Sunday, March 19, 2006

Hold the guilt, please




Heresy = "An opinion held in opposition to the commonly received doctrine, and tending to promote division or dissention."

I was talking to this yungerman at a Kiddush yesterday. Truthfully he's not the average Chassidishe Yungerman, but only because he decided not to be. In short he's mad at G-d for making him Jewish, and with a guilty conscience to boot. He'd like to abandon Yiddishkeit but he can't because his conscience won't let him, it keeps him up at night if he sins. This man has raised 7 good kids like this, without ever hiding his feelings, and oh, he's got a mouth like a sewer too.

We got on to the discussion by mentioning what else? Lubavitch. He said that he pities the Shluchim - Meshiloochim - was his word, for being forced to go on Shlichus to places like Hong Kong and Atlanta. "Forced?, by whom" was my reaction, but he was adamant in his views, stubbornly so, not wanting to hear out what I had to say. כפה עליהם הר כגיגית was his response, I was forced by Har Sinai, and I now have no choice, since I now feel guilty when I do an Aveirah.

What I'd like to know is the following:

1) How and why does a guy like this who claims to be afraid only of his guilty conscience, continue living his life, on the outside as a religious Jew? Obviously he only goes through the motions when it comes to Torah and Mitzvos, but if society is not his issue, and he speaks openly of true intentions, then he obviously doesn't care what people think, so why continue wearing a Shtreimel and Bekeshe and bothering to roll up your long beard every morning?

2) The contradictions abound as well. Here's a man who does things only because he feels guilty about them later. He does not worry about Schar and Eynesh, at least it wasn't mentioned in his discussion, I'm not quite sure why not though. Does he believe in them? it would seem like he does, since he quoted the Gemoroh of Kofoh Aleyhem etc., and if he didn't believe it he probably wouldn't quote it. If the wole problem is guilt wouldn't it go away after a while? After all he's not the only who's left the fold, correct? So what's the big deal here?

3) What does a child like that think when he hears these words from his father?, and I know he does because one son was present during our conversation, can he just tune it out and let his Yeshivah education take over? Yeshivos after all don't discuss such matters, so how would his Yeshivah education counter such talk?

It just isn't fair to those who do put in their sweat and blood into their kids religious upbringing....

8 comments:

Anonymous said...

Not to sound like a maaseh fun Reb Levi Yitzchok Berditchiver but...

You yourself attest to this yungerman's disregard for social pressure or psychological guilt. Did you ever consider the maaleh of a Yid who refrains from aveireis for literally NO rational reason? I think in da"ch jargon we call this "hisgalus etzem hanefesh."

Refreshing.

Anonymous said...

wow! we finally got a comment to tzigs magnum opus after 48 hours. Hooray!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Tony

Can there be this Hisgalus when there is no will to refrain?

IOW, if he really does want to sin, not like others who say they don't want to but can't hold back, is there an Hisgalus?

Anonymous said...

There are "laider" many such people in all camps of Orthodoxy . But obvioulsy the disconnect is greatest in the Chassidic world because of the chitzoniuth and hiddurim involved.
Pre war Eastern Europe was full of such people.
In his magnum opus memoirs fun Volozhin biz yerushalayim Rabbi Mayer Berlin describes lithuanian Jews dressed in short with no beards who were very frum and Galitzianer with kapotes beards and peyoth who upon reflection were apikorsim but for societal reasons could not leave.
Rabbi Huberband who recorded orthodox jewish life in the Warsaw ghetto for the Ringelblum archives betwen 1939-1942 describes a mass exodus from frum life on the part of many Jews. Now that the Germans were in control they had no economic , familial or societal rasons to remain in the frum world.Of course some left because of the tzares , but many took the opportunity to leave.
Usually people remain because of economic , familial and comfort reasons.It takes greater guts to leave than to stay.

Anonymous said...

kurentz,
i really don't like your slant ....if this is a general analysis what is the flip side of the one dimension you call factual.....
There are "laider" many such people in all camps of Orthodoxy . But obvioulsy the disconnect is greatest in the Chassidic world....

what do you mean?


Pre war Eastern Europe was full of such people.
In his magnum opus memoirs fun Volozhin biz yerushalayim Rabbi Mayer Berlin describes lithuanian Jews dressed in short with no beards who were very frum and Galitzianer with kapotes beards and peyoth who upon reflection were apikorsim but for societal reasons could not leave.

The flip side: were there no lithuanians jews with no beards who were apikorsim? were there no galitzianers w/peyos who were sincere and frum? do the numbers; you are presenting anomilies...


Rabbi Huberband who recorded orthodox jewish life in the Warsaw ghetto for the Ringelblum archives betwen 1939-1942 describes a mass exodus from frum life on the part of many Jews.

this was not normal life so why are you extrapolating a general rule? the flip side is also a question: how many yidden reaffirmed their commitment to yiddishkeit and increased observance in the ghettos?

Now that the Germans were in control they had no economic , familial or societal rasons to remain in the frum world.Of course some left because of the tzares , but many took the opportunity to leave.

when you say opportunity, it sounds like 'they went for the gold'.

Usually people remain because of economic , familial and comfort reasons.It takes greater guts to leave than to stay.
quite the contrary, leaving is like gravity..one small jump off a precipice and nature takes care of the rest, staying frum requires a constant mountain climb...resisting the elements, holding on, trying to go further, denying nature and its influences...it takes no guts to leave....every frum person is gutsy day after day to hang on in this golus, even a chasidish mentch who has no real interaction with the world...it takes no guts to taste of the world without restraint....

Anonymous said...

menachem manis i presume
-amshinover

Anonymous said...

One is not supposed to say ee afshi... (unless one was nikh'shol and is a baal teshuvah)but rather, "I sure would like to eat that Big Mac, ober vos ken ikh tun az unzer tateh lozt nisht."

I think this sounds like a refreshingly honest guy and I think his kids have a better chance of staying frum than if he never admitted to them that a Yid can be conflicted and still force himself to do the right thing for absolutely no good reason other than that "az ikh bin a Yid un anderesh ken ikh nisht tun."

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Tony

why can't we say that the father is teaching the kid to only respect his guilty conscience? What happens if the kid doesn't have that natural נטי'ה to guilt and feels fine after "Zindegen"?