Not that they don't "co-exist" now either, it's just that it's all they do... Like any two ethnic groups co-exist in a city today... They don't live together like they really could and should. But that's for another time. In the meantime enjoy the article, and if you're from Melbourne, and have anything to say on the topic, I'd love to hear your comments - both on the article and on the matzav there today.
Early Days in the Establishment of Adass Israel Congregation
26 comments:
Any relation to Rav Yitzchok Feigelshtok, Rosh Yeshiva of Mesivta of Long Beach?
Hershel, Please elaborate on today's characteristic dividers between these two kehilas,
Nice article.Where was it published?
Btw, can any Aussie from Melbourne tell me how to pronounce Hotham St(mentioned in the article and site, if i'm not mistaken of todays Adass).Is it hot-ham or is the "th" pronounced as in "this"?
yes its TH as in botham the famous aussie cricketer.
It's Hotham : as in Ho 'Th' am - your second option
Note: Rabbi Soloman is an interesting man, highly academic and has written several thesis. I believe that his Doctoral thesis was on 'The Rebbe'. It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of the Tzig on this work.
In terms of the Melbourne Adass and Lubavitch communities there has been significant separation between the two communities over the years. Up until the late 1970's there were marriages between the two communities and many members of both communities used to attend shiurim and tefillos in both shuls (there are still a few older men who are wheeled between the two shuls on Shabbos)
The creation of the Lakewood satellite Kollel in the early 80's cemented the growing rift between the communities. The Lubavitch community decided to open a Kollel 'moments' before the Lakewood Kollel began and Hashkafically those who used to support and integrate with the Chabad community moved shifted support to the Lakewood Kollel.
Up until recently, the wider communities of Adass Yisroel & 'The Yeshivah' (Lubavitch) used to hold each others Rabbonim in high regard, both Rabbi Groner and Rabbi Beck.
HOWEVER: With some of the more strange shifts in both communities away from 'the middle' ground, they have drifted apart.
not so sure about last sentence of anon, Rabbi Telsner seems to be held in high regard by Addass and he is invited to deliver shiurim eg shavuos night etc, something that I'm unaware of Rabbi Groner having done.
http://www.ladaat.net/siteimages/fl_4f462dc91aca9.pdf
Anonymous of 5:26, Botham a famous Aussie cricketer? Heresy!!
The next Anonymous is distorting facts and painting the Adass as a homogenous community, far from it.
Kollel Menachem was being planned and worked on before any other Kollel, it's start date was only brought forward.
Adass is made up of Satmar, Belz, Vishnitz, Munkatch, Skulen, etc etc, some oberlanders, Nusach Ashkenaz in the main shule, but also has the other extreme of not so committed people but are part of the original families and maintain a strong affiliation. It's not uncommon to see some of the men walking in short pants for eg, and some wives don't cover their hair. But are tolerated because the kehilla comes first, and they are originals.
The misnagdish kollel is seen as a common enemy by some.
Quite a few would come to Rabbi Groner's shiurim while he was giving them.
Eventhough there has been natural polarisation, they still come and collect regularly and everyone comes to Yossel Gutnicks functions
goes to show how much i know about aussie cricket .... but anyway
there were always many from the older generation that floated easily between the 2. reb hirshel klein is one that comes to mind but many others of that generation found it easier to daven at both places than the younger generation today who have no tolerance for anything but "eigener" these days
its this attitude that has led to right wing extremism from both sides ... to the detriment of the entire community
Anon 10:47 "Its this attitude that has led to right wing extremism from both sides ... to the detriment of the entire community
It's reality that as the communities have grown in size, peoples' social circle tends to be more homogenous. IMHO, this probably contributed more to the divide between Chabad and Adass more than anything else. Although RYG and RMA were very close personally, as their respective communities grew, they had less time for cross-pollination.
I think this is also why don't see major "rebbishe" chasunas these days, where i.e. a bobover ainikel will marry a satmar ainikel. Most of the rebbelach are sticking to their own people today. As their own communities have B"H grown exponentially, it is easier to stick to your own vs. making some great marriage and dealing with the fallout.
The growth creates the rightward tilt, since men darf nisht kainem becomes the rallying cry. so u may be confusing the cause and effect.
Aussies:
How large is:A)The shomer shabbos community in Melbourne?
B)The Chabad community
C)Adass
D)Other chareidi communities.
Thanks in advance
this is for yom tov in di vochen.
From a Skvere who lives in Monroe:Google translation.
Egg yesterday= אייער נעכטען
Empty egg= ליידיג גייער
I packed you by the story= געפאקט ביי די מעשה
Its doing itself on tables & on benches= סטוט זיך אויף טישן און בענק
I whistle u on how big you are= כ'פייף אויף דיר ווא גרויס דו ביסט
Its holidays in the weekend= ס'איז יו"ט אינדערוואכן
I have u in attic= כ'האב דיך אין בוידעם
I'm laughing myself out= כ'לאך מיך אויס
I'm driving on Mondroe= כ'פאר אויף מאנרא
If u want to remember, piggy it over= אויב די וואלס געדענקן חזר איבער
I'm gonna put u over!= כ'וועל דיך איבערלייגן
Stop being such an empty walker= הער אויף זיין אזא ליידיגייער
Ripped off animal= אפגעריסענע חיה
Chopping a life= האקט א לעבען
Its me good= ס'מיר גוט
Its worth a slap in the ground= ווערט א מכה אין די אדמה
A date and a radish= א פייג אין רעטעך
Its not risen and not flew= נישט געשטויגן אין נישט געפלויגן
Talking to the thing= רעדט צו דער זאך
Ur twirled well= ביסט גוט פאדרייט
Its turning itself a world= ס'דרייט זיך א וועלט:
Very approx numbers of the Melbourne community (IMHO)
1400 Families
Chabad 500 fam
Adass 500 fam
Mizrachi and other shomer shabbos 350 fam
Misnagdish Kollel 25 fam
Ger 10 fam
missing 5
The numbers of Melbourne Orthodoxy seemed to me,an American to be different.
I thought Addass was a 200 to 250 family Kehilla,Chabad I really am not sure, but 500 families would sound reasonable.I do believe that the Modern Orthodox is the largest community as I believe that Mizrachi shul is the largest REAL shomer shabbos shul, and is one of a number of Modern Orthodox shuls , also, I thought that non Addass,non Lubavitch, Chareidim would number much more than 25 families, maybe even 2 to three hundred.
Would love to hear what any Aussies with real, local info can tell us.
Thanks.
While the communities may not daven all that much together they all support each other's businesses and services. I personally have business dealings with all of facets of the Melbourne Jewish communtiy.
Also Botham was an english cricketer!
Lubab is fighting everyone has no שייכות with no one! except with the
המורידים ולא מעלין
" Lubab is fighting everyone has no שייכות with no one! except with the
המורידים ולא מעלין"
sorry for my ignorance,
but where is Lubavich in a fight with anyone?
Yom Tov in der Vochen
your analysis is skewed.
Adass has grown to be a large kehilla.
Mizrachi is certainly not the largest Shomer Shabbos shule, not in numbers irrespective of your definition of Shomer Shabbos.
Your counting of 100's of Charedi families would be double dipping, these are included in the other totals. The kollel doesn't have it's own community only people that are members elsewhere.
500 Chabad families in Melbourne?
Don't believe it!
I would say that following the rule that you belong to the Shul where you davven Shabbos morning - and counting genuine Shomrei Shabbos families (not simply those who while they may walk to Shul, carry a mobile phone in their pockets and may turn on the TV at home etc)
Mizrachi (all minyanim) 100-120
Adass 230-250
Yeshiva 130-150
770 35-50
Ohek Devorah 40-60
Heichal (R Donnebaum) 60-70
Merkaz Hatorah (RY Kohn)80
Beth hatalmud 40-60
Ger 25
The rest maybe 50
(I am unsure about Caulfield)
And talking about Shemiras Shabbos, those who attended the levayeh of the late Shabsi Kornwasser zl last Sunday would have heard Reb Yanky Barber talking about how the niftar - at often a huge cost to his business - would never seek any heterim for 'selling the business' for Shabbos and YT.
Sadly these days even some of the shensteh and shpitz families in Chabad have allowed themselves to do this, and often not even attempting to follow some of the basic rules required. Eg, not employing Jewish workers and managers who are there on Shabbos. (I was particularly upset some time ago when hearing an ad on the radio for a retail business owned by a family from very prominent Chabad stock, announcing the hours open on Saturday. (S'hot im nit geholfen. The business went down the drain anyway.)
500 Chabad families is about right. My friend told me 450, but he's been gone for 15 years, so those years would account for about 50 new families just by organic growth.
The standards, however, for being considered "Chabad" in Melbourne are quite low. An oisvorf in CH is a gantze chossid in Melbourne.
כ'פאר אויף מאנרא-
Did someone forget the "witz" at the end of Mondro?
Der Shygetz: "כ'פאר אויף מאנרא"
בלעם after he cursed out with his ברכות everyone he said הנני הולך לעמי ?!
Or is it like יתרו after קבה"ת he said אל ארצי ואל מולדתי אלך
no page 5 missing here
Hashomer Shabbos said...
..those who attended the levayeh of the late Shabsi Kornwasser zl last Sunday would have heard Reb Yanky Barber talking about how the niftar would never seek any heterim for 'selling the business' for Shabbos and YT.
Sadly these days even some of the shensteh and shpitz families in Chabad have allowed themselves to do this, and often not even attempting to follow some of the basic rules required. Eg, not employing Jewish workers and managers who are there on Shabbos.
===
This is a very sore subject almost never discussed in Melb's Chabad shuls. So many people are guilty - either they themselves or their parents and in laws where they work.
maybe it's time for the rabbonim - even those who are involved - for a price - in issueing these shameful 'hetterim' to do something.
It was pretty embarassing when nearly all the big bame Chabad rabbis came out against the idea of a kosher eruv, but at the same time had no problems with their baalei batim opening their business on Shabbos!
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