Saturday, March 25, 2006

Stoking the coals, fanning the flames




The Rusty nail, aka Yated Ne'eman, found it necessary on Friday, 4 days before the Israeli elections, when many Lubavitchers are contemplating voting for United Torah Judaism, (Gimmel), to re-open old wounds, and re-ignite old hatred, much to the dismay of the Chassidic factions in Gimmel.

Former MK Shlomo Lorentz's memoirs were the culprit this time. He had to mention מרן'ס great Milchemes Mitzvah in establishing Degel HaTorah, because otherwise how would they earn the title "defenders of Torah"? I have no problem with him writing his memoirs, and let him write about "Murun" all he wants, but was there no better time for this?

"מרן הקים את דגל התורה ויתד נאמן, כדי להלחם נגד הרבי ושיטתו, משום שבעיניו זו היתה המלחמה החשובה ביותר" נכתב בכתבה. "אך לא בקלות נכנס מרן לקלחת זו. באחת ההזדמנויות אמר כי היה מעדיף שאחרים ינהלו את המערכה במקומו, ברם, לאחר שנוכח כי אין מי שיהין להיכנס בעובי הקורה, והוא נשאר בודד במערכה, מוטל עליו לעשות כל שבכוחו, בלי שום ויתור".

לורנץ מספר גם מדוע הוקם ההכשר "שארית ישראל": "בשנת תשמ"ו נפטר רבה של בני ברק, ובמקומו מינו את בנו, המשתייך לתנועת חב"ד. דעתו של מרן לא הייתה נוחה ממינוי זה, והוא הקים גוף כשרות עצמאי לבני תורה, "שארית ישראל'".


So, in short, instead of fighting assimilation, wholesale Reform conversions, and a whole host of other burning issues, the Vabolniker Tzadik set everything aside to fight Chabad.

Beautiful.

See COL
and Shturem

The Chassidic MKs, Litzman and Porush, are working hard on damage control, but I'm afraid that was the last straw, Chabad was reminded of where they stand. Maybe it's not such a bad thing.

44 comments:

Zev said...

Thank you for reminding me of Rav Shachs amazing insight and forsight.Who would have known so many years ago that Chabad, a group with many merits but also some cultish signs would turn into a full blown cult, claim their leader as the moshiach and even upon his passing and many years later,still claim that he is 'alive' the moshiach and 'nosi hador' (and some members going as far as deifying him)Well, Harav Shach saw this tried to warn us and Lubavitchers, unfortunately the did not listen.The rest is painful history,Lubavitch have made a total mockery of themselves.

amj said...

Porush is a Chossid ? What kind ?

We have to give a yasher koyach to Yosed for being emesdik and faithful to their principles and not selling out Maran Hagaon hatzaddik MiVaboilnik ztvk"l to try to get a few votes.

amj said...

Why are Lubavitchers reading that newspaper anyway if they don't hold of Maran miVaboilnik ztvk"l ?

Yisroel, australia said...

Lubavitchers don't read yated, but we hear about the times when they bash us.

friendly anonymous said...

Es is doch a befeyrushe posuk in chumosh: V'yoseyd tihiye lecho..v'chisiso es tzeyosecho.

Hirshel Tzig said...

AMJ

Porush IS a Chossid, I'm not quite sure which.

a Yid said...

Zev

Lazer Shach was an average Talmid Chochom, especially so in his later years. Reb Shmuel Rozeovsky had nothing to be ashamed of from him. Had he lived for 75 years he would've died in relative obscurity and the world would've been a more peaceful place.

You Litvaks are worse than the Lubavitchers when it comes to making a mountain out of a molehill.

berl, crown heights said...

Tzig, the fact that the seinei Yisroel would let their blind hatred get in the way of their self-interests is no news – Hitler y"sh even refused to trade a few Jewish lives for the much needed military trucks... So this bit is no wonder at all.
But the fact that certain 'Chabad Yerushalaim'-type elements are still trying to spread their zaidene zhupitze propaganda that attempts to convince Lubavitchers to vote "Gimel" - now that is truly amazing and is the ultimate si hachutzpoh!

Hirshel Tzig said...

Berl

to be fair to R' Tuvye I would say that he's upset about the close relationship between the Nationalist parties and Chabad in Israel, so much so that the lines have been blurred completely. I guess he's not a one issue voter and would like others to follow suit.

berl, crown heights said...

Tzig, two wrongs do not make a right. (No pun intended).

berl, crown heights said...

I personally do not understand how voting for Marzel could possibly hurt. He is a hareidi Jew. So mm"n - if he will go through, mah teiv, and if not - mah hifsadnu? More whorish Keneset members hamiskerim "hareidim" that are ready sell their own mothers for a few dollars at a moment's notice? Yuck!

Zev said...

'Zev

Lazer Shach was an average Talmid Chochom, especially so in his later years. Reb Shmuel Rozeovsky had nothing to be ashamed of from him. Had he lived for 75 years he would've died in relative obscurity and the world would've been a more peaceful place.'

A Yid
Try posting to the point.My comment was about Rav Shachs' uncanny foresight in seeing the degeneration which would happen down the line,NOT ABOUT WHETHER he was or was not 'an average talmid chochom'
(Since you did mention it though,how do you know if he was an 'average talmid chochom'?Did you learn in Ponovizh?Your statement that R'Shmuel Rozovsky had nothing to be ashamed of proves what?:Putting Rav Shach in R'Shmuels league, only proves the point that he was not your average talmid chochom, since R'Shmuel was one of the top magidei shiur in the yeshiva velt, so the comparison only does good for Rav Shach.A small further point:Rav Shach was one of less than a handful of people who got a haskomoh from the Brisker Rov for his sefer

a Yid said...

Zev

The Brisker Rov didn't give Haskomos, so what? I know a Yid from Chicago who you never heard of that got a Haskomoh in 1948!

if he's only in Reb Shumel's league why does that make him Godol haDor? was Reb Shmuel Godol HaDor?

But fight with Chabad and you become a star, that's for sure.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Berl

It seems to me that the Israeli press has managed to marginalize Marzel so much, that Chabad, by throwing their support behind him, would be marginalized as well.

The question is "Vemen ye"?

Zev said...

'Only in R'Shmuels league'
A Yid
I made no statement or mention of whether Rav Shach was 'godol hador' or not, I just challenged your statements inherent incosistence calling Rav Shach 'just an average talmid chochom' and than comparing him to one of the best post war magidei shiur:
I'm curious to know who the unknown rabbi from Chicago that got a haskomo from the Brisker Rov is

zev said...

'But fight with Chabad and you become a star, that's for sure'
Listen,I don't mean this cynically, but why should 'fighting with Chabad' make you a star?Do you feel that many frum Jews rate people/rabbis based on their antipathy to Chabad?Actually from my own personal experience many people are actually pretty positive to Lubavitch, their niggunim are widely sung for example, although people are a bit spooked out by the meshichists
I've picked up this feeling by many Lubavitchers and cannot understand it.Can you explain it without heated rhetoric?

berl, crown heights said...

Tzig, voting has two main purposes:
1. Advance your agenda.
2. Be heard.

I know that most Chabad Rabbonim said not to vote for Marzel. But I still fail to understand why. Would not #2 still be accomplished even if Marzel failed to get in? And how is anything even remotely resembling #1 accomplished through supporting "yahadus haTeiroh"? Chabad is a major player in Israeli society. I do not see it being marginalized by the Marzel vote. Rather it would be seen as an honest vote of conscience.
(If you want to use the "Jewish character of the State" defense, I can only say that on the only issues that mattered - mi huh Yehudi and shleimus hooretz - these people were 'never there'. And the issues that they do take up - such as compulsory Shabbos observance - lei zu hadderch! Does forcing religious observance down people's thoughts produce any positive long-term effects? Does it make Jews in Eretz Yisroel frimer? So why in the world would CHaBa"D squander its good name and the people's good will only to become associated with the party that is universally hated by one and all in Israel? Plus remember, the only time the Rebbe said befeirush to vote "gimel" was when they separated from eisei menuvol vesayateiv. Umikkelal 'hein' atoh sheimeyah 'lav'.)

Hashem yiracheim al amei hyeishev beztiein uvegeilo.

berl, crown heights said...

ooops – it was supposed to be "down people's throats" - not "thoughts".

berl, crown heights said...

http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=cols&id=223&lang=hebrew

nothing to add...

Hirshel Tzig said...

Reb Yoel's opinion on the matter

(Berl's link made clickable :-))

Anonymous said...

Calling a revered rov a 'menuvol' is (hopefully)not what Lubavitch is about.
I personally would love to see Marzel in the Knesset.I don't agree with his views but on a personal level he is a decent person.Most important though, is to give the radical elements who support him a voice so they don't need to turn to illegitimate means to be heard.

Anonymous said...

'eisei menuvol vesayateiv.'
Not nice, but at least learn some hebrew/loshon koidesh or 'keidesh'.
It's 'VESIYATOI' or 'VESIYATEI' not vesiyateiv

Brooklynese said...

לא נעים לחבדנקים מכך שהם לא מצביעים לרשימה חרדית כמו שהרבי שלהם זצ"ל ציווה

אז מה עושים, מחפשים תירוצים מתחת לאדמה.

והנה הם מצאו איזה מאמר במוסף יתד נאמן שכותב את מה שהציבור הליטאי חושב כבר 20 שנה.

מה ההצגה הזאת כאילו גילו את אמריקה. תגידו שאתם לא רוצים להצביע ג' כי אתם לא חרדים ואל תבלבלו את המוח בשטויות ותירוצים מתחת לאדמה.

כל ילד יודע שהליטאים נגד חב"ד וכל ההתבכינות ביממה האחרונה זה רק כדי להכשיר את דעת הקהל לכך שיום למחרת הבחירות יתברר שבקלפיות בכפר חב"ד היה רוב מוחץ לרשימה שאיננה חרדית, וזאת נגד דעתו של הרבי זצ"ל


My sentiments exactly.Nothing new in the Yated

Friendly Anonoymous said...

"Gimmel" will join whichever party ends up forming the coalition. Might as well vote for Kadima or Yisrael Beitenu, and save taxpayer money by cutting out the middle man

avremel said...

Let's say that it's important to vote for yeshiva funding as issue #1, but what about Pikuach Nefesh, is it totally irrelevant? do the people in EY not need to worry about the suicidal pullouts being done in the Holy Land? Don't they live there too? do they rely completely on the Bnei Teyreh protecting everybody?

berl, crown heights said...

anonymous,
"his collaborators" in Aramaic should be "vesayateihi", but for Hebrew adaptation "vesayateiv" סיעתיו is correct.

berl, crown heights said...

תגידו שאתם לא רוצים להצביע ג' כי אתם לא חרדים
OK:
אנחנו לא רוצים להצביע ג' כי אתם לא חרדים

Milchemes Hashem B'Midian said...

zev,

shach was similar to korach. both made and promoted machlokes against Hashem. i don't know if it is right and fair to korach to compare the two, as korach did it, thinking what he was doing was right, and he be'emes thought that he would be kohain godol. whereas shach did it for the sake of machlokes. we all know what the end was!

Kurenitzer said...

Lorencz was one of rav Shach's victims in the creation of the DEGEL. He and Menachem Pourush the Mitnagdim in the Aguda were replaced by Ravitz and Gafni. By the way Meir Pourush is a nice man guy but not a chassid (not that I care either way).
The Degel was created to combat the refusal of the Gerer rebbe Reb S>B> Alter to follow his - Rav Shach's demand for Knesset rotation. Rav Shach to his credit was tired of the same old cronies representing the Aguda in the Knesset forever (eg Lorencz OLd mand Pourush and at that time Munia Schapira ZT"L) He wanted some new blood in the Knesset.
Rav Shach was also sick and tired of the Moetzet being packed with rebbisch eyniklech whose gadlus Rav Shach could not appreciate.
The Lubavitcher thing was not why DEGEL was created. But Lorencz can not admit the true reason (that is Rav Shach's desire to get rid of him from the knesset) so like other anti semites you use the alst resort raise the Messiach issue and Chabad.
Of course once Degel was created both sides saw the value in raising the issue of Chabad and Mitnagdim , the Gerer to get chabad votes and the DEGEl to get all their boys in solidarity.
I can not understand any Chabad amn voting for Gimmel. The rebbe wanted shleimus haaretz, shleimus haam and kiruv these people could care less about anything except for Lokshen.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Kurenitzer

If שלמה לורנץ was a victim why stand up for RES?

Maybe not Degel, but the Yated WAS started because they would not listen to him when he asked that they not report about Lubavitch activities, way back in 1981! a Lag BaOmer parade was the occassion, I believe. RES and the Hornosteipler decided אז ס'איז געקומען די צייט פירען אן אייגענע בראנזשע

Der Shygetz said...

Porush IS a Chossid, I'm not quite sure which..
___________________________________

No, the Porush family are old Yerushalmi Litvaks who like many of their community do wear what looks like Chassidishe levush. They have no problem with Chabad; they are politicians and businessmen who are not for or against anyone or anything. (I have met R' Menachem Porush personally and the above is based on my conversation with him).

Hirshel Tzig said...

Shygetz

I know all about the Porush family, but Meir is Meir, not his zeides. I still say he's a Chossid.

zev said...

The censor is back at work?
Hirshel, please stop being pathetic.I wrote a post which was respectable though it did not agree with you.Do you have such a problem with people disagreeing with you.
Ver shoin a mentsch.Btw, I take it as a compliment when you censor since it means that the truth hurts, oon ess maynt az es iz nor gebliben bah dir a shtickel emmes.Say whatever you want:Rav Shach was an ish emmes vos hot nit mayreh gehat foon keinem nit.As R'Lorentz writes there: Even if he (R'Shach)would be burned alive ,he would not stop from his campaign against false meshiches 'vayl ess iz avodoh zoro'
I think Ariel Sokolvsky has proved how this cam lead to 'dinnen avoidoh zoro mamosh'

Yisroel, australia said...

Rabbi Meir Porush is a gerrer chosid as far as I know as is litzman.
The third major candidate of Aguda on the UTJ's list is Shmilik Halpert a Viznitzer chosid.

Yisroel, australia said...

Lorenza isnt sticking up for schach, from what I understand they just took his memoirs.

site-spammer said...

Tzig?
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Hirshel Tzig said...

Site-spammer is our poster boy for Chabad to stop outreach, as was suggested by this blogger a while back.

Kurenitzer said...

Since Rav Shach has been accepted by all in the Yeshiva velt as the gadl hador (except for Brisk and smaller chugim). it behooves Rabbi Shlomo Lorencz (a Hungarian) to join the show. Lorencz can not say what he really wants to whch is that rav Shach destroyed the Aguda and his career (und er hot nit zugeleigt epes zum gesheft if you know what I mean). Lorencz can not attack rav Shach so hejoins the chorus and praises him. And whats the whipping boy Lubavitch.
R. Shach started the Degel to teach Ger a lesson in their quest for hegemony over the Aguda. This was after he also started SHAS (yes he did start it not Rabbi Yosef who joined a bit later).
Of course R. Shach hated Chabad but Chabad was not a political player in Israel and Shach fougt them in the pages of his books ( letters) and from droshoth.
But Degel was meant to teach the Aguda a lesson and to put Shaas in order.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Zev

bring up Sokolovsky again and I delete it again.

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Hirshel Tzig said...

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Hirshel Tzig said...

sitespammer:

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