Reb Mottel - Photo From Here
I'll need your input here; My opinion has yet to be formulated.
The latest "Kovetz Nezer HaTorah" was recently dropped off in every shul in the tri-state area, some in large quantities. It seems to be quite a serious periodical, with contributions from serious Chassidishe Talmidei Chachomim. I was told that there was a Shtikkel there from Reb Mottel Zilber, the other Stutchiner Rebbe, so when I saw it in shul I picked it up and looked for that piece. The little I know about Reb Mottel and his Chevrah is this: After the old Stutchiner Rebbe passed away in approx. 5742 His grandson Reb Lazer (?) Yudkowsky - a "Litvisher Gevoren Chassidish" who learned in Philly - was made MeMaleh Mokom, at least as far as inheriting his Zayde's Beis HaMedrish was concerned. Some of the Stutchiner Chassidim chose the Chossid Reb Mottel Zilber (son in law of Rav Moshe Wolfson) as their leader, and they went and started another shul in Boro Park. Reb Mottel is a Baal Avodah who puts lots and lots of Kochos into davenen, as well as being "into" serious Limud HaChassidus. His Shiurim are attended by many serious Chassidishe Bochurim and Yungeleit, many of them devoted MeKushorim. The shiur that's featured in this Kovetz is based on the Agroh DiKalloh of Rav Zvi Elimelech of Dinov, the Bnei Yissoschor zt"l.
It turns that the piece is Lang vi di Golus, and on a short Shabbos there wasn't really when to learn it, so I've yet to see it. What I have been told by a friend who skimmed the article is that Reb Mottel seems to have prepared his Oylem for what has become the sad reality realized by all; namely that today's Tzaddikim and Rebbes are lacking their ancestor's Tzidkus and Gadlus. While some may be surprised at this approach it it better than what some others have done. Other groups see what they have and decide that the Rishonim - their current Rebbe's ancestors - were probably not much better. At least Reb Mottel sees like it is; that we're living in a Dor Yosom like never before, he just chooses to make due with it. This may not sound like such a novel idea after all, since most of us know of the phrase "Yiftach BeDoro KiShmuel BeDoro," it just doesn't bode well for us. Yes, we realize that the generations and is leaders are declining, and that these are all signs of the IkVesoh DiMeshichoh, but is this what we want in a Rebbe? After all, if you've come to terms with the fact that the person you see as your leader - the one who serves as the Tzaddik who connects you with the Aybershter - is no Tzaddik after all, then why is he your Rebbe, try and find a Rebbe who is a Tzaddik!
47 comments:
I skimmed this post but I have a huge problem with any assertion that todays leaders are lacking compared to the previous generations. Rather this is a smoke screen to hide the cultural shortcomings. And here are the two reason for the katnus.
1. Gadlus is the result of dreaming, of being and innovator, willing to break with the past, open the new horizons (see talmidey hamaggid). Naturally these qualities are liabilities in hareidy culture. Hence the product.
2. In the past the leaders had a semblance of legislative and executive power in their communities. Will botey dinim relegated to the toilets the result are for all to see.
No! people today are as smart and as spiritual as before.
What you say is true is some respects, but let's face it: People raised in today's society cannot possibly be as spiritual (at least Torah spirituality) as years past. The materialism simply doesn't allow it.
if you pile on cliche on top of the other, it doesn't mean i will buy this for a second. No! so called materialim is another invented smoke screen to hide the real reasons.
so what is the real reason?
Not that Reb Motl Zilber is therefore against calling himself a rebbe, and is considered roysh hachaburo in Stuchin.
Reb Motl Zilber once gave a shiur on the subject "Derech haBaal Shem Tov" (you can get a tape in Stuchin). There he spoke about the subject of concealment of the light of chasidus (this concept is mentioned in Chayey Moharan, and wad as well articulated even in stronger by the Mogen Ovoys from Kopust). According to Reb Motl, what is left today is only the reshimu, but one is obligated to work with what is left, and not to fall into complete chitzoynius.
While this idea is correct, there are those who have something to add. In Breslov it is said, that through the Rebbe and his talmidim the light will be preserved until Moshiach. Somewhat similar statements where made in Izhbitz/Radzin, and also in Chabad. (I don't know if anyone made such open statements elsewhere).
So according to that, one either has to work with reshimu, or become a mekushor to a tzaddik who preserved the light.
I meant "note" in the beginning.
Hirshel
Please do a gemach and scan the article, otherwise I will not have a opportunity to see it.
Before seeing the article I will comment something strange in Reb Mottel belief system, he believes that the Stuchiner Baal Minchas Yehuda ZT"L was Nishmas haRopshitzer and the new Baal Shem, even tough nobody besides him thinks that way, so what brings him to the conclusion that the Rahcmistrivker,Machnuvker,Amshinover are not the Tzadikim of the Noam Elimelech? because he is not ready to be mevatel himself to them?
I would appreciate a honest answer to a perplexed soul like me.
I'm with Tzemach on this one. Planned obsolescence is not a Jewish concept. Ubocharto BaChayim, Mayim Rabim Lo Yuchlu Lechabos, are part of Torah Nitzchis.
http://www.derechhamelech.org/audiofiles/Special%20Guests/R%20Zilber/Rav%20Zilber%20-%20Essence%20of%20Chassidus.mp3
very hard to hear
By the way, the story in Stuchin happened differently.
When the Michas Yehudah passed away on Cheshvan 9, 1981 there was a succession dilemma. He had only one child Chana who was married to Ovadia Yudkowsky, a litvisher talmid of R' Aaaron from lakewood.
some in the shule advocated that one of the Eineklach should become Rebbe while others were reluctant and had the son in law Ovadia installed as unofficial Rav, when this happened a large group (led by the Zilber family) broke away and formed their own Beis Medrash.
Eventually the original group feuded with Ovadia Yudkowsky and back to the orginal idea his eldest son Leizer eventually became Rebbe. Apparently, R' Leizer was trained in the Nigunim and minhagim by R' Zilber... For some reason Stuchin has remained divided with no reconciliation in sight
strangely enough, I almost agreed with TA. tfu tfu. R' Motel is a very deep and respected individual, although unfortunately (but fortunately for him) not my cup of c2h50h.
but the truth is that nobody bothers to understand the fundamental paradigm shift. Today it's no longer about the "heads". Power is slowly but surely being transformed to the masses, amchu yidden; our days are qualitatively different from any generation before this one. No more does the oiven-uhn decide for everyone else how to run the world, but everybody is a decider pro se. Main reason being of course the geographic compression and intermingling of all layers, all parties and all former geographies. Downside is that those who do, have to do בחשאי but one ערום ביראה will turn that to advantage.
what is it about so many Rebbes that they had to take Litvishe Eidems?
The Amshinover
The Stutchiner
The Boyaner (maybe not Litvish)
were there no chassidishe bochurim to be had?
Guravitzer said: Planned obsolescence is not a Jewish concept
Rebe Reb Zusha miAnipoli ztz"l long ago predicted, that before the Moshiach there will be almost no tzadikim available for the generation. (See in Menoyras Zohov).
This can mean open tzadikim, since we know there are always 36 hidden ones. You can call it planned or not planned, but ultimately everything is Hashgocho Protis. You can't escape that.
mib: For some reason Stuchin has remained divided with no reconciliation in sight
One obvious reason is the teaching of Reb Motl. He gives shiurim in Kabolo (though to his closed chaburo) being one of the most outstanding Kabolo teachers in US, and open public shiurim in Chassidus for bochurim and yungelayt, which are serious enough to cause a displeasure of some "general public". The other Stuchin didn't approve of such things, however Reb Motl considered it to be important enough, not to be afraid of the rift.
He gives shiurim in Tania for bochurim (though it is not really learning Tania - as with all his shiurim it is just used as a base for discussed subject).
For yungelayt he gave shiurim in Likutey Moharan, Toyro Oyr/Likutey Toyro and Igra dePirka and other sforim from Baal Bney Yissoschor.
Behaltener
where did he learn all that Kabolloh and Chassidus, on his own? did he have a Rebbe?
"You can't escape that."
yes you can. Not every nevuah is mekuyam, not every nevuah is mekuyam the way you interpret it. On top of a b'feireshe mishna, VeAmech Kulam Tzadikim.
He started to learn Kabolo from the previous Stuchiner Rebbe I think. After his ptiro he was close to the Amshinover, and he instructed Reb Motl not to stop his Nistar studies (even though Reb Motl wanted to stop). After that he spent a lot of time in hisboydedus in forests and etc. (I've heard that from his talmidim).
He also regularly goes to yeshiva "Shaar haShomaim" in Yerusholaim.
Hasidism and their leadership style are an Eastern European product. Eastern Europe was a haven for mystics and charismatic leaders. In Russia especially, the best example is Rasputin and the power he attained over the House of Romanoff.
In Western Europe their was more rationaalism as a result of the Haskalah. In the 20th century the big exceptions were the two evil charismatics, Hitler and Mussolini, but over all Western Europe and the West, in America and in those places it penetrates, like secular Israel, there is not much tolerance for the mystical, spiritual ways that had currency in Eastern Europe, or further afield, that can still be found in the Far East with belief in Gurus and the power of spirits and demons.
Thus, after the Holocaust, with the bulk of the world's Jews living in the United States which is the dominant cultural power, and with the United States being a modern RATIONALIST, industrial, scientific and technological super-power, its ethos and Weltanschauung automatically undermine, weaken and even ridicules the Eastern European and Far Eastern outlooks based on mysticism (such as old-fashioned Hasidism) and charismatic leadership styles such as Chasidishe Rebbes, Oriental Gurus, and aspirant "Tzadikim" in favor of faceless technocrats, bureaucrats, scientists and rationalists of all kinds.
Proof is that the Nobel Prizes, the modern West's highest awards, are mostly given to the scientific and rationalistic fields (the one exception being the award for literature.)
That there are no "Noble Prizes" in the world for "greatest spiritual accomplishments" or "greatest mystical leader" or "greatest books of religion" should tell you what the modern Western world values.
The fact that Hasidism, an inherently Eastern European phenomenon had to relocate to America, the pinncale of the Western world has come with a BIG price. On the one hand the freedom of religion in America and a great batch of initial Eastern Eoropean leaders allowed Hasidism to be established and grow. On the other hand the Western atmosphere and ethos of America has also had its impact on Hasidim and Hasidism and as the older Hasidic leadership passed away, the reality that was revealed was that the large numbers of Hasidim now to be found in the Western bastion of America had indeed been transformed into something new: "Western Hasidim" who were born into, exposed to, and imbued with -- whether they liked it or not -- greater degrees of Western values such as scepticism of the mystical world-view and of the claims of charismatics to be "wonder-men" or "healers" or "gutte-betters" so that ironically the West has pulled Hasidim away from the clutches of potentially predatory claimants to being "holy men" and moved them closer to the misnagdishe outlook that every person can and must have their own absolute direct kesher with the Eibisheter and that so-called "Tazdikim" are not such a necessity. Rebbes thus become nice to have around and to brag about ("meiner is besser vi diener") but they are not the bread and butter, ki heim chayeinu ve'orech yomeinu of a Chosid's life. As the old Yiddish song goes: Es iz nisht vi amul iz geven.
One could say that just as America's gentiles, lehavdil elef havdolas, are more Protestant and less Catholic, so are all Jews in America influenced by this mehalech. Whereas Catholics teach that God can only be served by and through following the Pope, the Protestants teach that the Pope is not needed and that he actually interferes or worse. In Western history, the Protestant Reformation followed from the Renaissance. Similarly, lehavdil elef havdolas, with the bulk of the world's Jew, frum and secular NOW living in the West for a long time already (WWII ended in 1945, over 60 years ago), whether they like it or not, they pick up the outlook that "Popes" and interlocutors with God can and MUST be questioned and jettisoned.
The American phenomenon is repeated in the State of Israel as the old-time Middle Eastern yishuv, with its roots in Eastern Europe is overwhelmed by the Westernization of Israeli society and with Haredim who are born and raised into a modern country and not into fardorbene shtetlach where a Rebbe was viewed as a ray of mystic light and grantor of salvation. Israeli Hasidim are not much different to any other Israelis, just that one group wears black and the other wears IDF army uniforms, but their mind-sets are more in sink with each other.
An Israeli Hasid today would have zero shaychos and compatability with his or her Eastern European elter-zaide and bubba. (Maybe one of the appeals and succes of Breslov today is that they have somehow discovred the "trick" of transporting people "back in time" to the grave of Rebbe Nachman itself in Umman in Ukraine which then evokes some kind of mystic paranormal psychic mental and spiritual reaction endemic to that part of the world, but that is another shmues.)
So to sum up, it's not that there are no Tazdikim or that the todays' Rebbes and Torah leaders leaders are on a lower intellectual or spiritual madreigah than previous dores, because there are more, not less, Hasidishe Jews and more, not less, genuine geniuses, and more not less talented and charismatic leaders available, but that they are havibg a harder time convincing the Haredi and Hasidic masses to follow in the way that previous doros in Eastren Europe lived and died by their Rebbes and rabbomin.
What has changed is the SURROUNDING CLIMATE, the avirah, the sevivah, it's the meshaneh makom meshaneh mazel effect, and the people are raised and educated in a differnt way, and think differently. They are not so open to bubba meises. There is an open media. People can read books, magazines, newspapers, and yes the Internet. People know that the West is good. It has better doctors, houses, banks and everything is better under a Western lifestyle. In such a milieu, Rebbes, Gurus, mystics, and all sorts of charismatic leaders and styles are devalued and viewed with scepticism.
Guravitzer: yes you can.
No you can't. Because anything that happens - is Hashgocho Protis. I meant - you can't escape that. The situation today is self obvious.
VeAmech Kulam Tzadikim means that everyone will eventually come to tshuvo, and turn evil to good, not that now simultaneously everyone is a tzaddik, which is obviously false.
East Meets West: Materialism smells bad.
East meets west: Let these "skeptics" read Kav haYoshor as a medicine. May be it will purge their rationalistic minds from shmutz.
A very interesting theory, "east meets west", but I do not think it fits with the reality. There is tremendous interest in America and Israel in "wonderworkers" and what is called by some "superstition". If there is any modern lack (and I am not convinced that there is anymore of a lack now then in previous generations), it lies in people's lack of interest in real avodah. Belief in the supernatural remains strong.
Belief in the supernatural is limited to certain groups, much like it was in the Old Country. Moving to America won't change that, just like moving to Israel didn't change Sefardic Jews much, and much like moving to the North didn't change the Blacks from the South.
The first tzivui after matan totah concerns avoda zora. Now why is Hashem warning them about this avaira at this particular time, when just a short time earlier "atem re'isem ki min hashomayim dibarti imochem"? Why would he suspect them of having thoughts of A"Z?
M"VR answers that this is in response to their insistence that "dabeir ato imonu v'nishmo'o, v'al y'dabeir imonu elokim pen nomus", and their desire to impose a memutzo between themselves and Hakodosh Boruch Hu, and like takeh happened by the Chet Ho'eygel
MV"R is Mori VeRabbi, I assume, but who is it?
So does he mean that all Memutzoyim are one step from A"Z C"V?!
Doesn't Rambam ?
East meets West:
You make some very valid points: America is different, the culture of america is rationalistic and materialistic and scorns anything metaphysical.
That is our challenge. And that might be why so many Chassidim are being influenced.
Nevertheless, it doesn't change the fact that the Rebbe - Chasid relationship is something real and necessary. It isn't about a charismatic wonder-worker who can dupe the unsophisticated masses.
THAT is what the 'enlightened' world teaches.
Friendly Anonymous:
Didnt' the Yidden first ask that Hashem speak to them directly, and only after their Neshamos left them twice, they conceded that it would be a better idea if Moshe speak to them?
And doesn't the fact that Hashem chose to give the Torah through Moshe (after all, the yidden didn't ask Hashem to call Moshe up on the mountain in the first place, and to communicate everything to them through Moshe, it wasn't up to the yidden that Hashem gave Moshe the luchos)tell us something about the place of a "Memutza" in the Jewish Religion?
It has always been about power and money which=power.
Shortly after the Maggids passing chasidim were busy with their favourite pastime:Fighting.Fighting for their Rebbes kovod, fighting for their rebbes kid etc..Once the war with the Misnagdim quieted down, it was a chasidic World War.
And it continues to this day.
Ein chodosh tachas hashemesh.
The Chasidic movement after the initial early generations went back to the old feudal ways of the pre-hasidic era, with one BIG caveat,once upon a time you needed to be learned to get a rabbinical position, with the hasidic era you just needed to be a Benshak,
son of .The rest is history obviously, when you need no merits, than you get a bunch of leaders who are money grubbing and primitive.Away with the merit system.The hasidic era is what brought down a big percentage of Easter European Jewry
Chiel, that's a BS from the likes of Nadler, Tzig et al. To get a Rabonishe position you had to be learned, period. Or else you wouldn't pass the "interview" and wouldn't get paid. And to get a Rebbisteve, which has nothing to do with Rabbonus, you had to show a lot more than that - competition between Rebbes in the old world was very stiff, it was much more acceptable than today to change allegiance and basically someone who wasn't cut for it wouldn't make it in the "rebbisteve" business. World was full of wandering bnesheks that were interesting only as a curiousity and others handed them sustenance donations on merit of their yichus, and that's about it. "Automatic" rebbisteve yerishe was a rare and exceptional event that came with a lot of drama and usually an exodus of a strategic core of inner people.
Not the case with the Lituhanian clans, which pretended to be based solely on scholarly merits, but in reality was ridden by nepotism and even worse succession dramas - mostly because as a rule there was no role equivalent to the role of a Rebbe in a chassidishe setting, and a hired-for-money Rov to pasken shaalos and such wasn't always cut out for the work that a Rebbe is cut out for.
so now I'm in the likes of Nadler, eh Khaver U N?
Am I responsible for the war in Iraq while you're at it?
Tzig, haven't you and your cohorts convicted the Zigelman-Weisz gang of nogoods way before Nadler ? If you substitute heilige Rizhiner for Chasam Soifer and Romania for Hungary, would his baloney stew not start strikingly resemble the antitzemach ramblings ?
Rebbetzin,
Sorry for the delay, but unfortunately I don't have a chmash at my job.
Please see Rashi on Devorim 5, 24: You weakened my strength until I was like a woman. For I saw that you were not anxious to bring yourself close to him out of love. Would it not have been better for you to learn from the mouth of the almighty, and not learn from me?
Not at all, my quadrupedal friend. I was talking about a memutzo hamafsik (vs. Memutzo hamechber).
It turns that the piece is Lang vi di Golus Hillarious and sad at the same time
U.N.
You are a big 'Moshe Kapoier' ipcha mistabranik.
You know very well that the whole chasidishe Rebisteve is not built on merit,not one iota.It's all about what your father was and what his father was, till you hit a name that had 'eigeneh verd'
By the Litvishe circles you needed to teach, to say a shiur, you were tested all the time,unlike some of the rebbes who apparently could not even read veda'l.
Btw, massive talmidei chachomim like R'Menchen Ziemba were treated like the next yukel on the block, probably because such people would be competition for the big honcho.
Chassidus has been a massive failure and left us with a bunch of leidiggayers with zeideneh gebleemteh chalaten and shvartse zokken walking around Boro Park and Willy bored and unemployed
Friendly anonymous, and anyone else interested:
Rashi(Shemos 19,9):
Moshe to Hashem: I heard an answer from them, that they want to hear from you. one cannot compare hearing froma shliach, a nd hearing from the king himself. we want to see our king!
Possuk (Shmos 20,16): And they said to Moshe, you speak with us and we will listen. Hashem should not speak with us lest we die.
Rashi (Devorim 5, 24): quoted above
Possuk: (Devorim 5, 28-29) hashem agrees with the Yidden and says "go tell them to go to their tents and you tay here with me and i will tell you the mitzvos..."
2 questions:
1. Hashem obviously planned to communicate through Moshe to begin with, untilt he Yidden asked otherwise. so how could it be held against them when they saw it didn't work out?
2. Hashem agrees with the yidden to go back to the original plan (speaking through Moshe). so it's a shaile on Moshe for saying otherwise?
Any answers?
Chiel
What did the Lakewood Kolel system bring on us? 1000's of yungeliet that learn maybe 3 3/4 hours a day
BTW
Reb Aron Tietelbam
The 2 Sanszer Rebbe brothers
Reb M D Unger etc.. can compete with Kotler Ezruchi and many Finkel family members.Non of the Rosh Yeshiva go to work if they are not capable of learning. How many Soloviechigs did you meet that have a 9 to 5 job?
Chiel, you're full of the BS theory that's all one big lie. Almost everyone known with a title "Rebbe" and a sizeable hoif were all very learned people, although there is no need for a "rebbe" to be a super-duper-baal-mepalpel. Despite what the "snag" propaganda machine and their suckups such as those frequenting this blog might want you believe, there were no amaratzim amongst the remarkable chassidishe leadership. And on top of that, genuine talmidei chachomim without rebbisteves were revered to no end, in most spectrums - from Kock to Stolin to Sanz to Ropszyc, respect was doled out, in particular, in accordance with quality and quantity of man's learning. And leidigeiers with bekeshes or equivalent of such are numerous in any sviva that doesn't send people to work - Lakewood, Bnei Brak or Skver, there is no difference. Geblimte chalaten don't make one a respectable member of society, just the opposite. And instances of purposeful "decapitation" of an entire segment of "chassidishe population" from talmidei chachomim were not just rare, I can only think of two such cases, and those should better be left alone for now.
Regarding R' Motl Zilber, one can't understand him and the whole Stochin gesheft without also understanding LY, veda"l. Both are a piece of Minchas Yehuda, but an opposite one. And all this is tumir veneelom.
Curious,
Eyn meshivin al hadrush, and pesukim (Devorim 5, 28-29) can be explained in the same vein, i.e. they "spoke" well, but Hashem wishes that their heart was in the same place as their mouth, "mi yiteyn vehoyo levovom zeh lohem".
To your question: My personal feeling is that one can't compare the level of the Jews at the time of yetziyas mitzrayim to their level when they stood at matan torah, at which time they were ready too hear from Hashem himself, at least as far as the aseres hadibros.
Likewise, one can't compare the (seeming) lack of a need for a memutzo at that time, to our urgent need for a memutzo bosor v'dom nowadays, while always being aware of the purpose, limitations, and inherent dangers of that function.
M'Inyan L'Inyan Shelo Beoso Inyan wasnt this where Reb Chatche of the famous Itche the Shikkur story came from?
I heard that there was more to the story that the Rebbe told him he shoudl learn Chitas and thats how he got better (even though they skip out this part)?
This thread looks over but ill throw in my two cents anyway.
Im 'tachpisenoh kamatmonim uz tuvin tiras hashem' (I'm going on memory there) To find true Yiras shomaim one has to search.
I agree with anon 1/28 6:18 what about the "rachcmistrivker, Machnuvker,Amshinover"
(I only know about the amshinover but ill trust anon on this one)
What about the skulener rebbe shlita
what about the toldos avrom yitzchak rebbe
R' motel himself is no small potatoes
bottom line is that somebody who really is looking for a chasideshe rebbe to be oived and be mevatel himself bileiv vunefesh and aho embodies the ideals of yesteryear can find one
but it might be off off broadway where there are no lights cameras or brownie points.
so maybe the chessorin is with us in the ezpass age we want evreything served up on a plate
r motel's right but there is always niskatnoo hadoros. we lost a generation due to the holocaust but we are now rebuilding we have post holocaust yidin like the amshinover and the avrom yitzchok. hang around them for a few days and watch yourself become a different person just from being in their daled amos. I know were all to busy sorry got to go just got an important e-mail ...
see Dixie Torah for quite a pnimiyustic shiur on the three weeks from R. Mottel !
Where does he get it? from the Shver ;)
Let it be known that I asked Rav Mottel shlita himself if he ever made a comment like this. He replied that he this comment: "Before seeing the article I will comment something strange in Reb Mottel belief system, he believes that the Stuchiner Baal Minchas Yehuda ZT"L was Nishmas haRopshitzer"
It was mentioned earlier: "Before seeing the article I will comment something strange in Reb Mottel belief system, he believes that the Stuchiner Baal Minchas Yehuda ZT"L was Nishmas haRopshitzer"
LET IT BE KNOWN THAT I ASKED RAV ZILBER HIMSELF if he ever made such a comment and he said absolutely not.
The same is true about an earlier comment that the Rav spent time in the forests doing hisbodedus. When he heard this his response was "sheker".
Lastly, anyone who refers to "the split" in Stutchin, or calls is a "quarrel" "machlokes" etc... obviously does not know much about the history.
Please be careful with what you choose to post, especially when speaking about Tzadikkim.
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