Wednesday, February 11, 2009

Aishfest

I'm listening to the Hespedim at Aish

All I can say is "wow!"

Highlights:

Now is the time to decide that I'm going to give him (RNW) Nachas... (Rabbi Noach Orlowek, RY at Torah Ore)

The Rosh Yeshivah was the Godol HaDor in Mesiras Nefesh (Rabbi Yitzchok Coopersmith)

"He told us that in our generation Moshiach will come." (a son)

They seem to be in love with the word "responsible."

The kicker was the kaddish at the end. The Kaddish without the VeYatzmach Purkoney. The Slonimer Zeide must be crying for his farlorene eyniklach who totally ignore their heritage for a bissel koved. But for them it's ok, I guess.

Again, I call attention to the fact that seem to be saying that HE was the only one who saw the need to do what he was doing. Not the Gedolei HaDor. Also, the carried away-ness, the grandiose statements, the Pesukim that are brought, they don't hold a candle to what the biggest Meshichist may say after a bottle of Mashke. Remember what I'm saying here.

69 comments:

stolin said...

Ok,
I went to the link you brought in your previous post a video of the hesped of his son.
Tzig, you are totally off on this one.Sorry.The posuk "ovi,ovi rechev yisroel" is standard by any hesped, especially on a father.The hesped was very short, no crying , no theatrics and quite a reasonable assessment of his fathers life.The only thing which could be seen as a bit of a stretch was the claim that in his early years in kolel he slept only three hours a day.That he danced in the Mirrer beis medrash when he found a terutz on a shvereh Ramba'm is so unbelievable?
That he was mekarev many, many people?
What is the "ketsakoso" here?
I'm afraid that either you haven't been to a heaped in many years so you've forgotten wjat it sounds like, or that you have an agenda.It's not the first time that you've said negative things about Aish, so the agenda motive would seem quite reasonable.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Actually you are on to something big here. Anyone who has heard Rav Noach talk over the years knows that he in fact used Chabad outreach and the model of the Chabad shluchim as the prototypes for what he held could be done and what he tried to do.

In other words, he carefully studied what Chabd was doing and then step by methodical step basically plagiarized the whole Chabad modus operandi from keeping his talmidim apart from the regular yeshiva world, recruiting the best and brightest from the earliest stages of meeting them and endowing them with the one goal of reaching out to Jews, the need to have a central larger than life figure at the core who would be idealized and idolized, training his cadre of outreach workers not to be ashamed to raise money and think big, not to be intimated by bigger talmidei chachomim types but to run a closed shop devoted only to Aish with a central command system that was answerable to and controlled only by him, simplifying the outreach message and being totally non-judgmental with new people, identifying the wealthiest and most prominent students be they in finance or show business, aim for top notch public relations, never give up and have lots of chutzpa if anyone challenges you from any direction. And other features.

But there is one huge difference between Aish and Chabad that the Aish people can never attain, a chasm that's impossible to bridge, and it's the obvious one, that while one can imitate and even overtake the chitzoniyus outward appearnces of the motions that Chabad does, it is impossible to attain the penimiyus deep internal spiritual life and basic unalterable mesora of Chasidic traditions and teachings, the neear-infinitely deep bedrock upon which Chabad-Lubavitch is built.

At the end of the day, Chabad is a pillar of the Chasidic world with a rich literature and heritage with seven Rebbes going back to the Ba'al HaTanya who also the mechaber of the Shulchan Oruch HaRav that are the two bedrocks of ALL Chasidus not just Lubavitch, while all that Aish stands on is gimmicks and seminars with no real content and because Aish is cut off from the larger Litvish yeshiva world (something it has done like a moat around an old castle to protect its wealth and few people inside from the outside yeshvish world) all it stands on really is feel-goodism, hot air slogans, and the silly teachings of the "48 Ways" (based on a short mishna in Pirkei Avos in kinyanei Torah) and concocted seminars that come right out of the motivational and cult world that has nothing to do with a real Torah-dikke heritage and certainly light years away from real Chasidus.

One may not agree with Chabad, and one may not aspire to learn Chitas and the Rebbe's ma'amorim, but one thing is for sure, Chabad has the relatively infinite goods when compared to Aish's plastic sweet-sounding nothings that lead nowhere except deeper into Rav Noach's vault. In brief, to newcomers, Chabad has the aura and feel of authenticity while Aish has the feel of a fake new invention that relies on the charisma of its young rabbis but nothing real is there once you scratch the surface.

That is why when comparing Aish rabbis to Chabad rabbis right away one struck how much sincere Yiddishkiet and heimishkeit a Chabad rabbi noramlly exudes in contrast to the almost immature androgymous salesman-like demeanour of a hyped up Aish rabbi who is always on the go looking for the next zillionare to turn into an Aish supporter, while at least Chabad can offer a mesora, a Chasidus, A VAST LITERATURE something that has hundreds of years of true Jewish history behind it, something that seems AUTHENTIC cmpared to Aish's modern ARTIFICIALITY via its seminars and dating games and trips to Israel.

So while Rav Noach may have taken close lessons from studying the outward derech of Chabad and how Chabad pulled off the success of sending shluchim all over the world and creating a movement from that, it was impossible for him to replicate the CONTENT and SOUL of Chabad and that is why Aish often looks and functions like a guf bli neshama (dare one say a "golem" compared to a true gadol?)

This is an important topic in age when kiruv rechokim is so much part of the modern frum agenda.

edelstein said...

Chaim Berlin,
Your argument that Chabad has a dimension that Aish does not have i.e Chasidic teachings would be equally relevant to people who are shomrei torah, but do not study Chassidus, no?
Even so the Orthodox world is split in two, with some going the Hasidic path and some going the non Hasidic was, which means that Aish is basically selling so to speak the non Hasidic path that talks spritually to many non Hasidic Jews.
So your talk of Aish not having "rich literature" sounds a bit flat.Is the non hasidic Torah not rich enough for many??
Btw, what did you find silly in the "48 ways" which you cynically call "based on a SHORT mishna" in ovos.That mishna is talking about the ways to acquire Torah, why is it "silly" to teach it?

I also don't know if Aish copied Chabad or not, but I do know that there is nothing wrong in "kinas sofrim" after all they are trying to do the same thing, spread the word of God.Chabad to it's credit will copy successful techniques of others.I think, though I'm not certain that Chabad.org one of the most visited sites has gotten ideas from the competition of Aish.com ,also very succesful and both sites are kept on their toes by watching the competition

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Chabad.org started in 1991
Aish.com in 1995

That's not to say they don't copy, just that they had a 4 year head start. I would imagine Weinberg got the idea from Chabad.org

edelstein said...

"I would imagine Weinberg got the idea from Chabad.org"
So?
I said that Chabad.org got IDEAS from Aish.com, not the actual thought of opening a website.
As I said before "kinas sofrim tarbeh chochma" we are,hopefully,all interested in furthering the honor of God and there are many paths to him, as long as they are "paths of the just"

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what's the meaning of the last line, "as long...."

is that a shtoch?

edelstein said...

Not a shtoch at all.I was paraphrasing "ubilvad sheyechaven liboi loshomayim" The path we take to Hashem is not important as long as it is a "just path"

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ok.

snag said...

"The kicker was the kaddish at the end. The Kaddish without the VeYatzmach Purkoney. The Slonimer Zeide must be crying for his farlorene eyniklach who totally ignore their heritage for a bissel koved."

Aish is not a Slonimer organization. Why don't you have a taaneh that Aish doesn't teach all the Slonimer dynasty seforim? He saw the light and became Litvish, like R. Groner at YRCB, vos iz shlecht?

You think a kaddish without viyatzmach iz possul? The Ashkenazic kaddish includes bakosho for yemos hamoshiach as well, though perhaps you and other Chassidim do not realize it.

It's also funny that you have a taaneh on him for not going in the exact way of his zeide when you are doing the same thing.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I'm talking about his sons, not the BTs in the school. They're the ones saying kaddish.

I have a tayneh because that "tayne" was voiced to me...

Only to me.

snag said...

What's the problem? They follow what Rav Mayshe Feinstein zt"l paskened, that a Chossid may switch to nusach Ashkenaz, since if you go back dayres (generations), that is really his ancestral nusach.

I do agree with you though, that if they do as Lubavitch by overexalting Rav Neyach z"l, as Lubavitchers did/do with the Rebbe, that that is problematic. However, from my distant vantage point and limited knowledge of Aish HaTayreh, I don't know how far they take it, and after all, others tend to do stuff that too, and when the wound is raw and people are in grief, sometimes the rhetoric gets overdone. But if it's too much over the top I am maskim, that is one thing they should not have done biderech Lubavitch (or others who go in that way).

SDR said...

"The kicker was the kaddish at the end. Before the heilige zeyde was another heilige zayde that said Kaddish with the v'yatzmach. RNY ZT"L just returned to his correct minhag.

volvie said...

"The kicker was the kaddish at the end. The Kaddish without the VeYatzmach Purkoney. The Slonimer Zeide must be crying for his farlorene eyniklach who totally ignore their heritage for a bissel koved."

Nusach Ashkenaz, the one dating back all the way to the Rishoinim,Rashi,Rabbeinu Tam etc and further codified in Sefer Maharil by the Maharils talmid and the basis of Rabeinu Haram'os minhogim did not include "veyatmach purkoneh" in kaddish.I'm not telling you or chasidim what to do, however, if we are going to go by your "tayneh" that the Weinbergs have "farsheymed" their zeideh, the same could be said about all chasidim.The small difference being that here they are going against RISHOINIM.
To each his own, but those who judge, deserve to be judged in tsoioh rotachas

Anonymous said...

Snag
Do yourself a favour and check the various hespeidim and you''ll see the Tzig has no case.

Friendly anonymous said...

Tzig, don't let the hyperbole disturb the digestion of your oats.

The more people overstate the niftar's tzidkus, the greater will be CBT's irritated rebuttal. The hesped itself contains the seeds of his downfall. (almost) everything in this world has a ze leumas ze.

Anonymous said...

The two things that irk Chabad the most; Aish.com and Artscroll, two groups that beat Chabad at their own game.Suck up to rich freie and present a work of excellence.They cannot fargin that.
The good news is, they have too little shaichus to Torah shebaal peh to really be aware of the Artscroll Gemaros.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Friendly

speak English! in layman's terms. PLEASE.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

funny you mention Artscroll, cuz they attacked it at the Hesped.

Don't believe the Artscroll biography, they said.

Anonymous said...

Friendly
I'm curious did you see or hear the hespeidim or are you just "talking"

And with all due respect to CBT,it seems that Rabbi Weinberg as well as many other CB'ers stepped on his toes.He has a maniacal hate for his Alma Mater

gedalya said...

"Don't believe the Artscroll biography, they said."

What has that got to do with point made??
The poster stated that these two organizations beat Chabad at their own game of sucking up to the non religous, with the caveat that they actually have done excellent work.
Apparently though, Chabad have again managed to get on to the good side of the Schtensteins and recently got a nice payback for an institution in Tzfas(? not sure where, saw it on a chabad site)

fakewood inc. said...

rabbi kazen was answering questions on boards and had correspondence via the internet in the late 80 already. so probably 6-7 years before aish. lubavitch had kiruv DECADES before aish.

kol demomo dako said...

Since R'Noach is close to kisei hakovod in front of the heavenly court right now and if as I think, the Tzig has caused him to be maligned....for no good reason,

I don't want to write the rest.....

fakewood inc. said...

actually if you read likutei diburim 100 years before aish.

fakewood inc. said...

But your Vitriol the Rebbe is ok.
i have so many expletives for you, witch i will not use in the same paragraph as the Rebbe.

shira said...

Fakewood,
What's your point exactly?
Chabad opened up long before Aish.Therefore, what? Rabbi Weinberg does not deserve credit for bringing many people to Judaism?
Can you Lubavitcher overcome your hate at least during the first few days of a persons passing.What is wrong with you guys?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

shira

we're not hating, just clarifying.

What bothers us is that they deny Chabad's accomplishments completely, as if they don't exist!

fakewood inc. said...

not when its the head of an organizations that dedicates time and resources to bash lubavitch. i truly hope the aibishter forgives him for creating an organization that bashesand is motzi shem ra on so many ehrilche yidden. thats the point. i am not politically correct if i think someone does something wrong i will speak about it.

thats one of the things i respect about him he wasnt embarresed to speak his mind when he thought something was wrong.

shira said...

Who are the "they"?
Let the family mourn in peace.

Anonymous said...

Dont beleive which Artscroll bio. did they say, Hirshel? Please explain.

fakewood inc. said...

tzig they do more than that.

yehupitz said...

"The Slonimer Zeide must be crying for his farlorene eyniklach who totally ignore their heritage for a bissel koved. But for them it's ok, I guess."

I find that line disgusting.
Reb Noach and his older brother left behind the Chassidishe Derech a long long time ago, in their teens. Reb Yaakov W. abandoned Chassidus b'shitta, after his own drisha and chakira. Reb Noach most likely followed his older brother, since their father was niftar when R Noach was only a teenager. But "for a bissel kovod"???! Not nice.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

"edelstein said...Chaim Berlin,
Your argument that Chabad has a dimension that Aish does not have i.e Chasidic teachings would be equally relevant to people who are shomrei torah, but do not study Chassidus, no?

No. Actually. You are falsely equating Aish rabbis with other frum people which is not so. The average frum person is not an outreach rabbi or worker. The average frum Jew has gone to either yeshiva or if female to bais yaakov, and they got a totally enriched education their be it Chasidic or Misnagdic, Sefardic or Modern Orthodox (that is when MO's attend Orthodox day schools only.) So you make a mistake of beoth logic and reality by bringing in another factor altogether because that other factor has a heritage as deep as Chabad's and they etherefore do not need to have a Chabd base to be frum Jews.

But when it comes to what Chabd has to offre secular Jews versus what what Aish has to offer secular Jews to whom they are doing outreach, is that Chabd can offer the rich heritage of it's Chasidis teachings, be it in mysticism/Tanya or Jewish Law/Rav's Shulchan Oruch or in hashkofa/sichos, while Aish cannot match that and instead uses a medley of carefully crafted seminars, pep talks and trips to here there and everywhere to win over devotess that are not based on deep contents but rely on calculated marketing and PSYCHOLOGICAL techniques of brainwashing.

"Even so the Orthodox world is split in two, with some going the Hasidic path and some going the non Hasidic was,"

Pardon, but the Orthodox world is split in much more than two ways, Hasidism alone is divided into many paths, then the Yeshivishe world has more and less haredi elements to it, there is Modern Orthodoxy that is huge in America, and there is Religious Zionism that is huge in Israel, and of course there are the Sefardim that are divided into many ways. So you are looking at many paths connected to Hakadosh Baruch Hu.

"which means that Aish is basically selling so to speak the non Hasidic path that talks spritually to many non Hasidic Jews."

This is so patently false its' actually a joke. it is the cover-up talk that Aish tells people when they are questioned, but Aish is actually in conflict with the mainstream yeshivishe world with which it has littel in common. In fact Aish gets attacked for acting more like a Zionist organization than a yeshiva and its outreach contents for its seminars and pep talks would get a yeshiva boy expelled if he were to say it over in his regular yeshiva it's so X-rated a lot of the time by yeshivish world standards.

"So your talk of Aish not having "rich literature" sounds a bit flat."

Really now? You make up your own scenario and then claim that I am "flat" -- but Aish only has an organization without any real mesora. It takes what it pleases from whatever source. pop psychology and self-help seminars being the main source. There is no great inttelectual outpouring at Aish and they don't care either, theuy are focused on recruitment and fundraising. What happens next is anyone's guess because usually Aish doesn't have a clue.

"Is the non hasidic Torah not rich enough for many??"

Umm, what "no hasidic Torah" would that be? Care to elaborate. And don't say "Talmud" -- everyone knows it's the main subject in any yeshiva.

"Btw, what did you find silly in the "48 ways"

On tape it sounds like mostly comedy with Rav Noach coming across like Jackie Mason (or better actually, first rate theater). Good laughs. That's about it.

"which you cynically call "based on a SHORT mishna" in ovos."

Well, is it very long?

"That mishna is talking about the ways to acquire Torah,"

Agreed. And so it is.

"why is it "silly" to teach it?"

It's not silly to teach it, but it is silly to make it into a 48 tapes comedy show and turning it into some kind of slogan and method to get religious (like Kabbalah Center selling the tapes its founder full of miracle ways to sell their product), which was not the intent of the one who wrote the mishna 2000 years ago.

"I also don't know if Aish copied Chabad or not,"

If you were around Rav Noach over the years you heard him talk about learning lessons from Chabad and Chabad shluchim.

"but I do know that there is nothing wrong in "kinas sofrim" after all they are trying to do the same thing, spread the word of God.Chabad to it's credit will copy successful techniques of others."

Agreed.

"I think, though I'm not certain that Chabad.org one of the most visited sites has gotten ideas from the competition of Aish.com ,also very succesful and both sites are kept on their toes by watching the competition"

Ok.

Anonymous said...

Face it, Lubos are a cult. They don't marry anyone else, no one marries them. They went completely off the derech after the 5th rebbe. They do good work, but it's not for the sake of Hashem, its for the sake of the rebbe. They can't even replace their rebbe with a new rebbe, yiftach bedoro ke'shmuel be'doro, find a new rebbe already, move on, and stop deifying the friedike rebbe already.

And by the way, most of you lubob's need a good philshave! You pasken al pi kabolah, its about time you followed the shulchan oruch.

seen it all said...

Tzig, WADR this is so juvenile. aish will be aish, for better or for worse. I know many feine sincere BT's who started at aish, and then moved on to more sincere, serious avoidas hashem, be it Chabad, Mir, Lkwd, Breslov, etc. OTOH, aish has many chesoros with their approach and I'm surprised you didn't mention the biggest one.
Many people get introed to yiddishkeit at aish, and leave it with a total hatred for anything that smacks of Torah and orthodoxy. Every outreach group has people that try it for 3-6 months and then decide it is not for them. Unfortuantely, aish dropouts are far more antagonistic to true Judaism than any other groups, including Chabad, Breslov, Lincoln square etc.
Again, this does not diminish RNW's accomplishments, but an honest discussion of aish and its impact must include this.

fakewood inc. said...

anonymous at 6;50 you are just spewing. lubavitch marries other people i can personally think of 3 cases this is so with out much thought.

Anonymous said...

It seems R Noach may not be liked mishnei hatztadim since if memory serves correct R Shach had no great love for aish and their mihalech and i seem to remember R Elya Svei speaking publicly against their tactics as well.

Anonymous said...

Seen it all is 100% right. My friends and I went through Aish, and most of us are so disillusioned with the process, not to mention poorer for the experience, I doubt any of us would ever go near Yiddishkeit again, which is really a shame, since in this day and age, we could use all the spiritual sustenance we can get!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what turned you off so?

Anonymous said...

anon;
Where exactly do you see Chabad pasken al pi kabola? Di ferd do you know the Gra writes in Mishli that you have to learn kabala?

Anonymous said...

SDR,
The karaites also go back to the sheroshim,

Anonymous said...

Yehupitz
This that 2 shmoger einiklech of the Yesod Havode that was a goan benigleh ubenistar decided as teens to reject beshita their Ziedes derech will not stop him from crying,Reb Moshe Midner has powrfull quotes of the Yesod hoavode"LOVE" for misnagdim

Anonymous said...

Volvie
FYI,the Rambam in his nusach hatfila says Veyatzmach Pirkonai, Dont get so excited about Rishonim etc.. the Rambam I think is also considered a rishon

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The point is not which Rishonim they follow etc. It's that people like me are criticized for "leaving the derech of their forefathers," while people like him are cheered for it. Even if their ancestors were Tzaddikei Oylam!

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
Yidishkiet transformed constantly, look into Shroshei Minhogei Ashkenaz of Hamburger that the Ramo changed in poland many halochas from the original ashkenaz,The yeshiva world is total a new fabrication of minhogim the Gro was anti minhogei ashkenaz, he oficialy didnt use the shulchan oruch as the bottom line for pesak, and even told his great talmid Reb Chaim Valoizhiner to follow him in his footsteps. Its only when you become Chabad then all the hatemongers get out of the woodworks. For instance look at the yekkishe kehila in Wash Heights that is in the stage of endangered species, they all became yeshiveish or MO. Nobody will ever approach a young boy in Lakewood how come you changed your derech.

Anonymous said...

Well, I can, or at least should, only speak for myself. What turned me off was the incessant fundraising, the all-or-nothing approach that flies in the face of their purported mission statement, and their arrogant attitude that they, and only they, knew what was in their students' best interests, their students' thoughts on the matter notwithstanding. I actually liked the 48 ways program. I think it's quite a contribution. I also think their web site is excellent. But their afore-mentioned shortcomings are too much for their strengths to overcome, at least in my opinion. I certainly would be wary of getting involved with Orthodoxy again, as the experience overall left me feeling used and exploited, as if they view me as a potential donor more than as a fellow Jew, but hey, it's just one guy's opinion, Take ot for what it's worth...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

But did you really think that Aish had the monopoly on Orthodoxy? why not choose another derech?

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
I recall that years ago the Rosh of LA wrote a geonish teshuva in kovetz Migdal Oiz against Reb Moshe about changing the minhogim from ashkenaz to sefard and vice versa, I cant locate it right now.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
Whoms son is the guy that wrote Mainframe? they say he is very talented

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I don't get the question (anon 11:37)

Anonymous said...

one of the Weinberg brothers have ason that wrote a book Mainframe super sophisticated on Berieshis

chaimshmeel said...

To the 'anonymous' moron who said:
And by the way, most of you lubob's need a good philshave! You pasken al pi kabolah, its about time you followed the shulchan oruch.
-----------------------------------
You mean the Chazon Ish paskened 'al pi kabolo' when he sais using an electric shaver is absolutely forbidden ? Or did you mean R' Ch. Kanievsky....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I don't know. I've never heard of it. A search on Amazon found nothing.

Crawling Axe said...

Chayim Berlin, well said.

The bottom line is: one brings people to Eibeshter, the other feeds nefesh ha’bahamis.

Anonymous said...

that son has a little following,

snag said...

"Anonymous said... Volvie
FYI,the Rambam in his nusach hatfila says Veyatzmach Pirkonai, Dont get so excited about Rishonim etc.. the Rambam I think is also considered a rishon"

Do you follow all the pesokim of the Rambam? Are you a Sephardi? Egyptian? Do they use nusach Rambam siddurim in 770?

"The yeshiva world is total a new fabrication of minhogim the Gro was anti minhogei ashkenaz"

Not true, evidently you didn't learn the sefer too well.

"Anonymous said... one of the Weinberg brothers have ason that wrote a book Mainframe super sophisticated on Berieshis'

You mean Frameworks, that is by a son of R. Neyach's brother, and a few volumes came out, not just on Bereishis.

mnuez said...

The funniest thing of all is that if you guys actually knew R' Noiach's REAL hashkafah you'd be more confused than you already are. In many many ways his hashkafa had so much in common with aspects of Lubavitch hashkafa that you wouldn't knew whether to hate him for not going all the way to Lubabness of love him for having precisely those hashkafas that always caused Rav Shach to hold him in such suspicion and to cause him tzuris every couple of years. But a serious discussion would be wasted on the tribalist fools who have been goading this thread. People like Tragedy who can't even quote his anonymous interlocutors accurately and people like tzig who (kvoidoi bimkoimoi munach) say with a straight face "the carried away-ness, the grandiose statements, the Pesukim that are brought, they don't hold a candle to what the biggest Meshichist may say after a bottle of Mashke." and you know that he really MEANS IT because he follows this off with his soif pasuk of, "Remember what I'm saying here." Funny stuff!

Yeah, so as fascinated as I am by Rav Noiach's unique hashkafa that has now been lost to the world (his "talmidim" for the most part either don't understand it or don't follow it) this is obviously no place to discuss it. A shame.

As for conflating Aish with R' Noach - that would seem to be a fair thing to do.. if you have no idea of how large organizations work.

When kids were getting crushed and trampled on in line to see the Rebbe (and you really have to have experienced it to know what I'm talking about) was that the Rebbe's fault? How about when TENS OF THOUSANDS of Lubavitchers believed b'emunah sheleimah that the Rebbe was moshiach and that he wouldn't/couldn't die. Was that too based on a decision of the Rebbe's? How about the masses of silly narishkeiten believed by most Lubavitchers that the Rebbe most clearly and patently DID NOT believe but never quite renounced because his focus was on trying to save klal yisroel and he therefore couldn't focus on all of the minutia of what his followers believed or said, does a rational (non-lubavitcher) believe that this too was all directed by the rebbe?

Eh - truth is I probably lost my entire audience by now. I've basically been writing this comment for academic Orthoprax types and there probably are none such reading this blog in any case, so THERE'S ten minutes I'll never get back.

Alrighty, a good day to all. In conclusion though let me say that though I can't stand all of this bashmutzing that's going on I love you all and hope that you play nice and learn to appreciate each other limata m'asarah tfuchim. zei gezunt. mnz

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

It was nice to have you here, Mnuez. Just one point: Chassidim had many generations on top of which they built their often silly notions. With Aish it had to be built from scratch. He did that. He made them believe the silliness they believed in. Unless it was another member of his staff, which I doubt.

harvey said...

Hirshel,
"He made them believe the silliness they believed in"
What do you mean by "silliness"?I've heard and seen the hespeidim, if that'sd what you mean and I don't see the sillines? Every hesped allows for some exxageration, but that's it.
Again I think you (or your handlers)have an axe to grind with the competition.As I see it, if people don't allow a family and followers to mourn their nifter in peace it's a strike against those people.In fact the idea of badmouthing someone while the family is sitting shiva is evil.Enough with this garbage allready, for the sake of the way people will look on Lubavitch, picking like vultures at a corpse, for the sake of your own neshomo.Last but not least, would you like that people "mourn" you leachar arichus yomim, the way you have "mourned" Rabbi Weinberg, letting out and being the board for the most vicious and cynical baaley loshon hora.Genug schoin!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ok, Harvey. No more.

fakewood inc. said...

Mnuez- the rebbe was aware of most if not all of those issues that you brought up and spoke about them at farbrengens.

Anonymous said...

Mnuez,
Believing that the Rebbe was Moshiach was a legitimate and natural beleif as the Chasam Sofer writes many times that in every genaration there is a tzadik ready to be Moshiach. I remember hearing from a real ungarischer Rov and Marbitz torah that his family was probably ten times Talmidie chasam Sofer and Kesav sofer that the talmidim held that the CS is the Moshiach of their genaration, especialy when the Lubavitcher Rebbe had big universal views, he looked like the candidate.

Anonymous said...

Tzig,
For me it's too late. I just don't have time to devote to another Jewish path and risk being left with nothing again. Even less than nothing if you consider all the donations I made to Aish. As far as Mnuez is concerned, I know how big organizations work, thank you very much. And I know that Aish started off as a small one. Heck, to read the hagiographia, it was just Reb Noach, a lonely voice crying out in the wilderness. It grew by his direction, and represented what he held dear. I read on Tu b'Shvat that we can learn about the tree from the fruits it bears. As such, these fruits were sweet on the surface, and always desperately searching for more water to continue their self-aggrandizement. Hopefully, the metaphors didn't go over your head.

Crawling Axe said...

Path, shmath. Devote to Eibeshter, not path. That’s the problem lehatchilo — devotion to a “path”.

Berel a nomin af der zeide said...

i read on some bochurs blog an interesting mashal that litvishe use these days to say that both they and chassidim are not like those of old who had real disagreements but now we mite as well just join in peace the mashal is about 2 filthy rich brothers who share everything and live together one day one brother is diagnosed with an ulcer and is told to only at milchigs the other a little later finds out hes lactose intolerant and can only eat fleish so they build to separat kitchens with separate staff etc. one day theier economic situation starts to sour so from meat he goes to chicken to finally only being able toafford potatoes with no staff the same with the other brother milchigs gets too expensive so hes alo only eating potatoes and with no staff so they decide y 2 kitchens lets just join together in the same kitchen

a wonderful moshul no?

but Reb Yoel said they have it wrong they dont realize perhaps its true we and them with their misnagdishe ways are watered downd and not really there any more but Chassidus became so wide spread that even they were actually affected by it they dont realize that their own misnagdish ways and hashkofos have been imbued and embodied by the spirit of chasidism

Crawling Axe said...

I think the point is that "you are closer to our zeides than to your own zeides, and your eineklach will be closer to us than to you; so, no, we ain't gonna compromise".

benjy said...

Berel,
What are you smokin'
How has Lubavitch had any impact on the frum, non Chabad world?
Your crazy meshichists with the yellow flags?
I'm also sorry to break the following to you, man:Go into almost any non Lubavitch Orthodox shul and try and find a Likutei Sichos.You won't.Not in at least 90% of the shuls.The only Lubavitch publications you''ll find are the Lubavitch pamphlets and torelach spread out just like the free newspapers with coupons that will eventually find their way in the gatbaGE can.
Sorry, to give you some facts

Anonymous said...

>>not when its the head of an organizations that dedicates time and resources to bash lubavitch. i truly hope the aibishter forgives him for creating an organization that bashesand is motzi shem ra on so many ehrilche yidden. thats the point. i am not politically correct if i think someone does something wrong i will speak about it.

So, is it wrong to say Rav Shach is worse than Hitler or that the CI is jealous of children learning Tanya, as well? Or is this just a one-way street?

Anonymous said...

See Rabbi Avremi Berkowitzes articl... Maybe publish bemeeloo'oy!

berel a nomin af der zeide said...

benjy said...
Berel,
What are you smokin'
How has Lubavitch had any impact on the frum, non Chabad world?
Your crazy meshichists with the yellow flags?
I'm also sorry to break the following to you, man:Go into almost any non Lubavitch Orthodox shul and try and find a Likutei Sichos.You won't.Not in at least 90% of the shuls.The only Lubavitch publications you''ll find are the Lubavitch pamphlets and torelach spread out just like the free newspapers with coupons that will eventually find their way in the gatbaGE can.
Sorry, to give you some facts





now, i dont want to accuse u but from your comment u sound like a major dim wit. because the entire point was that the velt was affected by Lubavitch and they dont even realize it:-)

but along the lines of not having habad seforim i suppose the reason is because the Rov of the shul/ shteibel wont allow it cuz thats where he pulls his speeches from -just a point to ponder

any who although im older than the Rebbes gezairah for smoking he did say that anything after 20 is bigeder bakash so who am i to not follow

nother point, almost all snags with chabad relatives will farentfer that my lubab cousins are different but all lubabs know that if we have snag cuzzins they are equal and the same as all other snags - baal gaivedik and hateful only looking to further there own agenda even at the risk of chopping someone else down at the knees (obviosly not physically)