Monday, February 16, 2009

Mad Cows


The Cows seemingly didn't like Friday's guest post about "Footsteps" very much. Many of them are involved with the program, some were trained there and others saw it as part of their holy work to help those who left the frum world integrate into the general society. So I "get" the horror they felt that they were somewhat compared to Hamas and Al-Qaeda, and why they used that as their title to the post. That being said the only plausible and/or intelligent comment made there was a link to a Youtube clip where Hodel explains to her father Tevye why she wants to marry the Sheigetz and leave her family forever, despite the pain and suffering it will cause them. (Not that things like really happened in real life either, most intermarrying didn't take place in backwoods towns like Anatevka, it happened in Berlin, Vienna and Budapest. Maybe I should become a consultant to the Movie Industry, showing them how to dress the actors and how to properly portray them to the rest of the world, then I wouldn't have to shlep to work every day...)

Back to the show... What many of you don't know is that the author of the post - who wishes to remain anonymous - is one who VERY much understands where kids like the ones who enter footsteps come from. He's not the typical judgmental type and is not trying to "bring them all back." He very much understands young people, deals with them and their problems, realizes that it's often not just them throwing off the yoke of heaven because they wanna have a good time with no rules. His house is an open one, literally, one where any person can find warm, understanding people to listen and help and to feed their hungry tummies. So before you "enlightened" cows hoot and holler about us frummies still living in the dark ages and being some kind of religious cult try and direct those harsh words to someplace where they'll actually stick. Another point is the fact that I don't believe Ms. Schwartz ever claimed to have ever been the victim of misconduct at the hands of family or educators. With her it's what often happens to children of Baalei Tshuvah; they meet their grandparents and get sucked in to the free and open lifestyle that their close family enjoys. Then we can discuss the fact that often only kids from very Chassidishe backgrounds have the language barrier issues, but we'll leave that for another time.

35 comments:

fakewood inc. said...

why bother with those morons. let them all melt their brains smoking crack and doing acid.

fakewood is a snag said...

Fake,
I feel the love!The classical "ahavas yisroel" that the Lubab have.For themselves.(and anybody they can use to gain $$$ and power)

fakewood inc. said...

what are you going on about?

schneur said...

I can hardly claim expertise on people dropping out of Charedi lifestyle especially those whose chief new interest is drugs, easy money and fun.. But many of those I have met who dropped or were on the verge were completely unaware that there was a middle ground.
You could daven mincha, learn Gemora observe Shabbes and yet look like an American. You could go to minyan daily and get a college education and go to work in a middle class American setting. You could be Observant and be pro Israel and stop being schisophrenic about Israel, Zionism and the Jewish state.
This derech being Torah Im Derech Eretz, Modern or centrist orthodoxy
Perhaps these people should be exposed to the works of rabbi Hirsch, of rabbi Soloveitchik, th books of Rabbi meir Kahane, the talks of Avi Weiss, and Esther JUngreis.
Many chassidic young people went to listen to Rabbi Miller its a shame that MO Orthodoxy does not sponsor some sort of legit forum for debate and talk about Religious Zionism, Hirschian thought etc for those tired of Th Charedi world. Not amissionary group just exposure to lt them know there is a choice.

fakewood inc. said...

a hundred percent that is exactly whats needed for those kids. i work very closely with kids that dont conform to the system and i think that would be a great idea.

chaya said...

Fake,
"i work very closely with kids that dont conform to the system "
You "work" with those kids.Lol.You are such a good example for why kids are better going off than remaining in a world where obnoxious, arrogant and self righteous types like yourself abound.
Yuck.
Get yourself a job and stop preaching!

fakewood inc. said...

i actually have a job and volunteer at night to help in a school. ohh and everyone is self righteous. i am just willing to admit it. your attempt to belittle my opinion sound like something that that a 5 year old would do.

Arthur said...

"I feel the love!The classical "ahavas yisroel" that the Lubab have.For themselves.(and anybody they can use to gain $$$ and power)".
Oh well here we go again.Another chapter in, as Mottle put it so succinctly,"The Protocols Of the Elders Of 770".
The haters have developed a remarkable "talent" to turn every post,no matter how irrelevant to Chabad into a bash the "Lubab entity" fest.How typical.

Anonymous said...

What do you think of this Shiur? I warn you his is flippant of all of Yiddishkite .What do you think is he right?
Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer: Insights Into Chabad Lubavitch
http://www.torahanytime.com/scripts/media.php?file=media/Rabbi/Yosef_Gavriel_Bechhofer/2008-09-28/Insights_Into_Chabad_Lubavitch/Rabbi__Yosef_Gavriel_Bechhofer__Insights_Into_Chabad_Lubavitch__2008-09-28.wmv

Arthur said...

"I feel the love!The classical "ahavas yisroel" that the Lubab have.For themselves.(and anybody they can use to gain $$$ and power)".
Well here we go again.Another chapter in,as someone termed it so succinctly,"The Protocols Of The Elders Of 770".
It seems that the haters have developed a "remakable" talent to turn every post, no matter how irrelevant to Chabad,into a bash the "Lubabs" fest.Cest lavie

Friendly Anonymous said...

Schneur, the problem is not that these children have not been taught to love learning Torah (in which case, you can start teaching them now).

Rather, the problem is that their upbringing has taught them to hate learning Torah.

seen it all said...

"With her it's what often happens to children of Baalei Tshuvah; they meet their grandparents and get sucked in to the free and open lifestyle that their close family enjoys."

Bubbe maises. Dropouts come in every flavor and taste, and I see them day after day in my work. BT's, Gezah, Yeshivish, Peiyos, Chareidi, MO's, etc. There is a mabul out there, and it does not discriminate based on lineage, nusach, beard, yarmulka type, etc. To keep your kids in line, clean up your house (tv, unfettered access to the net, loshon horah @ the shabbos table, parents wasting time [like me right now], mothers dressing like streetwalkers, etc) and say some tehillim with tears. This might help, but nothing is guaranteed.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I don't deny that it happens to all types, it's just that in HER case the appeal was very close by. In her home I doubt she had the problems you list.

chaimshmeel said...

Anonymous said...

What do you think of this Shiur? I warn you his is flippant of all of Yiddishkite .What do you think is he right?
Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer: Insights Into Chabad Lubavitch
http://www.torahanytime.com/scripts/media.php?file=media/Rabbi/Yosef_Gavriel_Bechhofer/2008-09-28/Insights_Into_Chabad_Lubavitch/Rabbi__Yosef_Gavriel_Bechhofer__Insights_Into_Chabad_Lubavitc
---------------------------------

This shiur is simply stupid. Instead of sourcing classical Chabad text like Tanya to analyze, he focuses on things like a private letter not even by a Rebbe. Not to mention that he parrots a litany of unsupported assertions...
Not what I'd expect from YGB- he usually sounds much smarter than this.

Anonymous said...

Fake, the problem is that the program you describe cannot be taught by someone who "works" with them. It has to be seen to be believed. I will tell you one thing that would work for some people. Teach RaMCHaL, yesodei torah, and Horeb but don't have a book in front of you and pretend it's just you shooting your mouth off. I hit on this when I was talking to a friend who is completely opposed to the sight of sfarim. Two weeks later his father tells me he's learning gmara now.

fakewood inc. said...

ye sure because he didnt learn gemara before because he didnt belive in it.

Anonymous said...

Der tzig can you adress the shiur?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I listened to the whole shiur. Half the time he doesn't know what he's talking about, and half the time he's talking about which Chassidesen do what...

Anonymous said...

Can you point out the times he does not Know what he is Talking about exact quotes and the like as you realize thousands of people will see the shiur and they believe him so a real Lubavitcher addressing them is the only thing to counter it.

Anonymous said...

Scneur,
These kids are Avda Bhefkairo Nicha Leie, 99% of them don't have philosophical problems.
Soloveichik and Hirsch are not a panacea for this symptom,Plus the YU system has a bigger dropout percentage then this Brooklyn kids, Look in the Commentator of this month , on the Illiteracy rate that you have in these schools, Kids of Bar Mitzva age don't know basic Chumash

Anonymous said...

Fake, there are two kinds of people who go off the derech. There are the acher apikorsim and the elazar ben duda'a apikorsim. This guy was of the former variety otherwise, why would a stam conversation over some pizza lead to debates on the epistemological nature of ontology? I wasn't trying to be mekarev anyone. This is just what he -- and to a lesser extent I -- talk about.

fakewood inc. said...

so why not just say showing some positive attention and bonding with the kid will help him tremendously.

Fred said...

"Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer: Insights Into Chabad Lubavitch"

Up the block .. go get him to ingest the Vodka and Salami with you Tzig.
You are so not what he describes Chabad as that he might actually do Teshuvah.

Fred said...

did u invite im?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I did. I'm still waiting.

YGB said...

1. I feel deeply honored by the attention.

2. It is not particularly intellectually honest to just simply assert that someone does not know what they are talking about without demonstrating as much.

3. R' HT, to the best of my knowledge we have never met (although we may have been at the TT mikveh some Friday afternoon at the same time, I don't recall you introducing yourself).

4. The letter that I cite extensively was given to me by chavrusa at the time in Yeshivas Brisk, Chicago, Rabbi Eli Turen, who vouched for its veracity.

KT,
YGB

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Reb YGB, welcome!

now I'm embarassed...

I wasn't necessarily referring to the comments about Chabad. I believe Turin - despite his radical views on Moshiach etc. - to be quite knowledgeable in matters pertaining to Chabad. It's more the other topics discussed there.

I'll make the time for it now that you ask.

I know we crossed paths in Pathmark late one Friday afternoon, where I realize that you take nothing lightly, not even food shopping. You seemed very serious while performing that task as well. I thought of saying hello and introducing myself, but in the end my shy Boro Park persona won that battle.

Might I say that I WAS fascinated by the talk we referenced here and watched the whole thing. No small task for me.

I thank you for not taking the jabs at you to heart.

Might I say that you're a dead ringer for your cousin Gershon S....

:-)

YGB said...

To be compared to my esteemed cousin in any way is a very big compliment, thank you very much.

Schochet scions are known for many things, some positive and some negative, but above all else, for red beards...

KT,
YGB

lost in CA said...

YGB, I'm a talmid of your uncle (when he gets on my nerves, i threaten him that i'll be mefarsem it), so I picked up some his schochet shtick of analyzing everything in black and white and getting a--l about minutae. I won't do it to u though, since u seem to be an ok guy who doesn't take himself too seriously.

In your analysis of various chassidishe groups, you use zionism as the barometer of extreme to moderation. A classical mistake made by many. If u look at world view of ger vs. satmar, ger is far more extreme in their approach. Have u ever seen a gerrer chossid walking with his wife r"l? Their outlook on family relationships, yachas to other Jews and frummies in particular is more narrow minded than satmar. Don't be fooled by their not throwing stones. About zionism, no frummies like pure zionism. The issue is how we deal with it as it does exist. It's really more political than halachik based, so it is a weak barometer.
I've got alot more comments on your shiur, but don't have the time now to go thru it.
Post an email address, and we can discuss this further. BTW, ET is a close friend (hagam he's nuts)

lost in CA said...

One more point:
Cousin GS is much thinner. Learn from him (unless this pic of u is way off)

Anonymous said...

Since this thread has gone OT & has become about someone's shiur & meeting in Pathmark yadayada (yawn...) - it may be unbecoming to interefe on this interference by amazingly getting back on topic - namely: this quarrel between the Dakoys (Hirsh the Goat) & Gasoys (7FatCow) - but I'll try:

As someone who knows both the Footsteps crowd & the 7fatcow oylem well, & can vouchsafe that conflating the 2 is like conflating Satmer & Lubavitch - or, the Bundistn & the Poyaley Tzioyn, for that matter. While from the "outside" (really ghettoized inside...) it may seem like 1 big monolithic dropout migration - to those who KNOW these chevereh (not just talking out of their ***** while fantasizing in their recliners on 14th Ave.) know that the differences between them are kirchoyk mizrach mimayrov (to use some hyperbole).

One can say, that a main difference between Footsteps & 7fatcow-Cholenters is like the chiluk between heresy (the former) & blasphemy (the latter), vd"l.

From the scores of those I know from both, I can attest that I know of only 2 individuals who are associated with both, & even so, with Cholent-7FatCow more than with Footsteps.

In fact, quite a few of the Ki do not look favorably upon the Fistrep. Just look at the latest 7FatCow post ( http://7fatcow.com/2009/02/19/is-this-what-footsteps-wants-us-to-become/ ). For Footsteppers are perceived as being naive, nerdy, sober misnagdic, kindergarden-sellouts-to-society etc. types - whereas Cholenters are viewed as loosers, filthy, tripping chasidic, spinning-wheels-stuck-in-the-mud hypocrite types.

Moreover, lumping these 2 groups with the typical "dropout" stereotype is further misrepresentation & indicates to the ignorance of those who do. We are not dealing here with the classic "yeshiva bums" syndrome that is well known to those who went throughout the years (even back to the '40s) to Torah VoDaas or Chaim Berlin or even Tomchei Temimim Lubavitch (ULY) or Torah Veyireh (UTA) for that matter. These 2 new breeds are not "dropouts" with all the de- facto via-negativa connotations. Rather, in the case of Footsteps they are "dropins" into normal mainstream society ("nihyeh k'echod hagoyim") - & in the case of Cholent-7FatCow,, they are "in-&-out" bibas achas ("poyseyach al shtey haseifim"). If you don't understand this chiluk, I advise you to open up a Rambam to Hilchos Mumrim & Hilchos Teshuvah (ch. 5 I think where he classifies apikorsus) & the noysey keylim. It is more complex then mere Mumar liTeovoyn & Mumar liHachis.

Most of the comments about this are not even worth responding to, for they show the obvious am horatzus & condescention of the writer - oh! opening up RaMChal or Chorev or becoming an MO urologist at Mount Sinai is the solution. Call it the Zev Brenner Solution. [- By this very comment these writers imply that there is acceptable diversity - which only they are to decide for others what the limits are - which leads to a point I'll soon make below.]

The only ones that made some half passable points were, of course der Tzig aleyn, by making the worthy distinction between the "farlorene" of BT homes & of geborene shtiber - & "seen it all said," who is mature enough to point out that the so-called dropouts come in all flavors & tastes. To which I'll comment, that, verily, just like "eyn doyseyhem shovoys," so too "eyn apokurseyhem shovoys." & if this is the case, just as you accept that there is a variety of "cases," so too accept the fact that there is a variety of eteologies & of individual life-perspectives that draw/lead the given "oysvorf" to his/her destiny. For you, the most extreme liberality is to get a medical degree & wear a kipah serugah; for Mendel-turned-Mark, it is learning the Greek classics or even Hasidism in an Ivy League un a kapel.

I agree (& I think that this point has been made awhile back) that most of the so-called dropouts do not fit the league of Achad HaAm or Michah Yoysef Berdichevsky. Not even Label Schneerson (the Rebbe RaMaSh's younger brother). But guess what, neither did most then. There is a sizable group of these farklerter that are already filling the lecture halls of Brooklyn College & Columbia University - no, not those Coney Island Ave. pool room bars, or Bisele. Quite a few are also pursuing the creative path, whether in painting, music, film, fashion, literature, theater - you name it. Of course there are levels of ambition, talent & success - but so there is in the world over. The point is that here you have a mass of inspired talented (some more actual than others) yunge kep un hertz who have made the desicion to carve their own path - together - in a way they feel works best for them.

Even when it comes to lernen, quite a few of these, especially the Cows, can put any Tzig in his place. A primary case in point is the late Yoynoson Abrham, aka Reb Johnny, A"H, who no one I know, surely not on this blog ken kumen tzu zayne linke piyate. - For a good antidote to the purile YGB shiur linked above, see the series of shiurim given by Reb Johnny year-2 ago in the East VIllage at - guess where?: Cholent. www.RebJohnny.com (In fact, Johnny was a, if not the, founding member of Cholent, from when it was still in Borough Park.) - & this was to a fremde oylem. You should hear his gemoroh shiurim on sugyes in Bobo Kamo & Metzioh, which went on for years, for entire nights, un hot zich gevorfn ktzoysn & nesivoys - all the way down to contemporary Beni Brak Povorsky & Beis haTalmud Malin (&, untern tish, even Gedaliya Nadel). All to which he would give noyfach midiley. But above all was his koyach hahasbore & PASSION of learning. Ritcho deoyrayse MAMESH.

& this is in addition to the countless machberesn of chidushim he left over, some of which have already been printed.

- & do you know how he was nifter this year Moytzoey Simchas Toyreh in middle of the night? At an open gemoroh masechte Bobo Metziyeh, learning. The next morning they found his body in the shtibl he snuck into to learn during the night, slumped over - you know what sugyeh? "Tokfoy Kohen"! (He was a Kohen & had a heart attack!) - An emese mayseh. How many of today's so-called Gedoylim can claim such devotion to Toyreh???? As we used to say: "Unzere ziburiyes iz beser fun zeyere idis"....

& this is just one individual of the so-called "dropouts."

So to all those lame castigators I leave with a final word of advise: Do not judge until you KNOW.

Veidoch Peyrushoy....


PS: To HIrsh Tzig: I googled "circus tent guest post" - guess what? there was only 1 match: the "Hollow Footsteps" post.

Since when do you post guest posts??? WHy did you decide to do it now??? Why not disclose who wrote it??? Can't you see why the Cows would be chowing you down now & mooing at you???? You stink from obvious bias - & hiding behind the "It's not me" excuse (even if true) is pathetic. More transparency is in order, especially if you want to milk (no pun intended) your readership to make this blog joint a more profitable venture.

Va'ayasem b'voyv.

- Z.I.Y.

Joseph said...

>a hundred percent that is exactly whats needed for those kids. i work very closely with kids that dont conform to the system and i think that would be a great idea.<

fakewood: I pity the poor kids. At best, it's the blind leading the blind. At worst, it's mamesh child abuse.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8;11-
What exactly is Hirshels sin? I am not getting it,
I knew Johnny from years ago and where can I see his printed chidushim, Johnny changed his views Al Apom V'aal Chamosom from the Hefker Yingen they were very disappointed when Johnny started to put on Tefilin again. But why are we so Tzuktatst he wasn't the first Valoiszhiner Ilu that went off the derech.

Anonymous said...

>>The haters have developed a remarkable "talent" to turn every post,no matter how irrelevant to Chabad into a bash the "Lubab entity" fest.How typical.

This is coming from someone who wrote that Rav Shach is worse than Hitler and refused to recant it!

Mayshe said...

Just imagine: What would R' Ahron of Belz or the Ribnitzer have said abotu this shiur! What would the Admor of Pruzhan-Stutchin say about this shiur!

Gevalt!!!