Monday, March 27, 2006

A whole lot of nothing

The Agudath Israel of America is on a major damage control campaign these days. It seems like they were told off by donors for not standing up against the disengagement last year, and now they're trying hard to make up for it. At least in Israel the Agudah sold out for money for Yeshivos and child stipends, but in America what was their excuse for not standing up against it?

Now they suddenly remembered their "brothers" in Gush Katif! Here's what this week's "HaModia" had to say:

This Year your brother lost his home.
(yeah, we know, but where were you?)

He lost his job.
(what did you do about it?)

He's your brother. He needs your help.
(suddenly we're brothers?)

Agudath Israel of America GUSH KATIF PESACH FUND.


Then they go on to say that it's in answer to a call from Gdolei Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel to help ease the Pesach burden of the Jews of Gush Katif! The same Rabbonim who couldn't make it to a Tefillah rally at the Kosel days before. The same Rabbonim that were dancing on these people's blood, clarifying their so-called positions on Zionism and that the Jews in GK should rethink their priorities re: Zionism and that the Jews there were wrong to put their trust in the secular governments! The hypocrisy is just awesome!

What can I say? I'm skeptical. I doubt the sincerity of this Schnorr campaign. It's not Agudah lingo. Maybe I'm wrong, I've been wrong before.

נישט אומזינסט זיינען מיר ניט אגודיסטען


Cha'y shpai said...

Reminds me what Lubavitch did during the holocaust...............Diddly!Oh, they saved the previous Rebbe, and desperately, valiantly tried to save his library, with real mesires nefesh!
Nisht oomzinst zennen mir nit Chbadskers.
(Lots of talk, but what financial help did Chbadsker give Gush Katif?I still remember when Pesha L. was murdered, where do you think Chbadskers came to raise money for the broken family?Yeah, Boro Park and Flatbush!The dear Chbadskers gave/give cha'y kak to any charity.The only thing they know to do is take.

avremel said...

I will not respond to your first comment, one propagated by a Goy velcher farshteyt Chai kak.

Lubavitch, a group of 50 people, did almost as much as the Agudah during WW2, who saved a few hundred Yeshivah Bocherim and Roshei Yeshiva. Everybody else went to hell. But keep on believing Artscroll/Agudah propaganda.

Of course you fardrey this post to Holocaust because you have no answer. typical.

what's wrong with coming to BP and Flatbush? Crown Heights was a community of 1500 families, BP and Flatbush have 30 times as many! Do you tell Williamsburg people when they come shnorr in BP to go back there? Lakewood can shnorr in BP and Flatbush?

You anti-semitic piece of drek. crawl back into your. hole

chai shpei said...

I'm anti Chbadsker, not anti semitic.
Lubavitch did nothing during the war besides start machloikes and actually Artscroll does not want to touch this story.
Look at the big deal you made over your farkakteh didon notzach, in front of a goyisheh judge! Anybody involved, especially the Chbadsker knew that if they went to Bes Din Barry would have gotten 50%, so they got Aizik to pasken az mehn meg.I'm not blaming him, as a chosid, you could not expect a different psak, but he was a nogeah.
Unbelievable!! A yom tov when you win your own relative bechukos hagoyim!!!For shame!!

avremel said...

Chai kak

you wanna speak about the issue or not?

first Lapine, next the Seforim. Anything but the story at hand.

you're pathetic

A Simple Jew said...

Hirshel: I saw this full page add as well in last week's Hamodia.

If one wants to give tzedakah to help the Jews who were expelled from Gush Katif, who would you recommend that they donate to?

Hirshel Tzig said...

maybe it is a worthy cause, the Agudah fund, I don't know. I was speaking about the fact that they even made a fund!

I'll see if I can do some research.

chai shpai said...

The Rebbes eldest daughter wanted nothing to with Lubavitch, dead or alive.
I think she knew quite a bit more than u

AVREMEL said...

Chai kak

are you a gilgul of some of the earlier screen names like VML and Malach?


n said...

ht, good post and a great vehicle to come out swinging...before i was connected and still searching i had a sense that truth lay in a political system, that the right system needs to be identified and employed universally for all mankind to i planned on intellectually identifying it, i read history, political journals, commentary magazines, left to the right, and was shocked that no politition in any country, in any era in history ever said...fellas i made a mistake or even 'i miscalculated' on a particular issue two years ago...etc. The fraudulent nature of humanity constantly calculating for posterity and imagery stinks more than the physical stink of any substance, even that of chai shpei above.....
good shots avremel

Hirshel Tzig said...


nice to hear from you again, don't be a stranger.

It is, however, tough to sit on the fence and not to subscribe to a certain political view just because all sides are corrupt and selfish. Choose the lesser of 2 evils I guess.

יוסף718 said...


You always complain about "hate' this and "hate" that, I think your hatred for Agudah blinds you.

I am active in Agudah and I see no hypocrisy. As a Jew I feel obligated to help any Jew in distress, even though his distress is of his own making.

Of course I oppose the Zionist enterprise as did all of Chabad Rebbes. As such, I fully supported the withdrawal of Gaza. Because I don’t support the settlements as it endangers more than it secures Jews. Just to hold on to the settlements for the Zionist flag is anathema to me and to most Charaidim of all persuasions. Still my heart is truly pained for what they went thru and will בלי נדר send money for the campaign. Does that make me a hypocrite??

[ BTW Where exactly is 'hypocrisy' mentioned a vice in the torah?

I am aware that the Oisoi Ish didn't like hypocrites.. Maybe you could teach me a thing; what exactly is the issur or the hebrew/talmudical word for hypocrisy? ]

I remember the Lub Rebbe himself stating again and again that when security is involved, one must consult a 'mumche' even if he/she is a 'mumar', therefore in Israel we must consult the military security specialists for their expert advice.

The entire military establishment in Israel fully supported the withdrawal, that is a fact!

Accordingly those who supported the withdrawal [me included] of Gush Katif were very much in compliance with the late Chabad Rebbes requirements. Of course most Chabad Chasidim disagree, I suspect because to them it’s a matter of blind devotion to the Rebbes prior positions no matter if the circumstances have changed.

Aishishok said...

You are clueless. The Litvishe Gedolim have been involved with helping the people from Gush Katif with jobs, money, clothes, food from the beginning. Good try. It's a shame your mishpacha missed the Telzer fire.

Kurenitzer said...

The Gush Katiff issue should not be the main reason to oppose the Aguda.
This is a very middle class organization dedicated to the stuas quo in Orthodoxy. They are followers not leaders. they did nothing for outreach for amny yearsuntil they saw it was a gute gescheft. They did almost nothing for Soviet Jewry until the Perestroika and then decided that they were the real "patronim" of Soviet Jewry.
I attended the aguda conention. Its a collection of fat cats in large cars with their bejewelled wives . Ruchniyuth . Man di kara shmei

Hirshel Tzig said...


I respect the fact that you commented on the post without deviation.

The Agudah seems to want to benefit from both sides here, (similarly Chabad does, but in a different vein) They don't want to raise the ire of the Kanoyim by standing up for their Zionist brethren, but they want to appeal to the Parve Yidden in America who have strong sympathies towards Israel.

re: giving up territories; I don't think the Torah leadership in EY has ever done thorough research into the matter, they just prefer to go with the national concensus since they really don't live there. It also helps to go along with the opinion of the gov't since there are kickbacks in the form of funding to Yeshivos etc for those who vote with the government parties. They also would not like to sound nationalistic by voicing and opinion on the matter. (Once they give back Beitar and Ramot and Kiryat Sefer, "a city of Gedolei Yisroel", then you'll hear them.)

Hirshel Tzig said...


it's a shame your family wasn't in Aishishok in the summer of '41.....

יוסף718 said...


You could give it any spin you wish. No it’s not the 'ire of the kanoim' it is the very essence of Agudah we are not Zionist nationalists plain and simple. It has been so since the Agudah participated in the first Keneset. Agudah has never and will never take a stand on security issues inside Israel.

In America the Agudah has been vigooursly defending Israel’s security but never its pride or honor. We don't see Israel in any religious context whatsoever, the Torah is our flag and pride.

As for Russian Jewry the Agudah strictly adhered to our rabbinic leadership never to confront publicly the Soviet Union. This was the explicit position of the lub Rebbe too.

As for your impugning the Torah leadership in EY as not having done proper research; to me you are showing symptoms of a typical modern chabad chasid who could make such a blanket statement on Gedolie Yisroel.

I don't know what research is to be done. "Security should be left to the experts" said the lub Rebbe. They in turn almost unanimously recommended the withdrawal. Last time I checked Ariel Sharon himself is supposed to be some kind of an expert, no?

Calling funds for Yeshivas as "kickbacks" is just another example of your demagoguery. Do the Gerer or Viznitzer Rebbes personally ever get any of these funds? Did Reb Arey leib Steineman have his hands in the kitty? What an outrageous statement to make!

No it is the view of most Gedolei Yisroel in leadership of Agudah to say to the government of Israel, that the most important thing for our future is;

תן לי יבנה וחכמיה

It's nothing new, actually its very ancient!

Hirshel Tzig said...


1) on Russian Jewry we're not speaking about confronting the Gov't., just doing something would suffice, and don't get me started with Mordy Neustadt and the VLNY, that's a Guzma of major proportions.

2) on Security, we all know about the importance of Torah and Yeshivos, and that without it there would be no state of Israel, and that is the number 1 priority, but when it comes to to security of your home you do lock the doors, right, so why not take a stand on national security? what does it have to do with Zionism?

3) Kickbacks was the wrong word, I apologize, and I ch"v didn't mean that the Rabbonim get money from it.

4) Ariel Sharon did the disengagement to keep himself out of jail, it made no sense in the security sense.

יוסף718 said...

Ok I might have gone overboard with you too. ואתכם הסליחה

Of course I put locks on my door but I would never ask somebody to defend me with his blood when I have to opportunity to 'run' yes RUN!

Moshiach is not here the Geulah did not happen yes and when the goy is persuing I run and would advise others to do so (after all didn't the lub Rebbe Rayatz run from Warsaw??) at least I dont demand that you or your son should defend me with his life.

There is no need to trash this issue again and again. All I am saying is that it reasonable to assess the situation and to come to different legitimate conclusions about what should be the right course of things. I suspect your view is tainted by a blind adherence to a percieved view of your Rebbe.

The view of most chareidim was and is that we should not get involved in security issues since we don't have the expertise we don't serve in the army and most of all, we never had a chance to influence the stituation.

It was only because of תן לי יבנה that Agudah joined the government. As well as it should have.

nemo said...

It's pretty ignorant of you to say that the Lubav Rebbe didn't support security. Why is it that any Lubav that was there says he spoke over and over again, based on the Halacha in Shulchan Oruch that says that you must war rather than allow an enemy to take your land? Especially border towns?

Anonymous said...

Thats why lubavich throw away their votes with marzel

יוסף718 said...

I'm confused, I specifically said that the lub Rebbe based his position on security and solely on security.

If this is the case then we must defer to the specialists who know security. Words that I heard from the Rebbe himself.

If so, then logic dictates that we withdraw from areas that security demands we should. Regardless of what "Zionism" dictates. Because Chabad is not Zionist or Nationalist. Chabad is claims to follow Halacha and nothing more. There is no denying that most security experts in Israel believe that bringing the Jews behind the wall is a more secure policy. You might disagree with this view about security. But you can't run around singing a song that those who accept this analasys of the security situation are less 'halachic' than you, or are not 'caring' enough about the settlers ...yada yada yada...

Plain and simple!

Please read again what I wrote. It is not that complicated.

Anonymous said...

Hirsh Farvos
Du bist ahh poshuter Naaar
Kipshuto Kemashmaoh
Farvos bistu Mevaze

Hirshel Tzig said...

?וועמען בין איך מבזה

chai shpai said...

Thankfully Chbdskers listened to Tzig and Yoel, many voted for Marzel and their votes went straight into the meest kestel.None, or very few voted Aguda, therefore they can't claim anything from Aguda.And..........we went up to six knesset members!
See you later alligator, now you get chai kak from us!

Anonymous said...

mevazeh shm lubavitz
learn der rebbes scihos
tu vos men darf
nisht fos du VILST tohn

avremel said...

Chai kak

in Kfar Chabad 196 people voted for Gimmel. 526 voted for Marzel. 208 voted for Shas. Not a bad showing for Gimmel coinsidering how hard Gafni and Ravitz tried to not get their votes.

Hirshel Tzig said...


199 for Gimmel (up from 44 last time!)

531 Marzel down from 1134 last time.

Anonymous said...

check out this letter to the Jewish Press:

Political ‘Extortion’

Reading Menachem Porush’s pre-election pitch for the Agudah slate, I could not help thinking of the posuk "v’shochad lo teekach" – you shall not accept bribes. It’s nothing short of hypocritical for a religious party that demands exemption from the military for its young men – and whose leaders say the learning of those young men serves as the true defense of Israel – to sell its vote for aid to its own institutions. If the nation is supposed to rely on God as its ultimate defender, surely the party can rely on God for its material requirement.

Because of bribes – i.e., government funding – Agudah sold out the Jews of Gush Katif, sentencing them to poverty and condemning them to homelessness.

It is my fervent prayer that whatever the outcome of the Israeli elections, Agudah will not be needed to put together a new government – and that its institutions get only the money they deserve, not the money they can extort.

Rabbi David Alan Willig
Bayside Jewish Center
Bayside, NY

big mak said...

hirshel what the hell did chabad do to help the disengagement victims ? please stop preaching vermin against anyone else thats not lubavitch , its sickening already. everyone has good thing and no one can say they are clean from extortion so please take a chil on the "AGUDISTEN"

Hirshel Tzig said...

Big Mak, (cool name)

is vermin a new word you learned today?