Monday, July 13, 2009

Never trust a choosid....



Synopsis: Reb Gedalia Schorr was a talmid in Kletzk in the summer of '39. His family wanted him to come home to America. The American Consulate advised the same thing, citing imminent turmoil in the region, which came soon after. Young Gedalyohu wrote a letter to his Rosh Yeshivah, later of White Plains and Lakewood, and asked for his opinion - Daas Teyreh - on what to do. Should he stay and shteig in Kletzk or go back to the Toomene Amerike. The Rosh Yeshivah was away on vacation and the only way to reach him was by snail mail. The Rosh Yeshivah's reply arrived too late. Gedalyohu could not wait any longer and took the ship back home. He had sold all his furniture and he was afraid of what was in store for him, בתוך כלל ישראל. By the time the letter arrived he was relaxing port side on the Atlantic, probably enjoying the warm breezes with a Ketzos in hand. The story doesn't raise any eyebrows until the last few lines, where the son of RGS - not sure which one - makes a very strong statement; a statement that was APPARENTLY too strong for the editors here, and one which they needed to "water down" just a bit...

"In that difficult time of hester panim the One Above obscured the future gezeirah even from the vision of tzaddikim." So said the son, whom I assume is a very good Jew, just as good as the editors are. The editors added the word "Apparently," probably worried about an outcry of the righteous, screaming about the lack of Kavod HaTorah for Daas Torah and the Meyased Torah here in America. Or something like that. I find it very ironic that the Kletzker Rosh Yeshivah, who's Kavod is במקומו מונח, was given vision of tzaddikim by son of RGS, which is not something that even his talmidim would say that he had, yet that was good enough for the newspaper. This is not meant as a knock on RAK. I just don't get what the issue was here. Why the need to add that word, and what does it accomplish? There was no concept of Ruach HaKodesh amongst Litvishe Yidden at that time. I think that's safe to assume. The last one that was thought of that way was probably the Chofetz Chaim. The fact that most of the bachurim in Mir ignored the opinion of the faculty there speaks volumes about what they thought of daas torah, even with much older Rosh Yeshivos, and Tzaddikim such as the mashgiach Reb Chatzkel, who maybe some DID think had a veite kook.

[I'll go out on a limb here and say that RGS never asked him as a chossid would ask his Rebbe; and if he did it was only because he shtammed from chassidim. But he soon realized that this is no chassidishe Rebbe, so he packed his bags and left. OK, enough of my boych s'vores, back to the story.] The story in and of itself, I think, is not terrible. You don't think MISTAKE when you read it. You see more of an Hashgocha Protis that the letter arrived late, rather than a kashe on a Rosh Yeshiva "how could he be mistaken." The fact that they added those two lines shows that the son had his own doubts about the "veiter kook" of RAK, and shows that he's a shvache believer. I guess the editors could not take out the whole two lines, so they needed to add that one word. The point is never trust a chossid; even if he goes to learn in a pure Litvisher Yeshivah he never really believes all the way. He still doubts his RY, and he sure as Gehennom won't die just so he could listen to Daas Torah. If he thinks his life is in danger he's on the next boat home! Then again, the Mirrer Talmidim were mostly Litvaks and they high-tailed it out of there too... hmmm.... what happened to my whole binyan here?

On the other hand; maybe the writer put in that word, not the editors.....

130 comments:

Not Brisk said...

For the record:

R' Chatzkel didn't render an opinion about escape, because he had nigeyos-his daughter had foot problems and wanted to stay- she later found a specialist in Shangchay; but that's a story in itself. The bochurim spoke to her... (gasp)

The son, Avrum, I believe, has a photo of R' Ahron in his office. Go figure.

R' Ahron never got over the fact that he wasn't pro the Shangchay decsion.

He did have respondence with some of his talmidim in Siber; sent food stuff and words of chizuk. Alter Peker wrote some memoirs about it.

R' Kalmonovitz was working behind the scenes to save Yidden. The FR also benefited from it and sent him a letter thanking him for helping him come to America.

Maybe some of the more erudite readers can cite the Kehot publication where they print that letter.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why, why why?

why can't we stay on topic?! I know I mentioned RCL but that wasn't really the point!

Oh well. So's life.

This is not a personal attack against NotBrisk.

Avremele said...

I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to bring out here. What it basically says is, he went against his Rebbi's wish and returned to the US; just in time to help bring about his Rebbi's yeshua.

BTW, the overwhelming majority of Rabbonim, Roshei Yeshivos, and Rebbes, firmly believed that no harm would come upon Europian Jewry, and that the US was in greater danger.

RAK wrote that in a letter to RGS, in which he strongly advised him to remain. He even wrote in the letter that, if your already sold your furniture the buyer will sell it back to you.

Not Brisk said...

My greeneh glezer

FYI,

Hamodia wrote articles about Daas Torah around purim time and adressed the whole Holocaust issue.

Dr. King said...

What is this world comming to!!

You guys are more concerned with 'where was Daas Torah in the Holocaust' than the more obvious question!!!!!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

who is "you guys?"

and what is the more obvious question, in your very humble opinion?

Avremele said...

Sorry if I repeated what it says in the article. There was no reason for me to read it.

(the real) Kalmen said...

"He still doubts his RY, and he sure as Gehennom won't die just so he could listen to Daas Torah"

Little wonder he was zoyche to eineklach Chabad Chassidim. Der eibershter bleibt nisht kein baal choiv!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I can see one reason why you should have read it already...

Is it beneath you?

Maybe A Litvak said...

"Little wonder he was zoyche to eineklach Chabad Chassidim. Der eibershter bleibt nisht kein baal choiv!"

Which one is Chabad?

Monsey kid is the biggest Torah scholar.

The one in T'V is more subdued.

The one in Flatbush is the self-proclaimed reincarnation of the Beis Yisroel/rebel without a cause/ vilde guy with shpilkes who shtinkt fuhn sheker...

Which one has 'Bob kids?

No, I don't know the whole family. Please fill us in.

Dr. King said...

'who is "you guys?"'

UO Jews

'and what is the more obvious question, in your very humble opinion?'

It is heretical-so I won't speak it out. You are a smart guy, you should be able to figure it out.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

His son in law, Rav Yaakov Peretz Bluming is a Lubavitcher Chossid.

remember:

א זון האט מען, אן איידעם נעמט מען

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

oh. I get it. "where was G-d?"

Maybe A Litvak said...

How goes the old Chabad saying to struf or shult a Msinagid, but take him for an eydem?

Can we get a short bio on the eydem? occupation,dob, SSN, something?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The Eydem was a Maggid Shiur in Fallsburg as far as I know. That was a while ago, though. Now he's writing seforim, kind of like a RamBam HaMevuar.

Has good kids.

Kalman (the real) said...

There are six dargus in the Briyah: domem, tzomeach, chay,medaber,yisroel and Lubavitch. We are inherently an andereh sod mentch and a superior level in the briyah.

Snags fall somewhere between domem and tzomeach or maybe a domem that is also a midaber, but defintely not a true midaber, because speaking chasidus is the only true dibbur.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

The one in Torah Vodaas is "subdued" as Mal said.

Given his brother I sometimes think he's trying to do some kind of zeh l'umas zeh thing.

Dr. King, this is a history/politics blog, not a theological/Torah one. There is no reason to address the answer to your question here.

Anonymous said...

עס איז שוין נישטא וואס צו שרייבן קריכט מען אויף גראדע ווענט?

Avremele said...

MAL

The oldest son (R' Yitzchok Meir - YTV) is a tzadik.
The second son (R' Refoel - R"Y Viznitz) is a boki b'chol chadrei hatorah.
The third son (R' Yisroel Simcha - Or Sameach) is a tremendous lamdan.

The fourth son (R' Avrohom - everyones favorite) is still working out the kinks. He posesses the maalos of bekius and lamdonus to a certain extent, without a doubt. He does happen to be the closest thing to a mamshich of the Beis Yisroel.

R' Moshe Silberberg (SIL1) is a tremendous gaon and mechaber seforim.

R' Yankel Bluming (SIL2) big talmid chochom, lost track of him. I don't know about Fallsburg, but he was with some yeshiva in Queens (source: Sefer Chemed Shloime - Tenka Rov ZT"L). At some point, he was with Novominsk. I guess a previous commenter was right, that he's working on a sefer.

R' Shea Heshel Hershberg (SIL3). After leaving BMG, he was at some point Rosh Kollel of Skver in Monsey, and later, a Magid Shiur in Nitra (Mt. Kisco). Currently, he is a Magid Shiur in Lizensker Yeshiva (Noam Elimelech), as well as the Rov of the Skverer B"M in Monsey.

R' Shloime Frishvasser (SIL4). Learned in BMG, then BME. His father made him return to London and keep an eye on his brother, so he wouldn't squander the family fortune. He is Rosh Yeshiva of Chayyei Olam, and he is the Rov of the Sassover B"M in Golders Green.


What was it that Rav Bick ZY"A said in his hesped "Zayne kinder vet men nisht treffen oif 47 street. - His children aren't diamond dealers."

Avremele said...

to Modeh B'miktzas

He's 17 years older then his baby brother. He's not subdued. He just doesn't live on our level. Watch him in the street. He doesn't look out of his daled amos. Step into his shul and atch him daven. He's not subdued. He's holy.

gIBBERZ said...

Blooming is R'Schorr son-in-law.He learned in Tora Voda'as.As far as I know, when R'Scorr took him for an eydem he was not a Lubavitcher(at least bgiluy).There was an interview with him in Bais Moshiach, where he tells some of his backround.
Aren't some of his sons Meshichist?I thought so but may be wrong


"The Eydem was a Maggid Shiur in Fallsburg as far as I know"
Hirshel, you sure of this??
See, if that is what you believe at least, it shows that you are not truthful with yourself.Why? Cuz you realize that Fallsburg, would not appoint an official Lubavitcher to be a magid shiur,RIGHT?!If so what is your proof from your saying and clear implication "remember:

א זון האט מען, אן איידעם נעמט מען is that R'Schorr chose him knowing he was a Lubab?!!!

MAL
You evidently don't know R'Schors family.Firstly he has TWO sons in Monsey,R'Refoel and R'Smicha(?)R'Simcha is rosh yeshiva in Ohr Someach and R'Refoel is Rosh Yeshiva in Viznitz, both are leading scholars with literally world class status.The youngest son, Avromy is a world class iluy and talmid chochom.Really.He took his time finding his place as a magid shiur in various chasidic yeshivas till he found his natural place, ironically, in Flatbush.Yes, his crowd is the Flatbush, Torah Vodaas of old style(today tora vodaas is crumbling).Notwithstanding his silly chasidishe accent, hoizen in zoken, langeh rekkel and Gerer sharfkait he is very similar to his dads style.I can't stand his chasidishe look etc cuz I find it unatural but he is a first class, iluyishe talmid chochom, kma'ayon hamisgaber mamosh, and MENTSCH!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I love the naarishe circular logic here...

Gibberz said...

Avremel
You are right about Bluming, he is publishing a Ramba'm with his commentary.
R'Siberberg has a son who has a very large following.He is similar to Avromy the uncle.

Gibberz said...

"I love the naarishe circular logic here..."

If you love it so much, explain what is circular about it,k??

Btw, you "tried" your hardest to put down R'Ahron Kotler by saying "Young Gedalyohu wrote a letter to his Rosh Yeshivah, later of White Plains and Lakewood" You, won't chas vesholom mention R'Ahrons name, meh tor doch nisht, eh, BUT, what exactly are you trying to say by mentioning that R'Ahron was "from White Plains",eh?

By the way "Young Gedalyohu" was not exactly "young" he was 29.Also the comment about the hester of the Holocaust was made by R'Yitzchok Meir the oldest son iirc.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

"He couldn't have taught there because Fallsburg wouldn't take an official Lubavitcher"

that's circular logic to me.

Gibberz said...

Well, you think that Fallsburg would take an official Lubavitcher??
You must be smokin' something.
Fact of the matter is that I can't recall any official Lubavitcher as magid shiur in any yeshiva of stature besides Arthurs uncle.Can you??

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
Sorry for getting off topic, did u see the last weeks Hamodias interview with the Avrohom Yitzchok rebbe And one of the Brandsdorfer boys that his fathers(Reb Mieir Brandsdorfers) rebbe Muvhak was Reb Avrhom Hirsh Cohen, its was nu info for me,It just more fodder for the hordes of snags that are hovering you site

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

very good, Gibberz. looks like that country cleared your head...

So obviously I mean that he became a Lubavitcher later on!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The Bransdorfer piece was not news to me. He said very often that R Avrohom Hersh Cohen was his rebbe muvhak.

GiBBERZ said...

"So obviously I mean that he became a Lubavitcher later on!"

Lovely, Hirshel!
And my point was that when he was chosen by R Gedalya as eydem he was not a card carrying member of Chabad!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

YOU ARE CORRECT, SIR!

Gibberz said...

(Reb Mieir Brandsdorfers) rebbe Muvhak was Reb Avrhom Hirsh Cohen.
Here is one example of aLubavitcher as a magid shiur.He was unusual.He dressed with Chasidishe levush and became Chabad , a gevorener

Anonymous said...

I once heard Reb Simchas Shmuess in his shul, it was a smorgasboard of sources and quotes but no adhesive to mold it into one straight theory. I assume I am the problem since he is the genius and I am the laymen

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

RAHC came to EY from Poland and immediately entered Yeshiva Toras Emes in Yerushalayim, IIRC. He is a Gevorener, yes, but not like others. He was in Lubavitch his whole life.

Gibberz said...

"YOU ARE CORRECT, SIR!"

So, what were you trying to say with this "remember:

א זון האט מען, אן איידעם נעמט מען"

??
And why didn't you have to say it about his other eydimer?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Gibberz

chill out, my friend, so I said it, so what? That's how this blog goes

The same goes for his other, no question about it.

Gibberz said...

"RAHC came to EY from Poland and immediately entered Yeshiva Toras Emes in Yerushalayim"

I'm not at all sure about this.Iirc correctly he studied in one of the Yerushalmy/chasidic leaning places like Chayei Oilom.That is also why he was close to the R'Ahralach

Anonymous said...

Giberz,
Was Rivkin also a gevorener?
Is the barier of levush a chabad problem? or Toldois aron problem? I am a little naive.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

He was close because he taught there

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
In that interviewThey dont touch the big grandpa of Pishtiyan with a 10 foot pole,eventough his outspoken talent in pesak he definitly inherited from that Ziede.I guess thats the price for thinking(and printing) out of the box

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
Wasnt he from Aleksaner chasidim? he arrived to Palestine as a bochur? The mocher seforim reb gershon was his brother?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

IIRC they were brothers and arrived from Poland. Yes, Aleksander if my memory serves me right.

Gibberz said...

"chill out, my friend, so I said it, so what? That's how this blog goes"

No problem, but good to see you admitting something.You see my point was, that as I understood your quotation that "an eydem nemt mehn" you were trying to say that R'Gedalyeh chose a Lubavitcher as an eydem in your mind at least, to which I asked you, how could YOU think so if you, at the same time claimed that he had later been a magid shiur in Fallsburg, almost impossible as a card carrying member of Chabad.

Now, for the sake of truth it could be that he was Chabad when he got married.What I recall from an interview he had with Bais Moshiach (an oy leosoh busha that an eydem of R'Gedalya is maskim to an interview in that idiotic meshichist rag..)is that he was not an "official" Lubavitcher but may have already had a connection with Chabad at the time.

BTW,How about trying to to answer my question about why you had to tell us that R'Ahron Kotler was from "White Plains".You are trying to put him down (or find favor in Lubavitcher eyes..)but what is unfavorable about being from White Plains???(When was he in White Plains btw?)
You see, I'm a "talmid" of the Rebbe, who always tried to explain different teachings of tanoyim/Amoroyim by "leshitosoi".So here I'm trying to understand, why "leshitischo" being from White Plains is a put down (had you said "formally of Berlin,then Paris" I think I would understand the putdown)

gibberz said...

"He was close because he taught there"

This is a bit circular, don't you think???.

Question was why was he taken there to begin with??

Lulei demistapineh I would say that he never learned in Toras Emes or any Chabad place.He may have learned in Sefas Emes, the ONLY real chasidic yeshiva at the time

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Toras Emes started 15 years before Sfas Emes.

Please stop sounding stupid.

Good thing it's not "Mistapineh"

Anonymous said...

Gibberz,
Lets face it, the reason Misnagdisher yeshivahs will not hire people of stature as reb Osher Lemel Kohen, 1 of the Kalmansohn brothers, Volberg or Friedman, because the brain of todays benai torah dont go further then Malkiel or the young Gifters brain. Farshtiest

Anonymous said...

gibberz
tell me the Emes why was Sefas Emes more chasidic the Toras Emes

Gibberz said...

Toras Emes was a Yerushalmy yeshiva run by Lubavitch.It was not a "chasidishe yeshiva" many if not most of the talmidim were not chasidish.Chayei Oilom was opened way before Toras Emes and if you noticed before I called it Yerushalmy/chasidic leaning.So was Toras Emes.The first chasiDishe yeshiva was Sefas Emmes.

*So what if you learned in a totally changed Toras Emes!

Anonymous said...

Gibberz,
do you know a lot of misnagdim that are from toras emes? did they have a curiculum of Chassidus? was Havlin the mashpia there? I believe it was much closer to chassidus then,then Gur will ever be.(i am not talking Kedusha nobody will ever compete with the Ger celibacy)

gibberz said...

Anon 5:48.
Do me a favor and choose a name.

If Rabbis Friedman,Kalmanson etc would be taken by Litvishe yeshivas Lubavitch would practically speaking have almost no magidei shiur of any stature.Do you think you would like that to happen??

Btw, RE:R'Osher Lemel Cohen, what is wrong with his chasidishe levush, peyos, langeh rekkel and shtreimel that his kids felt the need to change to become more "modern" looking???Sorry, turned my stomach to see these pictures in a Chabad news site with pics from the barmitzvah of his eyneekel in Russia

Anonymous said...

his einikel is doing "Kiruv" so wats the problem

Anonymous said...

Who said that the chabad hat is less chasidish the a wide brim hat of the paris women in the 30's. I assume that the Ziede reb Avrohom Hersh saw beyond this nonsense and he chose the Rebbe as his neshoma kelolis because that was the ultimate truth in his opinion, Obviously you are free to take the Premishlaner Rebbe with the widest brim hat as your Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

Gibberz,
Your worry for lubavitch yeshivahs is really appreciate by rabosaini Zy"a but I believe charity starts at home, can you please get some semi decent Rosh in the biggest yeshivah on earth?

anon3 said...

"Giberz,
Was Rivkin also a gevorener?"
Definitely not. He was amongst the first bochurim that learned in TT.He was a ben bayis and poisek by the Rebbe Rasha"b and a very close chaver of Rav Landa Sr.Zatza"l of Bnai Brak.He was also sent to EY by the Rebbe Rayat"z to help establish Toras Emes.

gibberz said...

Btw,
R'Osher Lemil Cohens father,R'Avrohom Hersh, was rosh yeshiva in Toldos Aharon for eight years from yud daled to chof beis.My gut feeling was that at the time his Lubavitvch-kayt had grown to be too much for R'Ahralach to be soivel and he needed to find a new shtelleh, which he did in Lubavitcher yeshivas.Otherwise I don't see a reason for his leaving.As I contended before R'Avrohom Hersh was most probably not a talmid in a Lubavitcher yeshiva and had slowly become "mekushar" to the Rebbe after starting already as a bochur to be interested in Chabad.

anon3 said...

Forgot to mention that as far as I know Rav Schorr at one point was a talmid of Rav Rivkin in TV.

gibberz said...

"Gibberz,
Your worry for lubavitch yeshivahs is really appreciate by rabosaini Zy"a but I believe charity starts at home, can you please get some semi decent Rosh in the biggest yeshivah on earth?"

Anon, who won't take a name.
Listen pal, Lakewood has five thousand current talmidim enrolled.They must be doing something right.Compare your Crown Heights to Lakewood,k?

Gibberz said...

"Who said that the chabad hat is less chasidish the a wide brim hat of the paris women in the 30's. I assume that the Ziede reb Avrohom Hersh saw beyond this nonsense"

Hey,
How about the "nonsense" of peyos,eh?
Who said peyos are "chasidish"?
I guess that's why Lubavitcher frown on Peyos

gibberz said...

Arthur,
Of course I did not mean that R'Rivkin was not a born and bred Lubavitcher.What I hinted at was that he was much of a "dor hashshinik and even less of a dor hashvi'inik".Same goes for R'Yaakov Landau from Bnei Brak.

*you,I'm sure know more than you want to tell us about how much the feter suffered from the shvi'nikes besof yomov.Veda'l

gibberz said...

"Forgot to mention that as far as I know Rav Schorr at one point was a talmid of Rav Rivkin in TV."

Don't think so,Aurthur.When did feter come to America?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

VeDal nothing.

GIBBERZ said...

what I hinted at was that he was *NOT much of a "dor hashshinik and even less of a dor hashvi'inik".Same goes for R'Yaakov Landau from Bnei Brak.

*CORRECTION

Anonymous said...

Giberz,
If the hat is the Yesoid Hachasidus, then how can we sleep at night, when the Bobover,Munkatcher,Nadvorner,Clevelander,changed from a wide brim to the tall, Is the stain on the derech habesht that great?
Did they do it for sholum bayis reasons? did the wives tell them they look more cute in the tall hat? I remember seeing in a zichronois from some satmar guy that Reb Yolish was mad at these rebbes that changed(I looked at it as pettiness from the chochom mikol odum)

gibberz said...

"VeDal nothing"
Ask Aurthur privately

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I don't need to ask Arthur anything privately. We all know what happened with his eydem, a misnaged, and how he was harassed for it. But what does that have to do with his relationship with the Rebbe???

Anonymous said...

Giberz,
I see in Rivkins works high respect for the Rebbe in the hakdomah to the Tifers Tzion and in the Askavtie Derebbe, he discusses the rebbes takonas in depth regarding the Ohel etc..
the SIl Shurin was a problem but what could he do? Rav Rivkin was not on Chabads payroll the seforim were published by some vaad of his talmidim and he still wrote the above. You are just throwing facts out of your cuff on Rifkin and on Cohen..

gibberz said...

I'm not talking about the eydem Sh.
I'm talking about the sof yomov

gibberz said...

Btw,
Remember!
א זון האט מען, אן איידעם נעמט מען

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

און אמאל איז דא "לוקחי בנותיו" אויך
ע"ע מיר-ירושלים וחתני ר"ח שמואלביץ

anon3 said...

"Listen pal, Lakewood has five thousand current talmidim enrolled.They must be doing something right.Compare your Crown Heights to Lakewood,k?"
Telz of old and ponivitch "were doing something right" at one point and look at them now.
The gadlus of Lakewood was due to the gadlus of Reb Shneur Z'L.The current R"H Malkiel has nothing to do with it's flourishing amount of talmidim for reasons that I'm sure we're all aware of.

gibberz said...

Anon,
Choose a name.
Can't discuss stuff with a guy who won't even bother to that

gibberz said...

And,
Btw, Anon-whom-ever-you-are, I did not say that R'Rivkin did not have respect for the Rebbe,I just don't think he was a very big chosid

anon3 said...

"Don't think so,Arthur.When did feter come to America?"
In the 20's.

gibberz said...

און אמאל איז דא "לוקחי בנותיו" "ע מיר-ירושלים וחתני ר"ח שמואלביץ
-------------------------------------


הירשל,וואס דארפסט דו זוכען אין דער פרעמד
ע"ע "בית הרב" ואכמ"ל וד"ל

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
Its amazing how the snags like to bring up the Shurin Episode, if I remember correct it happened that he wrote against the Rebbes anti Miho Yehuda war, that by now everybody is agreeing today that with the new russian olim is a Even Nogaif Lebais Yisroel, and the Rebbe fought with all his Koches to fight it. I remember hearing the farbrengens thinking that his heart will explode.The Tzorair Hayehudim of BB did all he can to stop it from becoming law, thru his henchman Lorencz. Shurin from the other side was writing vicously regarding the Rebbes stand against the Mizrachi MK that didnt want to leave the coalition, The Rebbe replied by a fabrengen believing that he his harming with his writing. So where exactly is their problem ? is the Morgen Zhornal so important to them? the Mizrachi? the Russian nu Mamzarim in Israel?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

מאכסט א גראבן טעות

א מאדערנע איידעם מיינט נאך נישט לוקחי בנותיו

זיך טרעפן ביי די שטיגן אין די בנין הישיבה מיינט אבער יא!

anon3 said...

"just don't think he was a very big chosid"
He wasn't a chosid of many of the contemporary chassidim but the Rebbe....?

Anonymous said...

Gibberz
Stop scaring us with the Vedals, as if their is something more to the story, Yes the FR had a SIL without a beard. Are we ready to discuss all the beis horavs starting fom the 2 biggest Kanoim Belz and Munkatch in the Doir Tapichous in Poland and for sure in Russia,

gibberz said...

Arthur,
Actually,R'Malkiel has a lot to do with Lakewoods hatzlocha.Lakewood is totally not built on "Shiurim".It's a chaburah based system.Meaning that every talmid chooses a chaburah they want to belong to and are assigned seats in that chaburah area.There is a rosh hachuraeh, who runs the chaburah and can be approached to talk in learning with.There are chaburahs for almost every style of learning and different gemoras, daf, maseches etc..
The shiurim kloliliyim of the Roshei yeshivos are not very widely attended.Btw, there are FOUR Roshei yeshiva.R'Malkiel is a fine talmid chochom and well liked in the yeshiva.

Anonymous said...

Anon 3
did Gibberz check his chassidic barometer? ehr Redt a in der velt arien

gibberz said...

"Doir Tapichous "

What's this?
You are mixing your Satmar havoro with your current Lubab status???

gibberz said...

He wasn't a chosid of many of the contemporary chassidim but the Rebbe....?
Yes

gibberz said...

I think he respected the Rebbe but was not a chosid of his.Surely not in the way chosid is used today

evanstonjew said...

What was it about Rav Schorr that he was zoceh that all 7 of his children and SILs are such outstanding scholars? Any ideas?

Are there any other gedolim of the last generation that had a comparable zechus?

gibberz said...

Evanston,
Unfortunately Hirschel , focused on the last not very important lines in the Hamodia magazine article, choosing to skip the very interesting biography of R'Gedalya as related by two of his sons.
A small snippet related there was that in his teens for a year he studied in the attic in his parents house with his mother bringing him his meals!
He was also a very involved father to his kids.Lastly, R'Gedalya was a brilliant person and his kids have inherited his genes.

Anonymous said...

About רבן יוחנן בן זכאי making a "wrong call" in the time of חורבן בית שני the גמרא says קרי עליה רב יוסף ואיתימא רבי עקיבא משיב חכמים אחור ודעתם יסכל

What's the big deal?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Gibberz

I "chose" nothing. I had that page sent to me and I focused on that.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

A few comments about Rav Gedalya Schorr and Rav Rivkin.

My GF was a contemporary and close friend of RGS. They were in TV together. RGS was considered chassidish in that he only went to the beach very early in the morning when there were no ladies there!! (Of course the bathing suites of then weren’t like today’s). His wedding WAS MIXED SEATING. I would tell you who my grandmother was sitting next to, but that would be revealing myself.

When my GF came back from Europe in 1932 or so, he was surprised to hear the chassidus coming from Rav Shraga F. Mendelovitch as in my GF’s days he heard not a word of chassidus from him. (And my GF who became a born again snag in Europe was not favorably impressed.)

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

BTW, my GF had an astonishing story with Rav Chatzkel Levenstine. HE had to make a serious life decision, and asked RCL what to do. RCL wasn’t sure, and preformed the Goral Hagra, with amazing success.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

’ I'll go out on a limb here and say that RGS never asked him as a chossid would ask his Rebbe; and if he did it was only because he shtammed from chassidim. But he soon realized that this is no chassidishe Rebbe, so he packed his bags and left.’

More likely (and similarly) he asked for an opinion. But when none was forthcoming, he left. Because it was an opinion, not Ruach Hakodesh. Just one of many factors to be considered.

anon3 said...

"His wedding WAS MIXED SEATING. I would tell you who my grandmother was sitting next to, but that would be revealing myself."
All weddings at that time were mixed seating whether Lubavitch,Litvish,Chreidish (there wasn't much of a yeshivishe constichuincy at that time) and otherwise.Even though the yeshiveshe will deny it but the Rebbe was the first one to make a vayitzaku about it from a halachik standpoint.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"Even though the yeshiveshe will deny it but the Rebbe was the first one to make a vayitzaku about it from a halachik standpoint."

Source please. To the part about the Rebbe

Anonymous said...

RAK never lived in Lakewood.After White Plains,he lived in Boro Park

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I know, but that was his shtelle.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Gibberz

Avrum ain't great in learning. He hides behind fluff, but he doesn't say much. He is better at holding a job than saying the vort. Vedal

anon3 said...

"A few comments about Rav Gedalya Schorr and Rav Rivkin."
What are the comments about Rav Rivkin?

anon3 said...

Part one
Reb Moshe Feinstein [10] favours the approach that there is no obligation for a mechitza for ordinary gatherings including weddings. He proves this from the laws of Pesach. The paschal lamb, could not be eaten in separate groups. A number of families (sometimes up to forty or fifty) would combine to eat the same sacrifice [11]. There were certainly men and women eating together without a mechitza.

Also, the Gemora [12] writes of the bride turning to the side to eat so as not be embarrassed. Clearly it was not from her father or brothers that she was embarrassed but from other men who were present at the meal.

Reb Moshe therefore rules that a mechitza is required only if two criteria are fulfilled. First, there must be a gathering of men and women - excluding a situation of a single woman entering (Chana prayed at the Beis Hamikdosh next to Eli the High Priest, without a mechitza).

Second, the gathering must be for a matter of sanctity (dovor shebikdusha) such as davening. (Reb Moshe, therefore, would seem to maintain that the simchas beis hasho'eivo and the future eulogy mentioned in the Gemora were considered matters of sanctity, but that a wedding is not.)

Sridei Eish [13] rules that although gatherings, which are not for matters of sanctity, do not require a mechitza, nevertheless men and women should sit separately so as not to mix.

The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch [14] (based on the Bach and Beis Shmuel) rules that "shehasimcho bimoinoi" ("in whose abode there is joy") is not said during the benching of a sheva brochos if men and women are seated in the same room because there is no simcha when the evil inclination is active. On this basis many contemporary poskim rule that there must be a mechitza at weddings and sheva brochos.

anon3 said...

Part 2
The Lubavitcher Rebbe [15] in a letter to parents who were planning a wedding for their children writes [free translation] "...When one arranges a wedding with a partition according to the stipulation of our Holy Torah the din is that we should say (in the Grace after meals) shehasimcho bimoinoi, which means that when mentioning Hashem's name we do so in connection with simcha. This means that we should bring simcha into the world and especially to the choson and kallah.

"Surely it is superfluous to write about what has happened in recent years in the world generally and particularly among Jews. If in all ages we had to rely on Hashem for a blessing, success and even more for a happy and healthy life, how much more so is it essential in our generation, and the only one who can provide this is the One who is the Master of the whole world - the Holy One Blessed be He.

"...Therefore it surprised me that parents who do everything within their power to ensure that their children should be blessed with good fortune, would be willing to apply energy towards preventing there being simcha at their daughter's wedding.

"...it is not my custom to use harsh words, therefore I wish to conclude my letter talking about that which is good. When I gave my consent to the shidduch I was sure the parents on their part would do everything dependent on them that their daughter and future son-in-law would be ensured of goodness and happiness, as much as feasibly possible, for the tens of years that they will be together. It is self understood that it is of no consequence whether or not her friends will be pleased, as long as the Holy Torah is satisfied with the arrangements of the wedding. As mentioned previously, if we truly want the Holy Torah to pasken that we can say shehasimcho bimoinoi at the wedding, and thereby be happy thereafter for the rest of life, the Shulchan Aruch states that the wedding should be with a mechitza..."

The Rebbe refers in this letter to the Lvush [16] who discusses the case of Rav Gidel in the Gemora. Rav Gidel used to stand at the mikva and instruct women how to immerse themselves. When questioned about this he explained that the women were like white geese to him - of no physical importance. The Lvush suggests that one might similarly suggest nowadays, that men and women in general mix more freely, that improper thoughts do not follow from these gatherings and one could say "shehasimcho bimoinoi" even without a mechitza. Nevertheless the Rebbe rejects this permission with the observation that nowadays it is simply not so.

Similarly the Oz Nidberu [18] writes that these words of the Lvush were not accepted by many authorities as halacha.

[1] 51b
[2] Choshen Mishpot 190
[3] Hilchos Beis Habchiro Ch5:9
[4] For above see: Igros Moshe
- Orach Chaim Vol 1:39-44; Vol 2:43; Vol 3:33-34; Vol 4:29-33
- Yoreh Deah Vol 2:109
[5] Succah Ch5:2
[6] For above see:
Responsa Maharam Shik - Orach Chaim 77
Lev Ho'Ivri - Minhogei Beis Haknesses
Zichron Yehuda - Orach Chaim 62
Sharai Halacha U'Minhag (from the Lubavitcher Rebbe) Vol 1 pp 198-199
Orach Mishpat (from Rav Kook z"l) - Laws of Beis Haknesses
Tzitz Eliezer Vol 7, 8
Shaivet Halevi Vol 1, 21
Minchas Yitzchok Vol 2, 20
Taharas Yom-Tov Vol 6, pp28-60
Bar Moshe Vol 4, 187
Oz Nidberu Vol 12, 48
[7] Taharas Yom-Tov Vol 6, pp28-60
[8] see above
[9] see above
[10] Igros Moshe - Orach Chaim Vol 1, 41
[11] see Pesachim 64a
[12] Pesachim 86a
[13] Vol 2, 8
[14] 149:1
[15] see Sharai Halacha U'Minhag p126
[16] Likutei Minhogim 36
[17] see Berachos 20a
[18] Vol 12, 46-48

anon3 said...

"Even though the yeshiveshe will deny it but the Rebbe was the first one to make a vayitzaku about it from a halachik standpoint."

"Source please. To the part about the Rebbe"

Read the answer to your question in two parts.I had to divide it in two due to the limitation on the number characters when blogging.
As I said "the yeshiveshe will deny it."

anon3 said...

The letter from the Rebbe regarding the necessity of having a mechitzah at a wedding was written to my parents A"H and my older Brother (by ten years)prior to his wedding.

gibberz said...

Maybe A Litvack,
You have garnered my respect by mostly talking tzum zach.You are open minded and curious even about Lubavitch, which most of the Yeshiva world has written off as being nuts.
Having said that, you are so totally wrong about R'Avromy Schor.Firstly, he is terrible at "fluff", that's probably why he was not good at holding jobs in the chasidishe yeshivas he had shtellas at.He is a "maayon hamisgaber" mamosh.You must have heard a mussar drosho from him.I don't like those droshes, he is way to frum for me, but even there he talks very well,if you like that style.But let's talk plain old Shas Uposkim:A boki niflo,he can quote chapter and verse, bkol hatoro kulo.Machshovo:Boki niflo in "meat and potato" seforim, Sfas Emes, everything.He is also a very creative mechadesh and an unbelievably quick thinker.Now you''ll probably think I'm a chosid of his.No!He is way to frum for me.I can't stand Gerer shtick and their narrow minded frumkait etc.Vohs yoh?I'm modeh al hoemes, the guy is a world class iluy.What I'm saying now can be verified by anybody who knows him, friend or foe.
Anyway, I don't want to get bogged down in discussing people living with us now and the badmouthing that can come out these discussions.

gibberz said...

Hirshel,
Do yourself a favor and get the whole Hamodia mag article.Not just this one page.I thought it was well written and shed light on R'Gedalya from a family perspective.
Btw, R'gedalya came to America when he was 12 years old, so he was not such a "Yankee"

oldtimer said...

On the subject of mixed seating,in the Mike Tress book it shows a copy of a newspaper announcement of his wedding and how there was separate seating.And just btw Ive heard that mike and R Gedalyah were inseperable freinds like brothers

Anonymous said...

Hershel,Rav bluming has ahaskama from Maran Rav Shach ztl,I guess he is a shvache lubavitcher

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

To the best of my knowlege, the first wedding in America with seperate seating AND a Mechitza was Rav Zeidel Epstine Z'TL.

LkwdGuy said...

As someone who is NOT a huge fan of RAS (and that is a charitable assessment) I am certain that anyone who calls his torah "fluff" either never heard a shiur/drasha from him or is incapable of understanding him.

Regarding Lakewood, when Rav Shneur was niftar the yeshiva had a few hundred talmidim. RSK is rightfully credited with taking the yeshiva from RAK's vision of a core of mitzuyanim to making more of an open yeshiva for all bnei torah but it is plain wrong to attribute all of the success of 5+ thousand talmidim to RSK to the exclusion of the four current RY, RMK, RDS, RYO and RYN.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

to Modeh B'miktzas

He's 17 years older then his baby brother. He's not subdued. He just doesn't live on our level. Watch him in the street. He doesn't look out of his daled amos. Step into his shul and atch him daven. He's not subdued. He's holy.


Who said he wasn't? I've never seen him daven in his shul but in yeshiva was enough. There's no denying it. All I said was that he is quiet and holy, not loud and holy.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

What year as the letter from the Rebbe written? Because by 1950, there were already people (definitely the minority) with Mechitos by weddings. The post war influx of European refugees (especially Chassidim) made a heightened awareness of such issues. So while the Rebbe may have been in to it early on, it is a little incredible to say “the Rebbe was the first one to make a vayitzaku about it from a halachik standpoint”. Unless this was prior to his becoming Rebbe.

anon3 said...

"So while the Rebbe may have been in to it early on, it is a little incredible to say “the Rebbe was the first one to make a vayitzaku about it from a halachik standpoint”"
I never said that there were not some individual instances of weddings with mechiztos before the Rebbes nisiyus,but they were very rare.I did say that the Rebbe was the first to make a "vayitzaku" about it and at that time it became the norm.I used the expression "halachik" for reasons mentioned above.Reb Moshe,however,says that there is no halachik requirement as such but if one does does use a mechitzah "tovo olov brocho".

Anonymous said...

Twistle
was Reb Gedalyes brother Reb Yankel of the malochim present at the wedding?

Anonymous said...

1
the only people saved from ww2 by NOT following daas tora was the tzadik rav raichik of LA

2
I'm pretty sure "all for the boss" had a mechitza at his kids weddings

Anonymous said...

Giberz,
In the seforim Halekach Vhalibuv Abe schor comes across very weak, I looked them thru cover to cover with no originality from a guy that profeses to be a Ilu with the side whipped hat, wide as the satmar rebbes hat just in ger fabric, what a shactzen, He never suceded in any job of his careers, he will eventualy fail in Flatbush he is a monster and loves to bulldoze. All his brothers are Eidele Yiden, A shachtzen bleibt A shactzen

Anonymous said...

Twistle
RSF Mendlowitz found chassidus in his later years? or he was secretive about it? wasnt his Rebbe the Arugas Habosem of Chust a big time chosid?

Anonymous said...

Anon 3
I remember that Bogimilsky of Maplewood wrote in 1 of the chabad kovtzim that opposite from the world view that Reb moshe was lenient on the Mechitza in shul, Until Reb Moshe most official Orthodox Shuls had no Mechitza what so ever, then reb moshe made it in to a Deoraiso but to 10 Tefochim.

Maybe A Litvak said...

"Firstly, he is terrible at "fluff", that's probably why he was not good at holding jobs in the chasidishe yeshivas he had shtellas at.He is a "maayon hamisgaber" mamosh.You must have heard a mussar drosho from him.I don't like those droshes, he is way to frum for me, but even there he talks very well,if you like that style.But let's talk plain old Shas Uposkim:A boki niflo,he can quote chapter and verse, bkol hatoro kulo.Machshovo:Boki niflo in "meat and potato" seforim, Sfas Emes, everything.He is also a very creative mechadesh and an unbelievably quick thinker.Now you''ll probably think I'm a chosid of his.No!He is way to frum for me.I can't stand Gerer shtick and their narrow minded frumkait etc.Vohs yoh?I'm modeh al hoemes, the guy is a world class iluy.What I'm saying now can be verified by anybody who knows him, friend or foe."

Have you ever see him speak in learning with associates? I have and he didn't succeed in impressing them and deftly changed topics when he saw where it was going (completely different inyun)

Yes, he does have a quick head.

His seforim and quasi lumdos lectures cite a lot of peripherial stuff, but the actual vort is weak. he thinks that it looks better by all the adornments; that's what I meant with fluff.

it is a shud, because he is an underachiver because he doesn't suround himselves with people who really challenge him.

He also has a temper. I was telling him nice stories about R' Yankev and a minute later he started screaming about something - his face got all red like he was doing the tish thing- oh my. I can't figure out what was his problem

(I did not say those mayses intentionally, I am no rasha, honestly)

Anonymous said...

MAL
I heard he slapped up his cousin Zilbeberg a Magid shiur in Ger BP(The holy of jerusalem's brother)in middle of his sons wedding, when he came ton say Mazel Tov. because he didnt like the way he treated his son.I dont think even the mafiose families behave by their weddings.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

I dont know if Rav Gedalyah Schoors brother came to his wedding, but I would be suprised if he didn't. My GM is no longer alive so I can't ask her. Since he was a younger brother, it would be a shock if he didn't.

My GF thought that RSFM intentionaly concealed his Chassidus in early years. Maybe becuase TV was run by Litvish (my speculation).

Anonymous said...

MIKE TRESS HAD A MECHITZA BY HIS CHASSUNA AND ONLY MILCHIKGS FOR KASHRUS REASONS READ THEY CALLED HIM MIKE

Anonymous said...

Twisty
Is the Old Rav Geldzheler from that era? or much later?

Anonymous said...

Twisty
what is your families view on the book of Surasky?

in the know said...

Re: Reb Yankel Bluming:

R Bluming lived in Sheepshead Bay (Ave U) growing up.(as a little kid in the Bronx) they davened in a Young Israel (later by Reb Berish Naroler) There was an Alte Kopuster Chosid by the name of Reb Chaim Black. He gathered around him the good Bochurim, i.e. the Bluming brothers, and learned with them Tanya and other Chabad Seforim. Reb Chaim was not a chosid of the Rebbe per se, But on occasion would go to a farbrengen and take the boys. R Yankel then went to YTV and then to Beis Medrash Elyon, where he learned 16-18 hours a day, my father A”H friend told me they said about Yankel Bluming “Er Ken Nisht Kein Tzuras Hamatbaya”. In any case he was a CHABAD Chosid being osek in the Alte Rebbeh's torah. Reb Gedalia Schorr knew about it, but Chabad was not as treif then as now with the advent of the Lootvisher Bochrim etc. He became a Magid Shiur in Fallsburg for 4 years. Of course nobody knew there was any Chabad connection over there. Later they moved to BP.

He taught for 15 years in Ohr Yisroel ( Geldzahler Queens) before Reb Lazer made it into a Satmer satellite.

He retired and started his life long passion ( RAMBAM HA-ARUCH)

Once free in BP he started going to the Rebbe etc.

Avremele said...

1) R' Yankel ZT"L was at the wedding. He was very family oriented, and he attended all simchas. The fact that he was a younger brother doesn't prove his attendance. He was married a few years earlier.

2) Rav Geldzahler is younger. He would be shocked if anyone referred to him as a contemporary.

Anonymous said...

In the know
Rambam Heorach, still far from Artscroll on shas or Kehuti, eventough the work on rambam is much easier. I dont understand how come nobody told him yet.

Anonymous said...

Avremele
Talking about Reb Yankel, its worth mentioning that he was studying the Rebbe Reshabs Hemshechim in his bed room,since the Maloch decided that he doesnt want to learn chabad from the Mahrash(probably Reb Chaim Brisker told him so,his talmidim are working hard to portray him as Reb Chaims friend)his son in law Reb Moshe told it to us at farbrengens many times that he was providing the material.

Avremele said...

Anon 2:23:00 PM

I don't know Kehati, because I don't use it. However, Artscroll is a team project; it can't be compared to anything else.

Anon 2:31:00 PM

R' Moishe Sklar is a zeese yid, but I wouldn't take anything he says for a fact.

Speedy Gonzalez said...

"In any case he was a CHABAD Chosid being osek in the Alte Rebbeh's torah. "

If one learns a sefer that does not make them a chosid.
The way I understand it R'Bluming was interested in Chabad already as a bochur but did not join "officially" till years later.

Btw,R'Geldzehlers yeshiva wasn't it an elementary school?

Speedy Gonzalez said...

Ah R'Moshe Sklar!
Love him!

Anonymous said...

Avremel
Say anything about Reb moshe, but he has a good memory and doesnt fantasize.

Anonymous said...

Speedy
I think it was a mesivta too
he had a lot of talented staff
Rav Goldworm Rav Shick the breslever etc..

anon3 said...

Moshe Sklar and I were in the same kittoh in Yeshiva.The man was a genius,sort of like an absent minded professor then, and probably still is.All his sisters are also very bright.