Berl, Crown Heights says:
Why don't we just settle this whole debate איין מאל פאר אלעמאל: The snags have perverted the Teiroh and Yiddishkeit itself. Baal-Shem-Teiv and his talmidim החזירו עטרה ליושנה. The snags are still holding on to their corrupt ways (ועוד הוסיפו חטא על פשע) and have, therefore, no say in any matter of השקפה, הלכה, אמונות ודעות, יראת שמים ואהבת השם, . In short, they have no gedeilim, no chachomim, no תלמידיהם and no דעת תורה. There is no point to debate them on any topic, even for דע מה שתשיב purposes.
עכ"ד
Who does Berl mean by "Snags"?
I would imagine those who rile up controversy where there is none, not all Litvishe Rabbonim. The Rebbe was oft to say that there were many ניט-חסידים in all times, and with them we have no beef, there is no Chiyuv to become a Chossid. The Rebbe also said that nowadays there are no Misnagdim, simply because those who originally were apprehensive about Chassidus have seen that their suspicions were unfounded. Today there are only those that attack movements, and in reference to them Berl says what he does. We also have no problem with not respecting them, simply because they do not "demand" it nor deserve it.
43 comments:
HT, 100% correct - I even wanted to post a clarification along the same lines myself, but got lazy, so thanks for doing it.
Boruch Shekivanti.
Hirshel-what's happening to you?Now you say there is no chiyuv to become a chusid? How else can you be a completed Jew??
I've allways stuck with the term Chassidicly impaired . . .
Today those that we call misnagdem are only the ignorant trying to revive a dead arguement for their own cynical needs
There no misnagdim?But there are snags?So now you are making a new category-nit chassidim,misnagdim and snags.You are being michadesh a new category.Did the Rebbe mention this new category of snags?
So Snags go around attacking movements?You mean snags go around attacking anything that moves ?agudah,mizrachi,belz,bobov,vizhnitz,lubavitch,ger,shas,lev liachim, yad liachim,avois ubonim,chofetz chaim heritage foundation,united synagogue, federation of synagogues....?
The Chassidim were mishaneh-they threw out the nusach that Ashkenazim davened with for dorei doros.Kol hamishaneh yodo al hatachtoinoh-but Hirshel still insists that yad hachassidim al haelyoinoh.Something doesn't fit.
I see that the issue is further discussed here:
http://asimplejew.blogspot.com/2006/03/guest-posting-from-rabbi-dovid-sears.html
Snag,
Have read anything that is being said here? The answer to your attack has been addressed in three threads already - why do you keep repeating the same thing?
If you pay attention you will see that the ground was covered already.
wondering, good observation.
I did not mean to be mechalleik between "misnaggedim " & "snags" — they are one and the same (only one is a normative word and one is slang). I totally agree with HT that not all the non-chassidim are misnaggedim (or snags). But I simply did not notice that he made the above-mentioned chilluk. I do not know what "there are no misnaggedim haint" statement means nor whether it was actually made by the Rebbe. (But even if the Rebbe did say it, it could, for example, just mean that di haintike azei gerufune misnaggedim zainen afilu dem titul eich nit vert... plus the context important).
I totally agree with HT that not all the non-chassidim are misnaggedim
in riessen and volin they were called
עלומש'ע
I am a relative of R Berke Chein (Picture) and whenever we were not behaving as a Chasid should he would always reprimand us by calling us "DO BIST AH MISNAHGED!?"
a story is told:
One day in the early 60's in Russia, two Jewish brothers walked into a shul right at the start of the kerias hateiroh. The gabbai turned to them and asked, 'Are you kohanim? Leviim?' The brothers looked at each other, shrugged their shoulders and replied, 'We don't know. But we know we are not misnaggedim'.
Berl,
That story brings tear to my eyes. Thanks.
Reminds me of the story told about a late , totally frei Israeli politician whose roots were in Ger.He was asked once, 'what have you retained from your chasidic upbringing'? His answer:'The sineh towards Alexander chasidim!'
HT
why the "love affair" with Berke Chein? 2 consecutive pics of him!
Tzig,
after participating sporadically on this site for some time I've come to the conclusion that your stongest practical shyches with chasidus is that you sling mud and the Besht dredged clay, otherwise I don't know where you have the license to spew drek....oh i know, because you come from the superior side you can employ any means possible....
Berl crown / tzig and all other bt's
The menagdim today are stronger then ever, Teirah is in the litvishe velt every chosid with a little brains knows that, thats why they come to our yeshivas and daven der alter nussach that the besht's davened, (btw many of the beshts eineklach are menagdim today)
now for a good chulent or some other gossip you gotta go to the hasidic courts, but teirah nor by the litvishe,
"a chabadske hot a tzelem in harts"
likutei sicheis 467
Berl and pals:
What do you people think Chassidus is, a political platform? The One True Jewish PC? Or some kind of exclusive club, with farbrengens instead of golf?
Did the Baal Shem Tov come to the world just so Yidden could find something else to kick each other about?
I thought the Baal Shem Tov wanted to teach us a derech in avodas Hashem: "b'chol drochechoh do'ehu" -- with simchah shel mitzvah, with the "three ahavahs" (Hashem / Torah / Yisroel), with deveykus and hiskashrus l'tzaddikim and bittul b'Ohr Ein Sof...
WHAT HAPPENED????????????????
AV,
Calm down please. The question was, in essence, "do the attacks by gedeilei hammisnaggedim mean anything? Should people take them seriously?" The answer to that is a resounding "NO". I do not know where you get your "exclusive club" idea, but I would suggest you drop your pre-conceived notions and old-paranoia-driven assumptions and direct your rebuke at the reidefim un mecharcherei riv not the nirdofim!
I did not originally want to disturb your equilibrium about the misnaggedim - chassidim machleikes. But now I will: Reb Aizik Homlyer said the machleikes was, among other things about hu echod vein sheini! People need to know that misnaggedim were 100% in wrong then in their redifeis and they are in the wrong now! No one needs to feel compelled to waste their time in justifying themselves to a misnaggeid. And yes, I agree that it is much better to spend ones time on teiroh vaaveidoh, but that does not mean “turning the other cheek” and at times it is OK to set the record straight...
Teyreh in the Litvishe Velt? puh-lease! has anything been accomplished from all this learning besides for a club of frock-wearing Roshei Yeshivos and Kollelim?
any decent sefer today, useful sefer that is, in Halochoh etc. is authored by Chassidishe Yungeleit, most of whom never stepped foot out of their Rebbe's institutions!
All of the posts here seem to me like Potato Couch Fans arguing in sports bar which team or player is better ,while personley they never played a game in their life,In the sports world only team OWNERS benefit from such a situation, which will hopefully generates interest in their sport and increase their income ,
From all the club owners, only the Rayatz wrote a book to stimulate these arguments ,but for the benefit of non of us,
HT
why allow the FR-bashing?
Berl
If you want to set the record straight, the chasidim were theREIDFIM and the menagdim the Nerdafim , i believe this was posted already in the name of the Chazon Ish Zt"l, but the Chazon Ish in your eyes doesnt mean much , that is like saying Moshe Rabeinu doesnt mean much Rachmono Letzlan, well guess what the Chazon Ish was the undisputed godol hador in his time, benigleh ubenister.
btw what bone did the CI have with the chassidim to pick? haahhh?
This blog shows how corrupted all the teachings of the rebbeyim became when they are devoid of torah and mitzvos by the massess and free of leadership. All of chaassidus has been relegated to bashing other jews with lies and sinas yisroel...For this the Alter Rebbe was megaleh chassidus chabad?!? For this The Baal Shem TOv was megaleh a higher level of Ahavas Yisroel?!? For this the FR went to jail?!? For these results REbbe brought these teachings to mamoshuss?!? SO that all that is left is spewing hate and name calling, and for that price we had yiddishkeyt without the teachings of chassidus!
and HT: whether you like it or not: thousands and thousands of jews sit and learn torah (and yes, their seforim atttest to their learning mah sheyn keyn we see the level of learning in L publications) and one thing is for sure: the vast majority of those people are not speding day and night making stupid blogs to defame other jews!!! that itself is a great accomplishment that is remiss in our circles...who is in a contest of taking a bigger jab at another yid...
and people think it's a great compliment that some people who have forgotten whether are kohainim or leviyim are not "misnagdim"...this mindset of this stupid joke says it all in the true mindset of today"S "chassidim": all it matters is whether or not people associate with misnagdim while everything else takes a back seat...
chill out anonymous, you'll tie yourself up in knots soon.
Tzig,
What did Lubavitch do when R'Moshe Feinstein was niftar,did they all go to the levaya or did the Rebbe farbreng instead?This was purim, twenty years ago.....
R'Moshe was one of the few who held the 'menagdim' back.He loved and respected any ehrlicheh yid, chosid or not.As long as he lived even R'Shach went easy on Chabad.What hakoras hatov and kovod hatorah was shown by Lubavitch upon his passing?I fear that nothing.
Correct me if I'm wrong.If I'm right stop your preaching!!!
binyomin,
1. If my memory serves me well, Reb Moshe was niftar on Taanis Ester, not on Purim.
2. There certainly was Lubavitch representation at the funeral and Rav Shmarayhu Gourary represented the Rebbe personally. Reb Moshe was most certainly held in highest esteem by Lubavitchers. It is hard to argue that "he got enough kovod" because how much is enough? Do you feel you gave him "enough" kovod?
3. Reb Moshe had ZERO effect on "rav-sach" whose vile pronouncements were out of control well before Reb Moshe was niftar.
4. Vehu hayikar: Are you trying to excuse the ugly statements made every day by the rank-and-file “bnei teiroh” against the Rebbe and Lubavich with “they did not give Reb Moshe kovod”?
Ben,
R' Osdoba in CH clearly stated many times that R' Moshe is posek acharon in most Halachik matters, and they he follows R' Moshe most of the time.
I'd say that's pretty high regard, for the primary Rav of Lubavitch to say about a Litvishe, non-chassidic and non-Chabad figure dont you think?
It seems like the Rebbe and Lubavitch are always judges by who's Levaya they went to and which Rebbes they did or didn't visit. The fact that the Rebbe never went to visit HIS Yeshivos in CH or in nearby towns is not enough reason for them to see that it was a pattern of staying within the Daled Amos of 770. They still see it as a sign of disrespect. Is there any doubt that these people could care less about Reb Moshe's Kovod?!
R'Moshe was nifter Ta'anis Ester, the funeral was on Purim.
A very merry farbreng took place.Needless to say the chasidim were not on the Lower East Side.
Berl, your earlier comment/curse of Rav Shach does little to add to your credibility when you complain about how supposedly bnai torah speak about Lubavitch.'Tol koiroh mbein eynecho'
The levaya on Purim? in Yerushalayim, not here. Was there also a complete bittul of the Mitzvos HaYom because Reb Moshe was Niftar? Should the Rebbe have not read the Megillah?
Anonymous was probably a baby at the time and has no knowledge of the time, but yet he shoots his mouth off.
From Yated online:
"On the night of Taanis Esther, 5746, R' Moshe was niftar. The levaya on Taanis Esther morning in New York City was like none that New York had never seen; about one hundred and fifty thousand people accompanied R' Moshe on this step of his final journey. Even the American flag on the East Side was flown at half-mast as the non-Jews' sign of mourning that the leader of the Jews had died.
His oron was brought to Eretz Yisroel and on Shushan Purim in Yerushalayim, hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews from all walks of life accompanied the levaya to Har Hamenuchos where he is buried close to the Gaon of Tchebin, the Belzer Rov, in the portion near his Rebbe, R' Isser Zalman Meltzer, zt"l."
ANONYMOUS, YOU'RE MUCHZAK AS A SHAKRAN, GO CLIMB BACK INTO YOUR HOLE!!
שעל נעליך מעל רגליך and ask Mechilah!
Reb moshes levaya was on taanis ester and the fact remains the rebbe did not attend his levaya , why because he felt he is king messiah , therefore he never attended any godol or qoutes any godol in his sichas, merely coming would be showing in some way that reb moshe was a great person and might be interpeted as maybe even greater then the rebbe, remember paroh did not go to the bathroom either, it is called "imaginations of grandeur"
Let's see how long it takes till the comment above vert oogevisht
Beri
why vish op something that makes the "Snags" look stupid?!
I am an outsider, neither a snag nor a chosid, as my profession i practice phsycology, and this "grandeur" post previously posted has been proven medically, it would be a valid explanation of the whole meshiach belief practiced in chabad, the previous post might of hit a right target, even though it is coming from an obvious snag.
let's include Moshe Rabbeinu in this "image grandeur" thing while we're at it "Doc", after all, are we to believe that a human being can go to heaven at be w/o food and water for 40 days?!
(Sarcasm intended)
FORGET ABOUT TISHEN!
DID THEY CANCEL THE PARTY AT CHAIM BERLIN? TORAH VODAAS? TELZ? PHILLY?
bpbound,
I thought you were a 'convert' to Lubavitch as is our dear blogmaster.Therefore, if you were at the levaya, presumably you were not yet Lubavitch.Whatever the case, I'm sure that very few Lubavitchers attended.
Pirem
well let's see now. About 150,000 people attended the Levaya IIRC. With about half a million Orthodox Jews in the Metro NY area, I would guess that not many Satmare, Bobover, Skverer, Vizhnitzer etc attended either.
FORGET ABOUT TISHEN!
DID THEY CANCEL THE PARTY AT CHAIM BERLIN? TORAH VODAAS? TELZ? PHILLY?
Actualy, I was in TV at the time, and Rav Pam DID cancele the Purim Chagiga, something that the Chassidish element (and I mean the Rosh Yeshivos etc) did not (respectfuly) agree with.
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