Wednesday, March 16, 2011

BOOK REVIEW - "THE REBBE" (part II)



Part I Here

I find it odd that the Rebbe who opposed all sorts of undocumented Mayses about Rebbeim (even about the BESH"T and his students) related his own rescue to a supposed dream that happened to a Zionist leader who was not even an Orthodox Jew! The author attempts to obfuscate this fact by writing that Mrs. Fischer wore a sheitel and that they were related to the late Rosh beth Din of the Eda HaCh'redis in Jerusalem R. Yaakov Y. Fisher. (whose father himself served a "Status-Quo" Kehillo) Of course this does not change the hard facts on the ground that the Rebbe, his wife, daughter and son in law, and gabbe Reb Yosef Ashkenazi were rescued by the Zionist leaders in Hungary. (I'm informed that the daughter and son-in-law were NOT on the Sondertransport. - HT) I must admit that I found this book very interesting, enough so that I read it from cover to cover twice. Yet what it lacks is any tone of objectivity. Compared to this ArtScroll works are honest treatments of their subject matter.

Rabbi Meisels discusses the Rebbe's rabbinic career in Rumania and Hungary prior to the War. We do learn that he was Rav in Orshiva, Krole and finally in the large community of Satmar. We learn that he was both Rav and Rebbe. Yet his status as leader of the Sighet dynasty after his brother's death ( The "Atzei Chaim" of Sighet - HT) is left a tad cloudy. But what the author fails to mention is that in most places RJT lived in major disputes broke out. After deciding to leave Krole for Satmar a massive machlokes broke out between 2 rival rabbinic candidates, one a cousin of the Rebbe, another a son in law of the Spinker Rebbe, (Reb Abish Horowitz, HY"D, father of Reb Hershelle Spinker - HT) who was the leader of the 3rd largest Chasidic grouping in Hungary-Rumania. This was a violent struggle which has been documented and involved many other Rabbis. RJT first arrived in Satmar in 1934, years after he was supposedly elected as chief rabbi of this large mainly Ashkenazi community. Here too there were any number of serious opponents to his rabbinate grouped about the Tashnader Rav, and it was only after several years of violent struggle that he finally was able to assume the rabbinate there.

In Satmar itself the Rebbe was invovled in wars against rival chassidic dynasties. For example he demanded that the Zaddik Rav Aren Roth leave Satmar as he was opposed to his derech. R. Roth relocated to Beregsaz. I must note that today we identify the Toldos Aron Chassidic communtiy with Satmar , but that only came about because Rav Arele was followed by his son-in-law Reb Abraham Itzhak Kohn who was a disciple of RJT. It was only Rabbi Kohn who emphasized anti Zionism in this community. It is clear that RJT embarked on a path to acheive hegemony over the rabbinic community in Northern Transylvania, inserting relatives in many key rabbinic slots such as the appointment of his nephew in law Rav YY Halberstam as Rav of the new Chasidic community in the large city of Klausenberg. Althought he book does not discuss it, it seems that following the death of the Munkatcher Rav in the late 1930's RJT became the dominant local Chasidic Rebbe in Hungary. Of course men like the Belzer Rav exerted much influence from their seats in Poland over the Hungarian Chasidic community as well.



The book also presents misleading information about the attitudes of various gedolim to the policies of RJT. While the volume discusses the Satmar demonstrations in NYC in the early 1950's it fails to note that these demonstratons were attacked by among others Rabbi Eliezer Silver (who called for the Cherem on RJT) the President of the Agudath Ho-Rabbonim and Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin the head of Ezrath Torah and the posek for most of American Jewry. Even Rav Aaron Kolter was upset by the tone of some of these public demonstrations. Both were livid and outraged by the Satmar tactics and neither was ever identified with Zionism themselves. This chapter in Satmar history receives a more objective treatment in a small Yiddish book written DER REBBE UND DER SATAN by the late Chaim Lieberman (not to be confused with the secretary of the Rayatz).On page 508-509 we are presented with evidence "ke'illu" Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky was so influenced by RJT's books that he changed his mind after reading them. . Well as far as I can recall Reb Yankev remained a member of the Agudas Israel his whole life and was a member of it's Council of Torah sages. Even more so we are told in a obituary for the same Mr. Lieberman that Reb Yankev considered him one of Americ's most erliche yidden! Clearly Rav Yaakov knew about Lieberman's works.


Even more outrageous is a depiction on page 506 about the attitude of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik to RJT. Its states " You must know that since the Satmar Rebbe came to America every Jew has become more religious, myself included" It takes real chutzpah to write this. The footnote for this note is self referential no source less than Rabbi Dovid Meisels. Now that is truly unusual an author using himself as a source! As far as I can tell the Rav was religious prior to the coming of RJT, and that men like his father, uncle, and grandfather were more profound influences of his religious personality than a Rebbe he probably never met. I doubt the Rav ever mentions the Rebbe or even the Yetev Lev or Yismach Moshe. On page 508 we are treated to a story that the Skulener Rebbe, Rabbi Eliezer Zishe Portugal went blind because he disregarded the position of RJT about praying at the Kossel Maaravi. Can anyone believe that Hashem would do such a thing to such a tzaddik for such an action? It boggles the mind especially in regards the posotion of RJT to mofsim by Rebbes in our day.


On page 268 the author treats us to a new unfounded accusation that the leader of the Palestinian Aguda Rabbi Moshe Blau was poisoned. Again, if the author has evidence he ought to present it in detail, but I doubt the Chofetz Chaim would approve of such unfounded charges. On pages 462-464 the author discusses RJT's position as to the formal education of Jewish girls in regards Jewish studies In Europe the Rebbe was strictly opposed to such, yet in the US he opened up his own girl's school. The author writes "It was not a change of position but a change of situation." The sub headings in this chapter include such titles as "changing times" and " The New Reality." This is all very interesting, as the Rebbe used this sort of thinking to justify girls' schools and drop his opposition to sheitlech. Yet when it came to Israel and Zionism he failed to see that after 1945 times had changed and there was a new reality. 6 million Jews had been killed, The thousand-year Jewish civilization in Europe was destroyed. Close to 1 million homeless Jews were stranded in Eastern Europe. Yet the Rebbe did not see the change of situation and insisted on no change of position. One wonders what the Rebbe's position was as to regarsd the future of the close to half million Hungarain-Rumanian survivors in 1945. Where were they supposed to renew their lives in Communist Rumania? in Chile? in Denmark? or were they supposed to smuggle themselves into Meah Shearim despite British White papers? Let me note that America had strict quotas concerning the number of DP Jews admitted from Eastern Europe right after the war, and in fact hundreds of thousands of survviors from Northern Rumania made their way to Israel from 1950-1965, and many resumed their Orthodox lifestyle.

I must note that while the Kluizenberger Rav and others were actually in the DP camps trying to revive Jewish life, The Rebbe left Israel to the US, (and made - HT) no stop in the DP camps. Among the Rabbinic figures who visited the DP camps were Chief Rabbi Herzog, Rav Eliezer Silver, Kriniker Rav Rabbi Mishikovsky, Rabbi Pinchos Wohlgelernter and last but not least the shliach meyuchad of the Rebbe Rayatz, his son in law Rabbi S. Gourary. Although Rav M. Schneerson was in Paris after the war on a private matter, he too used the opportunity to address the survivors of the Lubavitch community then stranded in France. Without doubt the (Satmar - HT) Rebbe was a great Jewish leader and he played a major role - if not the dominant role - in transplanting Eastern European Jewish life to the US. He stressed the need to retain the clothing, the food , the language and the complete east European Jewish personality. In this manner he set the gold standard, by which other Chasidic and ultra- Orthodox groups viewed their own identities. And yes, he accomplished much and did influence the religious attitudes of many American Jews. Yet his opposition to the new reality of the State of Israel, to the fact that its creation and existence was an endless succession of miracles and that as emphasized by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Israel was a makom miklat for millions of Jews; and their safety could not be placed in danger by demonstrations, newspaper ads and prayers for a so called peaceful end to Israel. (how so by a mass emigration to Monroe or Antwerp?).

After years of following the career of RJT and reading much by him and about him , I sense that RJT's chief interest was the transmission of Eastern European Jewish life and the only manner he thought he could do this is by being completely negative about Israel. Thus he adopted a hard line against Hebrew, and this did in fact enable 3 Yiddish weeklies to thrive in New York. He was against Israel, hence his followers lived in the golah where diaspora type Jewish culture had more of a chance. This book deserves to be read, as it depicts one of the most important Jewish religious personalities of the 20th centuries. But it must be read in conjunction with other volumes giving a more multi dimensional portrait of RJT as well as a more objective treatment of the manner gedolim viewed Zionism and Israel after the Holocaust.

123 comments:

grainom said...

On page 268 the author treats us to a new unfounded accusation that the leader of the Palestinian Aguda Rabbi Moshe Blau was poisoned.

dovor yedua, i will bln find the source were those that did it on behalf of the jewish agency admitted it.

Anonymous said...

To Schneur,

Oh Wow! You’re overwhelming mud throwing intentional or not with the purpose that at least some will stick! I’ll let others deal with (have fun all.. its not maleh or morid) but by reading your reviews it is clear to me that although you read ‘the rebbe’ and the likes.., that you try to read his psych and logic why he was against the ‘medina’ but you failed to read/learn his numerous books where he explains his ‘daas torah’ based on ‘halach’ and ‘mesora’ on which he was a great authority on both, maybe if you would you would have a more complete understanding on this great mystifying and forceful personality here on the American soil.

On your little nitty gritty refutes ‘he said.. he said’ I’ll not get into it or try to set the record straight, just on the first paragraph where you write and wonder
I quote ” I find it odd that the Rebbe who opposed all sorts of undocumented Mayses about Rebbeim (even about the BESH"T and his students) related his own rescue to a supposed dream that happened to a Zionist leader who was not even an Orthodox Jew!” yes indeed it is odd! But also true the rebbe himself told the ‘odd dream story’ on many occasions but you fail to finish the ‘rest of the story’ when the rebbe asked Dr. Fisher in the ghetto when he told him this ‘dream’ and insissted that the rebbe should join the train it was all suspect to the rebbe who didn’t agree at first to join by asking: ‘why will a train comprised mostly of scholars and zionist leaders want to include the most vocal ‘anti zionist’ ? on this Dr. Fisher answered “I’m fearful if this whole mission of this train will be successful but by ‘including the rebbe’ I’m confident that on his merits/z’ecuss the rescue mission will be accomlished” only than did the rebbe agree to join the train, now you know the rest of the story!

What is wonder to me is the endless ‘ahavas yisroel’ that altough he blames directly the ‘zionist movement’ for the holocoust he was willing that a train full of staungly zionist shold be rescued with ‘him’ and not let them ‘loose’ like the great ‘shimshon h’agibour’ who said “tumis nafshi em palishtim” when he had a chance to kill more pelishtim by his dead and he had a chance when he was alive!

Anonymous said...

"Although Rav M. Schneerson was in Paris after the war on a private matter, he too used the opportunity to address the survivors of the Lubavitch community then stranded in France."

please elaborate, what was he doing there? (edited)

Anonymous said...

anon, he was there to mekabel pnei imoi rebetzen chana a"h who had just left russia, and to accompany her to the USA.

Anonymous said...

Re the alleged statement of R. Soloveitchik, while I agree that a footnote citing oneself is hardly a source, to me the quote sounds on a pshat level like he is simply saying that kannous came to America and inspired a slide to the right. "More religious" could easily support that meaning. If Orthodox women began shaving their heads, a lot of people would say they became "more religious," without necessarily meaning anything positive by it.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"where he explains his ‘daas torah’ based on ‘halach"
there is no Halacha in non of his seforim (excluding his Teshuva sefer) he was against the daas torah slogans of the Aguda leaders, so don't stick it up yo him

klainer said...

To a certain extent the court of reason is in recess until the surprise witness known as"In my not so humble opinion" can testify.There is no point in commenting until kvod kedushoso releases his manifesto to the court.Oh,I forgot. I have a homework assignment: to read Veyoel Moshe,Al Hageulah veal hatemurah,The Collected Writings of Eliezer Epstein,and sefer Dor Acharon.I'll start with the Belzer Rebbe's shteyedike Torah of '79 and conclude with the historic call of the Lubavitcher Rebbe: "Lo Mahem velo mehamoneihem."On second thought I'll see if I can find a fresh copy of The Blatt...Maybe there's something about "neutrino" in it...

Anonymous said...

Anon
"But also true the rebbe himself told the ‘odd dream story’ on many occasions but you fail to finish the ‘rest of the story’ "
this whole dream does not matter to the fact that he was a Zionist, and all miracles from Zionists are performed by the Sitra Achra, (in my ani mamin there is no such thing as other miracle workers, it probably borders with heresy, but lets leave it for a other day)and this all partying on his 21 of Kislev is hypocritical, and maddens every decent god fearing person.
but why did he believe a dream from some Apikoras off the street, would he believe a dream that Reb Chaim Viznitzer or the Klausenburger would tell him,he would laugh in their face.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon, please 'learn' not read his v'yoel m'oshe it is 'strictly halacha' that he bases all his arguments and almost none demagouge shita's i.e declarations based on 'i say so' believe me 'im a godol' like others did

Anonymous said...

I do challenge all the Satmar chasidim here, I did read all of RJT works,and bring us 1 sefer halacha that quotes the isser of havinf a medina al pi torah before moshiach, Statring from the Rif to Shmiras Shabos Kehilcosa, or some Harfenes Mekadesh Yisroel (since you people don,t have the Zechia to be close to the torah giant reb Shloma Zalmen so bring me a Harfenes)

Anonymous said...

Anon
"What is wonder to me is the endless ‘ahavas yisroel’ that altough he blames directly the ‘zionist movement’ for the holocoust he was willing that a train full of staungly zionist shold be rescued with ‘him’ and not let them ‘loose’ like the great ‘shimshon h’agibour’ who said “tumis nafshi em palishtim” when he had a chance to kill more pelishtim by his dead and he had a chance when he was alive!"
I never thought that any Jew or Chosid of a Rebbe could think of his Rebbe so low, as you are giving kudos here for your Rebbe for not to being a accomplice in killing 100's of Jews.
You are a idiot

Anonymous said...

It does not appear from the review that the books mentions that RJT barely had a minyen when he went to Israel immediately after the war and was one of the reasons if not the reason why he returned to the US.

Anonymous said...

Anon3:56
Great comment!

Anonymous said...

Shneur
I never saw that book, I despise their material,
but I take you at your word that they write that the Skulener was blinded because he dared to visit the western wall.
Then how do they explain why Satmar Ruv had the stroke after he created the Issur of not going to the Kossel

Anonymous said...

this piece is disguised as a book review but is actually merely a pretense for a (EDITED)rant about his (EDITED) clearly refuted ideas about the jewish state. By now it is clear to all that the state was and is a disaster and a failure but of course it is unthinkable to say that the "kanaim" were right and RMMS was wrong.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"By now it is clear to all that the state was and is a disaster and a failure but of course it is unthinkable to say that the "kanaim" were right and RMMS was wrong."
Rmms was never for the Medina, it is important you should know your facts, he is just for saving the biggest yishuv in Klal Yisroel as every decent human being would do for a yishuv that HAS 7 MILLION JEWS residing, no matter if it is KJ or CH.
In the world I live in, secular or religious, the modern state of Israel is envied by all, its stable economy,agriculture beauty,security. There is a new book out Start Up Nation check it out, if you cant read English get Jeremiah of Lakewood to make reverse translation.

Anonymous said...

Shneur
"The author attempts to obfuscate this fact by writing that Mrs. Fischer wore a sheitel and that they were related to the late Rosh beth Din of the Eda HaCh'redis in Jerusalem R. Yaakov Y. Fisher"
My sources told me that they were a neolog family

Anonymous said...

Anon
"please elaborate, what was he doing there? (edited"
if you dont no yet
he learned in some Western European University to eventualy earn himself a Umnes Nekiah, and in his extra time he learned and wrote chidushie torah in nigleh and nister(as you can see in his reshimos and his great fathers letters to him)Bikedusha VeTahara.

Anonymous said...

Grainom
I think the Eida Hacharadis did it, because he married the beautiful convert Ruthie Blau

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon 4:54
he was asking about 1947, I think, not pre-WW2

Anon3 said...

Is there any mention in the book about the Minchas Elozer's extreme dislike for RJT? I can't vouch for the veracity of this statement by the ME referring to RJT saying "Voos tumelt er azoi fil.Svet fin eim ken zaicher nisht blaben".As a result of this hakbodeh RJT did not leave any offspring.So it is said.

Nir said...

Isn't it interesting that not one Sefardi or Yemenite Rov[except Rav Mutzafi who was paid by kanoim to sit on eda haredis sefaradis]has ever come out in agreement with RYT? I can't think of one. Their Rabbis don't know how to learn and pasken?The Yemenite Rabbis the Monroe people run after,did any of their "moris" approve the Veyoel Moshe?Thay all love the medineh and make me sebeyrachs for soldiers of Tzahal. So it seems that Satmar position has something to do with Ashkenazi politics. Otherwise how could not one Sefaradi not agree with this Monroe approach?Or maybe the Satmerers are wrong.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
Then he should learn the first volumes of Igeres Kodesh

Anonymous said...

Nit
You don,t know the core basic of the shita,
Everybody is farchapt but them, the zionists have all the Sefardim, most of all the Ashkenazim on their payroll.

Anonymous said...

I read the book and feel the same the story about the Skulener a holy jew who did millions of acts of chesed G-D punished him for such a silly thing has got be a very sad thing to print in a book ...

Only satmer knows why he went blind?

Maybe there are 2 satmer rebbes and numerous fights and court cases and machlokes in satmer because they dont go to the western wall!!!!

bobov chusid said...

the picture were the rebbi puts down becher, is cropped and doctered, in the original you can see the chelkas yakkov rav of zurich switzerland, in the picture which was taken at the sheva brachus rabbi geller of bobov, the satmer rebbi puts down his becher and the chelkas yakkov picks up his becher.

Anonymous said...

I think it was the Minchas Elozor who said that if you would him in the forest he would wage war on the trees.

Morris Marmarasher said...

There are two Satmerer rebbes because the goyisher judge in the appellete division can't decide which of the Reform-neologue lawyers representing the tzadikei hador has a reyner shiteh bnogeye Di Medineh and durchzichtike strimpf.On advice of learned counsel he has ordered a reverse translation of all relevant materials in the matter of Teitelbaum vs. Teitelbaum et al.The final decision will be issued in Hungarian and reverse translated to Yiddish and English by Israel Bookshop, Lakewood,N.J.

Pringle said...

I must say I'm quite disgusted with this "Review".

It's much less of a review of the book and much more about digging up old dirt and machlokes.

There's much more to say, but:

1-
"he demanded that the Zaddik Rav Aren Roth leave Satmar as he was opposed to his derech. R. Roth relocated to Beregsaz."

A-
How do you know he demanded? If you're going to complain about a book not being accurate then surely you should cite sources for your claims.

B-
Why don't you mention that in later years (after the war) the Satmer Ruv actually stated that he had been mistaken about Reb Arele and that he had that his original concerns were mistaken?

2-
"It was only Rabbi Kohn who emphasized anti Zionism in this community."

That is a lie. Reb Areke was also anti-zionist, to the point of refusing to answer Umain to a bruche said in the Zionist Hebrew accent. Anyone who learned his seofrim will know how much he campaigned for saying Umain etc, yet he didn't do so for a Zionist havureh kaddish.

Learn your facts. Just because he was nifter before 1948 doesn't mean he wasn't anti-zionist.

Pringle said...

"" The New Reality." This is all very interesting, as the Rebbe used this sort of thinking to justify girls' schools and drop his opposition to sheitlech. Yet when it came to Israel and Zionism he failed to see that after 1945 times had changed and there was a new reality. "

Again, what on earth are you doing here? Reviewing the book or giving us your own very biased opinions and hatred about the Satmner Ruv?

Boruch Ber said...

The shita hakedosha will not be debated on a chabadsker blog. The Rebbe was clearly right and now everybody can see it for themselves, unless they don't want to. This book should be learnt as a mussar sefer before Neila on Yom Kippur.

Anonymous said...

Please understand the satmarer rebbe was no neutral
figure . His status as a legitimate godol is in direct contradiction to the last lubavitcher rebbe's legitimacy. Their priorities regarding everything are converse on a very fundamental level.chabad chassidim sense this and if large sectors of the frum community de-radicalize the satmarer rov this means an acceptance of a set of values that reject all that the lubavitcher rebbe stood for. This ultimately eats into the l/r's popularity-and its universality. These are so neccessary for chabad's world view . In other words "The Rebbe"- in english- is a term that is very loaded for them. The very title of this book makes them see red

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

“Even more outrageous is a depiction on page 506 about the attitude of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik to RJT. Its states " You must know that since the Satmar Rebbe came to America every Jew has become more religious, myself included" It takes real chutzpah to write this. The footnote for this note is self referential no source less than Rabbi Dovid Meisels. Now that is truly unusual an author using himself as a source! As far as I can tell the Rav was religious prior to the coming of RJT, and that men like his father, uncle, and grandfather were more profound influences of his religious personality than a Rebbe he probably never met.”

I am somewhat skeptical as to the veracity of this quote. But not nearly as much as Schneur. I descend from a family of Litvishe Rabbonim that were in America in 1920. And I have little love for any Rebbe. But no one was in America in the 1930s and 1940 will admit that the arrival of the Satmar Rebbe (and other Hungarians) after the war herald a new era of greater punctiliousness in Kashrus and Tznius. Which is probably what R. Yosher Ber meant. Not claiming any influence.

snagville said...

I must say I am appalled at this review. This one makes the last one look tame. I am sick to my stomach. This is nothing if not ironic. Talking about the pot calling the Kettle black. Its like the megilla where Hamelech could mean Hashem, change some of the facts and you dont think that every time you say the Rebbe we could be talking about your Rebbe? Right, he got along with every one famously, he never said things about the Shver that bordered on Alice in Wonderland? & the greatest irony of all, Tzig started this blog to expose the hatred of the Snags against Lubavitch? This is pure hatred being exposed from your insides. This is 50 years of hatred coming out. uch.

Dovid said...

Re the impression RJT made on the Rav -- if I remember correctly, "The Rav Thinking Aloud" had some blips recording comments the Rav made about RJT and Satmar. (Again, I'm relying on a mazy memory of flipping through the book in Yerushalayim several months back.)

Anonymous said...

It has always bothered me the same issue as to why RJT did not go to visit the DP camps. But who am I to question the judgement of such a kdosh elyon.
Perhaps the reason was that RJT was aware that his nephew The Klausenburger Ztl has already established there a whole rebistiva in the camps, and RJT Ztl knew that if he will come to the camps than after two weeks his nephew will be left with barley a minyan (basically what happened in 1947 in Wiili) and he did not want to upset someone who has just lost his wife and 11 children RL. Again this is just a theory without any evidence of support.

dlz said...

Anonymous said...
Grainom
I think the Eida Hacharadis did it, because he married the beautiful convert Ruthie Blau

Um, you've got your Blau's mixed up. The one who married the convert was his son, Rav Amram Blau.

sam said...

Pringle- A book review is not a science experiment. It is meant to reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the reviewer. Why do you think the N.Y.Times advertises the names of its reviewers?It is completely appropriate and proper for a reviewer to offer his opinions.Shneur is doing what a reviewer should do-give the readers an idea about the contents of a book within the context of his own understanding of the book's subject matter.

abe said...

Why is everyone getting upset? In the end the big winner wiill be America with its great freedoms and enticements. The early generations were also frum and there is very little left of them. Now that we're a little more honest we're admitting[Mishpacha magazine] that many of our people have no emunah at all. It's just a question of when each "chug" has its moment of truth. You think this Satmarer "shite" will save their communities? Only ignorance can save them.In the end the empty faces in Willy and KJ will start to think.Anybody seen the news in the mideast recently?Wake up- the issue is emunah and spiritual discontent.

Anonymous said...

Boruch Ber-The shiteh will be debated here because it places in danger all the Jews living in E.Y.I believe Thomas Jefferson and James Madison pasken lehalacha that this is permissible in their famous sefer called the Constitution of the United States of America. Ever seen it?

Anonymous said...

Sam
Guys like pringle are used to read the paid reviews from all yiddish/english charadie publication. It is like the Badchan at the wedding , you provide him with the list of all your attributes, and you pay him. Then you sit like a imbecel listening to it with closed misty eyes,Du bist a Ferd.

Anonymous said...

Snagville
"he never said things about the Shver that bordered on Alice in Wonderland"
how much did you hear what he said about his father?
do some research and relax.

Anonymous said...

Anon
I love your theory, but I have 1 problem why did he come to the States (he was in Jerusalem already) and in the same Boro and the same district (11211) "Lehishtakaye" when his Nephew who was a Kedosh Elyon, Sar Hatorah, Builder of Torah, was established with a Yeshiva, Cheder,etc...
The Tzelemer Ruv had already a mikva , shechita ,cheder, yeshiva in that same zip code. Why didnt the so called architecht of Yiddishkiet go to a city like Chicago or even in the boro of the Bronx, to establish a bastion of torah their. I guess he was very good at taking other peoples people and put them on Shtriemels and label them anti Zionist.

An Ailemesher said...

In "Nefesh Harav", from R. Hirshel Shechter, he relates that Rav Soloveitchik said that the Satmerer Rov's argument that there was no hetter to sacrifice so many lives for a state, was a valid point. The Rov said that the hetter may be because so many Jews remained with Yiddishkeit due to the existence of Israel.

Anonymous said...

Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe he didnt visit th camps because he couldnt bear to look into the faces of the people he had ABANDONED???

I have heard from ex-Satmar families, how ggrieved they were with the Rebbe fleeing - with the help of a Zionist, no less - while they were left to literally burn.

This is no Kodesh Elyon. Say what you want about the FR and Ramash leaving, but they did it early, before any final solution was being put in place. Yes a war was going on, but there had been one 20 yrs earlier and you can write off their departure as just wanting to get out of a war zone. I have the utmost respect for someone like R' Elchonon who refused to leave his people when it became clear what was transpiring. For this reason alone, one can question EVERYTHING about RJT. What kind of manhig flees with his tail between his legs while his Kehillah is shipped off to die?

And you wonder why he didnt come back?

I did like that line earlier, how if he wouldve been in a forest, he wouldve fought with the trees. Hashem's name is 'Shalom' - this was not someone you think of synonymous with Ahavas Yisroel. Its all fine and well to live like your peasant ancestors and try to maintain it until Moshiach comes. But to wage physical war against everyone and everything that you don't agree with, to the point of endangering millions of Jews, lends even furher support that this was low-level leader made great by circumstance.

No output of Torah, no legacy of gmillas chassasdim or warm to every Jew - Talk about forgetting the ways of the Baal Shem Tov! When you think of RJT one thinks of kanoyus, anti-Zionism and not much else.

Anonymous said...

Abe - of course it is spriritual discontent! What does a yungerman in Willi have to look forward to? His Rebbe is fighting with his brother, none of the 3 or 4 or previous Satmar Rebbes (RJT, RMT, RA/RZL) have much to go by in the way of inspirational Torah - or any Torah for that matter.
Fist fights in shuls and ganrdiose weddings for Rebbishe einiklach only go so far.

Thats the biggest issue Scnneur missed here: RJT left his community NOTHING in the way of inspiration outside of hatred of Zionism. Say what you want about the Lubavitcher Rebbe - despite all the Moshiach non-sense that he may or may not have been a part of - he did leave an enormous amount of practical, inspirational Chassiduth and a legacy of messiras nefesh for Klal Yisroel, embodied by his Shluchim.

Are there 'off the derech' young people in Lubavitch? Sure. But that owed more to their not being a living Rebbe for 16 yrs now, and its not easy for an 18 yr old to be connected to a dead leader. But for a great majority of us older folk, there is what to be inspired by. I dont know if it can be said the same in Williamsburg.

Anonymous said...

" Anonymous said... Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe he didnt visit th camps because he couldnt bear to look into the faces of the people he had ABANDONED??? "

POTZ! There is not one sentence true in your verbal diarrhea

Anonymous said...

To: Anonymous said... Wednesday, March 16, 2011 4:01:00 PM

I have news for you (who knows it all!) 1) he lived in Israel for 1 year most of the time bed ridden with a serious illness, (don’t worry he had a nice minyan and yeshivah!! even when he davened late shacris) 2) he came to N.Y. and he davke had a very scarce minyan here (in the beginning) he already had purchased tickets to return to Israel but decided to stay here when the medina was establishd.

Anonymous said...

I saw in a memoir book from his biggest earliest Chasidim (Stienberger)that his rebetzin wanted to go to NY since she heard about the luxuries of life as Wash Machine and Driers,
It shocks you that these little materialistic scrap should make a difference on a Odem Godels leaving Israel.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Say what you want about the FR and Ramash leaving"
why is the Remash being discussed here, he was a full fledge private citizen,trying to live a private life.

Anonymous said...

Someone here promised to write an article proving that the Satmar Rebbe was not rescued by Zionists.

Such an article has already been written by Reb Menashe Fulop in Der Yid, and an English translation was published here:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/news/currentarticle.cfm?id=187

It's called "No Thanks to Kastner"

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

dlz

you're mistaken

Reb Amram and Reb Moshe were BROTHERS

Anonymous said...

I myself come from a Galityaner Belzer background. As a teenager I used to go a to a lot of Rebbes. Lubavtich, Klausenburg, Stetchin, Skulen etc. However I can not explain what was the experience at a tish in Satmar. Just to have a look at his face was enough to bring you a hirhur teshuva. I had a Klausenburger buddy who was continuously denouncing Satmar. I continuously tried to persuade him to come at least once to a tish. After many failed attempts he reluctantly came along. What shall I tell you, he just stared and stared at the Rebbe and his eyes could not have enough of it. From that incident he did not once open his mouth again on Satmar.

Now to all the idiots who from the comfort of their leather armchairs try to demonise the Rebbes who have escaped the War. Why do you only pick on Satmar? The Gerre Rebbe, the Belzer Rebbe, The Brisker Rov, Reb Ahron Kotler,all escaped in the middle of the war, plus many failed relief missions for other Gedolim and Tzadikim which tried to escape the fire. Yes their were Reb Elchonon Wasserman,the Sloinmer Rebbe, the Radizner Rebbe,Reb Menachem Zemba, Reb Shimon Zelciover, and many others who chose to stay with their people. This is both a complex ed Halcha and ethical issue which people like us can not begin to fathom. So please shut your mouth.

Anonymous said...

Anon
I saw the article of this demagogues,
Their hogwash story runs like that, that the money was from Charidem, it was originated by Rav Wiessmandel and Kastner just bugged his nose in. Kastner didn"t want to do it, because RJT was not a Zionist, he only did it because Dr Fischer told him to do it(obviously based on a bogus dream).
Thats why the Rebbe never thanked him, even tough he was a very good tipper, for everyone that did him favors.
Their is still 1 lie that Fulop and company has to fabricate, that the people that worked with Wiessmandel were all Zionists, his Zionistic cousin Gizi Flieschman and the Mizrachi guy Kraus.
But wait and see, they will take care on that piece of history, they will write some lies 3 times until it will indoctrinated as the truth

Zalman 770 said...

So many anonymous-es???
Posters are scared to even put a name to a comment.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"However I can not explain what was the experience at a tish in Satmar. Just to have a look at his face was enough to bring you a hirhur teshuva"
Interspersing, I know too many people that learned in Sands street and the Hirhurie Teshuva did not effect them, I assume their soul was too fargrebt, but you got a pure soul.
Galicaner Chochem,
nobody is interested to defame Rebbes or Gedolim that their goal was to rebuild Yiddishkiet in their way, but we are dealing with a movement that at their core, the have a hate dogma that Klal Yisroel never had,and it is not some Chasidic rivalry,
it is putting in danger Klal Yisroel,
have to end with a vort of your Rebbe RJT, that the Ungarisher is a tipesh because he thinks the Galicianer is a chochem veda"l

Anonymous said...

To: Anon
"I saw the article of this demagogues,"

Listen up is their any 'halacha' anywhere that someone with zionist believes shouldn't rescue a non-zionist from dead! And in reverse RJT helped many many 'zionist' individuals in their plights none of them refused his help ever! who’d you say they where wrong? More to the point read 'perfidy' written by a 'zionist' and you will see how much kastner loved 'zionist' subjects let alone RJT, your hate to RJT is obvious maybe you wish that RJT wouldn't survive? That’s what bothers you!

Anonymous said...

It is proper to discuss Rebbe's abandonment of hid hasidim. Maybe a good starting point would be the discussion of RYY ordering his people to openly confront the Soviet government (as opposed to R'Moshe being extremely careful not to do so). When RYY was arrested, they were able to raise enough pressure from abroad to free him and his family (less Sherlock Holmes novels). When his hasidim were arrested, they usually were shot or vanished in Gulag.

Anonymous said...

You are correct, but y harass other people when they are saved thru Zionist, It doesnt matter if he is thru the Zionist army, or a Zionist individual, a Roshe is a Roshe.and why cry that everyone is Farchapt, but me..

Anonymous said...

Anon
"your hate to RJT is obvious maybe you wish that RJT wouldn't survive? That’s what bothers you!"
as a non Satmarer I don't wish harm to nobody, not Sakmer ruv and not Ben Gurion

Anonymous said...

Anon 1;46
RYY was the only Rebbe that did not flee from Communist Russia, and stayed in the belly of the beast, and put his life on the line on a hourly basis,when every Rebbe and Rosh left that inferno.
He only left at gunpoint, and worked very hard to arrange mass exudos,
You are ignorant of the facts of this great man.

zvi said...

I love when the kanaim quote perfidy, written by a hollywood playwrite who intermarried and was a revisionist and thus tried to smear labor zionists. Ok, MR ANONYMOUS, You're right, we should all be talmidei jabotinsky

Anonymous said...

Anon “as a non Satmarer I don't wish harm to nobody, not Sakmer ruv and not Ben Gurion”

Ben gurion was a rosh hakofrim he desecrated the shabbos in public, who ate chaser who laughed on everything Yiddish… who endangered millions of peoples life, who has jewish blood on his hand, who enslaved am yisrael to nationalisim etc. etc.. we pray 3 times a day that people like him shall vanish from earth, but you don’t agree with what you self say in your prayers! What a hypocrite!

sam said...

We should all be talmidim of Jabotinsky because he more or less accurately predicted the end of European Jewry.How is it that Rebbes who davened and learnt all day didn't know what a free-thinking secular Jew foresaw with remarkable accuracy?Was there a bigger ruach hakodesh than that demonstrated by Jabotinsky? At least Rav Shteinman said he didn't know what the right approach was when questioned about the Gush Katif evacuation. At least "I don't know" is a good beginning.

uchony kotter 770 said...

Calling all KY Hassidimlech:
Any truth that peace talks are under way between Belz and Aron-Satmer?Dayan Ekstein negotiating on behalf of Belz? Helen Thomas to be Sec. of State in new Belz-Satmer coalition govt? Moscovy Ducks to be sold under 'ultramehadrin"blue and white label? Tomene public school to be turned over to Bnai Yoel as part of land for peace?Can someone send an answer to me via morse code?I'm in the basement of 770.

Anonymous said...

"sam said... We should all be talmidim of Jabotinsky"
why not talmidim of bilhom harasha he farsaw ...

otzi said...

The biggest problem with Ben Gurion was his not annexing the East Bank of the Jordan to the Jewish homeland. The shevatim who were there weren't erliche yidn? Many gediolim felt this way and I imagine the Satmarers are sympathetic to this view.

Anonymous said...

Jabotinsky tried to save millions of Jews from certain death and you compare him to Bilam Harasha?What klore daas torah do you go by?

farsampter moize said...

Ben Hecht's Perfidy was the only book quoted in my litvish yeshiva for their Anti-Zionist purposes.

He became an active Zionist shortly before the Holocaust began in Germany

He married Marie Armstrong in 1915, when he was 21 years of age, and had a daughter, Edwina, who became actress Edwina Armstrong. He was divorced a decade later by 1925, soon married Rose Caylor that same year, and remained married until Hecht's death in 1964. In 1943, they had a daughter Jenny Hecht, who also became an actress, but died of a drug overdose in March 1971, at age 27.

Hecht addressed Jewish militants thus: 'Every time you blow up a British arsenal, or wreck a British jail, or send a British railroad sky high, or rob a British bank, or let go with your guns at the British betrayers and invaders of your homeland, the Jews of America make a little holiday in their hearts

Anonymous said...

To: anon "I love when the kanaim quote perfidy"

It is not perfidy that was quoted rather live people testified in person at the trial of kastner (all documented in the israeli court archives, ) to the extent of what a murder kastner was! even to his own fellow zionists, but according to "you" he loved and rescued RJT and he should be grateful for that what,say what?

zvi said...

I am not anon -
Kastner murdered noone,the only question being if he was wrong in trying to save a few or he should of warned everyone else instead.(Arguing that he was wrong is basically saying that the Satmer rav should of been killed - I'm not schizo enough to understand your position). I personally think the animus towards Kastner is ridiculous, Hungarian Jewry was doomed and there were many other people who already warned Hungarian jewry about the camps. That being said, undoubtly many israelis were angry at him.

Perfidy is filled with vicious lies about how the labor zionists could of saved European jewry , which dovetails nicely into Satmar's ugly revisionist history.

Pringle said...

By the way, this whole RJT acronym is a gevaldige chutzpah!

How hard would it be to call him RYT? Why Joel?

Anonymous said...

Now they're quoting the Israeli courts in support. So when the Israeli courts try to protect a child from a sick mother it's because they hate Toldes Aharon, but when it's the show trial of Kasztner, whose verdict was overturned on appeal, it's torath emeth so that the Satmarer can dance becho botchu on chof alef kislev.

? said...

"Pringle said...

By the way, this whole RJT acronym is a gevaldige chutzpah!

How hard would it be to call him RYT? Why Joel?"

Have you never heard of Kiryas Joel?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"who endangered millions of peoples life, who has jewish blood on his hand"
to play devils advocate maybe the Rebbes and Rabonim that did not let their chasidim emigrate to palestine and they were all killed in the crematoriums, maybe they have blood of millions on their hand? It not only my personal view, the great Goan veKodesh of Pishtiyan, has that view in THE SEFER HAKODESH AM HABONIM SEMACHOI

Belz Fin a Mool said...

never heard of Kiryas Joel (is that what the Goyishe media calls it these days?), only heard of Kiryas Yoiel

lechuna said...

why didnt Laibel accompany his mother from Paris to NY? Didnt he want s'char Kibud Aim?
IMHO we dont hear enough about the cult of Laibel.

Anonymous said...

Another sore spot for chabad is that the litvaks are the
natural potential converts in their eyes. In speech,geographic origin
and many areas of heritage.
Nusach on yomim noyroim has
so many tnuois and shtiklach that are the same.( Simcho laartzecho etc)
The tension between the camps was legendary. But if anyone is going to make chasidus acceptable
it would be chabad(since they are intelectual equals with the
'menagdim' unlike their primitive- but quaint and amusing- chagas brethren)
And to think- here come the hungarians
to plant the flag in vilna ??! In honor of a rebbe respected
by the whole all star team they so love to hate
starting with RAK to R Y Hutner
Et al.
In addition the 80's were a time when chabad looked at satmar with smug satisfaction as the
Sigeter flailed about wildly in all
directions. The lubavitcher rebbe was taking
his chasidus to majestic heights and satmar
Was tanking. The L rebbe proudly refered to the
Mekurovim that bled out of the
Satmarer mess. The sigeter in his typical
vindictiveness had barry and his mom
come for a visit to his palace. Really looked
like an idiot. Gershon jacobson wisely
understood this was worthy of his front page.
The rebbe even lorded it over the saintly tzelemer ruv and his hechsher on kedem making
him be moche against satmarer violence. Midshaski rabonon vchulu vchulu..
The Lrebbe was enduring and rabeini yoel's legacy
seemed to be mud. (Yad chsidim al hoelyeyno..)
And now after chabad's disfuntional state
is common knowlege and for better or worse
Satmar is comprised of 2 huge competing but cohesive
worldwide empires With both rebbes being fetted by outsiders
from the fivetowns to lakewood to waterbury.R Z L gave the roshyeshiva in waterbury
a bekishe as a gift. The RY actually wears the thing !!
One can see how painful this
book and its title are to chabad. A chronic last laugh
issue.

? said...

Anonymous 10:43 PM - you make some good points.

Re "R Z L gave the roshyeshiva in waterbury
a bekishe as a gift. The RY actually wears the thing !!"

The RY there (R. Kaufman) has Satmar or similar roots, so it's not like they converted someone from Litvishe/Misnagdishe opshtam.

? said...

Does the book talk about Satmar and Tanya and Lubavitch-Satmar relations, or are they totally omitted/censored? Re the former, I recall reading that leaders/more mature ones have learned it, they just didn't want it foisted on the youngsters and every Tom Dick and Harry perhaps? Did the SR cite Tanya/Lubavitcher ideas in his writings and talks (not necessarily with attribution that would point to current Lubavitch)?

? said...

נאך א זאך, Waterbury Y. is an offspring of sorts of ישיבת רבינו חיים ברלין

The RY of MYRCB wears a bekeshe on Shabbos, does he not? So not a big jump for the Waterbury RY to do so as well.

? said...

https://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/39521/

Then, quite surprisingly, the Rebbe presented Rabbi Kaufman, Waterbury Rosh Yeshiva, with a Chassidishe bekeshe. Rabbi Kaufman, putting on the bekeshe, thanked the Rebbe and proudly shared that his grandparents came from the city of Siget, where the Rebbe's ancestors served.

Anonymous said...

if u mention r y tichtal z'l (eim habanim )he says halila to make a medina and transgress the 3 oaths...(find in index)

Anon3 said...

Some comments about something completely off subject but I felt the extreme need to do so.
Hirshel
Upon your recommendation, based on your list of sites in cyber world listed to the right,I decided to take a gander at the blog site called DovBear.I shouldn't have.
What I found was an individual and his slavish groupies whose take on Torah and yiddishkeit would make Moish Mendelssohn blush and remind me of the upper and lower Bible criticism of the 18th and 19th centuries.He denigrates and ridicules any part yidishkeit, concepts,minhogim,Chraidem, Chassidim and above all Chazal, that do not meet his so called standards of empirical proof.I hate to use the cliche ridden term "apikurses" to describe his antics,and I consider myself to be pretty open minded individual as you know, but they certainly match that description.Nothing remains sacred to him even though he claims to believe in Torah meSinai.He a nochosh arum mekol chayois hasodeh and wallows in his own hubris and arrogance.He has just published a book entitled DovBear On The Parshe.I shudder to think about the content of this "scholarly" tome.You are the bal hablog but
for the sake of "lifnai ivair" please,please remove his name from your list of recommended sites.

utzi said...

Anon.10:am The whole book of Em Habanim is about why it is ok for non-religious yidn to build eretz yisroel. Why did he support building the land-so the Araber can live there? What's the point of hundreds of pages of midrashei Hazal,etc. if not for a Jewish homeland? maybe you are referring to R Teichtall pre-holocaust? as is well known he changed his mind from kanoi to pro-settlement in E.Y.

Anonymous said...

farsampter moize said
thanks for your short biography of Ben Hecht.As a youngster hanging out in Willi, I remember that in middle of a Purim Tisch by Rav Lietner the tzadik hador on the Neturai Katra, was sitting with a white bekiche and Yossel Becher from the NK brought him the book Perfidy, he glanced at it and put it in his Buzem pocket .

Anonymous said...

Said
I don't know how much the SR quotes the Alte Rebbe, he uses a little Tanya to twist the concept of Roshe,
But the Yismach Moshe quotes alot Tanya and AR Sidur in his works. Muliple times he writes words like, "go and read there at length", or "it is sweet words", yoy see that he is very inspired. Maybe he uses these words on other Rebbes too, as Noam Elimelech, Avodas Yisroel etc.. I did not check.

Anonymous said...

Said
FYI,
there is a letter from the LR in his 1st year of his marriage to Slonim of Yerushaliem that he should buy him a Yismach Moshe. I am not putting any weight on it, it is just a snippet of info.

Anonymous said...

Anon 3
If Hirshel does not have the backbone to refute him heads on, he should at least not link to this Apikoras. There are unfortunately alot of immature kefira sites, and they have to be answered by someone in the know, but only if they are serous not cheap sarcasm.

Anonymous said...

Anon "who endangered millions of peoples life, who has jewish blood on his hand"
Re: AM HABONIM SEMACHOI Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:59:00 PM

I don’t easily tolerate fools but ignorant fools that a stretch, nobody stopped anybody from leaving Europe before or during the war to save their lives, certainly not millions of them who 95% never heard of of satmar rav z”l , what they said and believed than and now was that to emigrate to ‘palestine’ as a support for ‘zionisim’ is dangerous according to the torah, and to transgress on the ‘3 oats’ will bring a holocaust ! Unfortunately they the ‘rebbes and rabbunum’ where right!

I’ll also note, about 60 years past since the war and since nationalistic jews have a medina called Israel ‘tens of thousands’ of jews died already for this medina (with no end in sight rc’l) should even 1% of this number of dead jews occur anywhere in the world it would have been a catastrophe of great magnitude But when they die on the alter for a medina no outcry whatsoever! Did the ‘am habonim’ alert anyone on this endless danger rc”l ? !!!

Anonymous said...

I can't find it now, but I recall seeing a letter the LR writes to Ben Hecht, that he received the latter's book (not sure if it was Perfidy or another one?)..

If I find it, I'll be sure to post it here.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Unfortunately they the ‘rebbes and rabbunum’ where right!'
you have scientific proof, or Nussen Yosef Miezels told you?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"certainly not millions of them who 95% never heard of of satmar rav z”l "
sorry, I get my facts from Gelbmans Moshien Shel..., that the Rebbe was already the Manhig of Klal Yisroel in Urshive..

Anonymous said...

Anon
"‘tens of thousands’ of jews died already for this medina (with no end in sight rc’l)"
are their more people killed then the wars of the era of the Botie Mikdoshas? to have your country you have to pay a price, no other country on the face of the earth, was established with no blood.You have your rights to say Mochel Tovas and enjoy Brooklyn with your Jewish Apikoras Mayor and good pizza stores.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"The L rebbe proudly refered to the
Mekurovim that bled out of the
Satmarer mess. "
did you hear a word from the Rebbe in that direction?
Aderaba I would like to know

Anonymous said...

Sad to see what this discussion has denigrated into. Nu nu.

Bottom line: when one thinks of RJT, one thinks of kana'us, violence, opposition to other Jews of all stripes and his screed/"sefer" against the state of Israel. Is that what we have become, that this is considered 'gadlus'?

And when one looks at the peiros of this 'Chassiduth', one sees more of the same: brother fighting brother, literally, for control. This is what the Baal Shem Tov came for? Really?? Where is the anivus? The shalom? The Torah? THE AHAVAS YISROEL????

How much longer do these Hungarian-Romanian showmen expect to keep their followers living the lives of peasant Jews from Europe with nothing more than outlandish tisch and family simcha spectacles to inspire?

Lastly: it is very important to understand the historical context of the Besht. Eastern European Jewry were roiling from the double trauma of Shabtai Tzvi and Tach V'Tat. This wasnt a time for kanayus or elitism. It was a time for appreciating every Jews, realizing their well being is whats most important to Hashem, and bringing them closer to Judaism. Yes, he had many great scholars as disciples, but yet the common theme in most stories is the care he had for other Jews and the importance he placed on inspiring their Jewish practice through Chassidic/mystical thought. Yes, there are many silly miracle stories about him, but thats to be expected. But when one thinks of the Baal Shem Tov, one thinks of the founder of a movement that, at his passing, emobodied both Torah and Ahavas Yisrael.

His son didnt inherit the greatest of all Chassidic seats. Nor did the Maggid's son inherit his. Being someone's son didnt necessarily entitle anyone to anything. But by the third or fourth generation, the emphasis on inclusiveness and meritocracy had started to be replaced by dynasties, it was more important who your father was then who you were (with few exceptions). And now we're here. Can you point to ONE single current Chassidic leader who would compare favorably in substance to any Chassidic leader of 150 or even 100 years ago? And spare me about # of followers being the indiciation of anything - living in a land of great health care, govt $ and no progroms + marrying at 18 will ensure a large following.

Its depressing. A great movement reduced to clowns in shiny jackets fighting with their siblings or putting on fancy weddings for their inbreeding with other dynasties. Sad.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"tens of thousands’ of jews died already "
they are anyway not Jews, so whats your problem?
Look in al Hageula in the name of the Rema"k that they are not Jews

Anonymous said...

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/759017/Rabbi_Aaron_Rakeffet-R othkoff/JH_24_-_The_Satmar_Rav_

Rabbi Rakeffets weekly lecture this week.

Wrong numbers said...

"about 60 years past since the war and since nationalistic jews have a medina called Israel ‘tens of thousands’ of jews died already for this medina"

Your figures are way off.

Anon3 said...

"There are unfortunately alot of immature kefira sites, and they have to be answered by someone in the know, but only if they are serous not cheap sarcasm"
The problem is that DovBear has a seizable following I tried challenging him on two different so called "absurd chareidi customs" which are ridiculed on his site , not by sarcasm,but by bringing proof from the Gemorah,Rishonim,Achronim and otherwise but red tzu der vant.His and others responses were "Their based on Pagan beliefs","They (Chazal) had a poor knowledge of health concerns" and other goboldiy gok.He does have one steady protagonist who is on his back constantly, "The Bray of Fundie" but he is a lone voice in the wilderness. Nevertheless you gotta give him (The Bray of Fundie) credit.He doesn't give up in spite of all the intimidation.
Hirshel
Thanks for removing the link.You did your good deed for the day (amongst others).

Anonymous said...

sitting yesterday by Megila Reading, I was thinking, according to the Veyoel Moshe, that is obsessed to create the 3 oaths of the midrash for the yesoid of kol hatorah,
who gave the Jews the right to kill the gentiles in Shushan, was it not Hisgarus BeUmoth.they were in Galuth,could be thats why a partial of the Sanhedrin were mad at Mordechai, he acted like the Misnachlim/ Mizrachi.

Anonymous said...

The problem with Jews not leaving at the time of the Rebbe Rayatz was not the Rayatz's fault.

There was a Chossid who was told to pass on one message from the Rebbe and instead passed on another one while he got his own tuches out.

He used to go to the Rebbe every year to do tshuva for the deaths he caused with his aveira.

Shaviv said...

1. As pointed out, Moshe Blau and Amram Blau were brothers.


2. The 'poisoning': Moshe Blau, an incredibly interesting character, died on board a ship in 1946, He was on his way to fundraise in the USA. The ship docked at Messina, in Italy, to allow him to be taken to hospital. He was ill when he boarded ship, and the symptoms sound as though it was acute food poisoning - possibly an intestinal infection. The story - incl photo of him on a stretcher being carried off the ship - is in the back of "Al Homotayich Yerushalayim". HOWEVER -- most Charedi sources attribute the deliberate poisoning -- if it was such -- to Neturei Karta, not to the "Zionists"!!! It is astonishing that the book attributes it to the Zionists. Why should they poison him? At that point Aguda was firmly in favour of statehood. The statement in the book about Blau's testimony at the St James Conference in 1937 is nonsense. He declared there that Aguda was firmly supportive of the Balfour Declaration. The proof is that Aguda (in the person of Itche Mayer Levin) signed the Declarationof Independence in 1948 - something that most Agudaniks today prefere to forget. "Grainom" -- the first comment here - is, I think, mixing up Blau and De Haan. In De Haan's case, individuals connected with the Haganah admitted responsibility. Finally, in the book is an incredible story of how his travelling companion suddenly found help in dealing with the awful situation he found himself in -- but I will leave it to cognoscenti to look it up.....

Anonymous said...

the story about the alter skulener rebbe saying that going blind was a punishment for going to the kosel (written in "der yid"was refuted by his longtime gabbai r' yekusiel weiss (who just passed away)and he even went to the offices of "der Yid " to hand deliver them a letter stating as such and after refusing to print it , many weeks letter they put in a correction buried in the newspaper saying that we spoke about a big person saying that he said a punishment came to him because of something he did we were told that it is not true we stand corrected (reading it you would have no idea what they were talikng about)

Anonymous said...

Shaviv
I don't believe in none of the poison conspiracies, but thats for sure that he had big internal fights on the ears of Rav Duschinsky, the Rav that Reb Moshe crowned. He was very hurt on all the shenigans of the NK people, if he made a deal in the morning with the Rav on the stance that the Aguda should take, and in the afternoon the scenario changed with a Kol Kore on the street saying different. It was on a daily basis that he had to withstand this. He was too a straight gentleman for these lowlifes.
They are revising history for the last decades, with nobody to refute them, it is very sad that nobody from the Blau tribe refuted them yet. The family has a lot of talent. 1 think that they can not spin yet, is the hesped that Rav Duschinsky gave on Reb Moshe, he is crying as if the Chasam Sofer died.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10;40
thanks for your info, can someone scan that letter, please.
on the other hand these Gelbman and Co. fiction writers are portraying the old Skulener as a Satmar chosid still from Krulla, and that Satmar Ruv was the Malacch Hamoshia for the Skulener from Rumania.
Ein Kaitz LeDivrie Ruach, it is as true as the dream of Kastners mother.

Anonymous said...

to: Anon 10;40
"Ein Kaitz LeDivrie Ruach" "it is as true as the dream of Kastners mother"

do you know that kastners mother didn't have a dream ?

Skulener rebbe lived in CH barely had minian, untill he moved to WMSB'G ! and was always supported by satmar rebbe and his chasidim financially.. do you know otherwise ?

before the war he was the leader of the agudah in romania, after the war he was outspoken in speech and writings against the agudah and their shtik! do you know otherwise!

Anonymous said...

Anon
"do you know that kastners mother didn't have a dream ?"
she definitly had dreams as 99% of healthy women dream on a nightly basis. But this dream definitely did not happen since I don't believe in Sipurie Tzadikim as the Satmar Ruvs anti Chasidic philosophy goes,to deny every sipur that did not happen to the Yismach Moshe.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Skulener rebbe lived in CH barely had minian, untill he moved to WMSB'G ! and was always supported by satmar rebbe and his chasidim financially.. do you know otherwise ?"
I was by him in Willi every Friday night by the Tisch, and still had very weak Minyan, I remember him renting the Satmar yeshiva Ketana for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur with 40 people davening their, 70 % non satmarer. Till the last year or two when he was total hijacked by some Satmarer and then they started coming.
All this have noting to do with the historical facts.

Anonymous said...

So you believe in 99% dreams of healthy woman! But you don't believe in a story of a dream that satmar rebbe himself told it! Is it because that woman was of the 1%?
That you don’t believe in their dreams, or is it because the stamar rebbe told that dream so it became a story not a dream.. And since satmar rav didnt believe in 'baba masious' and you being a true stamar cusid therfore by definition you don't believe it, but not because it isn't true, so I can still believe it right?

Anonymous said...

Anon: 4:30:00 PM
"All this have noting to do with the historical facts."

The rambam says a 'liar' who lies verbally will also lie in his writings! Is the opposite also true?

Anonymous said...

Rambam source please?

Anonymous said...

"So you believe in 99% dreams of healthy woman!"
I don't believe in their dreams, I just know that naturally 99% of the human race do dream every night.

Anonymous said...

their is a famous dream of a parent that told his son something about Mashke and Tikun at a Yartziet, I think Rav Wiess of the Eida has the story in his Teshuvas.
The Satmar Ruv denies it and said a drunk dreamed it.So why believe all this dreams, plus, why believe that Satmar Ruv said it, is their a letter from him, or a tape?

Anonymous said...

To: Anon, Wednesday, March 23, 2011 5:00:00 PM
“ Rambam source please? “

Rambam - egeres timon, mamar alef, simon 185

Anonymous said...

To Anon: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 5:09:00 PM
“The Satmar Ruv denies it and said a drunk dreamed it “
Is there a letter from him denying it, or a tape?

Anonymous said...

Anon
you are correct, no proof, no story, lets be consistent

Anonymous said...

which print of Igroth Rambam are you using?
Kafiah, Shilas?

? said...

The question here is how this book came about.

I suspect Mr. Cohen wanted to spread the anti-zionist gospel. Not that R. Meisels wanted to translate it into English.

That would tell you what is the main impetus behind the effort.

Anonymous said...

guy with Rambam quote
I still did not find the quote in the letters of Yemen

Is it fiction or non fiction? said...

The book, in the section about the Satmar paper Der Yid, says that the local papers before it, even the Morgen Zhurnal which served the frum oilam, were mechalel Shabbos.

However, the Morgen Zhurnal did not have a Shabbos issue, unlike the Forverts for example.

So are they making things up to make it look there was no frumkeit pre Satmar, as they would like people to believe, or what?

Is the book fiction or non fiction?

Where does emes fit in here?

Anonymous said...

you are correct
but unfortunatly people buy their lies, since there is no answer from the other side.Its already 7 deacades that these people are going on with their lies unanswered

Is it fiction or non fiction? said...

The book is also way off on the info re the Gruss fund for Jewish education. The date it says it was established looked way off to me.

So if it can't get simple facts straight, with the Morgen Zhurnal, and the Gruss fund, a cloud hangs over other info in the book as well. One wonders how accurate it is.