world why would the time tag of his comment prove anything?!
Tzig,
You don"t have to apoligie for yourcritic on a person Shepoar Piv Al Hashem Veal Meshicho,I heard a tape the way he denigraded Reb Shmuel Levitin a chosid fun alten chieder in a vile manner.
ווי אזוי האט ער בכלל געקענט ר' שמואל'ן אז ער זאל אים אזוי בארעדן? וואס האט ער געזאגט אויפ'ן טעיפ
?
juicy loshon hora is only muttar in yiddish
אין אידיש איז אלץ מותר
Just to clarify,
Although there is a need to bring the light of yiddishkeit to our lost brethren through kiruv, there is a tremendous churban caused by bt factories that produce bts and dump them on us to deal with, with themselves shrugging off any future involvement or responsibillity. Opening the doors to all comers has created open doors to all leavers. This has created a Kids At Risk bonanza, as well as many in our midst who cannot fathom Jewish hashkafa such as Slifkin and his myriad of blogger admirers. This is why Rav Weinberg's own Rosh Yeshiva, Hagaon Rav Laizer Yudel zt"l, was opposed to opening a "fabrik far baalei teshuva".
hameagel said..
"The Lubab are all crawling out from the walls to bashaygetz Rabbi Wineberg.Lubab:You feel threatened, right?Don't worry Arthur is going to come and "defend" you".
The Tzig doesn't need anyone to "defend" him.Certainly not from a neanderthal like you.
Tzig
In his pep talk for the
BT shouldnt dare go to chabad,he claims that he used to be in 770 by farbrengens of Reb Shmuel Levitin
The logic that "I think it's safe to say that it's times like these that we now see and understand why Chabad doesn't "do" hespedim" is not one that I am sure I follow.
If it was a magnificent Hesped on the level of the legendary Hespedim given by the Rav, RYB Soloveitchik would that then imply that at times like that, it's not understandable why Chabad doesn't do hespedim?
You either do or you don't. The skill of a Maspid is to ensure that he isn't over exaggerating and yet able to bring forth the Ma'alos of the Niftar. Perhaps problems arise because of a lack of skill on part of the Maspid as opposed to the concept of a Hesped per se. After all, Avrohom Ovinu was Maspid, and if we follow the logic that Moshe was greater than Avrohom (and Sarah) then according to Chabad, their opinion regarding the identity of the "Moshe of our generation" should also have had a hesped (unless there was a Tzavoh)?
When Rabbi Groner was Niftar, it was said that Chabad is not Maspid, but the Hayom Yom from that day was so compelling that they were maspid him. He deserved every word of it too.
This reminds me of the issue of Chasanim and the delivery of a Dvar Torah at the Chasuneh. I have never understood why they either don't give a Drosha, or are interrupted once they start.
For one, the self same Chosson did speak on his Bar Mitzvah, and yet nobody was worried about one Bar Mitzvah looking "better" than another on account of their speaking ability or lack thereof. Furthermore, I have always been of the view that Nishtanu Hoitim, and given the Narishkeit that I often hear at Weddings from Chassanim who are not yet frum, I've often felt that it would be a Kiddush Hashem to actually spread the idea of Chassanim actively giving speeches which had some Tochen.
Isaac
Point well taken. I was just defending the Chabad opinion on the matter, not telling others to stop. Besides, I'm sure if the Rav were to be maspid even Chabad would acquiesce and allow for it to go on.
anon 1:34
can we a תוכן קצר of RNW's shmuess to the Aishsters about Chabad?!
"Why's he called Noah anyway?"
Why did the FR become Joseph Isaac and one of his daughters Sonia and one of his sons-in-law Samarius and his son Boris? Why is the Tosher Rebbe's name Ferencz and the Sadigurer's Marcus? And what whith all the Imres and Sandors and Vilmos and Ervins in Willy? Because some immigration or registration officers couldn't be bothered with names from di alte heim. So nothing's wrong with Noah.
Tzigale, your'e officially a SHMUCK!!!
When did this blog go from defense of lubavitch become a weapon to attack the whole world?
One of the great tragedies about Rav Noach Weinberg was the he supposedly got divorced from his long-time wife and married a woman much younger than he was and then claimed that he was "very happy" and to add insult to injury, the Aish people did an amazing job of supressing the fact that Rav Noach was actually divorced while he and they were preaching the virtues of good relationships and the wonders of Jewish marriage with great levels of pleasure.
Why was this kept secret and why were the Aish people determined not to let the true story come out? Like FDR and JFK why do people have to live with lies that they had "happy marriages" to their wives when hypocritically they sought their happiness elsewhere in the arms of other women?
It's time to see people for who they really are and not buy into false images created by PR hype that has nothing to do with reality, the real truth or with Torah Yiddishkeit.
If it's not about Lubavitch or their t.leckers then anything is allowed in this blog
Tzig you should be zoiche that people find out what a sleazeball you really are
Does he have a successor ?
While I am certain he contributed to the growth of Judaism, one can not compare his stature to that of te Lubavitcher rebbe. The Rebbe was a manhig of Klal Israel. Thats not to say he was THE manhig but he was the defining Jewish leader in the diaspora after World War 2.
That said I really believe that the goal of Organized Judiasm for the next 20 years needs to be inreach. I talk not only of so called At risk teens , but of thousands of people who are orthodox outwardly but whose practice is very lax to say the least.They are reverse Marranos.
Programs must be designed to meet their needs. These programs have to take in account that these people are knowledgeable abotu Judaism and Torah and you can't sell them bobkes.
There are many singles, single men and women, divorced people, teens and even straight shooters who are disanchanted with their Orthodox life style and the frum world in its different manifestations.
The man or men or woman who meets this need will be the manhig of the next generation.
Most non religious Jews today are so assimilated and intermarried and filled up with crazy ideas about sexuality, homosexuality, politics, Israel, Ecumenism, etc etc that its an aveyre di rehd to bother with them and spend our limited resources while at the same time thousnads of formerly frum men and women many highly educated are on the verge of becoming non observant.Most of these people are not druggies they are not freaks, and are well adjusted, but the frum social life etc does not speak to them. Is there a rav who would listen to these people without passing judgement ?
To Issac Balbin:
"This reminds me of the issue of Chasanim and the delivery of a Dvar Torah at the Chasuneh. I have never understood why they either don't give a Drosha, or are interrupted once they start."
See Sefer Divrei Torah from Minchas Elozor Mahadira Kama Ois Alef (in fact, the very first vort in the sefer)
Simcha, I don't have easy access to that Sefer. Would you be kind enough to inform us what the Minchas Elozor says about this issue?
To Chaim Berlin,
You are confusing R' Noach with a different Weinberg who was Rov of a large shul in Manhattan. (I think it's his son or nephew). Please check your facts b4 bashing. btw I didn't see anyone commenting about my correlation between the bt movement and KAR movement, so I guess everyone agrees with me.
To Chaim Berlin,
You are confusing R' Noach with a different Weinberg
---------
typical, just this time he was caught
If this is the case, if it's a different Weinberg, then we need to remove that comment. I await CBT's reply.
Anonymous says: "To Chaim Berlin,
You are confusing R' Noach with a different Weinberg"
Nope, check it out. The nephew was Rabbi Simcha Weinberg who was the rabbi at Lincoln Square Synagogue and he was married to Maurice Lamm's daughter (Maurice is the brother of YU's Rabbi Norman Lamm), but concerning that Rav Noach got divorced I heard from a few reliable sources that Rav Noach got divorced and married "his Monica [Lewinsky]" as someone put it to me. Not my words. I am not making this up. Again, check it out. The Aish people have put a very good conspiracy of silence around this, it did not happen recently either, I first heard it from someone who was working as a lecturer for one of their Discovery seminars and in the beginning I also couldn't believe it, but then I kept hearing it again a few times from a few different people, so I don't blame you, you are proof of it that good people have been duped and Rav Noach was not the goodly man that you thought he was but just as lustful as any other guy.
Check it out for yourself and report back to us, if you can. Thanks.
shneur, what you say is fascinating. I'm not sure if I understand all the points. Maybe you can write a longer post with more details and possible solutions.
Do you think rav Weinberger from Aish Kodesh (Woodmere) is close to such a rav?
CBT, maybe you mix him up with Berg, Madonna's "Rebbe"? You know Weinberg/Berg.
CBT, that was below the belt.
All kiruv professionals knowingly place themselves in a dangerous place, even though they say every morning "al tevi-einu lo lidei nisoyon". To me, the wonder is not that some surrender to temptation, but that more don't.
These are emotionally fragile women, who are coming from a culture of "darcho shel isho lachzor achar ish" and the Rabbi is taking the place of parents, mentors, etc. "ma ya'ase haben velo yechto"?!
Mottel,
Thank you for correcting me. I have read some hespedim of the Rebbe but I guess maybe they were given at the end of the shiva or shloshim, and not necessarily by Lubavitchers.
The instances of kiruv professionals falling into temtptation are numerous.
The new corportae kiruv look of smooth, well dressed young charismatic speakers going on campus is dangerous, to say the least.
Friendly Anonymous's response is actually quite fascinating simply because he seems to be corroborating what I have heard, just that he's acting a little surprised and not even that convincingly perplexed that I have raised this serious matter about a very public personality who needs to be held to a higher level of accountability because of his status as a key leader of the Jewish outreach movement, if not one of it's graetest pioneers.
Shlomo Carlebach (the singing rabbi) was also a pioneer of the kiruv movement and over time the complexity of his personality and approach has been put into greater perspective and has even been seriously questioned.
People should not be idolizing a rabbi who some claim was basically a hypocrite and had feet of clay and was not what he either preached or seemed but relied on slick PR and a totally loyal cadre of acolytes who ensured that any of his wrongs would be quashed and supressed.
Let's take a close look at Friendly Anonymous's words:
"Friendly Anonymous said... CBT, that was below the belt."
Very odd choice of words that "below the belt" phrase isn't it when Rav Noach and Aish spend a good part of their time talking about the levels of the "pleasures" of Judaism that sound more like the pleasures of sex and seduction? "Below the belt" indeed.
This was a factor that resulted in Rav Elya Svei, Rosh Yeshiva of the Philadelphia yeshiva and head of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of Agudah in America constantly criticising and attacking Rav Noach and Aish's derech quite openly many times. Everyone in the Agudah Torah world knows that Rav Elya Svei kept up a constant barrage of criticism against Rav Noach and even blockaded and blocked Rav Yaakov Weinberg from sitting on the illustreous Moetzes GeDolei HaTorah because he (Rav Elya Svei) was totally disgusted and opposed to Rav Noach's and Aish's casual attitude and open willingness to discuss (and use?) sex to sell Yiddishkeit.
There MUST have been alot more that Rav Elya Svei was privy too about Rav Noach, Rav Yaakov, and Aish, if he kept up a constant barrage against them at any opportunity and a few times attacking Aish in public for their non-Torahdikke approach to teaching Torah using non-tzeniusdikke sexual material and innuendo that came right from the top, Rav Noach himself blessed and defended by his older brother Rav Yaakov Weinberg the son-in-law of Rav Ruderman. Rav Yaakov succeeded Rav Ruderman as Rosh Yeshiva of the Ner Israel yeshiva of Baltimore, but Rav Elya Svei still blocked and vetoed him from joining the Moetzes which Rav Yaakov never attained until his death because of Rav Elya Svei adamant opposition to the whole Rav Yaakov-Rav Noach-Aish HaTorah axis of wrong haskofas and sexual hashpo'es used to seduce in and mekarev unsuspecting freie young Jews who don't know any better that goes against the very basic Torah notions of kedoshim tiheyu.
This entire subject is actually a huge rift in the Anerican Agudah world between the Weinberg brothers and Rav Yaakov Weinberg's controversial sons (like Rabbi Simcha and Rabbi Matis who use explict sexual talk to do kiruv and who was forced to resign for his own sexual advances against students in his yeshivas) and the many allegations of sexual wrong-doing that led to the doors of Ner Israel that have wracked the Baltimore frum community for years now.
Rav Yaakov and Rav Noach were geniuses, no doubt about it, and they were able to create walls of silence around their perculiar personal predelictions, but they never managed to fool Rav Elya Svei who never ceased his war against them, their habits and their non-Torahdikke hashkofas in order to win over devotees to Aish, that Rav Noach ran more like a cult than as an educational institution.
"All kiruv professionals knowingly place themselves in a dangerous place, even though they say every morning "al tevi-einu lo lidei nisoyon"."
So you are basically admitting that Rav Noach was in that "dangerous place" then, aren't you?
"To me, the wonder is not that some surrender to temptation, but that more don't."
So, again, you admit that Rav Noach "surrendered to temptation" aren't you, right?
"These are emotionally fragile women, who are coming from a culture of "darcho shel isho lachzor achar ish" and the Rabbi is taking the place of parents, mentors, etc. "ma ya'ase haben velo yechto"?!"
This is dynamite, you are justifying a rabbi taking sexual advantge of these "emotionally fragile women" who are in effect sexual predators (facing rabbis who are often no less predatory, although they may act "innocent" and sheepish) for all their seeming outward fragility ("darcho shel isho lachzor achar ish") and you say it's ok for the rabbi to go ahead and fall into the arms (and then some) of these woman because what can you do, the flesh is weak and the rabbis are just comforting these women and it's just natural to sin in such situations (especially if it's "leshem shomayaim" and here we hit the motherload, when must seduction stop in doing kiruv that all kiruv workers face), as if it's as natural as drinking a cup of coffee in the morning? ("ma ya'ase haben velo yechto"?!") And to top it off you are implying that this was the story of what happened with Rav Noach and that we should all forget about it and go home and watch the latest Aish video as if nothing has happened?
Odd. Very odd.
You know some people do have brains in their skulls. And those brains contain minds. And the minds are full of thoughts and questions. And that is why there is (free?) speech and dicussion and questions are written and stated about obvious contradictions especially when instead of the truth, we are yet again asked to swallow wagon-loads of hagiography that has nothing to do with reality, truth, Torah or Yiddishkeit.
It's a tragedy!
CBT, my opening line was meant as a pun, which you correctly sensed. I should have used quotation marks.
"Soro megayes es hanoshim" is the way to go. I limit my interactions with women at work for obvious reasons, and I don't see how the yetzer horo is less just because one is teaching hebrew. V'Or Someach b'South Africa Yochiach. Odom muad leolom.
"Friendly Anonymous said... CBT, my opening line was meant as a pun, which you correctly sensed. I should have used quotation marks."
Either way I got it.
"Soro megayes es hanoshim" is the way to go.
Agreed, but as you know in the coeducational and egalitarian Western world it's almost impossible. When a rabbi goes to offices, campuses, synagogues and private homes to give talks and shiurim and to "counsel" he can't take his wife along like Adam had Chava on his back and it's not even women's work.
The rebbetzins of the kiruv rabbis still have homes to runs and Yiddisher kinderlach to raise. So by and large kiruv is still a man's job, but not every man must fall victim to the lures of every Delila out there, certainly not a man of Rav Noach's stature who you imply fell victim to such a situation when he should have known better as a leader in kiruv.
"I limit my interactions with women at work for obvious reasons, and I don't see how the yetzer horo is less just because one is teaching hebrew."
Good. But it's not easy. If kiruv workers can't control their "urge to merge" they should leave the field instead of causing inevitable havoc and shame.
"V'Or Someach b'South Africa Yochiach."
This is very funny because Ohr Somayach and Aish HaTorah are actually two horns of one bull stemming from the Ner Israel yeshiva to which both were tied. rabbi Nota Schiller of Ohr Somayach is a Ner Israel (and Chaim Berlin) product, just like Rav Noach of Aish was. In fact Rav Noach founded Ohr Somayach in the first place and hired Nota Schiller to be a fundraiser and then Nota Schiller ousted Rav Noach. But that is all not to the point. The episode of Ohr Somayach in South Africa that you bring up here was done by a non-Ohr Somayach educated rabbi, the Religious Zionist Rabbi Lewis Furman, who was hired to help develop an Ohr Somayach branch and later it was found that he was seducing women along the way. He was let go but the question was never answered why the Ohr Somayach leaders never did anything about him earlier when they surely knew what he was doing by seducing lady congregants in his study (the same thing that Rabbi Mordechai Tendler was accused of doing and was expelled for from the RCA for that).
But one thing has nothing to do with the other. Over-all Ohr Somayach is a pretty boring and staid place while Aish has taken off and become much more successful and and its heart stood none other than Rav Noach, backed up by his brother Rav Yaakov, and the two of them were evidently up to no good the way Rav Elya Svei saw it otherwise he would not have been so vehement and adamant in his attacks and criticism of the Rav Yaakov-Rav Noach-Aish HaTorah axis of bad hashpo'es covered up by tens of millions of dollars from students and celebrities who sucked up the Aish version of hip Judaism laced with pleasure/mild sex-talk, sexual innuendo and soft core themes to get Jewish singles of the ignorant masses to pucker up and fall in love with Aish.
It might be a good way to sell romance novels or ladies perfume but not a way to sell Yiddishkeit.
A tragedy, no matter which way you rationalize it or try to slice or hide it.
"Odom muad leolom."
I though that goes on nezikin, does it apply to arayos as well? And are you implying that Rav Noach couldn't help himself because he was just a regular good ol' "muad"? Please be clear, thank you.
I'm saying that, if what you heard is true, Rav Noach is chayov nezek sholeym (and boishes, tza'ar, etc.)to his first wife, and he can't tayno that he was a Tam
"I though that goes on nezikin"
נשים און נזיקין
"Friendly Anonymous said... I'm saying that, if what you heard is true, Rav Noach is chayov nezek sholeym (and boishes, tza'ar, etc.)to his first wife, and he can't tayno that he was a Tam"
Tell the Aish people that. They may even have bought off the first wife (there were articles many years ago about her being a super-Mom&Wife) with whom he had an unusually large brood (18+?) with her own school and whatnot and that is why she is quiet. Nice settlement=big silence.
And to Anonymous who said... "I though that goes on nezikin"
"נשים און נזיקין
?...און וואס נאך
Now that this thread has entered into "the joys of sex" category I'm afraid that we'll never get back to facts and figures. Nobody can talk about sex like yeshiva guys. ("What precisely are the opportunities, I mean dangers, for a fellow in kiruv? Tell me again, let's talk about it and discuss it for a few hours.")
But not being a yeshiva guy I'm not interested in going there, I'm with the fact and figures.
Tragedy, what's wrong with you? You hear some nonsense and are willing to repeat it over and over again even when you admit to not being sure about it? Again, what's wrong with you?
I concede that anything is possible. It's possible that Rav Noiach was divorced and that somehow this knowledge never made its way to me, but I'd be surprised as hell. So I'm calling you out on it, Tragedy. If Rav Noiach was in fact divorced then no one will be as surprised as me and as appreciative to you for bringing this esoteric bit of knowledge to my attention, but if he wasn't and you're just thinking of his nephew or of Motti Berger or of some other aish-related chap who happens to have been divorced than, by God, do you owe all of us - and many others besides! - an apology for your hoitza'as sheim ra.
dear CBT you may have a mind and may be able to think, and you may just be guilty of major Richilos.
I believe that you are factually correct that Rav Svei had a different derech, do you KNOW what his objections were?
I will share the facts as best I know them. Rav Noach and his wife did have some sort of a separation, I am not sure if this was "Covered up" or it is simply no one's business. He moved out of his apartment - upstairs to another apartment - and joined his wife and family on Shabbas. this was the situation until he became ill, then at some point during convalescence he moved into - or adjacent to the apartment of one of his children.
it easy to see why it is tempting to connect this with "Aish's derech", or to look for sinister reasons for this. i personally find it unlikely that he divorced his wife - married some other woman - and his wife still made gefitle fish and soup for him. and is now sitting shiva. there is obviously more to this story - but perhaps it is personal and not sensational, and the twist you gave it purely part of your imagination - or someone who added 2+2 and came up with 22.
personally i think frum Jews should be given the benefit of the doubt, certainly people who are Talmidei chachamim.
if the story is not true - and you are guilty of spreading a malicios rumor, i feel sorry for you.
Herscel - you may want to remove this thread - unless it is proven to be true.
another site reported that R Noach and his wife have been practically separated for many years but did not get divorced. They lived in the same house. So come on, how separated could they be? No different than other couples who are no longer close, who lose affection, but opt to stay married for many good reasons. Divorce would have been stupid.
This version of his marrying another woman is ridiculous. CBT is confusing R Noach with the more substantiated rumors of his nephew at Lincoln Square, even if he (CBT) doesn't admit it.
R Elya's constant and shameful rejection of R Yaakov from being on the Moetzes had nothing to do with Aish. R Elya and R Yaakov's issues go far back and have to do with R Yaakov not being on the same page when it came to numerous Yeshivishe Shittos, like College, Kollel for everyone, and whether R Aharon's horaos were still fully applicable. R Yaakov had many views when it came to the Tzibbur (yes, including Kiruv) that were not in full accordance with the Yeshivish Party Line. And he was very pursuasive. So R Elya did not want to deal with that. I know CBT's version is juicier, but it's drawn from his imagination.
"aish said... dear CBT"
Hello, nice to hear from you, someone who is willing to call themselves "aish" must be a fairly well-connected person to the real Aish HaTorah or someone who feels strongly enough connected to them to use an "aish" ID on this blog. So your words are worthy of careful scrutiny. Let's see:
"you may have a mind and may be able to think, and you may just be guilty of major Richilos."
Ah yes, that old technique of shutting up dissent, take the moral high ground and preach the frummer-than-thou mussar talk when a lot more is at stake. Sorry, but see this: "Chazon Ish says it is halachicly proper - and perhaps even imperative - to reveal negative information about influential rabbis".
It is precisely because Rav Noach was/is a VERY influential rabbi both in his lifetime and now that he is about to be elevated to "Saint Noach" as a gadol of kiruv with an army of followers with the power to influence masses upon masses of secular Jews and others, that his life be put in context and that he be seen as a man just as mortal and weak as any regular guy. Noone seems to be willing to talk about his serious flaws, and if it has to be done here so then so be it. Rav Noach was not perfect by a long, long shot, and you know it, as do many others.
"I believe that you are factually correct that Rav Svei had a different derech,"
Thank you, at least you admit I am correct on this point. Probably the're more points ...
"do you KNOW what his objections were?"
They are outlined above. ONE major objection that Rav Elya Svei had against Aish, and he got Rav Shach to agree with him on that, was Aish's usage of non-tzeniusdikke subjects (meaning sexually-laden content in simple Emglish) in their programs. He spoke out publicly on this and it caused a stir. The people at the Agudah always tried to cover this up because Rabbi Moshe Sherer was an alumnus of the Ner Israel yeshiva and he was therefore automatically protective of the Weinbergs, especailly at times when Rav Elya Svei would level his frequent criticisms at Aish HaTorah's methods, Rav Noach could always count on his brother Rav Yaakov asking for Rabbi Sherer's help in diplomatically squelching any of Rav Elya Svei harsh attacks against Aish HaTorah.
In the Agudah itself it was well know that there was a life-long bitter unending war between Rav Elya Svei and Rav Yaakov Weinberg and it never ended, only got quieter after Rav Yaakov passed away and Rav Elya Svei became ill and became inactive on the Moetzes.
Absolutely no doubt that Rav Elya Svei was privy to much negative information that moved him to be so adamantly opposed to the Weinberg brothers and to the Aish way of teaching that went against standard Torah hashkofas.
"I will share the facts as best I know them."
Finally, a person with an "aish" connection who knows some "facts" -- good. Let's hear what he/she has to say and how he/she says it:
"Rav Noach and his wife did have some sort of a separation,"
BINGO!!! Modeh bemiktzas... And if his subsequent relationship was not even sanctified by matrimony doesn't that make matters even worse? The plot thickens and it's getting to look even more tragic and unhealthy as we look beyond the cover-ups and Aish's well-honed conspiracy of silence worthy of the CIA and KGB, and of the ultimate media spinmeisters that they are.
"I am not sure if this was "Covered up"
It was/is. And the question is why?
"or it is simply no one's business."
Huh, say what? If it was your local shoemaker, then sure plead the rights of privacy and anonymity, but we're talking a major rabbi here, Torah hi velilmod ani tzarich, a so-called founder and pioneer of the modern kiruv movement, a person who himself preached to the world and even taunted it that he and he alone had found the golden formula to do kiruv to secular Jews. A man whose organization claims that it reaches "millions" (funny how all those kiruv organizations always put in that they reach "millions" -- and with about 13 million Jews in the world, after more than twenty years in the business they should be reaching even non-existent Jews by now.) How can such a man get away with please for privacy and anonymity in his behalf and hide behind Judaism's laws of no "loshen hora or rechilus"? What's with all the frumkeit and the hush-hush? Or chas vesholom is Aish like some sort of cult like TM where it was well-known that the Maharishi fooled around with naive self-sacrificing pretty young girls all the while he portrayed himself as a "holy man" removed from all physical desires? Let's get real please, simply because too many people have heard it so many times that Rav Noach was divorced and the efforts of the Aish people to cover it up were always very strong (as you seem to be trying to do now as well) that it's ridiculous. Come clean and don't beat around the bush.
"He moved out of his apartment - upstairs to another apartment -"
WOW!!! This is a bombshell admission!!! A man doesn't just move out of his apartment just because he is merely sick of his wife. It's either because he was KICKED OUT by his wife (given marching orders) or HE WAS FED UP AND LEFT HER (couldn't take her anymore) once and for all. Think about it. It's very serious what you just admitted to!!! And most importantly WHAT WAS THE PROCESS AND HISORY behind this and that led up to this?
"and joined his wife and family on Shabbas."
Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. He was so busy in any case, Maybe he was leading Shabbatons in the Aish center with male and female students at the same time. An it may be just child visitation rights! For the sake of the kids, nothing more probably. It's far-fetched to think that after spending his entire week away from his wife he would suddenly get the warm fuzzies back again when he saw her again. Oh, and how old was the youngest child when he finally went to his own apartment?
In any case, this is also maybe moot, because often he was on the road for a very long time travelling with his retinue of worshipful rabbis and dutiful secretaries to be found at each Aish branch and pit stop and in tow all along his global trails as he was away for weeks on end raising money and on speaking tours all over the world so he never even visited home which could go on for WEEKS and MONTHS.
"this was the situation until he became ill, then at some point during convalescence he moved into - or adjacent to the apartment of one of his children."
Ok, we are not talking about when he became ill relatively recently because he was healthy and on the road for avery long time. Obviously when he became SERIOUSLY ill he relied on family and his many children, he was and remained their loving father and they rightly took care of him lovingly. But chronic illness is not normal life, it's an entirely different routine. So this last part of his illness really has nothing to do with the original earlier "separation" from his wife and all that went with it that even you shockingly and frankly admit to.
"it easy to see why it is tempting to connect this with "Aish's derech", or to look for sinister reasons for this."
Not really, me'inyan le'inyan be'oso ha'inyan. One can't divorce (bad pun) the man from his movement. Just as he has been criticised, Aish rabbis and the Aish movement has faced constant criticisms from both Haredi and secular sources. Haredim accuse it of basically being off the derech, as per Rav Elya Svei's attacks on them, and the the Reform and Conservatives have banned them from their synagogues for being too cultish and of easily attracting their unsuspecting members to Aish's well-tuned programs of an eroticized ultra-light Judaism of "pleasures".
"i personally find it unlikely that he divorced his wife - married some other woman - and his wife still made gefitle fish and soup for him."
You may be very naive or not willing to face the full force of the truth or both (you don't seem like a liar so I am not accusing you of that.) Take a few steps back and review what you wrote. You admit that: "Rav Noach and his wife did have some sort of a separation, I am not sure if this was "Covered up" or it is simply no one's business. He moved out of his apartment - upstairs to another apartment - and joined his wife and family on Shabbas. this was the situation until he became ill".. and later you admit: "there is obviously more to this story"!
Have you ever heard of the expression "if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck...it's a duck" for a public personality on the level of Rav Noach what you have described are all the features of divorce, and certainly a common law divorce if not an outright get. Now of course, noone is under obligation to publish their shtar get or their behind the scenes arrangemnsts online and it would be hard to imagine that Aish.com would reveal such things (they only talk about happy things and about other people's issues, not their own, of which there are many) but short of someone getting some official documents and posting them (and it would unreasonable and foolish to expect that level of proof online), for now, you are affirming that what has been heard from a few sources, that Rav Noach was actually divorced, regardless of this nice little "Shabbos story" you recited of him happily scampering home to sing sweet zemiros to his GROWN kids. How old are those kids he went home he went to, they should all be quite big by now and probably most if not all of them are either married or close to it. Stop trying to covery up Rav Noach mid-life crisis with stories of domestic bliss and religious piety, when below the surface ther was trurmoil and controversial action. Yes, a leading rabbi leaving his wife and moving into another apartment with rumors swirling all around him about another woman and his followers trying to protect his image, is considered major action in the rabbinical and Torah world.
"and is now sitting shiva."
Why not? She is joining her plentiful sons and daughters who must sit shiva and who were hers together with Rav Noach from the long-ago good old days whatever that was, because he was always on the road, at one time even taking a rebbe job in Toronto without his wife there, in the days before he founded Ohr and Aish.
"there is obviously more to this story"
You bet, and you have just proven that.
"- but perhaps it is personal and not sensational,"
Really? How so? Rav Noach was a VERY public personality and not just a private citizen so quit that act. The whole Aish shpiel is to feed off low-grade tintilating and arousing sensationalism so it's funny you want to deny anything "sensational" here.
"and the twist you gave it purely part of your imagination - or someone who added 2+2 and came up with 22."
Huh? Be specific please. What parts are not true and invalid?
"personally i think frum Jews should be given the benefit of the doubt,"
Agreed.
"certainly people who are Talmidei chachamim."
Also true, but Rav Noach was not just a quiet little rabbi sitting in his yeshiva humbly not asking for any glory. Rav Noach has become the center of a big PERSONALTY CULT so he must be held accountable and seen as human as well before everyone falls hook line and sinker for the hoopla about him and the certain "canonization" (lehavdil) that Aish is already performing on him, like an act of embalment in an aura that he does not fully fit in to in the real world.
"if the story is not true - and you are guilty of spreading a malicios rumor, i feel sorry for you."
You just helped affirm a good part of the story so feel sorry for yourself first, that: Rav Noach seperated from his wife, moved to another apartment and that there's more to this, and then you turn around and say someone is spreading a "malicious rumor" when YOU say this stuff yourself and when many people know that Rav Noach's first marriage landed up on the rocks and that he had found true love with another woman who has yet to identify herself openly in public. Time will tell.
"Herscel - you may want to remove this thread - unless it is proven to be true."
You already proved many shocking truths with your own words in your own post right here. Thank you for your help with clarifying this great tragedy!
"Anonymous said... another site reported that R Noach and his wife have been practically separated for many years but did not get divorced. They lived in the same house."
Ok. So that now makes it two sources that confirm a very ugly fact that noone was willing to bring out into the open until now. And if two posters, albeit "anonymous" for now confirm that "something was rotten in the Sate of Denmark/home of Rav Noach, then it should set off even greater alarm bells and not, like this poster wants here, make people feel more "relaxed" and sit back as if all is normal while Aish fiddles as Rome burns.
Can anyone imagine if they heard NOT ONE BUT TWO confirmed reports that their Rebbe or Rosh Yeshiva had seperated from his wife and moved out from his home into another apartment (and not for the reasons that Hashem told Moshe to stay with Him and not return to his home/Tziporah) -- what would you do? You'd say, oh it's no big deal, it's all normal??? Or would you shrei gevalt and tear your hair out and ask yourself what in the heck is going on here??? Wouldn't a NORMAL NON-BRAINASHED person say: Something is terribly wrong here and I must find out??? Or: I can't follow a Rebbe or Rosh Yeshiva about whom there are such "mysteries" ???
Just look at the case of the Lakewood Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Malkiel Kotler whose first wife in Israel refused to give him a get when the Gedolim asked him to move to America and take over the Lakewood yeshiva after his father's Rav Schneur's passing. It was a public matter and everyone knew why she was dumped, Rav Shach said he would himself lead the seperation, and why the Gedolim agreed to arrange a heter mei'ah rabbonim to allow Rav Malkiel Kotler to take a second wife in America.
Such things must be readily known so that the followers can understand why they are allowed to still follow a certain Rosh Yeshiva or Rebbe. But, as in the case of Rav Noach, such things are shrouded in maximum secrecy by his cronies and no official reasons are given why such a notable rabbi should seperate from his wife and live apart from her and why there are constant statements that he's actually divorced, the rabbi and his movement owe it mainly to themselves to clarify what is going on and if matters are horribly wrong, not to follow such a person, and certainly this is due to the Torah-true world at large that supposedly lives by higher standards and by a higher morality. Or does it?
"So come on, how separated could they be?"
Very funny! You are not being serious right? It's like a guy who is shot through the head and you ask how dead could he be? VERY!
"No different than other couples who are no longer close, who lose affection, but opt to stay married for many good reasons. Divorce would have been stupid."
And you claim this is about none another than the great and mighty and holy Rav Noach Weinberg?! Yea gads, how nuts are you really when you make it sound like it's as normal as throwing out your garbage every night?! Get real, this is a very serious matter that we are trying to come to grips with and that you are so far not succeeding in belittling.
"This version of his marrying another woman is ridiculous."
The main claim is that he was divorced, it's not clear if he "married" or just "was" with another woman or other women or whatnot. Time will tell.
"CBT is confusing R Noach with the more substantiated rumors of his nephew at Lincoln Square, even if he (CBT) doesn't admit it."
Rav Noach's nephew at Lincoln Square Synagogue got divorced. That's a fact. He is the son of Rav Yaakov Weinberg and he was married and got divorced from the daughter of Rabbi Maurice Lamm, brother of YU's Rabbi Norman Lamm. In the case of Simcha Weinberg it was a clear divorce and there was another woman involved if not more than one. Nothing official was said (why should there be, the evenets themselves speak for themselves), but after he got divorced he stopped being the rabbi of Lincoln Square Synagogue. The Weinberg's have that kind of reputation unfortunately.
"R Elya's constant and shameful rejection of R Yaakov from being on the Moetzes had nothing to do with Aish."
It wasn't "shameful" it was a brilliant and powerful and moral stand. Of course the issue of Aish was not the only or main one involved, but as Aish came into greater prominence it came into play in the never ending war between Rav Yaakov and Rav Elya Svei.
"R Elya and R Yaakov's issues go far back and have to do with R Yaakov not being on the same page when it came to numerous Yeshivishe Shittos, like College, Kollel for everyone, and whether R Aharon's horaos were still fully applicable."
Agreed. But there's more. It was also personal and about personal information that Rav Elya Svei knew. There was the matter of why at one point even Ner Israel yeshiva pushed out Rav Yaakov Weinberg and why he headed out west to help at his son's Matis faltering Kerem yeshiva in Santa Clara, California, near San Francisco? Eventually Rabbi Matis Weinberg was forced out of that place following serious allegations of molestation against him and Rav Yaakov couldn't keep the place running after that either. They say that the Gedolim made Rabbi Matis Weinberg sign a pledge that he would not head a yeshiva ever again in exchange for ugly charges being dropped against him. What Rav Yaakov was up to during this time and what he really knew was never told publicly, but it was all known to people like Rav Elya Svei who sat in the Aguda's Moetzes where they are privy to most dark secrets in Politburo fashion. So it is about personal stuff especially when it comes to the Weinbergs and not just about high-minded clashes of ideals and ideas that's good for ArtScroll readers.
"R Yaakov had many views when it came to the Tzibbur (yes, including Kiruv) that were not in full accordance with the Yeshivish Party Line."
Rav Elya Svei was neutral about kiruv, it was not his field. He was the arch protector of the Yeshivishe world in America and he viewed that as his mandate from Rav Aron Kotler. Much of the core of the Lakewood yeshiva's talmidim come from Rav Elya Svei's and his partner and co-Rosh Yeshiva Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky's Philadelphia yeshiva.
"And he was very pursuasive."
All Weinberg's are very charismatic and often very controversially brilliant. It's their great strength and fatal tragic weakness.
"So R Elya did not want to deal with that."
Rav Elya Svei knew gants fein how to deal with Rav Yaakov Weinberg, he kept him off the American Moetzes in a one down position at all costs no iffs ands or buts, and he spoke out publicly very often and got Rav Shach on his side criticising Aish and keeping Rav Noach's voice outside of the American Agudah. Only after Rav Elya Svei got sick and weaker did they invite Rav Noach to come speak, but the main Yeshivishe velt still remains very wary of the Rav Yaakov-Rav Noach-Aish axis of bad hashkofas.
"I know CBT's version is juicier, but it's drawn from his
imagination."
Really? Which part? When you yourself admit that Rav Noach was on the outs with his wife and lived in another apartment and you expect that to sit well with readers while you accuse others of "imagination" -- funny, right? NOT, because it's a tragedy!
Wew... Now I feel so much better about CBT's blabbing about Chaim Berlin. Your posts are very long. Very, very long. So you are not stam zoi a blabber but someone that really works at it!
I don't understand what you want exactly. Aish should have made a big public announcement that Rav Noach was not living with his wife. And the benefit of this would have been... What exactly? You want to taaneh that one shouldn't lecture about marital happiness etc unless they are living it. Aderaba, ain chacham k'baal nisayon. Both Rav Noach and his wife were (are) known as very strong personalities and independent thinking people. Perhaps at a certain point it was easier for them address their visions apart, then it was to do it together. The man was extremely driven to accomplish for Klal Yisroel and used all his koichois to that end. Maybe he could have remarried years ago and had a happy life with another woman. Instead, he was makriv his married life for the sake of klal Yisroel. OR AT LEAST ONE "COULD" LOOK AT THAT WAY. But in any case, being separated from one's wife is not an issur. So your drawing on the Chazon Ish to make it as if you are doing a mitzvah rabba by "outing" a leader in Klal Yisroel is very dubious at best.
And if you were really so concerned that "the truth" should be known, you should do it with your real name to give yourself some ne'emanus. So it is muvan m'atzmo that you are not really that concerned about emes, so much as besmirching a Yid, (during his shiva!), that a lot people look up to.
CBT,
I just looked at the Chazon Ish you linked too and he says clearly that one must know that what they are saying is emes. It is clear from your post above (1:42) that you admit that you don't know what the status of Rav Noach marriage was. So regardless of what the truth really is, you are just blabbing lashon hara and being toleh it on the Chazon Ish. I'm sure he would appreciate that!
"proved"
so you turn a separation into a divorce and an affair - and say I proved it?
Read everything I wrote again - and remove your bias - and you will (hopefully) realize that I "proved" nothing. Other than after many years of marriage there seems to have been some type of separation. That proves a divorce? Affair? Another woman?
I assume you were not being technical in your modeh bimikzas – hard to apply it in a case where a third party knows a piece of information, and you conclude a separate piece of information.
Thank you for at least saying I am truthful, I am. I did not knowingly exaggerate or diminish anything, I just said the fact as I have heard them – each from multiple sources, this wasn’t a well kept “secret”. It was known. And yes I do know what goes on in Aish quite well. And if I find out that you are right I will let you know.
“Naïve” – I enjoyed that – you are the first person in a long time to accuse me of that – if only that were true…
I am not a blind follower of Rav Noach or Aish, though I understand your critique and appreciate it, and understand why certain – or many elements in the yeshiva world would look askance upon Aish, its derech and methods, this is all a far cry from besmirching a man’s name and reputation – in order to validate your derech, or invalidate his.
I knew him, and saw his greatness and faults. I think you do not see the greatness and are exaggerating if not manufacturing his faults. You have already admitted that you accept this rumor you heard as fact, because you see it as a mitzvah to attack aish and its founder. What if you are wrong? What if all that happened is as I said after many years they separated for whatever personal reason, does this impact the issue of what he taught?
I have a question - was the Chazon Ish talking about unsubstantiated rumors or facts?
Michoel is very funny! He says it's normal for two very strong personalities to decide to live apart as if it's like saying ashrei a few times a day. Get real Michoel and don't become a blaberrer yourself!
And then Michoel enters into his postulations: "Perhaps at a certain point it was easier for them address their visions apart, then it was to do it together."
Is this a new way to advise people to solve their marital problems?
"The man was extremely driven to accomplish for Klal Yisroel and used all his koichois to that end."
He was driven, yes. If it was only for the Klal is a question. He was self-aggrandizing and built only for himself and Aish. If you ever crossed him he waged all out war against you to destroy you!
"Maybe he could have remarried years ago and had a happy life with another woman."
And maybe he did!
"Instead, he was makriv his married life for the sake of klal Yisroel."
This has to be lunacy. He was "makriv" his marriage to "save" Klal Yisroel? New levels of the absolutely weird!
"OR AT LEAST ONE "COULD" LOOK AT THAT WAY."
What "way" is that Michoel? You are sounding deranged and totally illogical.
"But in any case, being separated from one's wife is not an issur."
A new "heter" is born! Thanks Michoel we needed that laugh today, a moment of sad tragi-comedy, by clowns who will deny the truth even when it hits them in the face like a ton of bricks!
"aish said... "proved"
so you turn a separation into a divorce and an affair - and say I proved it?"
Until you cmae along it was just me allegedly whistling into the wind as if I was making things up on my own. But when you came along you proved that yesh raglayim ladavar and that there was something to the stories that had been circulating for a long time that Rav Noach was divorced from his wife.
You were/are the one that alleges that it's "merely" a seperation, but you have not really defined and explained what that means. A get can also be called in politically correct terms a "seperation" or "excommunication" (כריתת) between a husband and wife "וכתב לה ספר כריתת" and in practical terms it's really six of one and a half dozen of the other. Divorce in all but name, but divorce it is. And so far it is you and another poster who has confirmed this sad fact that leads us closer to another frontier of even darker questions: What really happened? Why was it all suppressed and hidden all this time? Was there also an actual shtar get that is kept top secret? The Aish PR machine drives one away from asking and thinking about this and they rush to defend their master at all costs instead of asking if they've been following a Blue Beard all along.
"Read everything I wrote again - and remove your bias - and you will (hopefully) realize that I "proved" nothing. Other than after many years of marriage there seems to have been some type of separation. That proves a divorce? Affair? Another woman?"
You proved a lot just by admitting to the fact that there were huge sholom bayis problems for the famous Rav Noach Weinberg. From that point it's anybody's guess what the truth really is following your line of presentation. I have heard from unbiased and non-partial sources who worked in Discovery that Rav Noach was divorced, and at first I could not believe it, but when again I was told statements that Rav Noach had fallen for his "Monica [Lewinsky]" (not my words), it again affirmed the first reports that he was divorced. But, now you claim he was still married all along but was really separted for some unkonw reasons, which would make the allegations that he was involved with "his Monica" even more unusual, a love triangle. You can't have it all ways. There are people who claim that he was divorced for sure. There are others who claim he had "his Monica" but you wish to deny all that and say that he was only "seperated" from his wife (being ambiguous by not specifying if by that you mean divorced or not) and that there were indeed other issues. So which way do you want to go, because unless you can verify and make clear what the so-called "seperation" was about, the other allegations remain out there in the world, and they are not coming from me as a private person I assure you.
"I assume you were not being technical in your modeh bimikzas – hard to apply it in a case where a third party knows a piece of information, and you conclude a separate piece of information."
I was applying the principle of modeh bemiktzas to what you were revealing, which you still do not seem to grasp was a very strong revelation and admission from someone like yourself calling yourself "aish" -- you seem to be reliabale so that is why your words take on greater significance than you attribute to them on first glance.
"Thank you for at least saying I am truthful, I am."
You're welcome. It's obvious that you are honest and a mentsch and calm. Hopefully this is not a premeditated type of calm on your part, but you deserve the benefit of the doubt for now.
"I did not knowingly exaggerate or diminish anything, I just said the fact as I have heard them – each from multiple sources, this wasn’t a well kept “secret”."
It was a definite secret to the outside world, meaning outside the very closed Aish circles that tend to keep to themselves and discourage contact with other rabbis and outreach groups in cultish fashion (sorry to say.)
"It was known."
To you it was known but not to the world outside of Aish that are hearing these weird things for the first time, that the head of Aish that is famous for its "love and marriage" seminars was actually seperated from his wife which was bad enough.
"And yes I do know what goes on in Aish quite well. And if I find out that you are right I will let you know."
Ok, but I have heard from sources that are close to Aish as well. It's a big organization and there are many factions in it all over the world now.
“Naïve” – I enjoyed that – you are the first person in a long time to accuse me of that – if only that were true…"
Ok, so you are not naive. Does that make it better or worse? I'm not sure.
"I am not a blind follower of Rav Noach or Aish, though I understand your critique and appreciate it, and understand why certain – or many elements in the yeshiva world would look askance upon Aish, its derech and methods, this is all a far cry from besmirching a man’s name and reputation – in order to validate your derech, or invalidate his."
Yet you yourself openly declare that due to problems in their marriage Rabbi Noach and Mrs. Dina Weinberg seperated from each other and lived apart in the last years of their marriage. That in itself is shocking. I was stating that from what others had told me Rav Noach was actually divorced and that there was another woman involved. Simple as that. That happens every day in this world, just for Aish they don't have the maturity to admit to that sort of thing.
"I knew him, and saw his greatness and faults."
Yes, he was great, no doubt about that. But that is not an excuse for anything. And you admit that he had "faults" so at least you are being open and honest.
"I think you do not see the greatness and are exaggerating if not manufacturing his faults."
His greatness is there for anyone in outreach to see. And no, there have been no faults manufactured here, just a recitation of what is commonly accepted by people in the know. No big chiddushim revealed at all.
"You have already admitted that you accept this rumor you heard as fact, because you see it as a mitzvah to attack aish and its founder."
Is it a "rumor"? -- You already admit that the man seperated from his wife and went to live in his own apartment, isn't that alone damning coming from you admission?
"What if you are wrong?"
What if I'm not, and you are also part of the cover-up squad?
"What if all that happened is as I said after many years they separated for whatever personal reason, does this impact the issue of what he taught?"
He taught good things mostly. But again, you include a bombshell here with your defense when you state clearly that "they separated for whatever personal reason" and that is the crux, until you can clarify it to the contrary. This is not Bill and Hillary Clinton we are dealing with here, this is very prominent rabbi and his wife.
"I have a question - was the Chazon Ish talking about unsubstantiated rumors or facts?"
That no rabbis are above the law. Which part is "rumors" by the way?
Tragedy, my good friend, what in the name of all that is good and holy is wrong with you? If you have any evidence whatsoever for Rav Noiach having been involved with a women other than his wife, whether k'din or sheloi k'din you'd have a good shailah as to whether it would be halachically permissible to share it but I, being less devout than I would hope you would be, would be greatly interested in hearing it. But, despite the fact that such stories would literally be unstoppable if they were even remotely true, you have zero evidence for any of them whatsoever. All that you have is the conjecture contained in your tiny, tiny, very fragile mind and whatever you read into some anonymous person's notes on the internet. That's all you have. Now Tragedy, I wish you all the very best but I have no interest in convincing you of anything, you need far better therapy than I can offer before you'll have the slightest ability to be able to tell white kasheleg emes from black ka'eifer sheker. I'm writing for the sake of the masses of people here who are enjoying the doubt that your silly ramblings are placing in their minds. We all like a good scandal and the average reader doesn't know, is tragedy right with his admittance of gaining all of his knowledge from poor readings of anonymous internet sources or are all of the other people who knew Rav Noach right? No way to know really...
I write for them in order to help the honest part of their minds win the battle against their lascivious parts.
Rav Noiach was not in any way viewed the way that Tragedy fantasises that he was viewed. Rav Noiach created no auras or mysteries about himself nor did he ever do anything BUT discourage them. He was accessible to his students and his home and family were accessible to students. He was a brave, intelligent and loving father figure to many people who actually knew him. His closeness and simultaneous distance with his Rebbetzin was no secret to even first year baal teshuvas who had an interest in him (many aish baal teshuvas were interested in other drachim than Rav Noach's and therefore wouldn't know much about him at all). Rav Noiach's marriage was (so far as an outsider such as myself could tell)...a marriage. Nothing phenomenal and nothing tragic. His wife had very very strong views regarding yiddishkeit that were quite different from his own and, nu, dus iz dus.
Did he have an affair?
Did you? Did your mother? what kind of question is that?! To even raise such a question when there is less than zero evidence for it is to do nothing but confuse your audience into seriously considering something that they rationally have NO reason to consider as any more likely than that their mother is having an affair. It's disgusting to put such thoughts into people's minds when there's no reason to consider it.
Did he get divorced? Not that I know of - and not that you know of, so where do you come off spreading this belief?
Was his marriage a Hollywood marriage? Probably not. Is yours? Is your parents?
Anyhow, I really don't have anything to say to Tragedy who apparently is of very feeble mind such that ALL OF HIS EVIDENCE is based on his misquoting of anonymous internet commentors but I do hope that I'm doing Rav Noach some justice in defending his reputation here. And to demonstrate the fact that my own interest is more in TRUTH than in anyone's "good name" let me be state clearly that if in fact the outlandish happens to be true that Rav Noach was either secretly having an affair or eating at Kentucky Friend Chicken or worshipping in a Scientology Center then I can assure you that no one here would be more interested in knowing of such things than I. I'm as big a fan of juicy scandals as I am of some good gefilte fish mit chrein and would love to hear some fascinating exotic scandal about well known people whom I've happen to have met - but only, of course, if the scandal is TRUE. I may love myself a good sex scandal but I love Emes more.
Kol Tuv.
In the course of being a defense lawyer that noone hired, mnuez says about Rav Noach Weinberg:
"His closeness and simultaneous distance with his Rebbetzin"
He was close and distant with her at the same time? How close and how distant would that be by the way? Like he was at peace and at war with her at the same time? Or air-conditioning and the heating were simultaneously working in their home? He blew hot while she blew cold? It is so sad to see simple logic mangled and reality twisted in the cause of irrational emotionalism.
"was no secret"
Maybe to Aish people it was no secret, for the rest of the world, it's the first time they are dealing with this kind of devastating information. And you are the THIRD person to come here to this blog and publicly affirm that Rav Noach had serious shalom bayis problems seperating him from his wife and noone can be expected to take that and leave it in a total vacuum as if "that's all folks" and there's nothing else to be added or told here, when it's like a half cut-off body that no detective would accept as the end of the trail.
"to even first year baal teshuvas who had an interest in him"
Hmmm, now what is thaaat ambiguous sentence supposed to mean, that there genuinely were females who had an interest in him? Sure, this is what is known as the phenomenon of groupies ("A groupie is a person who seeks sexual and/or emotional intimacy with a celebrity or other authority figure. "Groupie" is derived from group in reference to a musical group, but now has more general application. Female groupies in particular have a long-standing reputation of being available sexually to celebrities, pop stars, rock stars and other public figures...Those who take up positions of authority often find groupies of their own, including Ministers, Medical Doctors and Psychiatrists. Even convicted criminals sometimes have followers...There are plenty of male-dominated professions and occupations that attract groupies. Police and Firefighters (especially after 9/11), and military servicemen...") So rabbis are no different as potential groupie magnets, especially ones who attract lots of young females and males from that kind of open Western culture could easily fall victim to the phenomenon of a groupie.
"(many aish baal teshuvas were interested in other drachim than Rav Noach's and therefore wouldn't know much about him at all)."
Whatever. The people Aish attracts are from sexed up America and when you sell them Torah laced with mild sex talk themes and undercurrents, it's sure to ignite lots of fires that are hard to put out. What is so hard to understand about that?
"Rav Noiach's marriage was (so far as an outsider such as myself could tell)...a marriage."
His "marriage was a marriage" like in "his hat was like a hat" or "his nose was like a nose"? How silly can anyone get for heavens sakes? After telling the world that he was "close" and simultaneously "distant" with his wife and still and all his "marriage was a marriage"? This has been a day of failed logic and high tragi-comedy in full swing.
"Nothing phenomenal and nothing tragic."
Phenomenol enough to make him move out or be kicked out and seperate from his wife, giving rise to all the other credible speculations that have not been disproven, except that many violins are now playing to tear at the heart-strings. That this was going on while Aish was selling the world the joys of "love and marriage" is indeed very tragic!
"His wife had very very strong views regarding yiddishkeit that were quite different from his own"
Indeed, what was this all about? What were her views about his personal habits and who he met with and what he did?
"and, nu, dus iz dus."
And you expect that with this little Yiddish expression to be credible as you portray me as unreasonable? Funny!
Mnuez,
You write well. You need to become frum again put your talents to some use.
Tragedy - Far out, baby! Your mind works in the funniest of ways, I like it!
Michoel - Only if you can guarantee me those groupies that Tragedy keeps talking about. Now that sounds like a life!
More seriously, thanks for the compliment but the matter is complicated (no Tragedy, that does not imply a harem, not ever multi-syllabic word does) but feel free to write me if you like and I'll be pleased to consider your point.
Further note to Tragedy - I don't mean to pick on you and I really do wish you a beautiful life but you do realize that spreading these baseless allegations in public is so shreklach that unfriendly responses are not just allowed but practically required, right? I hope that I don't hurt your feelings but I really do feel that the sheker that you're propounding needs to have as harsh a response as it deserves. A gutteh nacht and God bless you.
I knew RNW only by reputation. I don't believe I ever met him nor do I think that I ever had discussions about him with anyone that knew him personally. I am the ultimate outsider in this inyan. I have no horse in this race.
That said, I am SHOCKED at the behavior of CBT. I believe I am on the record praising some of CBT's posts regarding CB. Let me say now, I publicly withdraw anything positive that I may have said regarding CBT. After reading CBT's comments on this thread I have concluded that these are quite obviously not the thoughts of a sane and rational human being. I can not begin to imagine how someone can broadcast to the world such vile accusations based on a comment that "someone who was involved with discovery" once said. My unproffesional opinion FWIW is that we have a classic case of someone who is projecting. CBT, get help, it's never too late.
The gemorro says:"vehibitu acharei moshe ad boy'oi ho'oihelo...yesh dorshim oso lignai".
The kotzker once said b'derech hatzachus: if people are being doyreish after someone "ad boy'oi ho'oihelo" it must be that he's a true nosi!
Sorry for the interuption. Now back to regular programing.
Lkwd guy,
CBT has an unbelievable imagination.When he was blasting Chaim Berlin and its dean he also claimed that the deans son wanted CBT's son for his daughter!
He wanted us to believe that the son would make a shidduch with such an enemy.Well,well.
Truth be told ,the only blog besides OUJ, which would publish such National Enquirer innuendo is the The Tzig.It's understandable though, because apparently part of "hafotzas hamaayonos" is to slander the opposition, which is every one who is not "mekabel malchus"
A string of posters to reply to:
"mnuez said... Tragedy - Far out, baby! Your mind works in the funniest of ways, I like it!"
Thank you kind sir!
"Further note to Tragedy - I don't mean to pick on you and I really do wish you a beautiful life"
Thank you again very kind sir!
"but you do realize that spreading these baseless allegations"
Nothing baseless, check it out! THREE posters, including you, openly and clearly affirmed that Rav Noach was not leading a normal marital life with his wife, that for some "inexplicable reason" he had taken another apartment and that they were officially seperated. That came not from me. What I said was what I heard very specifically from reliable sources and that was that Rav Noach got divorced and from another source that he had his "Monica [Lewinsky]" not more and not less. No doubt others who knew him even better than that could add to it, but are afraid.
"in public is so shreklach that unfriendly responses are not just allowed but practically required, right?"
What Aish teaches and does behind closed doors is a lot more shreklach than the puny few words that I have noted here thus far. Feel free to respond as you see fit, but emotionalism does noone any good.
"I hope that I don't hurt your feelings but I really do feel that the sheker that you're propounding needs to have as harsh a response as it deserves. A gutteh nacht and God bless you."
Naa, I can take it. You are just using the words "sheker" and expect people to by into your version of Rav Noach's seperation arrangement with his first wife as being as normal as going for a Shabbos stroll or taking a Shabbos nap.
"LkwdGuy said...I knew RNW only by reputation."
What reputation is that please?
"I don't believe I ever met him nor do I think that I ever had discussions about him with anyone that knew him personally."
So already it's clear you have no clue who you are dealing with, yet you are feeling free to venture forth with your forthcoming opinion. People are really funny that way.
"I am the ultimate outsider in this inyan."
No, you are the ultimate ignoramus in this case that speaks about that which he knows zero. Reminds me of liberal Jews who sit in their comfy homes in New York or L.A. and have never visited Israel once yet they know what is best for the Israelis and what is right and wrong, because they too are "outsiders" yet still Jewish enough to feel free to give free advice and judgments. Noone assked you to be the Bais Din Shel Ma'aleh.
"I have no horse in this race."
This is not about racehorsing, this about the real world.
"That said, I am SHOCKED at the behavior of CBT."
It is not me that is shocking, it s the facts that are shocking and I am sorry that they shock you so, you must lead a very sheltered life.
"I believe I am on the record praising some of CBT's posts regarding CB."
If so, thank you kindly!
"Let me say now, I publicly withdraw anything positive that I may have said regarding CBT."
So be it. I am not crying I assure you. I hope to be able to re-earn the little faith you seemingly once had in my words. Perhaps with time, as the truth is learned about everything, you will come to understand and know about things that will indeed shock you about matters you didn't imagine could happen and be true in the Torah world.
"After reading CBT's comments on this thread I have concluded that these are quite obviously not the thoughts of a sane and rational human being."
Saying so doesn't make it so. Could you please point to the exact points you find to be "insane" and "irrational". Thank you.
"I can not begin to imagine how someone can broadcast to the world such vile accusations based on a comment that "someone who was involved with discovery" once said."
In fact the problem is with the entire Weinberg family from top to bottom and with the institutions they have run that go to a much deeper and more troubling level and at a time when the world is being sold a false bill of goods about who Rav Noach really was, you should sit up and take notice and maybe even be thankful that you hear another, saner less hypnotized more objective voice. But you have been shocked and it's puuting you off so it's hard for you to digest stuff that boggles the mind, that's understandable. But what can you do, there is no way to be gentle about such grim stuff.
"My unproffesional opinion FWIW is that we have a classic case of someone who is projecting."
You know, this reminds me of that old idiom, of "do not shoot the messenger because you hate the message" rather than facing up to some ugly truths.
"CBT, get help, it's never too late."
I have all the help I need thanks, and my message to you is, even if now you cannot face up to and digest some ugly truths, maybe you ought to read some Navi, like from Sefer Yirmiyahu and see how the leaders and the people of Bnai Yisroel can sink to the lowest depths, and oh, they didn't listen to him either and he got killed by them for his troubles. But maybe this type of thinking is too mature for you and you should go back to your happy cozy slumbers in never-never land where all is well and where nothing ever goes wrong and where leaders never make mistakes and where all the people are happy followers and never does anyone say a word in protest to the honkey-dory life they all lead.
"Friendly Anonymous said...The gemorro says:"vehibitu acharei moshe ad boy'oi ho'oihelo...yesh dorshim oso lignai"."
Ah yes, our in-house wise counsel who knows a lot but only speaks in generalized remozim. So now you imply that Rav Noach was like Moshe Rabbeinu, well there is a similarity, verified by at least THREE posters now that Rav Noach seperated from his wife, and we know that so did Moshe Rabbeinu, but the reasons and causes for it were quite different.
"The kotzker once said b'derech hatzachus: if people are being doyreish after someone "ad boy'oi ho'oihelo" it must be that he's a true nosi!"
Ahh, yes, the heilige Kotzker. My favorite Kotzker sharfe vort is "A Frummer is a rotzei'ach un a Gutter is a noi'ef, a Yid muz zein Gut UN Frum" and I will let you fill in the blanks and how that applies to this thread.
"Sorry for the interuption. Now back to regular programing."
Not at all, your company is a delight!
"shimon said...Lkwd guy, CBT has an unbelievable imagination."
Which part is being "imagined"? Kindly specify please.
"When he was blasting Chaim Berlin"
You lie! I never blasted Chaim Berlin yeshiva at all. You are being idiotic. 99.999% of the people in CB are tzadikim and good Jews and I have no quibbles with them. You say things that I never did. Now that is what I call true "imagination" if not partial Alzheimers.
"and its dean"
Indeed, I criticised RAS for consenting to have Isaac Hersh, the 16 year old son of one of his disciples Michoel Hersh who kidnapped and sent Isaac to Jamaica in the Bahamas and sent to an "educational" concentration camp aided by the Mormons. Noone in the CB had the guts to stand up to RAS and I did it right here on this blog on this public forum calling for the resignation of RAS and for CB to be brave enough to do that. That event had been preceded by other troubling events like the call to boycott and sheital macher store and the machinations to ban the first L>I>P>A "big event" concert that was proven to be a fraud. You also conveniently forget that for a long time when the RSC affair was being discussed on this blog I freely presented the RAS and CB perspective and was attacked for that (can't have it both ways it seems, oh well.) So quit being a cheap liar.
"he also claimed that the deans son wanted CBT's son for his daughter!"
Which happens to be 100% true, but it's moot now because they've both gotten happily married and are leading productive Torah-true lives.
"He wanted us to believe that the son would make a shidduch with such an enemy."
Obviously I am not or was not such an "enemy" after all, you dope! And yes, it was they and not me that propsed the shidduch, as hard as it is for you to stomach or believe that it is the 100% truth.
"Well,well."
Well, well, what? That you are suffering from your own delusions and wish to pin your condition on me?
"Truth be told ,"
So far, not one thing you have said is "truth" so it's funny you use the word as you lie multiple times through your teeth with a straight face!
"the only blog besides OUJ, which would publish such National Enquirer innuendo is the The Tzig."
Which posts on UOJ don't you like? You seem averse to the truth, so no wonder you would prefer Yated and Hamodiah versions of life all the time, but sorry, it's not the way it works in the real world.
"It's understandable though,"
Pathetic. Stop acting a chochem when it's the opposite.
"because apparently part of "hafotzas hamaayonos" is to slander the opposition, which is every one who is not "mekabel malchus"
And you have done a good job of that yourself right here. Stop acting like you know Chasidus when you just know how to be a liar. Why not throw in the kitchen sink and blame your own obvious stupidity on your enemies as well.
Funny thing is: In all the Hespedim they make sure to mention the Rebbetzin, and how she was the backbone of Aish, without her it never would have happened etc. If they separated or divorced would they do that?
"Anonymous said... Funny thing is: In all the Hespedim they make sure to mention the Rebbetzin, and how she was the backbone of Aish, without her it never would have happened etc. If they separated or divorced would they do that?"
Yet you heard it right here on this blog from THREE different posters (excluding me), one posting as "aish" in fact, who affirmed and confirmed that "everybody at Aish knew/knows" that Rav Noach had seperated from his wife and took an apartment away from her for "unspecified personal reasons" -- so it's just a well known embarrasing and inconvenienet fact that a levaya and hespedim are perfect for covering up...in acharei mos kedoshsim style... and now the mythmaking and falsifications will take on enormous global dimensions as Rav Noach is "canonized" (lehavdil) by the well-honed Aish PR machine and turn Rav Noach the brawler and street fighter from Nu Yawk into "Saint Noach, the 'Tzadik' of our times" in Lenin-style embalming fashion but conveniently forgetting all the radical mischief that Lenin had caused in world history.
Such is the nature of tragic revisionism and cover-up.
Tzig,
Excellent article, and you make some very valid points. Of-course you're being attacked by the automatons cults like 'Aish' thrive on- the truth you expose is their biggest threat.
Mike Reicher
Just one tiny note, Tragedy is a true nebech and I suppose that's obvious to everyone but I still suppose I ought to be make at least this one tiny macha'ah at the fact that he repeatedly puts words into people's mouths, including mine. Any time that Tragedy shreis about his THREE DIFFERENT POSTERS AFFIRMING/CONFIRMING whatever, I ask that readers re-read my exact words and not what Tragedy claims them to have been. This guy is one annoying SOB.
I don't know why I bother but this guy is really getting on my nerves.
CBT, I am well aware that there are problems amongst members of klal yisroel. I am also well aware that some of these problems are not just the lot of the laypeople. Now that that is out of the way let me try to make my point one more time. I'll to be brief in the [probably futile] hope that I may be able to keep you from going into one of your sad diatribes.
I presented myself as being an outsider, or as you seem to be much happier calling me, a total ignoramus. Either way, my point is the same. I am neither pro nor anti aish. I read your comments, all of them. You quote exactly ONE anonymous "discovery lecturer" who made a single nasty comment about the man in question. You accepted that as gospel (presumably because it confirmed some preexisting notion that existed in the dark recesses of your mind) and then went on to broadcast it to the world. When three other commenters pointed out that the information was simply wrong and then went on to explain the tiny amount of emes that was contained in the huge load of sheker, you jumped on it with all the gusto of a true yiddishe yente who just stumbled accross a juicy bit of gossip to share, to somehow 'prove' that your hate laced dirty little story was indeed true. The logical jumps and mind twisting reasoning that I see you engaging in to at all costs bashmutz someone whos body is still warm is what leads me to classify your comments as "not the writings of a sane and rational human being".
Just to clarify a bit more, my new found disdain for you is not at all based on the presumed high character of the victim of your verbal onslaught. It would make no difference at all to me if you were similarly badmouthing the local garbage man. It is pure and simply evil to broadcast such vile rumor and innuendo about someone based upon the flimsiest of evidence.
CBT - yes RNW separated from his wife and had his own apartment. Now several points: if here had been a get, they could not live in the same building without casting aspersions on the get (let alone when he visited his wife on Shabbes).
Why did you not consider that RNW followed an age-old tradition of perushim (specially since he joined the camp of the prushim-Litvaks-talmidei Hagro in E. Israel), and lived on his own in pursuit of greater holiness and deveikus, separated from worldly things and wifely (physical) comforts like a true porush? And Aish kept it under wraps at his instructions -because he shunned publicity about his pursuit of greater dveikus? Kodosh ye'omar loi!
Is that the true story? I don't know. But it is at least as good, and better, explanation than yours, plus allowing dan lekaf zechus.
Just one tiny note, Tragedy is a true nebech and I suppose that's obvious to everyone but I still suppose I ought to be make at least this one tiny macha'ah at the fact that he repeatedly puts words into people's mouths, including mine. Any time that Tragedy shreis about his THREE DIFFERENT POSTERS AFFIRMING/CONFIRMING whatever, I ask that readers re-read my exact words and not what Tragedy claims them to have been. This guy is one annoying SOB.
Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:06:00 AM
Blogger LkwdGuy said...
" You quote exactly ONE anonymous "discovery lecturer" who made a single nasty comment about the man in question. You accepted that as gospel (presumably because it confirmed some preexisting notion that existed in the dark recesses of your mind) and then went on to broadcast it to the world."
I think it's fair to say that Aish & Or Somayach are not exactly neutral in the 'exclusively valid judaism' they use in their brainwashing. They do a very slick job of concealing the hate behind friendly facades, but every while some 'rabbi' or lecturer lets something slip....
Look at the filth one Shaya David Orlofsky spews against chasidim in his 'Different Jews' lecture(s). That is one example of many. Please don't try and present Aish et al as friendly, loving, ahavas-yisroelniks.....it's an insult to our collective intelligence.
Responding to the following posters:
"mnuez said...Just one tiny note, Tragedy is a true nebech"
Min matza es mino. For a nebech, you and others sure are paying a lot of attention to what such a nebech says.
"and I suppose that's obvious to everyone"
It's not, because the stats for readership on this blog goes through the roof whenever I venture forth to add my penny's worth.
"but I still suppose I ought to be make at least this one tiny macha'ah at the fact that he repeatedly puts words into people's mouths, including mine."
You are obviously afraid that you admitted the truth and now you must back-pedal. Pity.
"Any time that Tragedy shreis about his THREE DIFFERENT POSTERS AFFIRMING/CONFIRMING whatever, I ask that readers re-read my exact words and not what Tragedy claims them to have been."
No need to get cranky. Why are you now disputing that three posters admitted that Rav Noach had seperated from his wife? I didn't accuse the other posters of saying that he was divorced or hanging out with his "Monica [Lewisnky]" as I was informed from other sources.
"This guy is one annoying SOB.
Now you are cursing for no good reason, wash out your mouth with soap.
"LkwdGuy said...I don't know why I bother"
So don't.
"but this guy is really getting on my nerves."
Another guy who is getting frazzled. Are you people so fragile and brittle that you can't have a mature discussion about an uncomfortable topic without sounding like grouchy old men?
"CBT, I am well aware that there are problems amongst members of klal yisroel."
I know. I was pulling your leg.
"I am also well aware that some of these problems are not just the lot of the laypeople."
I know that you are smart, you don't have to convince me.
"Now that that is out of the way let me try to make my point one more time."
Sure.
"I'll to be brief"
Too late for that.
"in the [probably futile] hope that I may be able to keep you from going into one of your sad diatribes."
No diatribes, I am trying to answer you to the point, as you can see.
"I presented myself as being an outsider,"
I know what you meant. But the minute you said that it was obvious that you have absolutely no frame of reference for dealing with the Rav Yaakov-Rav Noach-Aish axis of bad hashkofas you were simply out of your league. These are different briyas which you don't seem to get. They function more like Mafia dons than like regular ehrliche rabbis. Rav Noach was a complex and VERY controversial man in the Torah world. He and his Aish followers were frequently heavily critized and attacked by Rav Elya Svei in America and Rav Shach in Eretz Yisroel for a lot of stuff that was beyond the pale. You don't know these people, as you admit, so you cannot really understand the issues and therefore your opinions are, well, meaningless, although well-intentioned.
"or as you seem to be much happier calling me, a total ignoramus."
Only because you admit that you never knew Rav Noach and knew nothing about his history and the the controversial issues surrounding both Rav Noach and his school Aish.
"Either way, my point is the same. I am neither pro nor anti aish."
I know, but that is not the issue. This is not about and up or down vote as to who is pro or anti Aish. This is about a willingness to delve into and dive in and deal with the core rot at the center of the organization that starts at its HEAD with Rav Noach's own life. If you can't take that and get all squeemish and farfrummed you probably should not be reading or writing on this blog or any blog whatsoever and should be following the dictates of the Gedolim about the dangers of the Internet and not get involved here, but since you do come here, don't take up a fake moral higher ground when we are dealing with rotten fish here that stinks to high heaven.
"I read your comments, all of them. You quote exactly ONE anonymous "discovery lecturer" who made a single nasty comment about the man in question."
That was an excellent source that I grilled repeatedly and to my own astonishment that source was adamant in dispelling my own disbelief that indeed Rav Noach was divorced. I said to that source but surely you mean Motty Berger or someone else and he said no, that Rav Noach had had a rough time and that he had gotten divorced. The person who told me this is a very ehrlich and emmmesdikke and Torahdikke mentsch who had no interest in lying or making things up. A professional person who is skilled in his field and he said that Rav Noach got divorced in a cool, calm and collected manner. Now why should that be a secret? and if you notice noone from Aish comes here and says it's not true or it's a lie, you would hear loud shouting, but they come and say, well, it's sorta like not what you think, it's kinda a type of "seperation" and the reasons are private and so on and so forth, that only confirms the reports I heard that in simple mamma loshen Rav Noach hot zich geget mit zein veib! Take it or leave it!
"You accepted that as gospel"
Not "gospel" just the facts. I had agood witness (no, not one of the eidim at a get).
"(presumably because it confirmed some preexisting notion that existed in the dark recesses of your mind)"
Like what? Forget my mind, instead of arguing with me, go out and do your own research and see what you come up with. Expect to be shocked (I know you don't like shocks, but still.)
"and then went on to broadcast it to the world."
So? Isn't that what anyone does when they write anything on a blog? Times have changed.
"When three other commenters pointed out that the information was simply wrong"
Nope, they did not claim to know if he was truly divorced or not and would not say if he was or was not divorced on the record, they just came up with alternative EXPLANATIONS and SCENARIOS that were actually pretty bad, but that you are now trying to undercut and sideline in your efforts to focus on me instead of keeping the focus on the real subject of this post which is what and who was the real Rav Noach all about.
"and then went on to explain the tiny amount of emes that was contained in the huge load of sheker,"
Three posters volunteering information that Rav Noach was truly seperated from his wife is not a "tiny amount of emes" -- it's a bombshell triple admission that all was not well there, especailly with the additional comments that there were private reasons for the seperation. Like how private and what are they? Torah hi, velilmod anu tzrichin.
"you jumped on it"
And why not? They affirmed the problem at hand that you are attacking me vociforously for focusing on, that Rav Noach was NOT the "perfect man" that people think he is, he had grave faults that were in fact quite serious, and the world must know about it instead of believing in a false saint.
"with all the gusto of a true yiddishe yente"
Are there goyishe yentes too?
"who just stumbled accross a juicy bit of gossip to share,"
No, I did not share it, the posters volunteered the information about the seperation on their own, thinking that by doing so they were "reducing" the damage to Rav Noach's reputation, after all "seperation" sounds a lot better than the ugly word "divorce" and can be ambiguously interpreted (see below, he is now a "porush" as well, my foot) -- but let's face it, when any couple seperates, it's the end of their marriage, kapput, they are divorced, just that in the case of Aish it was a huge mortifying scandal they were determined and still are to hide and cover up at all costs, but mentioning it is better than supressing a lie like a cancer, when it's better and healthier to lance the boil and let out the puss and then we can all be healed as the truth shall (hopefully, eventually) set us all free from worshipping false prophets.
"to somehow 'prove' that your hate laced dirty little story was indeed true."
By the way, I am not forcing you or anyone else to believe what I have said. You have your bechira and I am not taking that away. Take it or leave it. I trust my source. There is no law that you must buy everything you read. You are free to throw away your computer and learn Gemora 24/7 and not battel your time with bloggers like me.
"The logical jumps and mind twisting reasoning that I see you engaging in to at all costs bashmutz someone"
He bashmutzemed himself, he has only his himself to blame for being so famous that people want to know everything about his life, including the shmutz. You can't put yourself at the center of PR, and like Obama refuse to divulge your birth certificate to prove that you were truly born in Hawaii USA and not in Kenya Africa, but that is precisely what the Aish guys are pulling off, a cover-up befitting an Obama.
"whos body is still warm"
Spare me the rachmonus lines, Rav Noach would not have had any rachmonus on anyone he didn't care for.
"is what leads me to classify your comments as "not the writings of a sane and rational human being"."
Sure, that is the way people who live in tyrannies and dictatorships arrive at their conclusions that anyone who expresses an opinion that they cannot stomach and that goes against their state sanctioned "rules" must be "insane", and that is why in the old USSR and in Red China they class dissidents as "insane" because to admit that the dissidents are maybe right and that the state is wrong destroys the whole foundation of a state built on lies and falsehoods that allows its leaders to commit the worst wrongs and go unquestioned just because they are popular and powerful and have control over their blind brainwashed followers. I have no problem in rational argumentation, but when people just shut down with excuses that the other side is crazy, it makes the whole discussion pointless. So just move on and don't get involved next time and don't waste my or your time.
"Just to clarify a bit more, my new found disdain for you is not at all based on the presumed high character of the victim of your verbal onslaught."
Which is even more puzzling because now you seem to be admitting that Rav Noach was no great tzadik, just as mortal and lustful as any man.
"It would make no difference at all to me if you were similarly badmouthing the local garbage man."
Now you are just getting carried away. You would honestly get so worked up to defend a sanitation worker? In any case, I have the greatest regard for the garbage men and unlike you I have never badmouthed them or put them down, they do an important job, at least they take garbage AWAY.
"It is pure and simply evil to broadcast such vile rumor and innuendo about someone based upon the flimsiest of evidence."
So now it's "evil" too hey? Feel free to rant as you go ballistic over differences in a discussion. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.
"Anon said... CBT - yes RNW separated from his wife and had his own apartment."
Now yet another, is it a fourth admission? but here comes the spinmeistering, uh-oh!
"Now several points: if here had been a get, they could not live in the same building without casting aspersions on the get"
Since when is this true? Correct me if I am wrong, but there is nothing in Jewish Law that says where or how far a man who gives his wife a get has to go live. Once the get is given they are like strangers to each other. He could live next door and the get would still be a good get. In fact the Torah regards a man who takes back his divorced wife (provided she was not remarried in the ineterim) as a very great mitzva, so being nearby would actually help that happen and the reward would be great. As for "aspersions", what does that have to do with anything or with the Laws of Gittin and there consequences?
"(let alone when he visited his wife on Shabbes)."
Who says he was visiting for his wife? And how often did he do that in any case when his normal routine was to be on the road for a good part of the year? If he liked her that much he would not just "visit" her at her place on Shabbos, he would live with her under the same roof seven days a week all year round. The visits could well have been for child visitation and nothing to do with the wife. Shabbos is when the children are home from yeshiva and they could spend time with their father. Or there is another more sinister possibilty that he merely seperated and had his "Monica [Lewinsky]" on the side all along, with our without a legal marriage to her. After all King David had his Avishag, so why shouldn't "king Noach" have his "Monica"? Um, yes, this is an adult topic, and if you can't take it, switch to the Disney channel. But in any case, you reasoning is sounding silly, but you insist on being heard, so go on.
"Why did you not consider that RNW followed an age-old tradition of perushim (specially since he joined the camp of the prushim-Litvaks-talmidei Hagro in E. Israel), and lived on his own in pursuit of greater holiness and deveikus, separated from worldly things and wifely (physical) comforts like a true porush?"
Because that would be totally ludicrous, it would be like imagining that Rav Noach was like Snow White who lived among the seven dwarfs but they never had sex with her because she was reserved for the prince one day. It is furthermore totally impossible to imagine that a person like Rav Noach Weinberg who had been criticized by Rav Shach and Rav Elya Svei for the leniencies he allowed with the controversial Aish content could suddenly be viewed as if he was a secret Torah "monk" devoted to poverty, chastity and obedience when sadly he was not. So dream on, and oh, by the way, thanks for an example of how Aish mythmaking about Rav Noach is progressing.
"And Aish kept it under wraps at his instructions -because he shunned publicity about his pursuit of greater dveikus? Kodosh ye'omar loi!"
Yeah right, keep on dreamin' baby!
"Is that the true story? I don't know."
Well, at least you admit you are daydreaming.
"But it is at least as good, and better, explanation than yours,"
Why? How? Go do your own research, as I have done, over a long time, don't just talk to one type of brainwashed Aish person, and see what you come back with, ok?
"plus allowing dan lekaf zechus."
Sure feel free, but that does not mean we have to close our eyes to the truth.
Mike Reicher,
I'm curious to know what you thought about the stuff Chabad say about Snags.Would you call it loving? For me, that issue was the the biggest deal breaker.I was not very comfortable around the saint status vis a vis the Rebbe and don't get me wrong I think the Rebbe was a great man, but sainthood reminded me to much of another place, but what made me pack up and check out the Diaspora Yeshiva and Ohr Someach,(where Rabbi Gotlieb teaches) was the denigrating of the mythical "snag"
Stanley R. - so you did not like what the Lubs say about their persecutors the "snags", and that's why you went to Or Sameach. Did you keep your ears open there, too? How could you miss then what they say there about chabad in genral and about the rebbe in particular? How could you miss the introduction Rabbi Kaplan gives to their new students (even before teahing them hilchos shabbes or hilchos kashrus etc. - denigrating the rebbe in the vilest terms with the most foulmouthed insults? There are tapes! Or that fellow Orlowski etc. (there are tapes).And then, of course, there are tapes of the Weinberg brothers (both SY and N) spewing dirt and garbage on chabad and the rebbe at Aish.
What chabad says re snags we can at least understand: a reaction to insults. But what is the excuse for the others? Listening to their "daas teyre'???
Interesting I ate a Shabbos meal recently with Rav Yaakov and Rav Noah's great nephew. He is a very big Chasid of Slonimer Rebbe in Bnei Brak who is another great nephew of the Two great Brothers. Before becoming Rebbe he was one of the Rosh Yeshivas in the Chabad Yeshiva in Lod.
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