Monday, January 14, 2008

Changes (Part III)


Photo from here

Summary: Hirshel enters Spinka Cheder in Boro Park and stays throughout elementary school. He does well in Yeshiva and is well-liked for the most part by both teachers and peers. Kittah Ches is a bit of a challenge, with a new Melamed who was learning on the job and with his Bar Mitzvah coming up, but Hirshel hangs tough and perseveres. At that time Hirshel still has no direction in life, and is content just being Chassidically inclined; the education has done that much, and he has little interest in the non-Chassidic world other than a few of the Gedolim pictures that he has.

Spinka had slowly but surely begun to change. More and more of the Hungarian/Chassidic light students were leaving, and in their place came the hardcore Satmarer etc., with many of them coming from the neighborhoods of Williamsburg and Seagate, and with them they brought their ideas of how things should be run. The change MAY have been brought about by the arrival of a certain Assistant Principal several years later, but that may be difficult to prove. So, as time went on more and more Talmidim/Parents decided that this is not the place for them, and they began to look for other places to educate their children/be educated. Many leave after 8th grade, opting for Mesivtos like Beis Meir or Novominsk , but the Tzig stays put. Ninth and Tenth grade (Kitta Tes and Yud) go somewhat well, I guess; Tzig works hard to learn and daven, and basically stays out of trouble. Every once in a while some Satmarer would shoot his mouth off and we'd get into it. That would give me the nudge; it would remind me that this place really isn't for me anymore, and that it's time for me to leave. I do have to say that we had some fine Ramim/Maggidei Shiur there; "Litvishe" that could relate to the "Chassidishe" Oylem there, and some of them were good and caring. Others were not, but that's to be understood. After Kitta Yud I finally got out. I chose Mesivta Ch'san Sofer as my next place of learning - I don't remember now on who's advice - and they were nice to accept me. I would start there in Camp, not the usual Elul or after Pesach time, since I couldn't bear to be at Spinka for another summer, it would just be too difficult, MiKamoh Taamim. VeDal.

You might ask: "Tzig, where and when did the interest in Lubavitch happen? You never speak of Lubavitcher friends or personalities that you knew like others did, so why the sudden urge to become a Lubavitcher?" The truth is I sometimes wonder when and how it happened. I try and recreate the moments and not everything is clear to me yet, I don't recall every moment in my life like some people do. (which makes me wonder sometimes; How do 90-year olds remember everything that happened to them?!) What I do remember is as follows: I always had a very warm spot in my heart for Lubavitch. When I'd see Lubavitchers in the street or would go to Crown Heights for whatever reason I'd be excited about it. When some of my classmates would poke fun at Lubavitch because their idiot father or brother taught them how I'd be there to strike them down, being Mekane Kin'as Hashem. That leads me to believe that I always had that Lubavitcher spirit in me, albeit dormant at first. I understand that may be difficult for some of you to understand; you may believe that somehow you're meant to stay within that culture for the rest of your life, and that you're obligated to follow your parents' customs to the letter, but I see it otherwise, as did most of the Talmidei HaBesh"t.

It may go something like this:
As many of you know in 5749 there were elections in Israel, and not just any old elections either. These were the first elections after the big breakup between the Agudath Israel's two factions, the "Lithuanians" and the Chassidim. The reasons for the breakup were many, but we'll name two. One was the disproportionate influence wielded by Chassidic groups, mainly Ger, in the policy making of the AI and the "say" in how the money received from the Government should be distributed. Forty years of being told what to do by Ger can do that to a person and a group. The other was what Ger and their newspaper, the HaModia, which was supposed to be THE frum newspaper, was reporting and accepting. They had been told many times by the Lithuanian leadership to stop positive reporting about Chabad activities in general, and specifically about the Lag BaOmer parades organized by them. In particular one parade bothered one very famous Rosh Yeshivah, and he decided that he had seen enough; and then - in 1985 - the Yated was born. The only newspaper that followed the directives of the real Gedolim, not some "Rebbelach" that wore velvet on their collars and carried silver-tipped canes.

And so it was; The newly-independent Yated now had a carte blanche to attack all those that didn't sit well with them, and those didn't fall in line. The fact that the paper was established by the Ponovizher Rosh Yeshivah and the Steipler Gaon now made everything they said not only permissible, but it made it a Mitzvah to follow in their attacking ways. LeMoshol: Say that till now Yeruchem from Flatbush - a nice all-around good kid learning in YOB - was careful not to speak Loshon HoRah because the Chofetz Chaim said not to; now he could speak LH about certain groups because the Yated hakked against them, and the Yated is published by the Gedolim. When Yeruchem would be asked by his friends how he could say such things about a Godol BeYisroel he would reply: Mitzveh LeSaper al Apikores! This and this man was dubbed an Apikores by the Yated & Co., so I can say whatever I want about him. In other words: Lubavitch and the Rebbe can be knocked around by 12 -year-old Pi--ers. To say the least this did not sit well with young Tzig; he now knew that these people are not for him, he won't subscribe to their cockamamie theology, that's for certain. Tzig met some of these characters in Camp Mesivta Ch'san Sofer, and needless to say they turned him off. So he knew that these people were not him, but the question was "Vee Yoh?"

To be continued.....

80 comments:

snag said...

I don't get it.

In the Spinka Yeshiva kids were attacking the Rebbe based on the Yoseid ??? Spinka holds of the Yoseid and Moron HoRav Schach זצוק"ל ?

Or were you already in another institution then ? This is confusing.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'm sorry if it was unclear. I had already left Spinka. I'll correct it.

Anonymous said...

to which yeshiva did you go?

Hirshel Tzig said...

I added a whole paragraph, and some lines in the last paragraph. Please read the post again. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Your problem is just as blatant in Chabad as it is out. We all know what Chabadskers say about Rav Shach. And, yes, they are also pishers.

yidel said...

Sorry,
The story is a bit unclear.
A)Why were you getting into fights with Satmar kids?Were you already Alighned with Lubavitch than in kitteh tes and yud?
B)Just curious why you seem to imply that the Satmarer from Willy and SEAGATE changed the yeshiva.Seagate is not exactly the place ford hardcore Satmar.
C)You never seemed to answer Snags question:Why were kids in Chasan Sofer taking the anti-Lubavitch stance and this being my question, why do you schlep Yeshiva of Brooklyn kids into this?You didn't go there did you?
Please rewrite/clarify the post so we can understand were you are coming from

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Still, a rather balanced explenation of the Agudah/Degel fight.

But the point about Chabad bashing none Chabad is worse that you think. Rav Sach!?!? Try " Skop, Trop and Wasserman" and other such junk I heard from Chabad jersk, even BEFORE the big war with Rav Sach

Gandalin said...

"I understand that may be difficult for some of you to understand; you may believe that somehow you're meant to stay within that culture for the rest of your life, and that you're obligated to follow your parents' customs to the letter, but I see it otherwise, as did most of the Talmidei HaBesh"t."

Yes, they had to have seen it otherwise. It was something new, then. New, but old. Alt-Neu. But recognizably different.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Yidel

I apologize. I write and don't look back much at what I wrote. Sometimes things get left out.

1) It bothered me that young pi--ers were saying what they were about the Rebbe. Why? it just did.

2) The kids from Seagate were hardcore enough when it came to being frum on "yenem's cheshbon." Their parents were the cool Satmar types.

3) there were snaggy types in YCS too. One of them was even the son of a famous Rosh Yeshivah, as well as the nephew of one. He was related to the Ch'san Sofer family, that's why he went to Camp there.

YOB was an example. There was no Yeruchem, I just tried to give you a "fer instance."

Chaim Berlin tragedy why RJJ photos said...

There is another thing that is very puzzling about this post. The caption "Taken from here" at the head of this post leads to all sorts of photos. Why was this one of the Litvishe yeshivishe bochurim in RJJ yeshiva in Edison New Jersey chosen?

By clicking on the link, and looking over all the photos, it's very clear that they were taken by someone with a connection to the frum community in Edison, NJ.

The photo itself (yes I looked at all of them and they are truly beautiful) has this caption:

"'EREV ROSH HASHANA #1'
R.J.J Yeshiva -September, 2004 Fuji Pro S2 Nikkor 28/2.8"
Its URL is http://www.myattphoto.com/yiddin/erevrh1.jpg

So what does RJJ have to do with ANYTHING in this post???

If you look over all the photos there are a few of Chasidim and Chasidishe kids in Boro Park that would have been more tzum zach.

Another point, since the RJJ photos are posted, it is worthwhile to point out that RAS had a big hand in founding this yeshiva.

When Marvin Schick had the brainchild to push for the rebirth and the re-establishment of the defunct RJJ Bais Medrash in Edison NJ, it was Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin that came to the rescue. RAS sent over a chabura of about ten CB bochurim to form the first nucleus of this reborn yeshiva around 25+ years ago. In fact one of the founding bochurim was RAS's son Noson (who eventually became) the Mohel.

Most significantly, the founding co-Rosh Yeshiva of RJJ (also known as "Edison" in the yeshivishe velt nowadays) is HaRav Yosef Eichenstein, a talmid muvhak of RYH and a very close mekurov of RAS. (The other co-Rosh Yeshiva is HaRav Busel, a non-CBer.)

There are a number of good photos in the link tzemach gives of Rav Yosef Eichenstein, see

http://www.myattphoto.com/yiddin/roshyeshiva1.jpg "'ROSH YESHIVA' -August, 2004 DC-T50 hand held, available light"

AND

http://www.myattphoto.com/yiddin/roshyeshiva.jpg "'ROSH YESHIVA' Edison, New Jersey, 2004 R.J.J. Yeshiva Fuji Pro S2 Nikkor 105/2.8"

And also, of one of the top RJJ rebbeim, Rabbi Yechiel Drillman, see http://www.myattphoto.com/yiddin/drillman.jpg "'RABBI DRILLMAN'
Edison, New Jersey, 2004 R.J.J. Yeshiva Fuji Pro S2 Nikkor 105/2.8" who is one of the closest chasidim of RAS, younger brother of the famed CB Illui Rav Yankel Drillman. Both Yankel and Yechiel had a close shaiches with RYH. Rav Yankel was on the hijacked plane with RYH, RYD, BHD and Rav Hutner's wife Masha A"H.

Anyhow, it's still strange that a photo depicting Litvishe bochurim davening Erev Rosh Hashanah in the Livishe misnagdishe yeshiva of RJJ in Edison, NJ, with a rosh yeshiva and an key maggid shiur who are talmidim muvhakim of RYH and RAS in the collection of photos if you follow the trail of the URL of this photo which is part of a larger collection.

Couldn't you have chosen a picture of some Chasidishe bochurim or people that are also in the collection?

But thanks for this link. You find some pretty amazing things and I really enjoyed all the photos, they are really good productions.

Yechiel said...

Your cheder experiences sound like any other kids experiences.Kids will be kids.
What will you do when one day your kid comes home from school and doesen't understand how youngsters in his school are saying some very nasty things about Snag gedolim?
When I was young I went to Camp Gan Yisroel and heard some very nasty things about some famous Roshei Yeshiva.This was in the early 70's.
Whatever,I have mixed memories from than but realized at the time that I don't want to be part of a group that is very, very partisan, tells to many stories from back in the day when the Snags were informing on the Chasidim and last but not least felt that the appreciation of the Rebbe was being pushed to levels I was not comfortable with, not to denigrate, but there was a feeling that they viewed the Rebbe as almost non-human.
To each his own

Anonymous said...

>>But the point about Chabad bashing none Chabad is worse that you think. Rav Sach!?!? Try " Skop, Trop and Wasserman" and other such junk I heard from Chabad jersk, even BEFORE the big war with Rav Sach

That's just disgusting.

Hirshel Tzig said...

so "Shkop, Trop, Wasserman," which hasn't been heard in years, (not that I ever condoned it) is just as bad as what I heard? I think not.

Hirshel Tzig said...

ChaimBerlin

I see CBers also see everything from a CB angle, everybody is judged on his relationship to CB.

I chose the pictures because of the Yeshivisher angle to the story. I also made sure not to include faces; hence the bird's eye view pic shown here.

loyal fan said...

what i read from story is that various groups from distinct backgrounds fight over the best way to suck out the Isreali government for funding of their enterprises and use emty campaign manovers to advance their cause including degrading the competition,and somehow you feel one party is more right then the other ,so to manifest your deep understanding of your team you decide to move into the stadium dressed in your teams uniform ,to always be avilable to cheer for your team and booo the oposing team

Hirshel Tzig said...

loyal

what does Israel have to do with it?

loyal fan said...

Hirshel writes:
It may go something like this: As many of you know in 5749 there were elections in Israel, and not just any old elections either. These were the first elections after the big breakup between the Agudath

Yeivy said...

''so "Shkop, Trop, Wasserman," which hasn't been heard in years, (not that I ever condoned it) is just as bad as what I heard? I think not.''

Tzig, don't take this personally,please.Just allow me to give you a pointer when addressing issues that people raise.

You are trying to tell us that the things you heard (u still have not made it clear where u heard them, actually)were worse than 'shkop,trop' etc, but, see, we don't know what you heard!You did not tell us! It makes discussing and debating with you tedious.
See the example:You say that the reason you were turned off from where you were was that young kids were saying derogatory statements about Lubavitch.When someone tells you that it's quite common to hear derogatory statements about Litvishe rabbis in Chabad settings you answer that what you heard was worse.Do we know, without your sharing??

The above was just for the sake of trying to make it easier to debate an issue or discuss it when the points are clear.
Now to my opinion:I have heard many very nasty things from Lubavitchers and not from kids btw, about famed roshei yeshiva.One they even call a murderer!One they used to call toilet paper! Most other do not even get a respected prefix such a Reb or Rov, .
So I think on this issue Chabad has what to fix themselves.I also understand how you,as a child were turned off by young kids saying nasty things about a rebbe, but that today, from your perspective as an adult, knowing that the same things happen in many places, it does surprise me that you still seem so bothered and passionate about it.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

HT, you missed my point. (Perhaps because it was not written well). There is NO group in Yiddiskiet, INCLUDING Satmer that is as dismissive of other groups/Gedolim as Chabad. And when you consider that Chabad is not nearly as insular as Satmar, it becomes even harder to understand. Case in point. The casual referring to some of the biggest Gedolim and Kodshe Elyon as “Skhop, Trop and Wasserman,’ by children AND adults in an intentionally dismissive manner by Chabad, EVEN PRIOR to the heating up of the Chabad/Litvish wars of the 1980’s!!! (As if they were responsible for Rav Sachs alleged sins!!) If you haven’t heard it in a while, reason is because nobody in Chabad remembers who they are any more!!!

U' N' said...

yeivy, the only reason tzig became a "מתחב"ד בקלון חביריו" is that he was never really exposed to the proper institution. he never attented their yeshiva in yeshiva-years and then he only saw the "facade" in close-up, the well polished BP outpost. It seems that he has very little clue about who says what about whom, other then what he draws on his battered experience as a head of the C-list in a heimishe yeshiva.

Hirshel Tzig said...

1) you speak more nonsense about my experiences.

2) You were exposed to what exactly? what makes YOU the expert?

do tell.

U' N' said...

tzig, I'm not speaking non-sense but translating what you're saying into less orwellian "cleanspeak". It's nice to know that in Tzigian word "nonsense" means "it's a fact but I have nothing to say".

I'm not inclined to engage in cyber exhibitionism, so I'll keep my exposures to myself. Better concentrate on the story of your change of allegiance - the best investment you ever made.

Hirshel Tzig said...

U N

Me using "nonsense" is for your own good. I could just call you a liar, but you don't know enough about me to lie. I will call you inept for piecing together the wrong picture about me, although I gave you a pretty clear description of events.

Maybe it's me.

Payshe der Baal HaGoleh said...

I would like to draw a parallel between the Chabad v. Shach conflict and the Israel v. Palestinian conflict if I may at the risk of inciting the pea brains amongst us who will fail to think it through to the end and just get tripped up on the seemingly inflammatory jargon.

From an 'objective' point of view it would seem that what goes around comes around. Palestinians hate Israelis and Israelis hate Palestinians. You would not be hard pressed in finding a Israeli child, or even adult, to mouth off their diabolical hate and death wishes to anyone of the Palestinian race [the flip side being self evident].

Fair enough. - If it would end there.

Palestinians don't just hate, they kill [I'm not talking fair combat here. I'm talking men, women and even children blowing themselves up with sole mission of harming as many civilians as possible].

For all the 'hate rhetoric' which may or may not be tolerable, Chabad doesn't pro-actively take action to do the opposition in. They would be fine with the live and let live approach which they take towards the majority of the frum world. Their mission statement is not the demise of Shach'ism.

I whish I could say they same for them. At least they would then be a worthy adversary.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"For all the 'hate rhetoric' which may or may not be tolerable, Chabad doesn't pro-actively take action to do the opposition in. They would be fine with the live and let live approach which they take towards the majority of the frum world. Their mission statement is not the demise of Shach'ism. "

I don’t know (or like) the war this blog is denigrating into the old Chabad vs Everyone wars of the past. The history tidbits are much more interesting. But in the name of truth, anyone who thinks that part of Chabad’s mission statement is NOT converting every Jew in the world into Chabad, at any costs, is either a fool, liar, or not too bright.

Payshe Der Baal haGoleh said...

Or alternitevly, actually knows what חב''ד stands for, as apposed to what it has be contorted to be by some twisty twistedness'

Hirshel Tzig said...

Payshe:

That should read Agoleh, as in עגלה, not Hagoleh.

Peyshe Der Ball Agoleh said...

correct. - thank you.

Chabad and Proud said...

As someone who grew up in the Lubavitcher yeshivah system I can say that I never heard of this "Shkop Trop Wasserman" business (except for something that sounds like that from a friend of mine who originally was in Lakewood, I don't remember the exact line). I'm not sure what the ta'anah is. If it's that gedolim are mentioned without Harav Hagaon Ztzuk"l appended to their name, it is not a sign of disrespect - no one is referred to with titles in Lubavitch (something the Rebbe tried to change). The first rav of Kfar Chabad was known as "Shneyer der Rav". Personally, I never heard Reb Elchonon Wasserman, for example, referred to any other way.
There isn't "gedolim bashing" in Chabad. There is "misnagid bashing". Dehaynu, those who had nasty things to say about the Rebbeim, or worse, are spoken of disparagingly. There are many Litvishe gedolim who are spoken of with great respect, and whose seforim are learned in the yeshivos. This, despite disagreements in derech. You'll never hear a bad word about Reb Chaim Brisker, Reb Chaim Ozer or the Chofetz Chaim, for example.
And from the Rebbe there was never a disparaging remark about even the "bashers". (Those who are going to dredge up the oft-touted statements to prove otherwise should learn those sichos carefully again. They'll find that the opposite is true.)

efraim said...

Payshe
You sound like you are still in mesivta, especially with not knowing what an 'agolo' is.

the UnU"N said...

2) You were exposed to what exactly?
---------
I think he was exposed to syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, Hep B and HIV in the Mondrovitzer Roov's cheder.

Peyshe Der Baal Agoleh said...

ephraim,
you sound like you don't have an intelligent response...

Anonymous said...

>>I don’t know (or like) the war this blog is denigrating into the old Chabad vs Everyone wars of the past. The history tidbits are much more interesting. But in the name of truth, anyone who thinks that part of Chabad’s mission statement is NOT converting every Jew in the world into Chabad, at any costs, is either a fool, liar, or not too bright.

Very True. Appropos:

>>And from the Rebbe there was never a disparaging remark about even the "bashers". (Those who are going to dredge up the oft-touted statements to prove otherwise should learn those sichos carefully again. They'll find that the opposite is true.)

The rebbe's remakes about the Chazon Ish, Rav Shach, and R' Yoel are known to all. Please don't dig a hole for yourself and just face the facts . . .for your sake.

Hirshel Tzig said...

fact: the Rebbe never made a disparaging remark about neither one of the three mentioned here.

About the Chazon Ish he merely said that he agrees with a comment made about him envying a Talmid in Tomchei Tmimim being that he never learned Tanya.

About the Satmar Rov: what exactly did he say that could even be interpreted as "disparaging?"

About Rav Shach?! HE (The Rebbe) said something, don't even get me started on that....

Peyshe Der Baal Agoleh said...

Tzig,

maybe you should indeed get started on that. let's clear this topic once and for all.

Anonymous said...

>>About the Chazon Ish he merely said that he agrees with a comment made about him envying a Talmid in Tomchei Tmimim being that he never learned Tanya.

In doing so, he missaplied a Gemara and stretched the notion of pnimius of Torah to mean only Tanya or other Chassidishe Seforim (this is something that every other Chossid, not to mention any other kind of Jew, would strongly disagree with).

As someone mentioned before, the same can be said if one would maintain that the pnimius of Torah is the chiddushim of R' Chaim and the Brisker Rav. Although the rebbe knew the Rambam, the above-mentioned dictum would force the conclusion that the rebbe did not knowing the pnimius of Torah. This, then, would justify Foyleh Kahn's remark to be applied to the rebbe himself.

The Chazon Ish's awesome depth in nigleh and nistar is well known, in his seforim and among his talmidim. The fact the rebbe publically declared the Chazon Ish (after his petirah) as not knowing Chassidus, but, on the contrary, being against it (where did he get that from? He was close to literally EVERYBODY), as a justification for the premise that the CI did not know the pnimius of Torah is specious enough. The fact that he further misapplied this reasoning so as to justify a certain statement made by someone when he was heavily drunk was inappropriate, to put it VERY nicely.

The rebbe said R' Yoel is against the Alter Rebbe. This is completely untrue. He said worse, if you want me to go there, no problem.

His comments about others, including Rav Shach--about the man's tefillin, no less--was just childish and really do not deserve dignity among intelligent adults. The rebbe seems to be completely incabable

Anonymous said...

. . .of appreciating tochaha from fellow peers. . .again, to put it nicely.

Anonymous said...

I think the rebbe wrongly found "hisnagdus" and/or "sinah" in well-intentioned and very well informed tochacha. This caused big problem as he responded furiously. Who else saw the video where the rebbe goes berserk on Rav Kahana, z"l in talking about bnei Torah (who are obviously not bnei Torah according to the rebbe because, obviously, they are full of sinah. The logic causes everything to become about agendas and not about actual problems. This is very effective for the rebbe's relationship with his chassidim. But it did very poorly for his stance with everyone else. Then again, I don't think the rebbe cared about non-Chabad but Charedi Jews. He wanted them, nay, he wanted everyone, to become Chabad Jews. That much, I think, is obvious to everyone).

Hirshel Tzig said...

Tochacha, eh?

You just don't get it, do you?

The Rebbe never responded to any of the comments coming from Bnei Brak like

חב"ד הם לא יהודים

בחב"ד אמרו פעם תורה? בחב"ד מזכירים פעם תורה?

and others pearls of wisdom from Maran.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"Or alternitevly, actually knows what חב''ד stands for, as apposed to what it has be contorted to be by some twisty twistedness"


Nice alliteration, are you channeling Spiro Agnew? Listen taxi driver, I sort of grew up in CH. No I am NOT Chabad. But I am well aware of the widespread belief in CHABAD that only CHABAD has any value, and all others are second best, who should be converted to Chabad ASAP, or destroyed. Check out Chabad.org, where there was a long discussion of whether it is better to make five Chabad BT’s or ten regular ones. So said one way and some the other. Can you imagine a Gerrer having the same question!!

U' N' said...

Tzig,

Who is referred to in התועדויות תשמ"ה כרך ד' דף 2227-2228 ?

Hirshel Tzig said...

He's referring to those people who almost killed Mendel Vechter. Is there a problem? Should he have "turned the other cheek?"

Anonymous said...

>>Tochacha, eh?

Yes.

>>You just don't get it, do you?

I don't think you quite get it. Allow me to explain:

The Rebbe never responded to any of the comments coming from Bnei Brak like

חב"ד הם לא יהודים

בחב"ד אמרו פעם תורה? בחב"ד מזכירים פעם תורה?

and others pearls of wisdom from Maran.

But he did respond to others. You are aware of this, RIGHT?!?! So who cares what the rebbe ACTUALLY responded to after his childish remark?

And Rav Shach's concerns came years after he and others expressed their extreme disappointment with the messianic fervor and ignorance in learning among many in the meshichist camp--many whom even Chabad find to be embaressing. Those who have embraced the Elokist/Boreinu are ovdei avodah zarah. As far as their not learning Torah is concerned, I have myself heard in Chabad the notion of the Mittler Rebbe says one should love his fellow Jew, the Alter Rebbe says one should learn, The Rebbe said one should not steal. This is not a Rebbe; this is the Torah. And that was Rav Shach's gripe, as it would be anyone elses. Read the rest of Rav Shach's sicha. I am sure it would confirm what I wrote here.

These are problems. You may respond that I hate Jews. This is not true, I love everyone. You may say I don't LOVE Jews. I can fairly say that I do. This is about missing the boat in a major way: not being mazkir the teachings of the Torah in one's education.

Peyshe Der Baal Agoleh said...

>>>But I am well aware of the widespread belief in CHABAD that only CHABAD has any value, and all others are second best, who should be converted to Chabad ASAP, or destroyed.>>>

I've searched high and low in every and any Sefer with a Kehot logo and have found no such thing. Would you care to back you oozing assertions with some facts of sounder substance, like perhaps....a source?


>>>Check out Chabad.org, where there was a long discussion of whether it is better to make five Chabad BT’s or ten regular ones.>>>

for my entertainment can you please provide a link? I'm almost ready to bet the farm that no such discussion took place on chabad.org, or anywhere more accountable then Ohelie Torah's schoolyard recess bull session.

Peyshe Der Baal Agoleh said...

Would anyone care to explain why many of מרן's speeches [particularly in the late 80's] as they were printed in the Yated where so heavily edited they were practically reconstructed?

Listen to the audio and be amused if not somewhat wiser.

Anonymous said...

Peyshe (who did not know how to spell agoleh):

Please provide a source. . .

Thank you.

U' N' said...

Tzig,

I'm talking specifically about the phrase

"אעפ"כ בא אותו מחוצף וכותב ומדפיס דברי שקר "

Who is he talking about ?

Hirshel Tzig said...

Probably a writer in Der Yid.

NOT THE SATMARER REBBE.

U' N' said...

Tzigele,

Read that page from the top to bottom and explain to me kindly who else could it possibly refer to (including the tortured and misquoted here statement about nishtakcha ... ), and what is it exactly that he calls "sheker gomur". After all, the leshonois that are used here are strong enough to make it a bit clearer who are these terrible evil people we're talking about.

I suggest that everyone else interested in the subject does the same and arrives to conclusions.

Interestingly, every paragraph happens to end with an exclamation mark, and some of them with two. Is there an inyan to it ?

Hirshel Tzig said...

I read it. It's talking about Satmarers, not the Satmar Rov. He has passed away 6 years earlier. Was there a letter from the Sigeter about learning Rambam? I don't think there was. It was probably an op-ed by Sender Deitsch, but I don't expect you to know that. I do see that you've decided who he was referring to. How convenient.

BTW, is "Tzigele" supposed to be derogatory?

U' N' said...

Tzigele,

No, Tzigele is lushen chiba. I don't recall letters from the Sigeter, but again it doesn't look that the Mikolayever means the Sigeter. In siman "mem" of the same volume, he uses the term "mechutzaf" and other precise words of love and tenderness probably 30 times, but against a different character.

Here, he takes the old well beaten "nishtakha Toras haB'", which is often taken out of context by the Sonei Yisroel (including yourself), and mixes it up with the statement that A"R meant "Tanya" for people who had shaychus with him and could put it in right context. Whether or not it is true isn't for us to judge, but the latter statement was indeed made by the Satmarer Ruv z"l . This is quoted here as "divrei sheker" - probably out of overflowing ahava raba. And just in case some rogue melamed zechus comes out of the woodworks - like the tzigele here - he makes it clear : "moshekh rabo lemokom shebo hu nimtsa - megalin rabo 'imo".

Now, does this concept apply broadly or only in this instance ? The baal-hisvaduyos seems to say here that people who do abuse in the name of their Rebbe shlep their Rebbe down to their place. קריינא דאיגרתא איהו ליהוי פרונקא ?

Hirshel Tzig said...

I don't expect you to know this but the "Sigeter" does not refer to the Baal VaYoel Moshe, but rather to his nephew Reb Moshe. He was known as the Sigeter Rov by many even after he assumed leadership of the Satmar community. Hence, you using "Mikolayever" (I guess you meant Nikolayev?) Has no place here.

U' N' said...

I don't expect you to know, but I know exactly who you're referring to as "Sigeter". I also don't expect you to know, but R' YYS' younger son-in-law was known as the Mykolayever Iluy by many, even after he assumed his leadership of the "Lubavich" community.

Can it be assumed that you have nothing meaningful to say to the subject of hisvaduyos ?

Hirshel Tzig said...

Mykolayev? don't you mean Nikolaev?

I saw the Hisvaadus, including Oys Mem, and I say that he's speaking about Sender Deitsch. That's what I have to say.





(Berl, Efsher Bistu Mattir Neder?)

U' N' said...

I don't expect you to know that, but Nikolayev is really Mykolayev in klein-Reissisch, and that's how it's known today.

So Reb Sender Deutsch z"l who used to travel to Soviet Union under covers of doing business (and taking risks) while bringing in cash, food and other means of support to yidden there (Moscow in particular; some of your neighbors today remember very well what he did), and about whom I haven't heard a bad word from anyone else including the worst of the craziest russian mashichisten - this Reb Sender Deutsch is the arch-enemy mechutzaf embodiment of evil who earned himself a two page panegyric by the Nosi Huhakol Rebbe Fun Alle Yidden ? Meila, Seif mem is rather obviously about Rav Shach who wasn't too keen on the Rambam business. But the mem-tes - you surely can't say with a straight face that all this kuvod is for Reb Sender, z"l. It has to make khochek a penny worth of sense.

berel hot'zich dershtikt shoin mit sina.

Hirshel Tzig said...

WHY would we care what a Ukranian city is called in Klein Reissisch?

Reb Sender Zchuso Yogen Olov was a good man, but his editorials were some of the worst hack jobs man has ever known. His lexicon is what drives Satmar today, they all learned from him, all the Pashkvill Schreibers.

I would bet that he was the one that called it a festival, it goes very well with his usual style of writing.

So there.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Berl hut meyreh fun dayn "Zeiden's" K'peydes....

Hirshel Tzig said...

The baal-hisvaduyos seems to say here that people who do abuse in the name of their Rebbe shlep their Rebbe down to their place. קריינא דאיגרתא איהו ליהוי פרונקא ?

Ich bin Maskim.

U' N' said...

I don't expect you to know, but sinse Mykolayev is in Klein Reissen, it's name in klein-reissisch is somewhat logical.

I haven't read those op-eds; if this indeed references R' Sender's op-eds, it's the only memory of them that's left. Not too bad, given that history has proven how right R' Sender turned out to be, and how venomous can some people's Ahavas Yisroel be.

And if the rebbes get shlepped so low, between Baranes, Sokolovsky, Milshteyn, Tzig+Berel & Co, Shmuley Boteach, Zalman Shechter and all the other good people who amongst themselves have done every "mitzvah " possible - how deep did they drag?

Hirshel Tzig said...

how deep did they drag?

Not as deep as ONE Satmarer on a "business trip" to the Far East......

U' N' said...

Really ? You can't do any better then then default standard of wholesale slandering (which is just an admission of defeat) ? The people guilty of A"Z kepshuto, Giluy Aroyos Kepshutom, even Retzicha kepshuto all in the name of the b' hisvaduyos (not to mention the gratuitous kefirah, lies and slander they keep perpetuating) - they're equal to a ONE presumable non-existent Satmarer on a "business trip" that never happened other then in the wild imagination of a spinker oisvorf ?

This is so pathetic, it's a waste of traffic.

Hirshel Tzig said...

What can I say, other than "you're naive."

Hirshel Tzig said...

Listen Khaver:

If it'll make you feel better than believe that it's all in my "wild imgination." But if you'd like I can hook you up with a guy who'll give you all the information you need to bust that bubble you live in. What gets me is how you accuse me of not being exposed to the "real Lubavitch," yet are clueless as to the real goings on in the real world.

U' N' said...

You can start by saying that whether or not there are people who commit egregious sins, very few do so holding up a picture of their Rebbe, and frankly I'm not aware of anyone advertising homosexualism in the name of sigeter, or declaring him to be a neie getschke. An intellectual dwarf like you will probably not grasp what I'm talking about. Reread the given hisvaduyos and recharge in your love for fellow yid.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I detect a crack in your steadfast belief that it's all a figment of my imagination. Nu, Nu; Tzubislach.

So now we're being Mechalek between those that do egregious sins with a Rebbe picture and those that do it without. Yesh LeAyen BoZeh, Although I don't recall Shechter or Boteach holding the Rebbe's picture when they preach. Maybe in your dreams they do.

Gidel said...

Tzig:
I need an honest response from you, please,ok?
There is a lot of talk here vis a vis Rav Shachs' position on the Rebbe (alz interesentkait, I think Lorenctz in his book, yeah, the one you used about the story with R'Yaakov, brings that Rav Shach said tehillim on the Rebbe when he was ill.The machloikess they had was not personal)But here is the question:Many of the Anti-Meshichist faction have said very similar things about the Moshichisten, i.e according to them, without mentionining his name ,Rav Shach got it right.
Do you have anything to add to this?.
Happens to be that almost everyone in Mainstream Orthodoxy, today at least agrees that Lubavitch went to far, especially with the Moshiach campaign.To be honest, I'm still under the terrible impression made by Rabbi Kalmanson on motsoie shabbos on the Zev Brenner show, so though I'm a Gerrer I have to agree that Rav Shach was right.

Guravitzer said...

No Lubavitcher believes Shach got anything right, and Shach made it very personal. Moshiach Sheker is not personal?!

Being that there is no such thing as mainstream orthodoxy, your point is moot.

Gidel said...

Guravitzer
You sound very emotional and passionate about the subject, but try and debate this rationally.

Another thing, just for the sake of mentlichkait, do you think you could manage to call him Rav Shach?You see, though many Lubavitchers dislike him, he still has thousands of talmidim and admirers and they must be hurt when you address him so.Also you have to *think* for a sec:If you can call him whatever you want, you are giving all the Misnagdim a carte blanche to call the Rebbe whatever they want,right? So how can Lubavitchers have 'taynos' to others for being disrespectful of the Rebbe,I mean Tzigs whole post was about him getting into fights defending Lubavitch against the other kids anti Lubavitch name calling calling.So, had Tzig been in a Lubavitch chaider and heard little kids call Rav Shach names he would have become a Snag!Which would also make his decision to become Lubavitch something that was not based on Lubavitchs' own merits.
Lastly, if you feel that you cannot discuss the issue without being overcome by the need to be nasty and insulting don't comment on this subject, there are many other parev subjects where you can join into the discussion.

Anonymous said...

>>No Lubavitcher believes Shach got anything right, and Shach made it very personal. Moshiach Sheker is not personal?!

Its Rav, you worthless animal. And all antis agree with him, whether they want to acknowledge the fact that he was right or not. And every other Jew in the world outside of Chabad agrees with him, too.

Because of animals like you, the Rebbes worth in the world went down. Thank you for bringing down a great man so that you can get out your anger against gedolei yisroel.

U' N' said...

tzig, did your censor nature take over at the end, or were you doing berele's bidding ?

Hirshel Tzig said...

Natchalnik

If I had a "censor nature" I'd censor 90% of what you write. Do I? no. So stop crying that I censor. What end are you talking about, and why do you think I do Berele's bidding?

U' N' said...

ok, sorry for being choished (bepsulim ?); seems that a post got lost in between.

Hirshel Tzig said...

sorry for being choished(bepsulim ?);

If I knew you to have a sense of humor Volt ich efsher gelacht, but that's not the case.

Guravitzer said...

He was mevaze my Rebbe in public. Live with it.

gidel said...

''He was mevaze my Rebbe in public. Live with it.''

Sir,
You seem to be making my point that since you are so passionate about the issue you cannot deal with it rationally.

Btw, what do you mean by 'live with it'??
All I said was that if you 'allow' yourself to be disrespectful so another persons godol beyisroel for whatever reason, THAN, you cannot have any 'taynos' if THEY speak disrespectfully of your rov.
Is it that hard to get?Is it that hard to realize that to discuss issues there has to be a some basic 'rules' first one would be talk about the person with the most basic respect.

Guravitzer said...

Where do you see passion there? Just a statement of fact.

amazed said...

i am reading this and wonder to myself - do amost people here ever spoke to a godol or read about them in some artscroll books.\
a few points: anonymous - if you call the Lbavichder Rebbe by all kinds of names - why do go crazy when he misses out "Rav"
Gidel - i dont know what kind of Gerrer are you but the gerrer chassidim were much more upset with Rav Shach then Lubavitch and i wont repeat the names they called him bizmanoi. i remember when the Leiv Simcha introduced daf yoimi in yerushalmi ( which lubavicher rebbe supported as he supported all positive hatzoes ) and Rav Shach said about Leiv Simcha zt"l "un bavli ken er?". i was by knessia hagdola in the beginning of mems and R Sahch gehaltn mitn reidn and the gerrer chassidim asked him to stop for a minute so the gerrer rebbe can come in a bakovodikn way. he refused the 500 big gerrer brought the rebbe in singing "sei sheurim roishaichem " and he had no choice but to stop. it was flam fayer betwwen the 2.
3. about meshichistn - they bother only the real misnagdim who were always misnagdim. i l lwrite later what the pnei menachem said to someone who tried to knock the belief of lubs that the rebbe is moshiach after his passing.
finally anyone who knew the relationship between the rebbe and r yoel wouldnt write the rubbish i am reading

U' N' said...

Tzig,

So did you get the post with questions ?

Hirshel Tzig said...

no.

G-ott tzu danken.

Anonymous said...

Amazed is obviously completely out of his mind.