Wednesday, January 23, 2008

Shnayim Ochzin B'kicsi Papa



There was a Rov in Montreal for the last Fifty Years named HaRav Yaakov Yitzchok Naiman z"l. To some he was known as the Kicsi Papa (small Pupa in Hungarian) Rov. He was a Talmid of the VaYaged Yakkov and of his son the "VaYechi Yosef" of Pupa, and a Belzer Chossid. As a matter of fact they were very proud of him in Belz; he was one of the few older Chassidim who stayed in Belz and were Chassidim of the current Rov; many others left and either joined the Machnivker Group, or just stayed in their old Shtiblach, never pledging allegiance to any group, but never joining the new Belz either. Rav Neiman was a real Rov from Di Alte Heim, spending most of his time learning and davening, and setting up a beautiful community in Montreal. He was appointed by Rav Aron Belzer zt"l, and served there to his passing day one year ago. Up until 2 years ago Rav Naiman had a plot reserved for him in the cemetery at Har HaMeNuchos next to the Belzer Rov Zt"l, but he suddenly sold it and asked to be buried in New York State, near the resting place of his Rebbe the Pupa Rov zt"l.

So, now the debate has begun; has he switched allegiances and no longer wanted to be associated with today's Belz or was there something else here? He seems to have said that there was a Taam Komus and that he'd not discuss it with anybody, and that's probably what it was. After all, one doesn't decide after all those years that he was wrong all along, especially since the Chelkoh was next to the previous Rov. Then there's the issue of the Pupener maybe taking too much "credit" (for lack of a better term) for Rav Naiman; They'd like to think of him as a major Chossid of today's Rebbe in Williamsburg. Judging from the Matzeivoh they put up in time for his first Yohrtzeit one can see how they took full advantage of the fact that he chose their Beis Olem as the place for him to be interred; making him into a full-fledged Pupener. And so, the tug-o-war continues; Zeh Omer Hu MiShelonu, ViZeh Omer Hu MiShelonu, so what are we to do? Will he have no rest as the 2 groups fight it out?!

See Bechatzros HaChassidim (if you can...)

20 comments:

yehupitz said...

Mysterious...
That still doesn't compare to the Shnayim Ochzin of the Sridei Eish, the greatest Kevura story of all time.

Hirshel Tzig said...

oh? why not share it with the Oylem here?

Peyshe Der Baal Agoleh said...

http://www.famousrabbis.com/sarna1.htm

paragraph beginning 'honor of a friend'

Hirshel Tzig said...

Peyshe, Zog Oys Dem Emes

Did you have any help with that or did you know the story from before?

Peyshe Der Baal Agoleh said...

Der emes iz az ich hub a gutteh frient, un zein numen google...

oib du vilst ken er zein deiner a frient oich

Hirshel Tzig said...

yasher kochachem

schneur said...

The Montreal Popo Rav is also an "uncle" of the Belzer rav shlita. I believe Mrs. Rokeach is his wife's niece or something like that.
There were other zikne Belz who also did not leave Belz, like the Old Naroler Rav who recently passed on. He too was a loyalist. I am sue there were also many others. At that time there was NO Belz -Machnovka.
Popa was not a chassiduth in Hungary. The Poper rav was a Chassidic rav in Popa and a rosh yeshiva al derech hachasiduth, but was himself a heisser Belzer Chassid. So being both a Poper and a Belzer is not an issue.
Our Poper rav (Montreal) was also a sui generis figure. His father was a Status Quo rabbiner in Hungary who died there in 1956. By the way a sippur meyfes about the Rashab involves Neumann's great grandfather Mr. Bick a Ukrainian regugee in Pressburg who was a book dealer there. Kfar Chabad had it bearichus about 5-7 years ago in a Yontev edition.Very unusual background for a chassidic rav. He also served several Ashkenazic kehillos after the war like Adas Israel in Melbourne.
Even the Belzer Kehilla in Montreal was originally a patch work of Oberlander and Belzer who davened together. I guess later on the Oberlander just disappeared .
Perhaps too much is being made of the makom kevuraso.
The new Machne hacharedi has a lavishly illustrated supplement about the rav. Last year some Poper chugim published a kuntres with many pictures about him after the shloshim. I saw it , but have been unable to buy it.
Judaism does not demand exclusivity there is One G-D but one can have several rebbes and belong to more than 1 chug.
Zecher zaddik Livrocha

Tzfania said...

See ha'arois ubee'urim and a Koivetz from the Budapest yeshiva regarding his being a son of one of the two girls who the Rebbe (Rashab) Nishmaso Eden married off....

Anonymous said...

Scneur
Its Rabbi Bick and not Mr. Bick he wrote a few nice Seforim on Rambam etc..

schneur said...

Anonymous.
I certainly would tend to agree that Bick was a Talmid Chochom, although I admit to not knowing his books. Given the inflation in use of the term rabbi I reserve that title for someone who was meshamesh berabbanus , amarbitz tOre , klei kodesh etc. And by the way thats the way the title rav (rabbi) was used in east Europe, before the war.
In the shtetlech even shochetim and baale batim who were known lomdim were not called rav .Certainly lay people in Chabad like Shmaryahu Gourary, and Mordecai Dubin were talmide chachomim but were never called Harav.
Check out the pre war orthodox press in POland and you will see what I mean.
But I certainly did not mean to slight Mr-Rabbi Bick. Zecher zaddik Livrocho, gadol marabban shmo !
In the US today there are no orthodox jews who are not rabbis.I am not sure what most of them have semicha in ...

Anonymous said...

by the way rav avrom bick was a true gadul betorah as you can see from his seforim and mr. is not a befitting title (by the way reb menachem ziembe ztzal wasn"t either a ruv anyware and he was the undisputed gaon of poland), as far as rav neiman is concerned he was nt only a loyal belzer chasid he was actualy was the ruv"s foster father and the one who married him of and the vishnetzer rebbr used to call him "mechuten"

Anonymous said...

by the way it wasn"t two years ago that he changed his mind it"s going back at least ten years, and the reason he stated was that he didn"t want to be taken to eretz yisrael because of the zohar etc.

Anonymous said...

he was a true belzer chusid, and a loyal talmid of the pupa ruv ztzal, actualy he was like son to his father the vayagid yakov

Willoby Sheezel said...

schneur said...
Judaism does not demand exclusivity there is One G-D but one can have several rebbes and belong to more than 1 chug.

>>

Yeah. tell THAT to any Lubavitcher ...

simantov said...

Rav Neiman was known as the Pupa Rov, since he was rov of Pupa after the war

Nisht kein Belzer said...

schneur said...
Even the Belzer Kehilla in Montreal was originally a patch work of Oberlander and Belzer who davened together. I guess later on the Oberlander just disappeared .
----------------------------------

Who were the "real" Belzers in the kehilla? One for sure YL, the rest were Oberlander and they disappeared by metamorphising into Belzers.

Blog about Belz

http://belz-austrian-empire.blogspot.com/

Pictures of Belz

http://www.pbase.com/jolka/image/85430885

MJR said...

shneur, you are so right re the use of the title "rav" or "harav".

once upon a time (even until 30/40 yrs ago) one could actually learn something from a title written on someone or from a nusach matzeiva.
today everyone is "harava hachasid hamefoiar" etc..

U' N' said...

As Satmarer Rebbe zy"a put it to the Nagy Pápa Ruv (or was it , דו ביסט געװען א גרױסער רב, און דו ביסט געװאָרען אַ קלײנע רעבבע . Or was it the Tzelemer Ruv ?

chchick said...

I appreciate every time I get a wedding invitation addressed to Mr and Mrs ... My husband is not a practicing Rabbi, and though he may be learned it is more than proper to address him as Mister. His self esteem is still intact. Lets cut the bull****.

Anonymous said...

95 %of Belz is Oberlander even the Rov is 50 % magyar thats why he is a major success in being a great CEO