Thursday, April 19, 2012

ליטא, רייסן און ליטוויש פולין

Prof. Hirshe-Dovid Kats' map of Old Lithuania.

It seems like "יום השואה" has become all the rage lately. Even VosizNeias had a little thingie on the top of the page to commemorate it. Not to mention that this has become a new פעולה among many Chabad Shluchim. Not that remembering is a bad thing - it's more that this once a year thing is a bit much. A bit too little, rather. Those of us who have been affected - either by 1st or 2nd generation - never cease to mourn. Having said that; one day is still better than none... So here is my little contribution to the cause, despite it not being from my neck of the woods. Prof. Katz has created a very nice map of the Old Lite, which is why people call Brisk part of ליטא even if it was recently very far from there and much closer to "mainland" Poland.


Anonymous said...

Kiyodua, the Rebbe was against commemorating the Shoah during the month of Nisen. Supposedly, he said that whatever commemoration for the Shoah can be done on Tishe b'Ov. [Indeed, Reb Shlomele of Bobov did that with his piyut to Churban Eyrope.] Surprising that Chabad shluchim would do otherwise. Commemorating Yom HoAtzmous is still officially treyf in Lubavitch - so why is this different?

Thanks for the maps. They are "Laytish Hirshe Dovidl" - vd"l.


דוי הסר said...

Tzig: "Old Lite, which is why people call Brisk part of ליטא"

I'm not to familiar with that part of the world neither do i care I wouldn't mind if it would perish and sunk in to the earth or ocean
אם כל היקום!, הם ונשיהם ובניהם ובנותיהם וכל אשר להם

I always wonder when we have now a free world why will people return there. Acting like they are back in town from a long vacation!!!

Especially Ukraine to Byelorussia in the Baltic states of Lithuania & Latvia where the entire Jewish populations was wiped out! הש"י (even those people didn't heed to the גדולים warnings against the transgression of the שלש שבועות..!)

So why go there for any reason let alone establishing new yidishkite there?!ימש"ו

We curse out and commerate
המן אשר בקשׂ לאבדי! , לבן הארמי אשר בקש לעקור את הכל!
פּרעה שגזר על הזכרים !
But this אשמדאי who succeeded not בקש! Are there any acts or words of commemoration that we can or should do?! I don't think so!

Zionism have a reason for all this יום השואה propoganda it has intrinsic value for them monetary and otherwise But us frum Jews nothing will do.

דום לד' והתחולל לו, ונקיתי דמם לא נקיתי

BTW, The zohar writes that a place where a Jew was killed is a dangerous place to go there, so I would think a place where 6 million where killed is certainly not a place to visit, and should of be a forbidden continent at least as much as Spain was for hundreds of years!!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

REMINDER: no anonymous comments please. Choose a name. Your comment will not be published, Mr. Zohar.

momk said...

Are the Chabad Shluchim celebrating Yom Hashoa, or are they providing tefilin services to those Jews gathered there?

JB II said...

דוי הסר
"The zohar writes that a place where a Jew was killed is a dangerous place to go there"

kindly give us the source for this.

דוי הסר said...

JB II said... kindly give us the source for this

זוהר בראשית: זימנא חדא הרג ע"ה את ת"ח א' בדרך במדבר, ומההיא יומא כל מאן דעבר אח"כּ בההיא אורחא ופּגע באותו מקום, ניזק באותו מקום..וכו' מובא בספר יסוד יוסף, על פרקי אבות ע"ד הקבלה

ACK said...

To better understand where the borders are of "Lita", it is worth pulling up a map of the "Grand Duchy of Lithuania" from the 1300s (Wikipedia has one). As we all know when it comes to dividing lines in the Jewish world the recent maps make no sense. Brisk was part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, not the Kingdom of Poland.

Same idea as the need to pull up an old map of the Austro-Hungarian empire to understand who is a "Hungarian", since the majority of Orthodox Hungarian Jews did not live in the country called Hungary after WWI (rather in Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Austria). It also helps understand who is a "Galicianer" and who is "Polish" (Congress Poland).

schneur said...

Brisk was not really part of Jewish Lita. The Jewish population was made up of Litvishe , Volliner and Polish Jews. The rav was obvioulsy a Litvack. In volume 1of the Brisker bio there is a list of shuls and you see there was a Kotzker kuiz a Trisker kluiz etc. The unter klei kodesh shochtim , soferim etc were mostly chassidim according to the Brisker rav bio.
The borders of Lita (Jewish) were not firm. Places like Lomzha, Zambrow (home of Chief Rabbi Goren) Bialistock had Polish and Litvishe Yidden.
Warsaw and Lodz each had hundreds of thousands of litvakes who came ther eto work in the large factories and constituterd the largest element of the non Chassidic olam.They had their own shuls and until after World war 1 controlled the rabbinates. teh election of Rav nmenachem Ziemba in the warsaw rabinical council in the 1920s marke dthe first time an overt chasid was elected to the Vaad. In Lodz the same was true Rav Eli Chaim was a starke Litvak.
Real Lita was in the areas about Vilna, Kovna Shavel Minsk Slutzk, etc etc. There really was no difference between Reisen and lita the same clothing food, Yiddish, educational system etc etc except that in Lita there were few Chassidim while in Reisen ther ewere many Chabadnikes.
In the town my late mother came from there was no chasid to be seen , while my fathers town not all that far away but in those days a hipshe mehalech had a hssidic majority. Of course there the Chabad peopel would look at the beize wunder of a visiting Banshak from the Koidenov dynasty with their tenuoth geshrein etc.
In fact Chabad was much closer to their Misnagdische brothers than to their Polish Volliner or Galicianer chassidic compatriots. The only question in my mind is the average Chabad person was closer to hisMisnagid neighbor or toa Stoliner or Slonimer my guess is to the Misnagid.

mordechi said...

schneur ACK said... ----

Thanks schneur very informing, still a little confused but I'm advancing on my east european/russian studies nevertheless, I'll comment on:

"The unter klei kodesh shochtim , soferim etc were mostly chassidim"
It seems that's simillar to what's hapeining today here in America and elswhere, Why so? I'll not elaborate, except Now unter & uber klei kodesh are mainly chasidim.

ACK: "since the majority of Orthodox Hungarian Jews did not live in the country called Hungary after WWI" same can be said here in America like Texas or California belonging to Mexico or Spain, or Israel belonging to Turkey and England?

"In fact Chabad was much closer to their Misnagdische brothers than to their Polish Volliner or Galicianer chassidic compatriots"
That's also true here in America They are closer to litvishe especially in their שם־לשון־לבוש than to other chasidim.