Friday, July 13, 2012

רבי בערל סר מן הדרך. זעהן אויף צוריק קען מען אויף "צוואנציג צוואנציג." נאך 60 יאר וויל ער גיין אויף צוריק























Discussion Here

I'm sure R' Berel means well, but to compare the Kanoyishe mosdos to the the Litvishe is silliness. For several reasons, both financial and practical. For one, all the Kanoyishe mosdos combined don't equal what they have in Bene Beraq alone, meaning that there's no way in the world that tens of thousands of children, bochurim and yungeleit can be supported from a 'Keren Hatzoloh' like organization. Not to mention the girls schools and seminaries. Sorry. As it is the shnorr is non-stop, imagine if that increases ten or twenty fold. Banish the thought! How much can American Jews already be expected to give? Then there's a more practical issue; The good L-rd blessed the Satmar and its satellites with more gevirim per capita than any other group. And if not the most gevirim then for sure gevirim that are willing to part with large sums of money. G-d bless them, they give. There's no way in heck that the Litvishe gevirim - whoever they are - will support all those Yeshivos, schools and kollelim that now decided to also only be on the take from individual donors, not from the "Treifene Medineh." They simply don't have the השגות that the אונגארישער געבער has. Maybe the Hungarian has a more guilty conscience and feels more compelled to give, whatever the case is, they give. And if no Litvishe go to work then there are no rich people, they'll have to rely on the Hungarians, who are up to their eyes with their own mosdos. Unless they go after the non-religious donors, which is difficult to do with the attitude that they have about frei people.

So why do we say that Reb Berel סר מן הדרך? Very simple. All the Gedolei Yisroel from the Brisker Rov to the Chazon Ish to Reb Isser Zalman to the Ponovizher Rov and Rosh Yeshiva - to you name it, they all said we should take money, so how can Reb Berel doubt them all? And yes, I put the Brisker Rov on the list because we all know that he allowed them to get Gov't funding, even if he didn't take any himself. Only if he leaves the path. (They may have put limitations on how much funding to take, but it was still a good chunk of change.) Which may be Why Reb Berel met Reb Yoel Kahan some 21/2 years ago. He's not with the Olam HaTorah anymore. He's some kind of new Satmar-Litvishe-Brisk hybrid that decides for himself to be Litvish but Kanoyish. Otherwise he seriously doubts whether or not the had the Daas Teyreh or at least the "veite kook" that the Satmar Rov seems to have had now. But if you ask me he'll probably regret ever giving this interview, once he sees what this causes.

That's beside for the fact that it just looks bad that they only reason they'll wean themselves off the funding from State is because they ask for something in return - which is not even REALLY the case. For over 60 years, as long as they were exempt from Army service the money was good, now all of a sudden it's no good anymore? Did we miss something here? a new קבלת התורה perhaps? This law would come into effect even if the institutions took no Government funding. The way people in Israel see it it's about doing your share, whether or not you're supported by the ממשלה. Rich kids also go to the army. I doubt Reb Berel is saying that they should cease taking ANY money, even for individuals, like ביטוח לאומי, קופת חולים, or other stipends that families get per child. Because then he'd be condoning mass starvation... So what would not taking money for מוסדות accomplish, very little if anything. Maybe it would make them look even worse in the eyes of the irreligious. But maybe we shouldn't care since the Charedim will soon be the majority in the Medineh anyway... So the bombastic headline, made to make Satmar look good, perhaps? or everybody else look not so smart? It's nonsense. As far as what will eventually happen in ארץ ישראל? Time will tell. We'll talk about that soon, אי"ה.

36 comments:

berel said...

I don't think R'Berel meeting R'Yoel had anything to with....anything.
R'Yoel or more accurately the people around him wanted him to visit and R'Berel said yes.Was he supposed to say no? R'yoel visited R'Shteinman too

dovy in j said...

"we all know the rov said to take money"? huh" we all know or is this something that only you know?

anyway, all in all, this was not one of your smarter posts.

anon said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Yz-GjDlKg&feature=youtu.be

pitputim said...

I think what happens in Eretz Yisroel is linked to what happens in Medinat Yisrael, but for some reason Hirshel won't say that.

Dave said...

Could you please put Reb dovids soloveitchik
Drasha on your website

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Dave
One of the links in Thursday's post has the link to the droshoh

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Please explain, Pitputim

Barrel said...

Your statement about the Brisker Rav saying yeshivos can take money makes you sound like your on some type of medication. maybe acid? Are you serious about what you wrote??
Gosh....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

not just acid, but also meth, PCPs, LSD, Crack, Cocaine. You name it. Calling me names ain't gonna change the facts that everything done was done according to the Brisker Rov. He kept his shittos to himself. He knew that banning them from taking money was totally impractical, and he was a very practical man.

pitputim said...

There seems to be this great reticence to use the word "Medinat" or "State of" Israel on the part of Chabad people?

OrthodoxJew said...

Ran Moshe Shmuel Shapira zatzal

once asked the Rav about taking, from the medinah

the Rov answered "its not osur to take" "but a yeshiva that does not take will always have"

As told by RMSS

Rav berel salaveichik was present

this is also wrten in mehlers book

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I guess you're right. Why does this bother you so? It's not like we're screaming that they don't exist.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

but, Pitputim

why is this the only thing you take from this post?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

and based on that Be'er Ya'akov took, I guess.

Dave said...

Thank you but I mean like a downloadable option like you always have . This goes to scribe so it can not be downloaded it only sends links
I want to have it on an email for someone who does not have internet just email.
Sorry for the bother .

StamADeyah said...

Completely tangential: When will we see an American godol comfortable enough to be photographed in just a shirt?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Dave: look around on the scribd page and you'll see the "download" option

Dave said...

Thanks but not on noon mobile sites

pitputim said...

I take a lot more from the post, and similar ones to this. My thoughts on this matter are coming together. I simply made an observation, which in context, I found revealing.

Thurston Howell III said...

Brisk is split on whether to take from Keren Hatzulah. AJ does not take from them because he doesn't want to have to farentfer anything to those Hungarian gypsies.

Tzig is correct about R' Velvel ztl being a practical man. If I recall correctly he refused to answer the Mir in Kobe, Japan, about two days Yom Kippur, because he held to be machmir but didn't want to impose on anderra.

Brisker said...

Any "hybrid" involving Brisk at Ponevizh would only be inclusive of the Rov and before. Ponevizh are big misnagdim of Brisk from R' Berel & onward. Rav Schach always advised against learning in Brisk even if it required leaving when already there.

tibi lotzi said...

Howell
"Brisk is split on whether to take from Keren Hatzulah. AJ does not take from them because he doesn't want to have to farentfer anything to those Hungarian gypsies."
I think that u r mistaking, AJ does take from Keren Hatzola...As I heard from a Lipa Lefkowitz grandson...
Are the Ungarishe Ungfersene from Flatbush less Gypsies.. they are the 99% of his benefactors..

tibi lotzi said...

Pitputim


"There seems to be this great reticence to use the word "Medinat" or "State of" Israel on the part of Chabad people?"
Did you ever see the answer on this question from the Rav of Boston....he is the so called leader of the Mo movement.

tibi lotzi said...

I think that reb Berel had in mind a other Satmar shita. The Satmar Rebbe was anti kolel he just opened it because some Talmidie Chachmim of his, started to graze in other fields, and he needed this few talmidie chachomim desperately. But his idea was very pragmatic learn a little chok in the morning and go make gelt....All this Berel Pavarsky problem would not existed in the the satamr universe, By 19 years most Satmars are done with yeshiva kolel... and out in the parnosa world. The state would not be able to threaten the kolelim because they would not exist.. so there is exactly where Horebbe MiSatmar tzodek ...

Thurston Howell III said...

Something may have changed but 20 years ago the raid was R' Dovid takes from the Keren but AJ does not.

The Flatbush Ingrisha are NOT "99%" of AJ's funding. Dee bist meshiga? Outside NY & Montreal, you hardly find any Hungarians. And in NY he gets plenty of money from Poilishe, and a few Litvishe & Yekkishe.

When the Hungarians give money grada so their sons can get in or get in quicker to shiur, AJ makes sure they are the last to get in.

tibi lotzi said...

Thurston
"Outside NY & Montreal"
you mean Cleveland,Chicago and LA too...

pitputim said...

The "Rav of Boston", HaGaon R' Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik ז’ל referred to the Medina in context, and wasn't afraid to say "Medinat Yisrael"

litzlotz said...

Medinat yisrael is an oxymoron. Pitput, you know that.

litzlotz said...

Since when did boston ever have a Rov of the city?

What was his relationship with levi yitzchok Bostoner?

tibi lotzi said...

Piputim
did you look for the letter I mentioned.. I think its in the back sod hayochid vehaychad....

Avi said...

Pitputim,
How did Medinat Yisrael get into this discussion?
While you mention it though, Chabad (the official one, well there is no official chabad, but the gezhe with the long beard types)does this awkward dance, claiming the Rebbe was more anti Zionist than Satmar, while at the same time embracing lots of what a Medina can give:Chiefly, lots of $$ for their schools in Israel, which are NOT part of the Chareidi system, so they are basically fully funded, many rabbinic positions which are paid for by the Medinah, security overseas, paid for by the Medina.Embracing of settlements and of course Hebrew, cuz Yiddish is basically on life support in Chabad.

The Amcha Lubavitcher (basically the vast majority) is a full fledged Zionist Jew with heaps of pride in Medinat Yisrael.
So we have an interesting dichotomy here

tibi lotzi said...

Avi
"claiming the Rebbe was more anti Zionist than Satmar"
I hard that the Satmar Rebbe claims to be a shomer shabos veyom tov and he lets his wife cook kreplech on yom tov and he and all his chasidim eat it till they burp...
I guess there us a torah out there that says what is osser and what is mutter.....

mechu said...

rb,
don't you think you'd better watch what you let thru?
a guy just called r'kotler a terrible name

Miss Manners said...

"cook kreplech on yom tov and he and all his chasidim eat it till they burp..."

Now if Tzig gets a video showing a bunch of Satmar behaymos sitting around greppsing over kreplach, that would really be an exclusive and push his ratings through the roof.

Zeir sham said...

A disapointig interview... Even though he has the right ideas , the crummy interviewer botched it up...

Zeir sham said...

All these weekly shmats are against all the rabbis... No wonder they are lausy...