Berl, CH speaks:
פסוקי תנ"ך און מאמרי חז"ל מלאים מדבר הזה און מ'זעט אז ביטול עצמו איז א עיקר גדול אין תורה, און אויב אז דאס פעלט יעמאלט ווערט אן אמת'ער צמצום כפשוטו ר"ל פון "אין אני והוא יכולים לדור"
און עס איז זייער אינטערעסאנט אז אן אמת'ער ע"ז פון "אויסוואקסען א גדול" זעהען זיי (די מתנגדים) ניט. אבער דאס וואס חסידים למיניהם זיינן משבח זייערע רביים צו פיל – א זאך וואס האט אייזענע יסודות אין מאמרי חז"ל – דאס באדערט זיי יע, און דאס איז ביי זיי אן עבודה זרה!
ועוד, דער וואונטש פון א אידישע טאטע-מאמע מימי קדם איז געווען אז א זון זייערער זאל אויסוואקסען "א תלמיד חכם", דאס הייסט א תלמיד פונ'ם חכם, אזא וועלכע איז צוגעבונדען צו חכמים און וועלכע לערנט זיך פון זיי, ניט אזוינער וואס זיין גאנצע "שאיפה" איז צו בויען דעם "זיך" און ווערען "אליין א חכם" – א "סאם סאפאזשניק" איך בין אליין א "שוסטער", עכ"ד
Turning the tables on your debate partner is always an exciting development, so let's see how the zealots will respond to this one. We need to brace ourselves for a vicious onslaught of lies and deception, but we're ready, willing and able.
45 comments:
Hirshel before we start, try not to repeat Berls mistakes.For example: End of first line 'a yokor godol in toroh'?He hopefully meant an 'ikker' godol in torah.
I wrote "yikkor" which is correct since the word has a komatz. And prirem, even if your 'ros-yesive' pronounces it as "ikker" it is still wrong.
HT, since we are at it, please also correct the following:
זיינע יסודות should be אייזענע יסודות
but do correct the spelling of yikkor from a yud to an ain
Berl, did you mean 'ikkor' with an 'ayin' or 'yokor'?
HT, I am sorry for not typing in Hebrew, but right now the only way it works on my machine is through cut-and-paste. I will iy'h fix that soon.
Sorry did not see that Berl had already realized he was wrong.
pirem, you're getting on my nerves. I did NOT "realize that I was wrong" - my transliteration of "yikkor" was perfect [though HT did misinterpret it because transliterations are hard to real]. But you are wrong - the word is not "yikkEr" but "yikkOr" - and you still don't realize it. I can't see any hope of having a more substantive discussion with you.
"rest your cases and good ridden"
It is really amazing! These self-proclaimed "bnei teiroh" don’t even qualify to be members of min hammedabbeir!
I am not a misnagid, actually im a vishnitzer, but after i saw these websites about sokolvsky, i see where the misnagdim are coming from
I have been following this blog for a while i think i am going to blogout too it seems that the above posts are indeed true those websites
http://www.rebbegod.blogspot.com/
and
http://moshiachtv.blogspot.com/2006/01/rebbegodblogspotcom-faq.html
speak for themselves the debate is over, misnagdim you may rest your cases, we are indeed dealing with closet sokolovskys "like berl and his ilk" like someone so brilliantly paraphrased,
anomy2 i think you are right let them blog to themselves "fin heint bisz mogin"
HT
The truth must hurt it seems like he is deleting all the posts that mention any hint to soklovskys websites ,
HAve you been exposed!!
vishnitzer, you have issues with sokolovsky, go to his site/ and communicate with him. No one here is going to waste their time discussing that nutcase.
But I will say this (once): the very real aveidoh zoroh of a misnaggeid is faaaar worse than anything that lunatic says. Why? Because while he is disturbed, Teiroh does compare tzaddikim to G-d, Yirmiyah Hannovi does call Moshiach "Hashem Tzidkeinu" and nowhere in maamorei chazal do we find admonitions against adulation of chachomim and their aggrandizement (farkert - it is encouraged). But, as I said earlier, self-aggrandizement is a CLEAR ISSUR and REAL AVEIDOH ZOROH. And the shitoh that is kol kuloh devoted to promoting self-aggrandizement of the worst kind is nothing short of chazzer-kosher-fiselach meisis umaddiach. And while Sokolovsky can only attract a few crazies, the "yeshiva-gedeilim" - rabbim challolim hippilu, veeid yodom netuyoh, r"l.
btw, HT is not deleting all comments with sokolovsky links, only the ones posted by 'anonymous' posters or those containing vile language. He has no reason to be ashamed of something he has zero connection with. Only real morons will use sokolovsky in their argument with HT. And what use is there in worrying about morons?
Who was mishaneh?Well, look at the tefillin of the man in the photo.He is not wearing tefllin in the Lubavitch way.
HT, please correct:
[ in בויען דער זיך , it should say דעם instead of דער ]
thanks
Berl that was a great post about "self-aggradizement",I was sure you were talking about the chabbadske rebbe z"l who suffered from this ailment.
By the way, not just has berl been exposed as a closet sokolovsky SHR"Y. but he is Hershel Tzig himself hidding under that berl surname.
You loser keep on talking to yourself!
re: Tefillin "in the Lubavitch way".
An acquaintance once mentioned to me in passing that as a Kid he wore "Chabadsker" Tefilin because his father did, and his father did because of his father who "grew up in a Chabadsker place". When I asked him "what's a Chabadsker place", he didn't know, "whatever", he was an Am-HoOretz, so that's what he wore! When my friend was 18 he asked his father if he's allowed to change to Ashkenaz, and his father allowed him to.
Freg Ich Eich:
According to this self-respecting yeshivishe guy the Minhag Chabad is basically Amiratzis, the Alter Rebbe, Mechaber HaShulchan Oruch is an Am -------!
HT, you can't have a discussion such as this if you allow non-moderated commenting, where any moron with an IQ of 80 can go on and leave his droppings. I understand you do not have time to moderate quickly – but it is better to wait then to have to weed through the "moish's" out there. Plus it is depressing to see so many stupid Jews in one day...
Hirshel,
You really need to upgrade this site ala MB. Although he may get carried away at times banning, deleting, not allowing anonymous comments, etc, you can surely see what the advantages of using his methods are. I understand that you don't have the same capabilities since you use "blogger" and he has his own site, but if you don't find a way to block posts from the freaks you will loose the involvement of intelligent individuals.
(If I'm not mistaken, this was once mentioned by CE as a reason for not posting here that often anymore...)
I forgot to mention that Kurenitzer (Schneur) dosent play much in this sandbox either anymore - perhaps because these future gedolei Yisorel that visit the Tent bring every conversation below the level of intelligent life forms.
In case you wanted to understand why Chabad and Breslov share the hatred of those who wish to maintain old fights, check this one out:
http://www.shuvubonim.org/yort.html
Pretty close to Sokolovsky, no?
pirem,
Is Sokolovsky the only point you are capable of making? If so, you have made your point and I will ponder how it is I am responsible for this sick kid who does not recognize any authority and is completely off the wall. But perhaps you, too, are responsible for him (no less than I, for sure – the logic is equally warped). Jews have always had crazies in their midst - why worry about the "immense damage" they can cause now? And even if you do "worry" – what can you DO about it? Any monkey with a keyboard can say whatever they wish veein meakkeiv beyodei. So I say this – Sokolovsky is a diversion from the issue at hand.
And here is the issue for the mentally challenged among acheinu venei yisroel: 200 years ago (long before Sokolovsly was born, I think) shittas misnaggedim was promoting the aveidoh zoroh of self-aggrandizement. It is still shamelessly the same. It has no basis in Teiroh - it is against counless pesukei tanach umaamorei chazal. On the other hand, kol hanhogeis hachassidim – beharerei keidesh shel maamorei chazal yeseidom . Address this or forever hold your peace.
Berl,
SOKOLOVSKY has just crossed a line, as a Nachshon lehavdil,of where many Meshichists stand in regard to the Rebbe.That is a problem Lubavitch should and could take care of.
pirem,
I would be willing to honestly discuss meshichism at another time. But it's not the subject of discussion today. Today you need to offer proofs from Teiroh (not form social observations) to refute my position.
Lubavitch is as responsible for Sokolovsky as the Chasam Sofer was responsible for his Talmidim who went the Neolog way. ZERO.
Berl,
Aren't these accusations a bit cliched?
I mean, honestly, there are many people in the misnagdic camp that are humble, baalei midos tovos, osek b'Torah U'Mitzvos, and there are many of us that have real ego problems.
I'm not sure the old definitions still fit... (assuming they ever did)
Baruch M
could you point us to the line(s) that you'd like us to see, instead of browsing through the whole megillah?
is there a double standard here?
formerly,
this is not at all related to the topic. read again. or not.
Berl
lets start talking "tzum zach" no misnagid worships himself (that whole teminology is a chabadske one)we only worship the one above the aibishter, and if you come across others who do, they dont represent a movement,(unlike the chabadsker cult).
Now Torah was given to Moshe Rabeinu at sinai umesoruhu liyohushua ,veyoshuah lizkeinim, and that is how the mesorah of our torah transended from generation to generation,and the rishonim and the baalei tosfos the chachmei ashkenaz uchachmei sefard, and we have the shulchan oruch its a code of laws , the written book, we cant digress from it ki hu zeh each one according to his mesorah mechaber/rama"h, the ends can never justify the means, if a person is oiver unpurpose ki hu zeh of the shulchan oruch even being a kleiner derabanantske he cannot be called a TZADDIK,PERIOD remember that, a tzaddik is righteous what the torah wants not what you decide, and this is how our mesorah was transmitted from generation to generation, Chochmas haemes is never a stirah to niglah, it just cant be, there are no two torahs chas vesholom, if it seems so you must be not understanding it correctly,Yiras shomaim is an integral part of torah, and that is how our gedolim lived their lives no fanfare no parades no gold toilet paper holders ERLICH humble anavah zrizus lemitzvahs etc' this is a basis that should be simple but from your rants you seem so warped in your hashkafah about things that any yenukah knows,
Yirmi
that was indeed a beautiful way of describing the real litvishe gedeilim of a mohl, the chafetz chaim, reb nochumke horodne, the prushim in yerushalaim no fanfare just torah yirash shamaim chesed and zerizus lemitzvos,something these bloggers were never exposed to, even the poshutah milch treggers in vilna who were moleh vegodish in shas and poskim led these types of lives AAHH
yirmi,
Did you have something to coherent say? Something more than a lot of art-scroll-inspired drivel peppered with the usual anti-'chabadske' curses?
Gedeilei Yisroel through millennia cried out any time our meseiroh got corrupted and allowed foreign influences to creep in. Baal Shem Tov vesalmidov was one of such events. The misnaggedishe attitudes of the superiority of lamdonim over the Jewish masses was a destructive, new and anti-Teiroh attitude that was, is, and will remain an attitude of contemptible gaavoh - one of middies megunneis that are akin to aveido zoroh. This attitude is still alive and well in eilom hayeshiveis - one need only pick an article by any ‘ros yesive’ on motivations of chinnuch uchedeime and projectile vomiting is a guarantied result. That is the whole topic here.
Hachefetz lashem beeiles uzevochim kishmoah bekol hashem, hinei shmoah mizevach tov lehakshiv mecheilev eilim, ki chatas kesem meri veoven userofim haftzar, JA'AN MOASTO DEVAR HASHEM VAYIMOASCHO MIMELECH,
THAT IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT!!
yirmi,
shtark zich you are losing it.
Berl
I am qouting what you just posted in the above post
"Gedeillei Yisrael thru millenia cried out any time our meseirah got corrupted and allowed foreign influences to creep in, Ba'al shem tov vesalmidov was one of such events"
Wow it seems like you slipped and let the truth come out baal shem tov vesalmidov was one of such events - corrupting the meseirah,
Well part of our torah is emunas chachomim , and just as they prewarned us about the reform movements and other isms thruout the deiros, you have to take their word on this one too, you cant pick and choose.
You've got it backward, Dovid, the BaShT was such an event of crying out and campaigning against the maggidim and "lomdim" who had corrupted traditional Judaism and turned it into a kardom lachtoch bo - not to chop wood, but to chop down anyone who might be a threat to their self-worship.
Folks,
Surely you are aware of the GRA's messianism, and the fallout from it. Rembember the psychological crisis which overtook the kollel perushim centered community with the deflation of their messianic hopes for the year 1840.
This was no small thing as the fervor and expectations had been building for years - may
well in fact have been the hidden engine, or not-for-prime-time-sod, which drove the entire aliyah movement from the GRA's circle which perceived that former era restraints on active qiruve haqeitz had been lifted mi'shomayim.
Indeed, the very appearance alei admos of the gaon himself, whose extraordinary talent could only be that of a supernatural emissary, was a sure portent of shomayim's inauguration of this new era. As 1840 approached things really got to a fever pitch. There were changes introduced to the nusach ti'filoh -e.g. the verse hisna'ari mei'ofor qumi was purged from the qabbolas shabbos service some years prior on the theory that the shichinoh
had already gotten past the picking herself out of the dirt stage (and yes, the very faint echo of shabbatean era tampering with the ritual in recognition of a new era does resonate.)
When 1840 didn't work out, there was terminal funk. To give some inkling of the depths of despair which ensued we might mention that there were at least two conversions to christianity, directly from members in good standing of the kollel perushim.(again a faint historical resonance here). just try to wrap your brain cells around an image of a couple of yidden in long beards and full get up, maybe a gabai of a shul in williamsburg or binei brak, suddenly deciding to sign up at the local priest's recruiting office. it just won't come.
BTW, the circle of the gra's students had long maintained a lichoroh bizaare, and much to the sephardim's disgust, very friendly social relationship the local christian missionary establishment.
Baruch M,
The problems of R' Leizer are well known. He has been brought before batei dinim for this and apologized. He also does not represent anyone other than himself.
R' Yaakov Meir has stated that his mission in this life is to defeat R' Leizer, precisely because of these matters. The idea of A"UM mislabish B"HG is a delicate one. R' Leizer gets it wrong, and nobody supports his ideas.
catch up,
Stop writing divrei kefiroh about the GRA! I went through all the Art Scroll books and did not find any support for your assertions. NONE! ;)
Berl,
Perhaps you are aware that recent printings of various sifrei HaGra have edited out his shita of tzimtzum kepshuto...
Ich hab ale mol gezogt: Chassidim hubem mer kovod far'n Gr"a vi di Litvishe alein...
Hirshel,
I'd rather not paste the disturbing segments, but if you skim through the shiur you will find the problems in a couple minutes.
Anon,
If so, why isn't their a major outcry? Also, it seems that R' Leizer still wields a lot of power in Bratslov. I know that his power is mostly created by fear, but nevertheless...
Concepts such as the Torah definition of Tzaddik are not often taught in yeshivos.
There are some ramifications of this:
1. People are less likely to err and run into problems of kfira.
2. People don't know what kfira actually is, and therefore they think anything that sounds new to them is kfira, Shabsaus, X-tiantity, etc...
I wish that we would teach these things in yeshivos. Theology and ikkrei Emunah would be a beneficial course for Jews who want to know what Torah teaches. Unfortunately, most people disagree with me and decided to err on the side of caution. I guess they believe that ignorance really IS bliss...
Yeshivos don't teach it because they don't need it. What I mean is that today's Yidishkeit is based solely on society and Minhogim, we fast on Yom Kippur, we dance on Simchas Torah etc. because that's what's done. Once you inject Emunah and g-d into it you upset the ewquilibrium and all he-- breaks loose.
Some more of Lazer Berland's pearls of wisdom:
The Tzaddik really is the Holy One descended in the form of a human being. This is what we learn from that Midrash [on Vayikra]. Regarding the Gemara in Yoma about Shimon HaTzaddik, this was said after forty years of serving as Kohen Gadol. Rabbi Abahu said, “Who told you that the old man he saw was really a man?” It was the Holy One, Blessed is He! We see from here that the Holy One can descend in the form of the Tzaddik, and this Tzaddik is not a man at all! “No man shall be in the tent of meeting!”
The Tzaddik is the Holy One who has descended in the form of a human being. In section #21, the Midrash Rabbah says that the true Tzaddik is the Holy One descended in human form, and that is why he can atone for all of the sins of the Jewish people. This was the “old man” who entered together with the Kohen Gadol, Shimon HaTzaddik. This “old man” had two hands, two feet, eyes, a nose, a mouth, perhaps even teeth. Everything was just fine. So, how was he able to enter together with Shimon HaTzaddik? “No man may be in the tent of meeting…!” Of course the Kohen Gadol was not a man, the Torah says, he was an angel. So who was this “old man” who entered with him? It was the Holy One Himself!
The Tzaddik, says the Midrash, is the Holy One Himself, descended in the form of a human being! Who descended in the form of a human being! And the Holy One can do anything. He can atone for the sins of the Jewish people; he can bring them to true repentance. The Holy One can enter into a person and tell him to donate the money to pay for four thousand tickets to Uman! We see that the Holy One can manifest inside a person and tell him to give away four thousand tickets to Uman! Next year, He can tell the person to give away forty thousand tickets, fifty thousand tickets—Hashem is infinite. We are limited human beings, but Hashem is absolutely infinite. Hashem can atone for the sins of the Jewish people, and that is infinite. The Tzaddik is the Holy One Himself, descended in the form of a human being, and He can overturn the entire world in a single instant.
FYI:
After R. Leizer Berland made these remarks, his son R. Nachman Berland immediately stood up and told the 'olam not to understand this ke-pshoto, and was masbir the 'inyan of tzaddik along the lines of "hiskalelus be-Ohr Ein Sof" and "Shekhinah medaberes mi-tch g'rono," etc.
I don't know what Reb Leizer meant. Maybe just what his son said he meant. But this is a sterling example of "chachomim, hizoharu be-divreichem!"
1) why his son? why not him?
2) why say such things in the first place these days to beginners in Yiddishkeit?
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