h/t Babruisker
מילא בימי סדרי הישיבה איז דא א תירוץ אז ס'איז "ביטול תורה," אבער חול המועד אד"ג? וואו היילט מען זיך? איין ג-ט ווייסט
55 comments:
yossel
said...
Hirshel, You may have a point, but I"m curious if you did any basic HALACHIK research into this, or is it eigeneh sevoros?
Meinyan leinyan... I always had a kasheh on the Lubavitcher hanhogeh of eating before davening.Now make no mistake, the Rebbe quoted Shulchan Oruch that a hungry person is considered as a "choleh" and may eat before davening.Everybody also knows what the Zemach Zedek said to his daughter in law who wanted to daven early so she could eat. "Better eat so you can daven than daven so you can eat".Here is the question:If you daven at 9:30, 10 and 10:30 (depending on weekdays and shabbos and shabbos mevorchim)you will be hungry! But,maybe daven at "normal" hours so you don't get hungry???!!! OH, one minute you need to learn Chassides before davening,right????? So do what they do in other chassidishe yeshivas where they get up early and go to sleep early. For baalei messirus nefesh, this has to be an easy one,no?
Such righteous indignation! FWIW, I agree with your criticism, but how come you are so tolerant of other people's deviances from halacha? (Think: not sleeping in the sucah...)
Yossel "You may have a point, but I"m curious if you did any basic HALACHIK research into this, or is it eigeneh sevoros?" I assume that if you accuse Hirshel, then u r a shtikel Yodeah Sefer, Reb Ovadia has a long teshuva against this Litvish Hanhoge that it is against halacha, go find it.. and stop your Blah Blah
Along the lines of what Tzig wrote, R' Moshe Rubin of Montreal would play on the words of the Mishnah איילונית אינה מוליד, that הייליניש אינה מוליד. In other words, "haste makes waste". He was known to daven b'arichus so that was a life-motto for him.
He also would connect this 'vort' as a punchline to the mayse with R' Shmuel Munkes, who was meant to buy milk fr his wife, had a shaala in chassidus and meanwhile traveled to the rebbe for an answer. When he finally chapped to do the errand, he ran up hastily to give his wife the milk, only to slip and have them all broken at doorstep...
I guess the brains in Russia function better at night hours then the Hungarians, Btw, The "Fartogs" in your so called chasidshe yeshivas are on its way out, its slowly fading...
Formerly Known as... "(Think: not sleeping in the sucah..." how can you say on a Rema and Torie Zahav, deviance of Halacha,? Watch your words, Did u sign already the Ksav Hiskashrus to the Nosi Hadoir of BB? I am just checking...
Ben Eliezer, Thank you, I will look it up later. I do recall reading Rapoports article in Kovetz Heoros samech gimmel I think, where it seems that someone who is just hungry and is not going to be davening very long and with great kavoneh, should NOT be eating before davening!SO the halachik parameters are not the wild rantings that Sholom Ber Wolpe, wants us to believe, which have zero halachik basis (rapoport is debating wolpe in this article) Although i consider Rapaport a lubavitcher apologist, he writes well in Hebrew and English and is a nice, logical talmid chochom, probably a vestige of his pre lubavitch days, where his head was set somewhat straight and this girsa deyankusa has stayed with him.Though in his case, "yoisif daas yiosif machoiv", where he needs to do somersaults to farentfer bizarre lubavitcher customs, or even, actually claim that some have no halachik basis, where even apologetics can't go, as opposed to the "other" ignoramuses, who make up stuff as they go.
Ben torah in name, Your case, unlike Rapoport, is that you already come from a krummeh Hungarian backround ala satmar or whatever other yeshiva you spent time in, and now you have added the lubavitcher krumkeit to your repertoire. For example, you use R'Ovadia Yosefs teshuva to criticize Bes Medrash Govoas custom of hoiche kedisha.Now let's say, i used R'Ovadia to criticize lubavitchs psak that shatelach are the BEST hair covering, would that make sense? I guess in your krimmeh kop it does, but no worries i have a lot of patience and we'll try and straighten your head out a bit, oib Hirshel lozt
If it adds anything to the Yiddish conversation in Weinreichs dictionary,Ailen-to rush is spelled with an aleph with no variation and heil=with a heh is to heal
Yossel what a honor to converse with a straight shooter lamdan and a real amkan Reb Ovadias Teshuva, (which you never knew exist) I did not quote for Reb Ovadias conclusion, it was just noted for all the rich info that he brought down on that subject..so your shayter is just your blah blah I envy Reb Chaim Rappaport for getting such a high marks from a Lamdan like you...
Yossel "Although i consider Rapaport a lubavitcher apologist," although your intent is to try to belittle Reb Chaim As an apologist,as if its a insult not a badge of honor which it really does not matter much, since hakol lefi hameviesh vehamisbiesh. Reb Chaim is in good company of the gedolai yisroel hoamitiem, as the Imrie Noam,Munkacher Ruv, Nizniver ruv,Kuzhiglover Ruv,Divrie Yatziv, Reb Tzodak and Rebinie Hakodash baal Likutie Sichas...
Yossel "you quites r ovadiya because you know it has zero to with the subject" Thanks for yor patience for willing to reducate me, But did you find the teshuva?
Ben Torah in Name only: I hear you. I'm certainly no apologist for BMG or the Bnei Braquers,and my "hiskashrus" to anyone/anything is rooted in "ובו תדבק ". It just gets a little nerve racking that HT only gives a pass to his friends from Crown Heights (he clearly believes that there is some sort of higher truth that they are privy to as opposed to the rest of us "plain jews"). I am not aware of anyone that could identify who the "nasi hador" is/was, whether currently or in recent times. It would be fair to say though, that there is a lot more propaganda in place identifying HT’s “rebbe” as “nasi hador” than anyone from BB. BTW, the REM”A does not say anywhere that one should not sleep in the sucah. He is melamed zchus on those that didn’t do it and he uses SENSIBLE reasoning – not a convoluted “boich sevara” that any quasi-intelligent 2nd grader would and should laugh at.
"the Rebbe quoted Shulchan Oruch that a hungry person is considered as a "choleh" and may eat before davening"
Multiple Lubavitchers told me the lomdus in Chabad is al pi a Rambam that it's better to think about davening while eating earlier than to think about eating while davening.
Formerly Yodeah.. "BTW, the REM”A does not say anywhere that one should not sleep in the sucah" I never said the Rema said that nobody should sleep in the sukah, lets be clear on that. I just quoted the Rema, to proof a point that it was the minhag of most klal yisroel not to sleep, as you see also from the Rebinie Monoach who was a Rishon and lived in warm climates. Why is it nogeah, because it shows that the Rebbe who was Ish halocha, did not wake up to tear out a mitzva that Klal Yisroel was doing, as stopping to eat Matzo the first night of pesach. Opposite, he was the only Rebbe that Halacha is so important to him, that he tried to find a sliver of source in halacha, and he is maligned for it, more then the other Rebbes who did not even try.... Majority of klal yisroel did not sleep, when I was a kid non of my neighbors all wore shtriemels did not sleep in their back yard sukkas.... So the Rema gives a reason, the Torie Zahav gives a reason, and so do many achronim, which is btw, halachicaly problematic, since a sukkah that's not good for the night is a problem by day too. I will not go in to the pilpul now.
Formerly known as.. "not a convoluted “boich sevara” that any quasi-intelligent 2nd grader would and should laugh at." As they say... Every Sevora needs a friend, and I add, every "Boich" has a Former Yodeah.... I know plenty lomdim non chabadniks, who do like the sevora....
Formerly known ". It just gets a little nerve racking that HT only gives a pass to his friends from Crown Heights " he gives no pass for CH, you need a report every morning how many people said Yechi in 770,he can not put it up every day, mu suggestion dont read him and watch your nerve system...he has too much nerves...
what do you mean it has no korbonos it goes from brochos to mizmor shir? how many pages are you skipping? so how could you say then kaddish before mizmor shir?
Okay anon who's worried about karbonos, let's go through all the halachos chasidim feif on and litvishe feif on.
chasidim: yoshon, zeman tefillah, eat before davening, sleep in sukkah, holding hands by mitzvah tantz, sukkah on shemini atzeres. feel free to add more. you can make the list for litvish. don't forget that they eat before tekiyas shofer.
dovy you can not throw at the Chasidims door every Minhag Ashkenaz.. Non Yoshon flour was used by all
Ashkenazic jewry , A base for the heter was written by the Bach (I hope you know he preceded chasidim with a more then a 100 years,) and then the Pnie yehoshoua (the first) so it has noting to do with chasidim.. eventough there are chasidim that were machmir. Even in the Lita most Jews did not hold the Gra on chodush, as the Mishkenois Yakov writes in a teshuva
dovy the same is said on shemini atzeres, Alot ashkenazin as the Korban Nesaniel, Chasam sofer and others did not eat in the sukah all the meals, By them the chumra of the Gra to eat all the meals and sleep is a chasash baal toisef, there were also rishonim that did not sleep,(check reb Tzodaks teshuva) and so was the minhag by them not to eat on shemini atzeres..
Dovy " holding hands by mitzvah tantz, " this is old Minhag Varmiezoh, there was much more happening by askenazic weddings that you can imagine next time check all your source before you accuse and write
In old siddurim, there were not many korbonos printed. It is a new phenomena to print all the korbonos that it is 'tov lomar'. The hoicha kedusha is a minhag in most yeshivos. The Beis Yosef brings it as minhag Yerushalayim, but he strongly disagrees. Lakewood basically kept up the minhagim in Kletzk, except when they didn't remember them. Minhagim were not such a big thing by Litvakes until recently when the Hungarian's started influencing them. Mirrer yeshivos also say a hoicheh kedusha, including beis hatlmud and Mir. FWIW, Rav Henkin used to be moicheh on this too.
accurate critic, the chassidim don't keep yoshon because they believe the besh"t said he had a dream (or alyah neshama) where he was told the Bach is the truth in Heaven.
formerly known as yodea sefer: "It would be fair to say though, that there is a lot more propaganda in place identifying HT’s “rebbe” as “nasi hador” than anyone from BB." obviously, thats cuz there these rabbonim dont even have a fraction of the amount of people that chabad does so they just didn't manage to be as noisy they're just simple losers...
55 comments:
Hirshel,
You may have a point, but I"m curious if you did any basic HALACHIK research into this, or is it eigeneh sevoros?
Meinyan leinyan...
I always had a kasheh on the Lubavitcher hanhogeh of eating before davening.Now make no mistake, the Rebbe quoted Shulchan Oruch that a hungry person is considered as a "choleh" and may eat before davening.Everybody also knows what the Zemach Zedek said to his daughter in law who wanted to daven early so she could eat. "Better eat so you can daven than daven so you can eat".Here is the question:If you daven at 9:30, 10 and 10:30 (depending on weekdays and shabbos and shabbos mevorchim)you will be hungry!
But,maybe daven at "normal" hours so you don't get hungry???!!!
OH, one minute you need to learn Chassides before davening,right?????
So do what they do in other chassidishe yeshivas where they get up early and go to sleep early.
For baalei messirus nefesh, this has to be an easy one,no?
ציג, איר דארפט יידיש לערנען.
היילט און איילט איז ניט די זעלבע.
היילן איז רפואה, איילן איז מאכן שנעל.
כנראה אז איר רעדט ענגליש א גאנצען טאג!
איילט זיך צו פאר איר וועט פארגעסן די שפראך...
Absolutely ridiculous.
Tefila is as much a part of yiddishkeit as Torah.
This is unheard of in most frum places.
Shocking and upsetting.
יידיש רעדנער
איך רעד יידיש בעסער פאר אייך, במחילת כת"ר
אין אסאך פלעצער האט מען אזוי געזאגט, דהיינו היילעניש
Such righteous indignation! FWIW, I agree with your criticism, but how come you are so tolerant of other people's deviances from halacha? (Think: not sleeping in the sucah...)
Dude, if your weekday shmonesre would take half as long as theirs you'd have a kasha. Average @ bmg is 9 to 12 minutes.
What do they do for 10 minutes?
@leroy they count beads
Yossel
"You may have a point, but I"m curious if you did any basic HALACHIK research into this, or is it eigeneh sevoros?"
I assume that if you accuse Hirshel, then u r a shtikel Yodeah Sefer,
Reb Ovadia has a long teshuva against this Litvish Hanhoge that it is against halacha, go find it.. and stop your Blah Blah
Along the lines of what Tzig wrote, R' Moshe Rubin of Montreal would play on the words of the Mishnah איילונית אינה מוליד, that הייליניש אינה מוליד. In other words, "haste makes waste". He was known to daven b'arichus so that was a life-motto for him.
He also would connect this 'vort' as a punchline to the mayse with R' Shmuel Munkes, who was meant to buy milk fr his wife, had a shaala in chassidus and meanwhile traveled to the rebbe for an answer. When he finally chapped to do the errand, he ran up hastily to give his wife the milk, only to slip and have them all broken at doorstep...
Yossel
I guess the brains in Russia function better at night hours then the Hungarians,
Btw, The "Fartogs" in your so called chasidshe yeshivas are on its way out, its slowly fading...
Formerly Known as...
"(Think: not sleeping in the sucah..."
how can you say on a Rema and Torie Zahav, deviance of Halacha,?
Watch your words,
Did u sign already the Ksav Hiskashrus to the Nosi Hadoir of BB?
I am just checking...
Speaking of eating before davening, see this great resource recently compiled by R. Chaim Rapoport on the subject:
http://www.teshura.com/teshurapdf/Rappaport-Epstein%20-%20Shevat%2011%2C%205773.pdf
טייערע ציגעלע,
גרינג צו שרייען איך קען בעסער, איר דארפט דאס אבער באווייזען.
דערוויילע דערקען איך דאס ניט אין אייער שרייבעריי.
במחילה.
Ben Eliezer,
Thank you, I will look it up later.
I do recall reading Rapoports article in Kovetz Heoros samech gimmel I think, where it seems that someone who is just hungry and is not going to be davening very long and with great kavoneh, should NOT be eating before davening!SO the halachik parameters are not the wild rantings that Sholom Ber Wolpe, wants us to believe, which have zero halachik basis (rapoport is debating wolpe in this article)
Although i consider Rapaport a lubavitcher apologist, he writes well in Hebrew and English and is a nice, logical talmid chochom, probably a vestige of his pre lubavitch days, where his head was set somewhat straight and this girsa deyankusa has stayed with him.Though in his case, "yoisif daas yiosif machoiv", where he needs to do somersaults to farentfer bizarre lubavitcher customs, or even, actually claim that some have no halachik basis, where even apologetics can't go, as opposed to the "other" ignoramuses, who make up stuff as they go.
Ben torah in name,
Your case, unlike Rapoport, is that you already come from a krummeh Hungarian backround ala satmar or whatever other yeshiva you spent time in, and now you have added the lubavitcher krumkeit to your repertoire.
For example, you use R'Ovadia Yosefs teshuva to criticize Bes Medrash Govoas custom of hoiche kedisha.Now let's say, i used R'Ovadia to criticize lubavitchs psak that shatelach are the BEST hair covering, would that make sense?
I guess in your krimmeh kop it does, but no worries i have a lot of patience and we'll try and straighten your head out a bit, oib Hirshel lozt
If it adds anything to the Yiddish conversation in Weinreichs dictionary,Ailen-to rush is spelled with an aleph with no variation and heil=with a heh is to heal
yes, but heilenish is used by many, many, many thousands of people. I don't, but figured I would this time
Yossel
what a honor to converse with a straight shooter lamdan and a real amkan
Reb Ovadias Teshuva, (which you never knew exist) I did not quote for Reb Ovadias conclusion, it was just noted for all the rich info that he brought down on that subject..so your shayter is just your blah blah
I envy Reb Chaim Rappaport for getting such a high marks from a Lamdan like you...
Yossel
"Although i consider Rapaport a lubavitcher apologist,"
although your intent is to try to belittle Reb Chaim As an apologist,as if its a insult not a badge of honor which it really does not matter much, since hakol lefi hameviesh vehamisbiesh. Reb Chaim is in good company of the gedolai yisroel hoamitiem, as the Imrie Noam,Munkacher Ruv, Nizniver ruv,Kuzhiglover Ruv,Divrie Yatziv, Reb Tzodak and Rebinie Hakodash baal Likutie Sichas...
ben Tora.
you quites r ovadiya because you know it has zero to with the subject
but as i said i ha ve patience even for moshe pinkt kapoyers
Yossel
"you quites r ovadiya because you know it has zero to with the subject"
Thanks for yor patience for willing to reducate me,
But did you find the teshuva?
I assume you know Rav Yaakov K's explanation of this custom by explaining the difference between a bais medrash and a bais knesses?
Why did you omit it?
Dovy in Nj
Does Ponovezh or brisk Yerushaliem have that minhag too?
Ben torah and sakran and ur other kiniyem,
why do u insist in making a fool of urself?
We are discussing bmg, not brisk or ponivezh or hotzenplotz.
can't u speak tzem Zach,ever?
yes telz and I think Ponovezh (not sure). not brisk.
שמעתי מאאמו"ר שליט"א
only during 10YT was there a full mincha with חזרת הש"ץ in Telshe
Hirshel
"only during 10YT was there a full mincha with חזרת הש"ץ in Telshe"
Like abstaining of Pas Akum
Dovy in NJ
Lakewood was a new yeshivah, But Telz started it Europe?
And even Rav Getzel never complained about it.
Sakran, I would assume so since Telzers are very makpid on minhagei yeshiva. But I can't testify on that.
dovy in j
It was never written about this minhag, as how was the minhag in Tiferes Yerushaliem by Reb Moshe?
I see Yossel is busy locating Reb Ovadias teshuva, for a change he looks in a sefer....
Coming to the defense of the Tzig
http://www.verterbukh.org/
page 259
² היילן
זע
איילן
thank you, baalbatish!
Ben Torah in Name only:
I hear you. I'm certainly no apologist for BMG or the Bnei Braquers,and my "hiskashrus" to anyone/anything is rooted in "ובו תדבק ". It just gets a little nerve racking that HT only gives a pass to his friends from Crown Heights (he clearly believes that there is some sort of higher truth that they are privy to as opposed to the rest of us "plain jews"). I am not aware of anyone that could identify who the "nasi hador" is/was, whether currently or in recent times. It would be fair to say though, that there is a lot more propaganda in place identifying HT’s “rebbe” as “nasi hador” than anyone from BB.
BTW, the REM”A does not say anywhere that one should not sleep in the sucah. He is melamed zchus on those that didn’t do it and he uses SENSIBLE reasoning – not a convoluted “boich sevara” that any quasi-intelligent 2nd grader would and should laugh at.
"the Rebbe quoted Shulchan Oruch that a hungry person is considered as a "choleh" and may eat before davening"
Multiple Lubavitchers told me the lomdus in Chabad is al pi a Rambam that it's better to think about davening while eating earlier than to think about eating while davening.
Formerly Yodeah..
"BTW, the REM”A does not say anywhere that one should not sleep in the sucah"
I never said the Rema said that nobody should sleep in the sukah, lets be clear on that.
I just quoted the Rema, to proof a point that it was the minhag of most klal yisroel not to sleep, as you see also from the Rebinie Monoach who was a Rishon and lived in warm climates. Why is it nogeah, because it shows that the Rebbe who was Ish halocha, did not wake up to tear out a mitzva that Klal Yisroel was doing, as stopping to eat Matzo the first night of pesach. Opposite, he was the only Rebbe that Halacha is so important to him, that he tried to find a sliver of source in halacha, and he is maligned for it, more then the other Rebbes who did not even try....
Majority of klal yisroel did not sleep, when I was a kid non of my neighbors all wore shtriemels did not sleep in their back yard sukkas....
So the Rema gives a reason, the Torie Zahav gives a reason, and so do many achronim, which is btw, halachicaly problematic, since a sukkah that's not good for the night is a problem by day too. I will not go in to the pilpul now.
Formerly known as..
"not a convoluted “boich sevara” that any quasi-intelligent 2nd grader would and should laugh at."
As they say... Every Sevora needs a friend, and I add, every "Boich" has a Former Yodeah....
I know plenty lomdim non chabadniks, who do like the sevora....
Formerly known
". It just gets a little nerve racking that HT only gives a pass to his friends from Crown Heights "
he gives no pass for CH, you need a report every morning how many people said Yechi in 770,he can not put it up every day, mu suggestion dont read him and watch your nerve system...he has too much nerves...
and about saying the korbonos at shacris or at mincha why don't the litvaks say it? bitul torah?
Anon
Nusach ashkenaz has no Korbonas,
why should they say it?
what do you mean it has no korbonos it goes from brochos to mizmor shir? how many pages are you skipping? so how could you say then kaddish before mizmor shir?
Okay anon who's worried about karbonos, let's go through all the halachos chasidim feif on and litvishe feif on.
chasidim: yoshon, zeman tefillah, eat before davening, sleep in sukkah, holding hands by mitzvah tantz, sukkah on shemini atzeres. feel free to add more.
you can make the list for litvish. don't forget that they eat before tekiyas shofer.
In MTJ there is a hoiche shemonesra every day for mincha!! This minhag dates back to the days of Reb Moshe zt"l.
PS Please correct my post: I meant "hoiche kedusha".
dovy
you can not throw at the Chasidims door every Minhag Ashkenaz..
Non Yoshon flour was used by all
Ashkenazic jewry , A base for the heter was written by the Bach (I hope you know he preceded chasidim with a more then a 100 years,) and then the Pnie yehoshoua (the first) so it has noting to do with chasidim.. eventough there are chasidim that were machmir.
Even in the Lita most Jews did not hold the Gra on chodush, as the Mishkenois Yakov writes in a teshuva
dovy
the same is said on shemini atzeres,
Alot ashkenazin as the Korban Nesaniel, Chasam sofer and others did not eat in the sukah all the meals,
By them the chumra of the Gra to eat all the meals and sleep is a chasash baal toisef,
there were also rishonim that did not sleep,(check reb Tzodaks teshuva) and so was the minhag by them
not to eat on shemini atzeres..
Dovy
" holding hands by mitzvah tantz, "
this is old Minhag Varmiezoh, there was much more happening by askenazic weddings that you can imagine
next time check all your source before you accuse and write
In old siddurim, there were not many korbonos printed. It is a new phenomena to print all the korbonos that it is 'tov lomar'.
The hoicha kedusha is a minhag in most yeshivos. The Beis Yosef brings it as minhag Yerushalayim, but he strongly disagrees.
Lakewood basically kept up the minhagim in Kletzk, except when they didn't remember them. Minhagim were not such a big thing by Litvakes until recently when the Hungarian's started influencing them. Mirrer yeshivos also say a hoicheh kedusha, including beis hatlmud and Mir.
FWIW, Rav Henkin used to be moicheh on this too.
accurate critic,
the chassidim don't keep yoshon because they believe the besh"t said he had a dream (or alyah neshama) where he was told the Bach is the truth in Heaven.
i know all those sources by the way.
and the litvak don't wash negel vasser in the morning at the bed carrying the Tomah with them!!!
anon 10:23,
where did you hear that? did you just make it up?
they say that the vilna goan said that when the ger zedek was killed al Kiddush hashem he took away the Tomah ..
formerly known as yodea sefer: "It would be fair to say though, that there is a lot more propaganda in place identifying HT’s “rebbe” as “nasi hador” than anyone from BB." obviously, thats cuz there these rabbonim dont even have a fraction of the amount of people that chabad does so they just didn't manage to be as noisy they're just simple losers...
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