Friday, February 13, 2009

Can't we all just get along?!


(Reb Yitzchok Matisyohu Weinberg)

A Shliach's Encounter With Rabbi Noah Weinberg

By Avrohom Berkowitz, Moscow

Some of you may have wondered - as did I - about the loud silence on Chabad websites about the passing of Rabbi Weinberg. Here's something nice from Chabad.org. The story is warm and very conciliatory, especially after what we've had here on this blog this week. Ultimately, however, it all comes back to meetings with the Rebbe, it seemingly always does....

א גוטן שבת

51 comments:

fakewood inc. said...

that article was great thanks for pointing it out

Anonymous said...

UNTIL I SEE THE SAME STORY AND ATTITUDE IN AISH .COM I THINK ITS ITS ALL A LIE

Mottel said...

Anon - don't write in caps - how old are you 12?
What does it matter if it's a lie? We Lubavitchers are notorious liers - we make up stories about our own history, so why wouldn't we make it up about others. Those people we don't like, we edit out of our past, and those we love we canonize into our hagiographic past?
But I mean, it's all in a good days work in our attempt to both simultaneously take over all forms of Judaism - and preach our own heretical views, as we go on our path towards world domination (all of this can be found in the Protocols of the Elders of 770)
----
Tipish. We say something nice and you complain . . . and then you wonder we don't bother.

Emmes said...

Mottel!!!! i see you don't like caps ,why cant you tolerate when someone doesn't like only the emmes

Michoel said...

Tzig,
"What we have seen on this blog"? YOU were the one that did it.

Mottel said...

Emmes - I don't like caps because on the internet it's considered screaming - it hurts the eyes to look at, and is in general rather jarring. I agree with you, I only want the emmes! That's why I can't stand dolts like Anon who push their subjective agenda, and call into question every story they disagree with . . . and yet push openly known lies to support their own side! It's hypocrisy un vibald ich hub lib der emes, hub ich fient aza sheker!

Friendly Anonymous said...

Boruch shekivein l'Reb Levi:

http://levibrackman.com/index.php/The-Jewish-outreach-absurdity.html

daniel said...

"Some of you may have wondered - as did I - about the loud silence on Chabad websites about the passing of Rabbi Weinberg. "

Tzig,
I did not wonder for a second.I know The Lubab to well.Anybody who was not makabel malchus of the Nosi Doreinu, is worthless

Anonymous said...

Mottel
There is a anti chabad derasha of the brother yankel where he says much of the same that R Noach was saying for Berbowitz, Just he adds his nonsense

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Wrong photo, wrong man, wrong chosid!

This week's English MISHPACHA magazine (17 Shvat 5769 | 2.11.09) has a lot of PR-type articles that has obviously come from Aish sources.

There is a photo on page 18 titled: "Rav Noach's father escorts him to the chuppah" of a young clean-shaven Rav Noach on his wedding day being walked down to the chupa by his parents and his father looks NOTHING like the photo you are posting here from the Chabad site.

In the MISHPACHA photo, Rav Noach's father is entirely clean shaven and looks a lot more stocky than the Yid you have posted here.

Perhaps you are mistaking a photo of a grandfather of Rav Noach with his father who was a very modern looking man wearing a bow-tie and snazzy hat and suit with a kerchief sticking out of his suit pocket, looking more like a NY "don" than that heimishe chosid.

Check it out and maybe you can post the MISHPACHA pic too of Rav Noach on his wedding day looking tall and lanky.

Fred said...

In response to the comment about not seeing Likutei Sichos in Litvishe Shuls, tell me Tzig and Co.... how many sichos and mamarim of the Rebbe Shlita did you learn thru this Shabbas?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

CBT

What can I say? That's what the site says. I guess they got it wrong.

Maybe somebody can scan it and send it in?

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Then again, as I read the article, I see it says that: "Their father, Rabbi Yitzchak Matisyahu, passed away in 1945, when Rav Noach was only 15" so that it's then real confusing why the MISHPACHA magazine was given a photo by Aish people and published it with the sub-title "Rav Noach's father escorts him to the chuppah" when he is clearly a lot more that "15" when he's walking down to the chupa in this photo!

So will the real father please stand up? Does anyone know what's going on here?

Maybe the MISHPACHA magazine photo is of an uncle or a step-father or a brother or some other relative?

A clarification would be in order and greatly appreciated.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Fred

Sichos and Maamorim? are you kidding? we don't do that stuff anymore!

My schedule this Shabbos was as follows:

I made Kiddush on Vodka. Twice, just to be sure I had a shiur. Then I ate a salami sandwich and washed it down with another gallon of vodka. Then we all got up and danced Russian dances and laughed at the snags who were having beautiful seudos shabbos. Then we all had some more Vodka, before we fell asleep at the table in our own vomit.

Next thing I knew it was Motzoei Shabbos already.

Hiccup. Burp.

Anonymous said...

my real question is why the good people at Mishpacha try sooooo hard to please the Aishsters? I can understand ignoring Chabad, since they're not Jewish, but why the urge to please Aish????

How many of them already buy the magazine?


I guess in their haste to please them they were careless....

Mottel said...

-Tzig: amazing how much your shabbos sounds like mine! Don't forget sacrificing a young misnaged and putting his blood in our matzos . . .

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I forgot to add that the Kiddush was Friday night, not Shabbos day...


a 24 hour shloof!

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To anonymous who asks: "my real question is why the good people at Mishpacha try sooooo hard to please the Aishsters?" you do not seem to be aware that MISHPACHA magazine is a BUSINESS and ANYONE can buy "print-time" with them and they will then write up your stuff. So Aish paid for most of this content! It's basically an oisgetzoigenne infomercial.

Of course the material and subject matter has to be somewhat choshuv and interesting and they will fill the rest of their pages with other stuff. They supposedly have a rabbinical advisory committee but they actually supposedly even have non-frum financial investors who put up the money to get it going and they expect returns and that is a why a rabbinical committee was needed and it also explains why their articles will often go well beyond what party-line papers and magazines like the YATED and HAMODIAH will publish.

Last week they had an absolutely fascianting article about the Chabad shaliach on Cyprus, yes Cyprus, who has been struggling to make ends meet, so finally he hit on the idea of producing "Yein Kafrisin" (needed for the ketores and recited in the tefilos every day) something that supposedly has not been done in 2000 years since the times of the Bais Hamikdosh.

The OK gives the hechsher and it's quite a story. I loved it very much and I suggest you get hold of that story and read it. It's about the true ingenuity, mesirus nefesh and kiddush Hashem of what one Chabad shaliach can do and he works at it with simcha and gusto. Go get it and read it, I am sure you will enjoy it as much as I did. Absolutely fascinating stuff.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

A closer look at: "The Rosh Yeshivah and the Shliach
A Jerusalem Encounter By Avraham Berkowitz"

Unlike most rosh yeshivas, Rav Noach headed an outreach organization as if he were it's CEO and used his status and function as Rosh Yeshiva of Aish HaTorah as a cover for his main work of building the Aish empire with its outreach centers and Aish rabbi recruiters and fund raisers, and even the main Aish yeshiva in Jerusalem, the Kirk Douglas center has been built to Steven Spielberg type dimensions as a mind-altering recruitment center that has more in common with a planeterium than a real yeshiva.

"When I heard the sad news last week that Rabbi Noach Weinberg, the founder and rosh yeshivah (dean) of Aish Hatorah, had passed away, I knew I had to travel to Jerusalem to offer my condolences to his family and students."

Nice gesture. Was there on record also an Aish rabbi who did this when the last Lubavitcher Rebbe passed away and who wrote an article and published on Aish.com about it?

"I had to pay my last respects to a unique leader of the Teshuvah ("return" to observant Judaism) movement, one of the rare few who'd practiced Jewish outreach early on. Rabbi Weinberg's personal outreach, and the organization he created, helped thousands of Jews find their ways back to the love of Torah and the beauty of Jewish observance."

True!

"But I also carried an important message from Rabbi Weinberg, which I needed to relay. Shortly before Rabbi Weinberg was diagnosed with the illness which ultimately took his life, I was shopping in Jerusalem, near the Kiryat Belz neighborhood, at a large supermarket called Shefa Shuk. I saw an elderly rabbi pushing his cart down the aisle. He seemed to be struggling to locate some items and I offered my assistance."

Why was he left alone to do this?

"After he accepted, I helped fill his cart with the items his wife had put on his shopping list."

Anyone could have written that shopping list, including Rav Noach himself. Fascinatingly in the week following Rav Noach's passing the English YATED, HAMODIAH, The Jewish Press and MISHPACHA magazine did not mention a single word about Rav Noach's wife whereas in past years it had always been that Rebbetzin Dina Weinberg would get mentioned whenever her husband's name was lauded that she had headed "IYAHT" what was supposed to have become the female equivalant of Aish but mysteriously fizzled out and instead girls went direct to Aish's Dicovery and other seminars without her place being mentioned. That not one of the semi-official or official obituaries make any mention of his wife, even to the extent of noting how many children he was survived by, is yet another indicator that Rav Noach was divorced from his wife, but that it was very effectively kept a secret by his disciples. Why that should be so remains a $64,000- question.

"As we continued to speak, I realized that I was helping Rabbi Noach Weinberg, the celebrated Rosh Yeshivah of the Aish Hatorah institutions. Thus began a particularly open and engaging conversation between a 78-year old Rosh Yeshivah and a 31-year Chabad-Lubavitch shliach (emissary) to Moscow, which I will forever cherish."

This and what will be subsequently admitted by Rav Noach in this article is that Rav Noach was always carefull to note the presence and ways of Chabad shluchim, and for good reason, they were his role models and the ones he emulated when training and guiding his own people whom he sent out into the field.

"Both of my parents became "returnees" to Judaism in Jerusalem in the late sixties. My mother was one of the first students in the nascent Neve Yerushalayim girls seminary, and my father was a student for many years at the Yeshivat Torah Ohr, learning under Rabbi Pinchos Scheinberg, may he be well. Both these institution were associated with the "Lithuanian" or non-chassidic orientation."

Typical Baal teshuva stories, and good ones in this case because they stuck it out and made something of themselves.

"While learning in the community kollel (yeshivah for married men) in Detroit, my father searched for the most Talmudically rigorous school for us and found it in the local Chabad-Lubavitch cheder. My childhood was thus an interesting blend of Lithuanian and Chasidic influences and I made it a personal mission to uncover the relationships and the interplay between the two."

This still happens out of town (meaning in smaller centers) but it's presently very rare for there to be so much cross-over because young bochurim are now sent away to out of town yeshivas with dormitories soon after bar mitzva age.

"I had once heard that Rabbi Weinberg had visited the Lubavitcher Rebbe, of righteous memory, before setting out on his Jewish outreach path, and I wanted to hear more. "Is it true that you met the Lubavitcher Rebbe?" I asked. "Of course!" Rav Noach answered. "In those days everyone who wanted to get involved in kiruv (outreach) sought the Rebbe's advice and blessing."

This confirms what is known, that Rav Noach did not just know about Chabad and its ways but had in fact had an early intimate connection with the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself that inspired him all his life. Too bad the Aish rabbis would never face up to this. They would cover this up as much as anything else about Rav Noach's life they don't like or is inconvenient to them is covered up.

"He told me how his older brother Rav Yaacov – whom he held in great esteem and who later became Rosh Yeshivah of the Ner Yisrael Yeshivah in Baltimore – would visit the Rebbe's office weekly in the 1940's to receive materials and instruction, along with travel money, for the weekly "Wednesday Hour" Released Time classes for public school kids which the Rebbe spearheaded and personally administered. Rav Yaacov was very taken by the Rebbe's encyclopedic Torah knowledge."

Rav Yaakov was a genius and illui in Torah. He became the son-in-law of Rav Yaakov Yitzchok Ruderman the Rosh Yeshiva of the Ner Yisroel yeshiva in Baltimore. It's said that Rav Ruderman was himself from a Lubavitcher mishpoche and he was sent to Slabodke when he was very young. He had a great antipathy to Lubavitch eventually. When Rav Yaakov wanted to wear a gartel Rav Ruderman had a fit, so they say that Rav Yaakov wore a gartel under his shirt! At any rate this just shows the cross-fertilization that took place in those days in Brooklyn's frum neighborhoods in the 1950s and how much the Weinbergs, who would become leading advocates of kiruv in the Litvishe yeshivishe world actually were helped in that by the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

"Rabbi Yitzchak Matisyahu Weinberg, father of Rabbi Noach
Rabbi Weinberg related that his father, Rabbi Yitzchak Matisyahu Weinberg, came from a chassidic backround – he was a Slonimer chassid, and a nephew and grandson of the Slonimer Rebbes. In 1929 he had to flee the Holy Land after a tragic accident in his mill when an Arab girl fell to her death. Fearing revenge from the local populace, Rabbi Weinberg and his wife grabbed their two younger children, Yaacov and Moshe, and fled to Egypt, leaving their two older sons behind. Eventually they arrived in America, where Noach and a sister were born."

Just shows the amount of early turmoil in their life and this may have effected Rav Noach's interest and capacity in action and motion and being on the move all the time. he was arela tummler and man of action all his life not afraid of a good fight wit alwys the right rejoinder. He could out-talk and out-joke anyone. If he was in Hollywod, and it's no wonder that that is where he sent his top Aish rabbis to dig and recruit, he would have been one of the biggest head of studios and actors combined. Some Aish rabbis have become fabulously wealthy. They say that Irwin Katsoff who built Aish in Los Angeles is today a billionare (yes, with a "b") in real estate and that Kalman Pakousz who built Aish in Florida and Aish.com has a nephew who is a major arms (as in "weapons") dealer and it goes on and on. Aish has truly become a huge global conglomerate with a web of high powered connections.

"After the sixth Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn, of righteous memory, arrived to the United States in 1940, Reb Matisyahu began to visit the Rebbe regularly and even asked him to arrange for someone to learn chassidut (chassidic teachings) with his children. In those times in particular it was considered perilous to raise a Torah observant family in the United States, and Reb Matisyahu sought the yirat shamayim ("awe of G‑d" and religious commitment) that the teachings of Chassidism would impart his children."

A rebbe's brocha is no small thing. And in this light, it would be good to note that in those days there was no fear or stigma to go to see the Lubavitcher Rebbes and in all probability many others went there such as Rav Shlomo Freifeld and others who went to get brochas and get inspired about doing outreach to secular Jews as noted below.

"Eventually Rav Yaacov went to learn in the Rabbi Chaim Berlin Yeshivah under the famed Rabbi Yitzchak Hutner, where he chose the "Lithuanian" path, followed later by his brother Noach."

At that point Rav Hutner (RYH) became their final "Rebbe" and as such he laid down the law to CB bochurim that they were not permitted to visit the Rebbe's farbrengens, but as we see they still went to see the Lubavitcher Rebbe/s on their own. In CB Rav Hutner was awed by Rav Yaakov's kishrones and called him an "oker horim" and he was the shadchan who referred Rav Yaakov to Rav Ruderman for his only daughter supposedly telling Rav Ruderman that Rav Yaakov could become "der grester rosh yeshiva in America" and when Rav Yaakov got married, Rav Noach followed his brother from CB to Ner Yisroel yeshiva at a young age. Rav Yaakov was about 21 or so when he got married and they say that Rav Yaakov's and Rav Noach's father died on Rav Yaakov's wedding day and that it effected Rav Yaakov quite badly. The article says that Rav Noach was only 15 then (when his father died) so it's questionable how much of a real CBer Rav Noach really is. While there is no question that Rav Yaakov Weinberg is regarded as a full-fledged disciple of RYH and was immersed in his derech hamachshava Rav Noach on the hand was much younger and by nature they say more boisterous and adventuresome and even disruptive as a student to RYH and that RYH was happy to see him go to be with his brother Yaakov at Ner Yisroel in Baltimore.

It would seem that Rav Noach actually was more impressed and inspired by the Lubavitcher Rebbe and his derech and the shluchim than Rav Yaakov who was the consummate Hutnerian lamdan and pikei'ach. They were both non-conformists who eventually as adults drove people like Rav Elya Svei crazy, and even drew the fire of Rav Shach, with their willingness to accomodate less savory methods to mekarev people, like talking in soft-core sexual innuendos in doing kiruv that can be very dangerous, but did not bother Rav Noach in the least.

"Their father, Rabbi Yitzchak Matisyahu, passed away in 1945, when Rav Noach was only 15. Their older brother Moshe remained a Slonimer Chosid with close ties to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and accompanied his brother Noach to meet the Rebbe in 1958.

So already at 18 Rav Noach is showing signs of getting close to what would become a lifetime ambition to become a new type of "non-Lubavitcher rebbe of kiruv" himself.

"Needless to say, I felt privileged by all this information, and listened, transfixed. Somehow, though, we had made our way to the register, even while stopping to talk every few feet. Rabbi Weinberg paid for the groceries and, still engrossed in our conversation, we walked out together. After loading the groceries into his trunk, Rabbi Weinberg invited me to sit in his car."

Seems that Rav Noach was trying to have a seance with the last Lubavitcher Rebbe through this shliach he bumped into.

"Gently nudging the conversation back to that night in the Rebbe's study, I asked Rabbi Weinberg, "What did you speak about with the Rebbe?" Rabbi Weinberg told me that in those times it was highly unusual to become involved in reaching out to non-observant Jews, and this type of activity was often frowned upon or even condemned by many leading yeshivas."

This is vitally important because so few people know this today. Even today, Litvishe yeshivas today are not involved in kiruv work and very few of their alumni become pure kiruv rabbis.

"Lubavitch was the trailblazer, he said,"

This is a key admission! It proves beyond any doubt that Rav Noach knew the bottom line and that he used the Chabad-Lubavitch movement as his role-model and blueprint to build his own organization.

"but slowly a few others had started to combat the great fire of assimilation tearing at the Jewish People."

This would remain a lifelong passion with Rav Noach and he can be given great credit for making many people aware of the need to do something about this.

"In 1953 he – Rabbi Weinberg – traveled to Israel by boat to speak about this with the Chazon Ish, who passed away before his boat arrived."

This is a perculiar story. What was he going to expect from the Chazon Ish in any case? And it shows his independent streak because if he already heard from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and he was a student of RYH at CB when he was younger and presumably kept in touch a wee bit with RYH as his brother Rav Yaakov was a talmid muvhak of RYH, and they both had in common the rosh yeshiva Rav Ruderman in Baltimore, what was Rav Noach hakking in kop that he wanted to go talk to the Chazon Ish like it was gillui Eliyahu? It makes for a nice story and it takes away the focus and the mind of a yeshivishe person from where Rav Noach got his true inspiration and ideas from which was the Chabad movement and its head the Lubavitcher Rebbe, so he distracts the oilem goilem with this nonsense about his "haj" to see the CI as if that was something big when the the big picture was already implanted in him and taking root in his head a long time before.

"Later he became a salesman for his brother's company and traveled to small cities throughout the United States to rustle up business – and discovered Jews of all kinds who were distant from their heritage."

It was supposedly as an insurance salesman that he went around the US and the world and in fact one can see that Rav Noach used a lot of what they teach insurance salesmen of how to "sell products" and to convince customers who have doubts by doing a snow job on them. This became his stock in trade as he sold Yiddishkeit by the wagonload to sceptics and why he had a great affinity for potential baalei teshuva who came from the corporate world and he felt comfortable with them as they joined up to create, market and sell the Aish product and empire to the world based on the best techniques of super salesmen.

"Upon meeting the Rebbe, Rabbi Weinberg said, he asked the Rebbe for a formula to reach alienated Jews."

There must have been a lot more discussed but we shall never know.

"The Rebbe told him that he should reach fellow Jews through their neshamah, their soul, by sharing with them the teachings of Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov (the founder of Chassidism), and that he, Rav Noach, should also begin learning chassidut regularly in order to inspire his own service of G‑d."

The best advice, and one thing is for sure, Rav Noach was very hartzig and he came across as full of soul, no doubt about it.

"Rabbi Weinberg told me that, out of respect toward the Rebbe, he listened but remained silent, since he followed a different approach and could not agree."

These are just words. The Weinbergs are geniuses and they could learn through Tanya and many other Chasidishe seforim quickly and easily. So why he has to say he was still a Litvak is puzzling, when even the Litvaks saw him acting more Chasidish in style and as a Rebbe more than anything else.

"Later he went back to receive the Rebbe's blessing after he got married."

Many did this.

"He concluded, it is high time to set any differences aside, and focus on the commonality and appreciate each other's roles in Jewish outreach Rabbi Weinberg then reflected that although initially chassidut was indeed not taught in Aish Hatorah, the yeshivah had since incorporated into its curriculum some of the principal ideas of Chassidism. Some of the yeshiva's teachers are Chassidim as well, he added."

Chasidim but not Lubavitchers. And indeed, they teach anything that will get the students' interests.

"On this topic, I spoke to Rabbi Weinberg candidly about how pained I was from seeing discord in some communities between his students and Chabad. Rabbi Weinberg told me again how he recognizes the great work of Lubavitch in leading the Teshuvah movement"

Another admission of Rav Noach's clear perception of Chabad's role in the kiruv field, something he spoke about quite often in guiding his own students.

"and said that many of the students who learned at Aish Hatorah were set on their Jewish path – and were still connected – with Chabad rabbis, and that many students who began at Aish are now Chabad-Lubavitch chassidim."

Notice how Rav Noach did not answer the question. The question was about why the Aish and Chabad rabbis clash, but Rav Noach waxes lyrical about sharing students. He let the fight stand even though he just said "it is high time to set any differences aside, and focus on the commonality and appreciate each other's roles in Jewish outreach." So which is it?

"He and I shared anecdotes with each other, both positive and negative, about some of the differences. (The conversation also veered off to some of his earlier attempts, in the '60's and '70's, to create various yeshivas and organizations.)"

Indeed, books could be written about this.

"But, he concluded, it is high time to set any differences aside, and focus on the commonality and appreciate each other's roles in Jewish outreach."

So what was he and Aish going to do about it? Talk is cheap.

"To hammer home his point about the positive interplay between his work and Chabad, he shared with me the story of his first baalat teshuvah ("returnee"), a story I finally heard repeated again, in greater detail, in his very modest apartment in Jerusalem's Kiryat Sanz last night as I sat with his eight sons, all rabbis and scholars in their own right:...This girl eventually married a brilliant student learning in Kfar Chabad and today, as Chabad-Lubavitch Chassidim, they, too, have helped hundreds along the path of Teshuvah…"

Not an uncommon story because at the end of the day, many Baalei teshuva make up their own minds and go their own way regardless of what they hear from all the rabbis they come into contact with.

"We had been sitting in the car on Yirmiyahu St., with the motor running, for more than an hour."

A long shmues it seems.

"Rabbi Weinberg agreed, but said that he found the conversation very important, an expression of Divine Providence, and invited me to come to his home next time I'm in Israel to continue it. After giving me his home and cellphone numbers, the Rosh Yeshivah repeated that he appreciated the opportunity greatly and we both expressed our hopes that it would eventually lead to more ahavat yisrael and unity among Jews."

The hopes and yearnings of a man at the end of his time, but the followers have yet to learn these lessons.

"After thanking him, too, I went on my way. Rabbi Weinberg fell ill shortly afterward and, due to me living on shlichut in Moscow, that meeting sadly turned out to be our only one. But I feel that the message and the content of our conversation must be recorded and shared to further the unity between fellow Jews."

Indeed, than you.

"The staff of Chabad.org join with Rabbi Berkowitz in expressing our heartfelt condolences to the Rosh Yeshivah's family and students. May your efforts in continuing his work of bringing the light and joy of Torah to our People bring you true consolation."

Very gracious of you. Will it be reciprocated in kind?

yoshe kalb said...

Mottel and Tzig,
you're just a bunch of tzugekummene. We have only Benedictine. And not before or after davening, but instead of.

Anonymous said...

CBT,

Sorry to say this, but you are coming across as an obsessive nut. Lighten up!!!!!!

mottel said...

CBT
Why don't you get your own blog to post your verrry long and rambling thoughts?

Mottel said...

Mottel . . . there can be only one Mottel in these hear parts!

Fred said...

Sarcasm and poetics do not hide behind.
If you sre not doing Chittas and Rambam, a masechta a year, mamarim and sichas weekly, daavening b'avodah instead of shmoozing and knocking it off in 20 minutes... you are not representing the Rebbe Shlita here.
How can you expect the snags to follow the Rebbe's horaahs when you choosenot to.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Fred: you'll excuse me for thinking you were a Lubavitch hater, it sure sounded like that in some of your other posts.

So now you're my conscience?

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know about a claim that initially R. YY Ruderman consented to a Tanya Shiur by R. Avrohom Elya Axelrod (a mechutan with R. Baruch Ber incidentally) but later recanted?

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Anonymous said..."CBT, Sorry to say this, but you are coming across as an obsessive nut. Lighten up!!!!!!"

Seems you have been infected with sound-bite fever. Refuah sheleima.

mottel said..."CBT Why don't you get your own blog to post your verrry long and rambling thoughts?"

As long as Tzig is happy to have me, I will stay. I find it inspirational here. It's always better to have an unofficial editor of ALL the posts. By the way, which part was the "rambling" part? You may not realize it, but I gave over golden nuggets of important information. Did you make it past eighth grade in English?

Friendly Anonymous said...

Rabbi Berkowitz is practicing what he preaches.

A quick search at Chabad.org shows that he does not run a "chabad house" but rather the "International Jewish Community of Moscow".

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Attention:

CBT is a major asset to this blog, IMHO. He brought a totally new dimension to the blog and we are extremely thankful to him. If you think his posts are too long just ignore them, but please don't tell him where to go.

Thank You

Anonymous said...

Aish has the same picture as chabad.org's Noachs Father: http://image.aish.com/RavNoach'sFather.jpg

So I guess Mishpacha has the wrong father..

Yeruchem said...

That wouldn't be the first nor the last thing Mishpacha mag got wrong.

Who wrote the piece?

bpunbound said...

AAAHHHH!

Classic CBT.

A Dank.

yosef said...

One thing is clear
When CBT unleashes his posts about the Lubab, with Lewinsky hints and power grabs and other lies,I'm quite sure that Bpunbound and Tzig &Co won't be very amused and kind.CBT is "good" for the Lubab as long as he "uncovers" dirt about people that Tzigs handlers don't like.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

tell me please Yosef: who are my "handlers?"

Sheya said...

made Kiddush on Vodka. Twice, just to be sure I had a shiur. Then I ate a salami sandwich and washed it down with another gallon of "vodka. Then we all got up and danced Russian dances and laughed at the snags who were having beautiful seudos shabbos. Then we all had some more Vodka, before we fell asleep at the table in our own vomit.

Next thing I knew it was Motzoei Shabbos already.

Hiccup. Burp."

Tzigggy,
You shabbos reminds me of the time I checked out 770 motsoeih peysach after the seudas moshiach.There was garbage, broken bottles which was knee deep, just like after a gang rampage.The worst part were the drunks passed out cold and the drunks throwing glass bottles at each other.
Ok maybe because this was a Meshichist fest.Whatever it was it left me with a sickening feeling about Lubavitch

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Sheya

You do realize I was joking, right? good.

Your account of the Motzoei Pesach may be true but I doubt it tells the whole story. What? you expected a spotless shul a short time after so many people were packed in there?

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...
"Attention: CBT is a major asset to this blog, IMHO."

Thank you kindly. I do not take the host for granted. He is a serious person who has thought through many of his own positions in life. You don't have to agree with him but he is an important frum Blogger. If people don't like what goes on here they can join their buddies at a local or online or telephone hookup daf yomi shiur, and I mean that.

"He brought a totally new dimension to the blog and we are extremely thankful to him."

Thank you, and I enjoy reading the different perspectives I come across here.

"If you think his posts are too long just ignore them, but please don't tell him where to go. Thank You"

Agreed and thank you.

bpunbound said..."AAAHHHH! Classic CBT. A Dank."

I assume you are referring to the mix-up I noticed at MISHPACHA about their supposed photo of Rav Noach's father not matching with the other one published. In any case we should have all been paying attention when articles have told us that Rav Noach's father died when Rav Noach was 15, so the man in the bow-tie that MISHPACHA says is his "father" walking him down to the chuppah is not his real biological birth father.

yosef said..."One thing is clear
When CBT unleashes his posts about the Lubab, with Lewinsky hints and power grabs and other lies,I'm quite sure that Bpunbound and Tzig &Co won't be very amused and kind."

The above sentence is totally incoherent and just reveals a person foaming at the mouth. What are you talking about, when just these three phrases don't add up? How do "CBT unleashes his posts about the Lubab" + "with Lewinsky hints" + "and power grabs" + "and other lies" make any logical sense???? As if saying "unleash the dog" + "hints of chocolate flavor" + "grab your bags" + "you are a liar" = sentence????

But I think I know what you are TRYING to say, so let me deal with the inner content while we peel away your obvious anger at my posts. So let's try again:

"One thing is clear When CBT unleashes his posts about the Lubab,"

Get this through your head. I am not a Lubavitcher nor do I subscribe to any form of Chasidus. That being said I believe one can be objective about almost all the positive things that Chabad and its Rebbes have accomplished for Yiddishkeit in this world and I am a great admirer of the Chasidishe velt. I am half Chasidish by heritage, my mother was from Poland, and I am half a pure Litvak, my father was from Litte. (Actually a lot like Rav Yitzchok Hutner, which is one reason I have always strongly identified with him the more I got to know him starting nearly 33 years ago.)

Note also that on this very blog I have already noted in the past that I have my own great question about one of the big things that puzzles and bothers me about the late Lubavitcher Rebbe and that is his handling of the Barry Gurary affair which I have found very troubling and worrisome and I have spoken out about it on this blog.

I absolutely do not agree with the Lubavitch party line that Barry Gurary was some sort of evil person. To me he is no less than RSC in CB who was vilified and demonized by the CB leadership, mainly RAS and RAF and RYD is also involved, in their long-term strategy to assert their dominance and rid themselves of someone who may have stood in their way by speaking truth to power. I see Barry Gurary in the same light and as you will see it is not what Tzig thinks on this blog and it is not what the mainstream PC Chabad opinion thinks. I have thought long and hard about the Barry Gurary episode and I have concluded that in the way the last Lubavitcher Rebbe treated him he revealed his own human failings rather than anything inherently wrong or evil about Barry Gurary who was after all a blood and flesh only grandchild of the 6th Rebbe while Rav Menachem Mendel was a son-in-law. This is avery complicated and painful parsha even for many Lubavitchers and I have spoken to a few very mature ones that I know, and it's actually a Chabad Lubavitch tragedy. In any case, today it is all moot because both men are no longer with us and both of them left no descendants so that the Lubavitch dynasty of seven rebbes ends with both. The last Lubavitcher Rebbe and his nephew Barry Gurary. May they both rest in peace.

I even think that it is halachically correct and logical to assert that Barry Gurary was entitled to the seforim he wanted to take from his grandfather's (the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe) and sell. Anyhow, like RSC at CB he obviously did not stand a chance against the might of Chabad and the power of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe and he lost. I could go on about this, and I have been attacked by the Lubavitcher posters on this blog for these views in the past, but the point I am making is that I am not in cahoots with Lubavitch or anyone else and what I write is based on facts and the truth and this blog has been kind enough to post these things. There is more to say on this, but I think it's more than enough for now.

"with Lewinsky hints"

These are not "hints" they are things that happened. If you are too squeemish or naive or you wish to stick your head in the sand like an ostrich feel free, but just because you are having a "baby-attack" does not mean that everyone should infantalize themselves and write the kind of drivel you can read in the Yated every week.

"and power grabs"

Power grabs happen all the time. Are you five years old? Even kids grab toys away from each other by the way. Grow up because you are just showing what an immature baby you really are.

"and other lies,"

So you imply that everything is just "lies"? Go back to reading Olomeinu childrens magazine won't you.

"I'm quite sure that Bpunbound and Tzig &Co won't be very amused and kind."

Don't worry, they can take care of themselves.

"CBT is "good" for the Lubab as long as he "uncovers" dirt about people that Tzigs handlers don't like."

So which is it "dirt" which presumably is TRUE altho unflattering or "lies" which is made up? You can't have it both ways. There is no major "uncovering" of anything by me. Did the events themselves not happen? The personalities themselves did the things that are part of a PUBLIC RECORD. We are not talking about private nobodies but about major rabbis and personalities who are in the PUBLIC EYE, they get their photos taken all the time with articles about them published in frum papers, magazines and books all the time in hagiographic fashion.

But now we have an Internet with websites and blogs in the blogosphere with an "alternate press" if you will and with all the great freedom of the press and freedom of speech that we all enjoy the public gets to post and read about ALL aspects of the great people who lead them. When they have few faults it shows but when they have commited major blunders they deserve to have the public focus on it and learn more.

What about that don't you like? If all this is no good PLEASE take the advice of the Gedolim (I mean it) throw away your computer and do not go the Internet which is forbidden according to them and you will lead a happier life because ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

AND YES, I did read CBT's comment. The whole thing. Even where he disagrees with me.
so there!

Sheya said...

Tzig
I realized you were joking or at least making an attempt.My description was an honest depiction of what I saw.Believe me that coming from Boro Park I don't expect shuls to be anywhere close to spotless after yom tov.However the levels of dirt and mayhem I saw there are things I had never witnessed before.I t was shocking.
Again, I know 770 is run by Meshichists, and there seemed to be loads of drunk Israeli boys running around with the Meshichist look.All I was pointing out is that apparently degrees of alcohol binging etc seem to be things that Lubavitchers should not joke about too freely since it seems to be a real problem

yosef said...

CBT,
You start by attacking my post as being "incoherent" and "foaming at the mouth" (hey, that parts sounds like you are projecting) but apparently got a very good idea of what I meant.I guess it was very coherent to someone who wanted to get it.

Now,I don't envy the Lubab gang of BPunbound and Tzig&Co, who will have to allow you to comment on Lubavitch also, since they have claimed and I quote The Tzig:"CBT is a major asset to this blog, IMHO. He brought a totally new dimension to the blog and we are extremely thankful to him"
Bekitser, the Tzig is now going to have to handle your take on Lubavitch.
So let us see if you'd also address some of the problems in Chabad such as the lack of succesion which is causing all kinds of problems.How about the claim that The Rebbe is Noso Hador, to which he was not exactly democratically elected and in addition the small "problem" of "gimmel tammuz" would lechoira put him out of the running.
There would probably be other things I would like to discuss, but getting through the censoring process of Tzig&Co is not easy,if at all.

Anonymous said...

Seems Tzig left another guy from Oholei Torah at the controls and he let the post thru.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

yosef can't seem to get enough of me. Really, he is quite tiresome and goes on and on, but since he is still at it, I don't mind answering him:

"CBT, You start by attacking my post as being "incoherent" and "foaming at the mouth"

It was and you still are, just look at how you are trying to nip and everyone's heels here and you are thereby not really having a normal conversation with anyone.

"(hey, that parts sounds like you are projecting) but apparently got a very good idea of what I meant.I guess it was very coherent to someone who wanted to get it."

No, you are just lucky I am very patient, that I took lot's of college-level English language analysis courses, and that I can see through layers of baloney including yours.

"Now,I don't envy the Lubab gang of BPunbound and Tzig&Co,"

Now is that nice of you to insult the host of this blog by calling him part of a "Lubab gang" as if only one group forms "gangs"? and again it shows your childishness that you think in terms of "gangs" like the pre-adolescent boy that you reveal yourself to be with such comments.

"who will have to allow you to comment on Lubavitch also,"

I am not an expert on Lubavitch and I have never claimed to be. I never learned in their yeshivas and I was never among their Rebbes, events and institutions. I was never at a farbrengen. I saw the Lubavitcher Rebbe once in my life, when in the 1970s (maybe it was early 1980s) some relatives wanted to see him in person at 770 and I had the honor of davening mincha in his minyan with him about five feet away from me looking around at us in the room with his unique deep sharp blue eyes. A few times when in need of brochas I sent a request for brocahs from the Rebbe via his gabbaim. Who knows, I may have got one for myself. I have known some wonderful Lubavitcher talmidei chachochim, all warm people who are friends for life, not just flashes in the pan. My contacts with Chabad Lubavaitch have mostly been like most other Jews. I have benefited from their warm and gracious hachnosas orchim whenever I have travelled to places where it was hard to keep Shabbos and kashrus and they opened up their homes and hearts to me and my family, no questions asked and they did not ask for a penny in return. This is something most frum Jews and even non-frum Jews have experienced. I respect all rabbonim including Lubavitcher ones. I do not have to agree with everyone's hashkofas to respect them.

RYH taught that hakoras hatov applies to middos and not to hashkofes.

So just because because one has benefited from Chabad, as we all do by being allowed to post on this blog, or by staying at a Chabad House or by eating at the home of a Chabad rabbi and rebbetzin who welcome us like long-lost brothers and sisters does not mean we have become card-carrying members of Chabad, but at least have what the British call a little good manners, and don't act so thick, it doesn't suit you.

"since they have claimed and I quote The Tzig:"CBT is a major asset to this blog, IMHO. He brought a totally new dimension to the blog and we are extremely thankful to him"

Buddy, what are you saying? This is the figurative foaming at the mouth I noted about you. You may not like what I write but evidently enough people do, and neither they nor I are beholden to each other nor to you. Are you praying that the world be taken over by a Chabad-hating yeshivishe theocracy that will look more like a Taliban and Ayatola regime than true Yiddishkeit? Hashem yerachem.

"Bekitser, the Tzig is now going to have to handle your take on Lubavitch."

I don't have a bad take on Lubavitch, but I can't stand the foolishness you insist on spouting.

"So let us see if you'd also address some of the problems in Chabad such as the lack of succesion which is causing all kinds of problems."

What "lack of succession"? Since when are you such an expert on Chabad to decide that they need a "succession" or not? So YOU want my opinion on this issue? Ok, I'll be delighted to share it with you. My THEORY (since I am not privy to what the last Lubavitcher Rebbe wanted or had in mind, it is only my personal theory, take it or leave it) is that this was the plan and the will of the last Rebbe. This is what he wanted, to leave no successor and make himself the last official Rebbe. Why? (Can't be sure, since he didn't tell me and I have no proof, only what I can see and have thought about over the years) is that from the time the Rebbe took over Chabad in 1950 he created his specific model of the Chabad movement and he wished it to be the vehicle that would continue AFTER HE WAS GONE EVEN WITHOUT HIS PHYSICAL PRESENCE until the end of time, meaning until the final coming of the true Mashiach, until the end of time.

Note, that world is due to exist for only 6000 years according to the Gemora and we are now in the year 5769, so that means that the world has 231 years left until it ends as we know it, and the Rebbe must have felt that what he created was strong enough to keep going for another 231 years without him giving daily instructions and finetuning it as he did when he got the modern Chabd movemnent launched.

How was this grand plan to be accomplished? Through the Lubavitcher Sheluchim whom the Rebbe hand-picked and groomed from the day he took over as Rebbe until he suffered his debilitating stroke in 1992. So that for 42 years the Rebbe built up his select army of Shluchim and the even more amazing Shluchos, imbuwed with agreat Chasidishe and Torah chinuch (with no secular studeis ad not college for sure), gave them their marching orders to help, mekarev and mechanech Yidden and sent them out mostly in their early 20s when they were adaptable and had lots of energy to the four corners of the Earth wherever Jews could be found and gave them advice at every turn as they kept on reporting to him.

The Rebbe was one of the first to grasp that the world had become a "global village" and with modern travel and communication (technology and science at work) his shluchim were not that far away really from Lubavitch World Headquarters at 770 Eastern Parkway.

So far this has been working and it's questionable if a new rebbe could have improved on this. Of course I have given a pragmatic approach not based on theology or on Chasidus, but I leave the theological explanations to greater minds than mine. In short, each Shaliach is a miniature representation and near-embodiment of the Rebbe and the Rebbe lives on through them forever. Now that wasn't so bad, was it? Feel free to share your thoughts IN POLITE LANGUAGE and not like an argumentative pain.

"How about the claim that The Rebbe is Noso Hador, to which he was not exactly democratically elected and in addition the small "problem" of "gimmel tammuz" would lechoira put him out of the running."

Now you are talking like a dope. No gadol is "democratically elected" in any Torah, Hasidic or Haredi world situation. A Gadol Hador is not elected and true Yiddishkeit is not a democracy, and it just shows how out of it you really are if you can even say such a basically wrong thing in hashkofa. Has anyone elected Rav Eliashiv to be the Gadol HaDor of the Yeshiva World? The thought itself is a joke, yet every yeshiva person knows and accepts the great status of Rav Eliashiv.

Every Chasidic group has a strong belief that only its Rebbe is the Nosi of the Dor. Satmar felt that way about the first Satmar Ruv that he may be Mashiach and the Belzers today are convinced that the present Belzer Rebbe is probably the Moshiach too. This kind of stuff is nothing new among Chasidim and in Chasidism which was set up by the Baal Shem Tov as a movement to bring the true Moshiach so it keeps coming up again and again. That the Rebbe passed away like all mortals and what Lubavitchers want to believe about him is their business. In the Chumash, even though Yaakov Avinu died yet the meforshim state that "Yaakov Ovinu Lo Mes" -- so go figure, Judaism is a funny religion with all sorts of deep concepts and belifs that cannot be summarized on a blog. I don't understnad it, but I do not think it is bad, evil or forbidden. You must be a product of the Yeshivishe velt because from your comments it's clear that you don't have the foggiest idea about how TRUE Chasidim function and think, not just Lubavitchers (and you don't have to call them "Lubabs" because that is a derogatory term, and don't make excuses that they also call people names because two wrongs do not make a right) so don't be proud to show off just how clueless you obviously are about how Chasidim and Chasidis operates, functions and deals with the issues relating to the birth, life and death of its leaders and much more.

In blunt terms, the Rebbe rules Chabad from his grave (yes, it is somewhat like Breslov now, but not the same, yet see how strong Breslov is today and even thriving more than ever when Rav Nachman passed away in 1810 about 200 years ago!), and in his own lifetime the Rebbe himself went almost daily to the grave of his father-in-law (Chasidim are big into davening at the kivrei avos and there are good reasons for this. Even RYH went to the kever of the Maharal in later years and wrote about it) so the Rebbe went to daven at his father-in'laws ohel and he claimed that he derived his own mandate, koiches and eitzos from going to the ohel of his shver whom he considered the Nosi. Oh, and by the way, don't forget that small point that it's known that RYH of CB as he lay on his deathbed in a coma following his own stroke called out that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is "der tzadik Hador" -- but don't let all these little mystical notions start getting to you, you may have a crisis of faith if that happens.

"There would probably be other things I would like to discuss, but getting through the censoring process of Tzig&Co is not easy,if at all."

No doubt if your language will be curteous and your choice of wording polite and your manner non-abusive and non-insulting and you will try to be friendly and not act rudely then you would have no trouble getting your words posted and having decent rational discussions. But if you insist on insulting people, calling them "Lubabs" and a "gang" and whatnot so why the heck should they treat you like a mentsch when you are not extending that same curtesy to them?

Why do I even bother?

Friendly Anonymous said...

CBT, as to the LR not appointing a successor, my projection is that he dissaproved of a lot of the nonsense that was centered around him in the later years, and by not appointing a successor, the aspects in Lubavitch that are holy will exist forever, while he assured that the man-created narishkeiten died with him.

yosef said...

CBT
I don't have the time right now to go into your whole long response.Kindly, however can you back up the following:"Every Chasidic group has a strong belief that only its Rebbe is the Nosi of the Dor. Satmar felt that way about the first Satmar Ruv that he may be Mashiach and the Belzers today are convinced that the present Belzer Rebbe is probably the Moshiach too."

This is baseless nonsense that Lubab have put forth.Most chasidic groups follow their leader and don't speculate who the Messiah is.No other group believes that they have to "force" the world to accept their leader as such.


Importantly,to continue this discussion I need to know your opinion on Lubab claiming their Rebbe as THE CURRENT and I reiterate the current "Nosi hador"?
Not what they felt before the Rebbe was niftar.You should know that this title Nosi Hador appears on ALL official Lubab communications,not only the Meshichists.(Btw I think this title is a unique latter day Lubab innovation,I've never heard of it's use since the title Reish Galusa went into disuse more than a
millenium ago)
I did not get your answer.It was something like "it's none of your business what they want to believe"
A)If that is your response then intelligent conversations worldwide may as well stop mid-sentence.We cannot discuss anything that is not our own business?
B)Since the claim is that he is the current President of the Jews,being a Jew gives me the right to question it.I hope at least.

Lastly, by your own admission, you saw the Rebbe once(!)only after being shlepped their by relatives.What would that tell a person about what you thought of him when you could not bother to take the ten minute drive to see him?

Anonymous said...

Yosef
Reb Moshe Arye of Yerushlim said that his father the Hunyeder Rov said on Satmar rov that he his Moshiach when he was still in Ursheva, I saw lately a Satmar Kuntres of some Satmar chosid that he send to satmar rov a Mishloach monas cake proclaiming him as moshiach,
As a Yelid Belzer chasidim I can tell you that the last belzer rov was considered by Chasidim as Moshiach, they couldn't fathom no other tzadik as moshiach, heard it many time from my grand father with a Question that according to the Oir Hachaim Hakodosh Moshiach has to be from Eretz Yisroel,Your family never touch the inner klamka of chasidim.

Anonymous said...

Yosef
So the Lubabs made a chidush by calling nosi hador,
How many people are wearing Boots in the summer, so Skwere made a chidush.
Have you ever seen the Zohar brought down in Zohar on YATIR MIBECHAYOI? Yes Hasidim are into kabala and zohar from day one, by most they try be more baal baatish by diluting the mysticism, chabad is not ready to dilute yet the VERESCHE,

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

"yosef said...CBT I don't have the time right now to go into your whole long response.Kindly, however can you back up the following:"Every Chasidic group has a strong belief that only its Rebbe is the Nosi of the Dor. Satmar felt that way about the first Satmar Ruv that he may be Mashiach and the Belzers today are convinced that the present Belzer Rebbe is probably the Moshiach too."

Just take a look and read the response just below yours of Anonymous Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:51:00 PM who gives the answer that you need to this question. And again, you fail to grasp how Moshiach-oriented all of Chasidism has been since its advent by the Baal Shem Tov.

"This is baseless nonsense that Lubab have put forth.Most chasidic groups follow their leader and don't speculate who the Messiah is.No other group believes that they have to "force" the world to accept their leader as such."

Now you are jumping the gun. The discussion was not about what each group is doing. I am going along with you for now, but you do realize that with every post you are annoyingly moving the goal posts by not sticking to one subject but you jump from notion to notion like a rabbit hopping from pillar to post in order to score posts. Try not to do that ok, otherwise soon you will keep on globalizing the discussions and we will be discussing the differences between the Vilna Gaon and the Chasidim in Kabbala and why they are different, which will be way beyond me.

"Importantly,to continue this discussion I need to know your opinion on Lubab claiming their Rebbe as THE CURRENT and I reiterate the current "Nosi hador"?"

You know, I really don't mind discussing anything with you as long as it's in my range, but I am really bothered that you use the derogatory name "Lubab" in your posts. If you cannot talk politely like a mentsch to other posters with an ounce of decency on this blog then I will simply not respond. So it's your choice. From now on try saying the word Lubavictch or Chabad in full without resorting to demeaning nicknames that sound antisemitic, like if you were to call Jews "kikes" or "Yids" on this blog and still expect that people will continue debating with you as you can't even talk respectfully of the subject.

Likewise, if you will notice, all throughout this and the other posts about Rav Noach Weinberg I referred to him as he was belovedly called "Rav Noach" and I even avoided using an abbreviation like "RNW" because he was truly a big RAV. So maybe you could extend a little courtesy in that department to prove your good faith and that you are not just a hatched man out on the prowl to attack subjects mindlessly. Don;t insult a Rebbe or a movemenet needlessly, even though you may not like what they say you do not have to stoop to that level of pointless petty volatile verbal insults.

"Not what they felt before the Rebbe was niftar.You should know that this title Nosi Hador appears on ALL official Lubab communications,not only the Meshichists."

Ok, so I don't get the problem. Lubavitch now holds that the Rebbe is as great as, and is ruling them as much as, Breslovers feel that way about Rav Nachman who has been dead 199 years, while the Lubavitcher Rebbe is only dead for 15 years. So according to that you can come and complain in about 184 years if you think it won't work out and that it won't last.

That Lubavitchers want everyone to believe what they believe and are willing to try to convince the world, good for them. I am not going to stand in their way of trying, yet you seem to think they can and should be stopped. Just how do you propse you think it should be done. Everyone has already made their choice in the frum world, so the struggle is in the non-frum secular world. It's doubful Lubavitch or any one group will swing the world over to their way only given all the competition. So it's all very moot and what are you worried about that you feel you have to complain?

You don't have to believe them and neither do I. That they may think that people who don't believe or accept that the Rebbe is still the Nosi Hador or is the Moshiach are lacking and not fulifilled, that is their option. The world is still not ruled by any one religious group, so it is the Torah that gives us the freedom of choice to believe or not to believe things. So far. Lubavitch has not convinced me that the Rebbe is the Nosi Hador or that he was/is the one and only true Moshiach. The world is till in too much turmoil. When all the Gedolim in Klal Yisroel will support the Lubavitch ideas I will MAYBE go along with that, but this is all so hypothetical. Like discussing if there really is life on Mars. So what? I am part of the majority of frum Jews who think like this. Does that mean that I must look down on Lubavicth or insult them? Definitely not! They are Chasidim and Chasidus teaches great and wwonderful things to its Chassidim that I do not grasp and that is not part of my world, and it is surely not part of yours. I really do not get what is your problem. If it's not your cup of tea, stay away from the, and quit knocking your head on bricks walls.

"(Btw I think this title is a unique latter day Lubab innovation,I've never heard of it's use since the title Reish Galusa went into disuse more than a millenium ago)"

It's not true. The notion of RASHKEBEHAG ("rabban/rosh shel kol bnei hagolah) has been known and used for the greatest sage in each generation. It may be somewhat esoteric to the man in the street who has a hard enough time keeping up with the shamash or gabbai in his local shtiebel, let alone a mysterious RASHKEBEHAG out there in the world, but the notion exists. That Lubavitch calls such a one a Nosi or that Chasidim talk of THE Tzadik of every generation depends on each group's history and inner "shprach" but the concept has been around and it has not fallen into disuse.

On the contaray, there are good sources in Chazal that teach that Moshiach is to be found potentially in every generation, that there is ALWAYS one person, perhaps even more than one at times, who could well be the real Mashiach at any time in history, but this that he is not revealed and does not come is due to the sins of each generation keeping it back. As the RAMBAM codified it in his 13 ikarim, each and every Jew must believe in the coming of Mashiach EVERY DAY: From the ArtScroll siddur: "THE THIRTEEN PRINCIPLES OF FAITH: 12. I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he may delay, nevertheless I anticipate every day that he will come." So this is not made up by Lubavitch it is the belief of all Torah-true Judaism that believes in the coming of Moshiach EVERY DAY and if so there has to ALWAYS be at least one great righteous Jew who can fill that role and if Lubavitchers want to believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was and is that one so be it. He may have been or maybe not. I don't know! I am part of that school of thought among Jews that the story is not over and that the jury (good pun on Jewry, don't you think?) is still out and that it is still unknown who the real Moshiach was or will be. Even Rebbe Akiva made an error thinking that Bar Kochba was the Moshiach. This has been along and painful process throughout all of Jewish history as each generation prayed and yearned for the revelation of the true Moshiach may it happen speedily in our days.

"I did not get your answer.It was something like "it's none of your business what they want to believe"

Only because you do not seem to demonstrate an empathy to nor a knowledge of Chasidimm and Chasidism, you are using denigrating terms, you do not indicate a willingness or even a curiosity to learn, you are acting like a "know it all" so that on that basis the best thing may indeed be to tell tell you to mind your own business. But feel free to keep on yapping away.

"A)If that is your response then intelligent conversations worldwide may as well stop mid-sentence.We cannot discuss anything that is not our own business?"

Now you claim that you are interested in "intelligent conversations" -- very weird for someone who relies on using terms like "Lubabs" as he tries to prove that he is intelligent don't you think?

"B)Since the claim is that he is the current President of the Jews,being a Jew gives me the right to question it.I hope at least."

Come what? When did "I" say that "I" think that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is "the current President of the Jews" when I never said such a thing and I do not even subscribe to such a notion? You are entitled to your views and so are the Lubavitchers, that is what I think. But please do not start this silly and distracting game of twisting around and pulling out of shape and falsely proving things out of context when nothing like you allege has ever been said or intimated.

"Lastly, by your own admission, you saw the Rebbe once(!)only after being shlepped their by relatives."

So what? American writers are now saying that "honest Abe" Lincoln was the "greatest" US president and noone has ever seen him at all. Do I have to see RASHI to know he is a great Rishon? Do I have to do go to Israel and visit Rav Eliashic to belive and respect that he is the Gadol Hador? Come on now you are sounding idioitic. At least I saw the Lubavitcher Rebbe once with my own eyes. I am proud of that. My relatives did not "shlep me" I helped them get there and showed them the way and I had the benefit of getting more out of it too. RYH forbid his studnets from going to the Lubavitcher Rebbe. But that did not stop many of them for keeping up a direct connection. I had no connection in the first place to keep up. I also saw Rav Moshe Feinstein only once with my own eyes does that mean that I am somehow diminhsed or should be scolded or that I am incapable or stopped from thinking about his greatness or studying him or thinking about his contributions to Torah Jewry as the Gadol Hador of his time? I am totally puzzled by your immaturity in this instance.

"What would that tell a person about what you thought of him when you could not bother to take the ten minute drive to see him?"

Baruch Hashem there have been many great Rosh Yeshivas and Rebbes and Rabbis in my lifetime and even though I am respectful and a great supporter of many of them, it was never considered obligatory or a criterian to spend long times with them in person or in their shiurim or at their events and institutions to become one of their fans or to have an opinion about them. What are you hacking in kop? I have said I was not a Lubavitcher chosid or any kind of chosid and I generally do not attend tischen or farbrengens but I do love and admire Rebbes and Rosh Yeshivas and I follow their moves closely and I try to study them and learn from their ways either through people that I am with that have been with them and known them and by always trying to read and learn more about them and from them in seforim, books and articles. You are really getting petty now and it's showing. Ever heard of the phrase distant admirer? RYH claimed to be a "talmid" of teh GRA but he never met him as well as of the Chazon Ish but he never met him either. Simply because in Yiddishkeit time and geography and physical closeness do not always define the true relationships we may have with our Gedolim, Rebbes and Rabbis.

Did A Berkowitz make this all up? said...

has anybody brought up the fact the AB fabricated the entire "the snags drowned me in the mikva story" to besmirching R. Pinchas Goldschmidt. Maybe AB made up this story as well. I know him and would not be surprised.

Anonymous said...

I know him well he is not capable of fabrications

Did A Berkowitz make this all up? said...

"Anonymous said...

I know him well he is not capable of fabrications"

then you must know of the lie he made up about getting drowned in a mikva by Misnagdim. By the way, I'm Lubavitch, I just hate lies, and this story smacks of lies. Berkowitz makes up stories all the time..

o.torah grad said...

Did a Berkovitz,
I remember vaguely some story about a mikva.What happened and how do you know if it was fabricated?