Monday, January 7, 2008

The Mad Hungarian strikes again!


"Hashkofoh"

It seems like Shlomo Lorencz, the great Hungarian Hope, has struck again. Lubavitch is the target. Again. I guess this is how the former Israeli MP intends to create a legacy for himself; to go out with a bang, and to let it be known that he was a true "Lochem Milchamas Hashem," fighting to keep Judaism out of the hands of the non-righteous. Although the book in which this story was printed (במחיצתם של גדולי ישרא-ל) is not brand-new, the story was brought up recently in a discussion about Moshiach and the belief in his imminent arrival, something seemingly not OK to believe in anymore, since Lubavitch somehow rendered it impure. Not just the Lubavitch of Dor HaShvi'i either, mind you, it's the Lubavitch of 1943 with slogans such as LeAlter LeTshuveh LeAlter LeGeulah - and that all that's needed for Moshaich to come now is the Tshuvah of Yidden that also somehow veered off the path set out for us by our Lithuanian Rabbis who are the true bearers of the torch of Torah and Mesorah.

You see my friends, I like Reb Yaakov Kamenecki, not that I knew him or ever met him, I just established a liking for him later in life. He was an easy-going man who taught BeDarkei No'am, unlike some of our contemporary "Gedolim." According to all accounts he was not a zealot who needed to make himself heard at every turn, and never screamed from the rooftops about other peoples' misdeeds. He was a Yid from Di Alte Heim who made a living by working hard and raised a nice family of Talmidei Chachomim. Interestingly, his son Nosson, probably the only one who writes about him "like he saw it," seems to speak out of both sides of his mouth when he discusses his father. One one hand he's this somewhat self-educated and very Mentshliche man who's astounded by the ignorance and naivete' of his Talmidim when it comes to secular knowledge, and on the other he's this zealot who's very worried about people's intentions when they do Mitzvos, as if we do for all the right reasons...

The story here is as follows. (I doubt the accuracy of the story - HT) When Reb Yaakov was living in Toronto - this must be back in the '40's - a Yid came to him and told him that he took upon to himself to begin keeping Shabbos because he heard from "Anshei Chabad" (a term meant to be derogatory, btw) that Moshiach is coming - that their "Rebbe" (quotations are the original's) was soon to appear as Moshiach - and how will it look if Moshiach comes and he's Mechalel Shabbos? "Don't believe them," Said Reb Yaakov, "Moshiach - LeTZa'areynu - is not coming yet." You need to keep Shabbos anyway, whether or not Moshiach is coming. He then went on to explain to the Yid the essence of the holiness of Shabbos, and how he must refrain from doing business on that holy day. He also explained to this Yid how to believe in Moshiach, There's no Mitzvah to believe that Moshiach WILL come anyday, just to believe that he MAY/CAN come any day. I guess the Yid thanked him for clarifying these issues to him, thanked him, and left. I also assume that his store was again open for business next week, but that may be me getting ahead of myself. Like I said, I doubt the story is true, for numerous reasons, but I still need to address it.

When the Yid left those around Reb Yaakov (which is probably a lie, since I doubt he had "Shtub-Mentshen" in Toronto) asked him why he discouraged this Yid from (believing in Moshiach's imminent arrival and) keeping Shabbos, , since at least if he believes he'll keep Shabbos, whereas now he'll definitely continue to be Mechalel Shabbos?! Reb Yakkov replied: What the "Anshei Chabad" accomplished here was imaginary, and the "loss will be greater than the reward." In the near future when this Yid will see that Moshiach has yet to arrive (how does he know that he won't come?! - HT) he'll begin to desecrate the Shabbos again, and furthermore, until know he believed with absolute faith that Moshiach will come one day, now that he's disappointed he'll lose one of the foundations of Yiddishkeit, the faith in Moshiach's arrival. This seems to follow the logic that we shouldn't put Tefillin on (irreligious) people since we need to check for - ahem - "Guf Noki." We thank Reb Shlomo ZGZ for the wonderful Mayseh, and the very important lesson we learn from it. Never tell a Yid to do a Mitzvah unless you're absolutely sure that all systems are in order, even if it's a Bori VeShemo.....

A Shayne Mayseh.

52 comments:

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

The stub mentchen were probably family, and his point was that you can't sell Yiddishkiet with lies. Why do you think that is such a contradiction to CHABAD!?!?! ( As evidenced by your negative reaction).

Hirshel Tzig said...

so why not write family? why the need to create a Hoyf for him?

Anonymous said...

I don't see your problem with this maaseh.

1. The meaning of the Ani Maamin is that you completely believe in the coming of Moshiach, and even if he tarries, despite this, you will wait for his coming every day. Saying that you must believe he will come that day may be an interesting pshat from the rebbe, but, as we see, other gedolim have seen it differently. In fact, I believe the rebbe, if he maintained this position, holds a unique view.

2. The rest is a matter of perspective. Whether you like it or not, people who have premised their entire faith on the Rebbe being Moshiach have been forced to make some pretty wild assumptions which the rest of the klal does not need. You don't know the rest of the story, but why assume it went badly? I find Rav Kaminetsky's concerns very reasonable and applaud his pragmatism.

3. The Guf noki matters is, at best, controversial, and I don't see why you base your opinions on a matter in which the rebbe, again, is a daas yochid, to assail someone else's values.

It would make sense to write, I don't see it this way, or this is not the way of Chabad. But to castigate another, deny a story just because you feel differently seems to be a little immature.

Mottel said...

Anon, perhaps look up the m'koros the Rebbe gives to his 'interesting pshat' . . .

This reminds me of a more current mayseh I heard out of Toronto -a child was hit by a car, wounding him very seriously. A call was made for all of the local children in cheder to say tehillim for him. One of the 'litvishe' elite there (I'm don't remember now if it was a rav or the principal of the cheder) didn't want the tinokos shel beis raban to say tehillim, as it would be 'machash' their emunah in tehillim when the child didn't recover . . .

Adey said...

ח לפיכך צריך כל אדם שיראה עצמו כל השנה כולה, כאילו חצייו זכאי וחצייו חייב; וכן כל העולם, חצייו זכאי וחצייו חייב: חטא חטא אחד--הרי הכריע עצמו והכריע את כל העולם כולו לכף חובה, וגרם להם השחתה; עשה מצוה אחת--הרי הכריע את עצמו והכריע את כל העולם כולו לכף זכות, וגרם להן תשועה והצלה. זה הוא שנאמר "וצדיק, יסוד עולם" (משלי י,כה), זה שצידק עצמו הכריע את כל העולם כולו והצילו.

But i see otherwise? The world is not destroyed? ITS ALL A LIE.....l

Anonymous said...

>>Anon, perhaps look up the m'koros the Rebbe gives to his 'interesting pshat' . . .

Mekoros notwithstanding, he stands alone. The story about the cheder is probably apocryphal. Can you prove it?

lubavitcher said...

I came here via a link on another site - could you please explain your URL????

I understand that this is a Lubavitcher's site. How can a Lubavitcher's site be anti tzemach (tzedek?)? is this an anti-moshiachist thing? Anyway, the name "circus tent" (I dont undertsand why such a name either) has no conenction to the URL either. I don't get it bichlal.

snag said...

An important mayseh, which brings out important yesodos about the inyan of Moshiach and the importance of emes.

Of course, Rav Yankev z"l doesn't need my haskomo, but I want to express my gratitude for this yesodosdiker maamar nevertheless.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"so why not write family? why the need to create a Hoyf for him?"

I think you are reading more into this than was intended!

Guravitzer said...

Lubavitcher, a bit of history. Tzemach was someone who wrote very critically about Lubavitch (although not always) and is now defunct online. Tzig is the anti Tzemach.

Tzig, the story is a bubbemaise. It is only telling of the author of the book, not of the purported biographee.

Hirshel Tzig said...

May I ask where you saw the link? on which site?

the Tzemach here is the moderator of a now defunct site, not c"v the Tzemach Tzedek.

Circus Tent is another reason, one that I keep to myself.

enjoy the site.

Monseyite said...

You claim that you 'like' R'Yaakov.
Nice.But wait, you wrote a nasty piece about him, yeah, back in the day when you lived in BP.That story was pretty silly, but whatever.
So, is this what you do to people you 'like', or is this just a way to make your 'original' piece seem less biased(btw, you just copied this off of Bechadrey, kudos for your 'originality'!)?
Someone called you the Z word, now I see why..

Hirshel Tzig said...

Z as in Zaftig?

Glad to see you're on board from way back then ;-) maybe we can meet at Tuvia's or Chai Pizza, eh?

I took it from Shturem.net, and there's a link here to it. They took it from Shturem. But don't let that get in the way of your "argument."

monsey said...

Just to add:
You misinterpret a Hebrew word and put in a nice 'shtoch'.
SOVEVIM=People around him, it does not equal the popular meaning of 'shtub-mentschen' in Yiddish.
And I'm not sure of the big wonder, R'Yaakov was a rov in Toronto, why do you think he would not have various people around him?

lubavitcher said...

The link was here: http://mordechai7215.blogspot.com/2007/12/kherson-geniza-unplugged.html

Anyway, I still think it dosn't make much sense. If this other guy is now defunct, so why not change the URL to soemthing that makes sense (I think blogger can make it automatically switch or something like that).

Anyway, the story may be true. The rov in the shul where I grew up used to say at the end of every drasha, "May we be zocheh to things that we are supposed to be zocheh to." I asked him what that meant and he told me, "I don't want to say Moshaich or Geula, because what if it never happens?"

Hirshel Tzig said...

Lubav:

find out how and I'll be grateful.

monsey said...

Help me with the logic, Circus Tent.
'I took it from Shturem'
Wow, so that makes it 'original', right??
Well, seeing some of your 'original' posts is also a problem, like what kind of kasketel to wear.....Nice mature and 'interesting' subjects you raise in the Circus....

Hirshel Tzig said...

the cold Monsey air must be getting to you....

blogs are commentary on news and things of that nature. They're also the musings of the blogger. Start your own and do as you wish.

monsey said...

Monsey is getting to me.
Used to be nice before the various nutters descended on us en masse.I'm all for variety, but when crazy and negative elements grow to big such as the Neturei Karta and Lubavitch, yes Lubavitch!Redid their ZZ lately and we are going to be driven crazy by their various mivtzoim and mushugassen.
Besides for all the chassidem who are living off the 'Geeteh Fetter' aka as the tax paying suckers.Time to move or buy a 'hoicheh beeber hit' and move to 'Kaiser'..


Written a bit facetiously but this is something to blog about, trying to live with the various crazy streams of Chareidim

Hirshel Tzig said...

Now I see what REALLY bothers you....

See my post here about the recent elections

Ma'aravah said...

Monsey- It is very geshmack when someone like you gets up and states what is really bothering him. This way, instead of engaging in philosophical debate, we can call a spade a spade-- you are simply spiteful. Just look back and read what you wrote- poshut shocking.

Also, to all those that defended R' Yakov's (alleged) position, looks like Adey's response was on the money, no? This would explain why it fell through the cracks.

monsey said...

Maarava,
Many things bother me , just like other people.
One of the things that bothers me is that people(apparently like yourself)move in on my turf and live off my taxes and try and force me to do things their way, whether the NK freaks or the Lubavitcher bt's(and freaks!)

You are probably one of the people who does not have to work for a living, because others do it for you!

Do you call not wanting to support leaches spiteful??

Hirshel Tzig said...

I mean to change my URL without losing readership. Also, the links I have on other sites will be rendered dead. I need an automatic redirect to a different URL.

Mottel said...

Anon: I heard the story from someone I trust and know to be an ish ha'emes . . . As for m'koros the point is to show that the Rebbe is not a yachid.
Tzig: You see now that I'm good for business . . .
Move the blog to a new URL, then make a new blog under the old one, with a forwarding address to the new one -that's the best I can do.

Hirshel Tzig said...

slow down!

Tell me again in Poshute Osyos.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'd like an automatic forwarder please. Is that too much to ask?

U' N' said...

tzig, the only way you can define yourself is an anti-something. why deny your nature ? instead, give another stab to some dead dude ...

Hirshel Tzig said...

it's one way, not the only way. You, on the other hand define yourself as what?!

Anton said...

as a maker of tzig stew.

Old Timer said...

Heard this story many-app.40-yrs ago. It was generally accepted as true.

Anonymous said...

anyone who knew reb yaakov zatzal knows just how independent he was from 'shamosim mitshleers and fellow travelers.
chabad will never have the guts to admit what a mortal blow they have delivered to the whole moshiach concept by tieing themselves to a false messiah

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous 8:00

The Moshiach was dead. Thanks to Lubavitch people believe that it'll be a human being born to a mother and father, not just a Ruach that supposedly comes down from heaven riding a white donkey. So please, save the lecture for another group.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'm shocked that U N - the great defender of anything pure and holy - has let the comments of Mr. Monsey here go unpunished. I seem to remember that when I even mentioned being upset with the expansion in Monsey how he jumped out of his seat, calling me "an Anti-Semite Habu Lugir." Here we have an all-out attack on thousands of Jews, including U N's NK buddies, and NOTHING!!!

Is this an objective man, or another one of the endless amount of Chabad-haters, albeit with a twist?!

U' N' said...

Tzig, a comment was made, I didn't actually _post_ it but since nobody else will, I guess i'll take the honors.

Mr. Monsey can call up Mr Bodner and take all the money he has to offer - if he's solvent at that moment of course, which may or may not be the case - but not many mosdos are interested in that, Spinka making a good point here.

Skver made Monsey livable in so many ways and paved the way for all those who came after. I haven't heard a single relatively valid claim against Skver. They don't live off your taxes, frankly I doubt that Monsey is responsible for a nice chunk federal budget revenue.

And if Mr. Monsey is so bothered by NK members, both of them, and all the leeching biber-hitten - why not move to tzig's backyard ? I'm sure he'll make room, and zoning in NH is getting softer and softer. Tzig, i'm sure you can claim a farm subsidy or something.

But at least Mr. Monsey isn't a habu-lugir , he sounds like a genuine sodomite.

יוסף דוב said...

חשובער לייענער
דא וויל איך באשיצן דעם כבוד פון דעם גרויסן גאון ר' יעקב קאמענעצקי זצ"ל.זיינדיק א פרישן יונגערמאן האב איך געהאלטן א געשפרעך מיט דעם גאון האדיר רמד"ב ריבקין זצ"ל - דער געוועזענער ר"י אין תורה ודעת. אין מיטן דרינען האב איך דערמאנט אז אין א קורצע וויילע גיי איך באזוכן ר' יעקבן. האט ר' בערל מיר געזאגט- איך האב א בקשה צו אייך. איך האב געהערט א מעשה אין ר' יעקבס א נאמען וויל איך וויסן צי דאס איז אמת צי ניט. און ר' בערל האט מיר דערציילט די דאזיקע מעשה טאקע מיט א סאך ענדערונגען אבער מיט דעם זעלבן אינהאלט. זיינדיק ביי ר' יעקבן האב איך איבערגעגעבן אי די מעשה אי ר' בערלס א פראגע. האט ר' יעקב מיר באקוקט אין פנים אריין מיט זיין אייגנארטיקן בליק, א שמייכל געטאן און געזאגט בזה הלשון: יונגערמאן, איר ווייסט דאך מסתמה אז א מעשה האט א חזקה אז זי וואקסט א בארד. איך וואלט ניט געזאגט עפעס אנקעגן א בפרושן מבי"ט. איך האב נאר געזאגט דעם אידן אז טאמער ער ( משיח הייסט עס-י.ד.) איז אימיצער אנדערש זאל ער ניט אנטוישט ווערן. קוקנדיק אויף מיר האט ער פארשטאנען אז איך בין ניט באקאנט מיט דעם מבי"ט האט ער מיר דערקלערט אז דער מביט זאגט אז "אחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא" מיינט ניט אז ער קאן קומען היינט נאר ער וועט קומען היינט.אייגנטלעך, דאס וואס הרוצה בעילום שמו ( אנאנימאס) זאגט אז כביכול דער ליובאוויטשער איז א דעת יחיד - דאס איז אין גאנצן ניט ריכטיק. איך האב גראדע קיינמאל ניט געזען דעם מביט ציטירט דורך דעם ליובאוויטשער אבער א לאנגע ריי פון גדולים האבן אים זיכער יא ציטירט. צו דערמאנען נאר א פאר- דער חפץ חיים, דער מנחת אלעזר, דער ישמח משה זצ"ל וכו' וכו' וכו' .איך וויל ניט אריין אין דער פרשה פון גוף נקי ( כאטש זאגן אז דאס איז דעת יחיד איז פשוט ניט אמת ) ווייל מען וועט מיך גלייך באשולדיקן אז איך באשיץ נאר חבד ווען די גאנצע כוונה מיינע איז געווען צו מיגן זיין אויף ר' יעקבס כבוד
י.ד.

Anonymous said...

can you translate the jewish words in english?

U' N' said...

If there were even a hundred yidden who really really really wanted Moshiach to come and believed in it, he'd already be here.

Anonymous said...

>>If there were even a hundred yidden who really really really wanted Moshiach to come and believed in it, he'd already be here.

There are def. one hundred yiddine who "really really want" Moshiach to come.

Mottel said...

U'N' if there were ten who meant it with an emes

I live in Monsey too! said...

un:

Skver made Monsey livable in so many ways and paved the way for all those who came after.

I find it hard to believe that a whole village of several thousand people, most of whom are on public assistance, most of whom don't work, can be an asset. Not that I have anything against them, I just wondered about the veracity of your comment. The fact that there was a Skver may have done just as damage as good....

Shkoyech.

Anonymous said...

Skver are a bunch of schnorrers who 'raid' all the 'moderneh' places such as Queens, The Five Towns, Monsey,Lakewood.Leave with millions to support their welfare clones.
But why not?Lubavitch does much more schnoring, is much more obnoxious and are not even Jewish!

Hirshel Tzig said...

Mr natchalnik:

This is where I cash in all those times I let you rant, unchecked. Now you need to give this 2-bit punk "anonymous" a "beating" he'll never forget.

The floor is yours.

Anonymous said...

I don't think we want to start with the Skveirra now, you see the way things are going with The esteemed Rebbetzin Hilary, it does not look like they''ll get any presedential pardons from her

U' N' said...

tzig, why would I care about burps of some anonymous idiot, who probably anyway is berele. The only charge against Skver that sticks is their eagerness to accept money from less then clean sources (and I don't mean the federal taxpayer). They were scorned for this in Israel, but in US it doesn't seem to bother many.

If

berl, crown heights said...

Yosef Dov,
You write beautifully and are always just a pleasure to read!

U' N' said...

tzig,

so the maase must be phony because it doesn't add up to your image of RYK z"l, but both the geniza and the fake letter about poilishe idiots MUST be true even as they run contrary to a whole laundry list of undisputed facts ?

snag said...

See the current Yosed p.48 where an einikel of Rav Yankev zt"l writes about his zeide and talks about a mayseh which is similar to this one to a degree which occurred when he was in Toronto re someone attempting to bring about shmiras Shabbos using Moshiach. It doesn't mention Lubavitch (that doesn't mean that the mayseh as given by R. Lorincz didn't happen as well, or that Rav Yankev wouldn't have agreed with it. Perhaps there was more than one mayseh shehoyoh).

It seems that Rav Yankev had a clear shita about such things.

Guravitzer said...

Natchalnik, you're losing it (even more). The story didn't happen because reliable sources sat it never happened.

Anonymous said...

This week's (Parshas Bo) English Yated printed an article from R Mordechai Kamentzki (RYK's grandson) in which he recounted this story with significant differences. First of all, the story has no connection with Lubavitch - there was a itinerant maggid who came to town on Shabbos saying that Moshiach was coming that Monday. A businessman who RYK was being mekarev to shemiras Shabbos came distraught to him wondering what was going to be with him... The question was asked to RYK by his Rebbetzin. I never read RSL's account.

U' N' said...

guravitzer, you never found it. What "reliable sources" "sat" it never happened ? tzig ? because it doesn't shtimm with his imagination of RYK whom he never met ?

I'm not insisting that the story happened or is accurate. It's just the inconsistent and proudly hypocritical revisionism that needs to be underlined.

Now, some really reliable sources said that the geniza is a forgery. When you'll address at least one of them, as they say, to the point - then your words may be worth a quarter.

Guravitzer said...

The fact that a foul mouthed menuval like you claims the geniza is a forgery is the greatest proof that it is not.

U' N' said...

guravitzer, you're a pathetic retard (a typical sample), unable to string together a penny worth of argument. you and your buddies berele, shmarya, tzig et al aren't capable of putting together even a single paragraph that wouldn't reek of knee jerking paranonia and ad hominem attacks, which is just your way of admitting total bankruptcy, online and probably offline as well. if that's your and your rebbes greatest proof - nu nu, i'll have it in mind.