Saturday, January 26, 2008

Me, Hate Hasidim?!


Allan Nadler - from here

Allan Nadler (himself!) responding to Circus Tent: Religious Indignation:

I hate to intrude on this loshen hora-fest with a reality check, but allow me to introduce myself. This is Allan Nadler writing. I won't bother to defend myself against all the astonishing bile that is being directed against me (why ruin so many people's idea of fun ?), but let me just correct some factual errors:

1) The Shaar Hashomayim was once, many decades ago, part of the Conservative movement (it was established almost 175 years ago and that was the only movement that existed in North America at the time), but it is a traditional shul, with a mechitzah. It never had mixed seating, not for one day! Since I left the rabonus there (in 1991)all of the rabbis have been Orthodox musmakhim, two from YU and the current rabbi from YCT. The Siddur that is currently used is the Artscroll. The davening and all other conduct at the shul is Orthodox. The bobeh-mayseh about the wedding is utter nonsense. The shul's catering/kitchen is under the Vaad Ha'ir of Montreal. There are all kinds of Yeshivishe and Hasidishe weddings there; it is a community synagogue, and is banned by no one. The late Rav Hirshprung officiated with me at many weddings there during the years I was the Rabbi. Rav Leib Baron gave a Talmud Shiur there for about 40 years. And so forth.....

2) I don't, chas ve-sholom hate Hasidim. I love and admire them; except of course when they turn out to be insane messianists, or simple ganovim. All I was trying to do in my article was make some sense of this Hillul Hashem by placing it in a historical and cultural context. You can disagree with my "pilpul" -- which is what all academic conjecture really is -- but why such personal animosity ? I didn't defraud the IRS. And I did try to explain why in the Hassidish velt, there is a perfectly legitimate historical reason to hate mosrim! It just so happens that it is misplaced in this country. We are not living in Tsarist Russia anymore; there are no special unjust Jew-taxes; the IRS isn't out to punish us. So, we have an obligation to behave ourselves in accordance with Dina de-Malchusa Dina.

3) I never, not for one day, attended Yeshiva University (contrary to Anonymous, who claims to know me personally). My smikhas are from Rabbi Leib Baron (former Rosh Yeshiva of Merkaz Ha-Torah and now in Israel) and Rabbi Zvi Hersh Tennenbaum, z"l, the former Av Bes Din of the Vaad Harabonim of Boston. Rav Baron was a talmid of Rav Elchonon Wasserman in Baranovitch and later was at the Mirrer Yeshiva in Poland and Shanghai. Rav Tennenbaum was a talmid of Rav Boruch Ber in Kamenetz. In that sense, of being their talmid, I am indeed a Litvak! My University studies were at McGill (BA) and Harvard (MA, PhD). At Harvard, my doctoral supervisor was the late Rabbi Dr. Isadore Twersky, himself also the Tolner Rebbe in Brookline, with whom I had a very close relationship.

4) My Zayde, on my mother's side was a Tolner aynikel. On my father's side, a Litvak who was born in Botosani, Rumania. There was a large emigration of Litvaks to Rumania in the 19th century, by the way.

5) Aside from all the hatred, there is also ridiculous praise: I do not have Yadin Yadin semikha. I never quoted Toysfes or Rishonim or Akhroynim "oysveynig" in my shiurim at the Shaar Hashomayim or anywhere else. Even if I had that kind of memory and bekius, which I do not, I wouldn't engage in that kind of shtik!

6) The correct title of my book referred to by one of you is "The Faith of the Mithnagdim." If you bother to read it, you will see that I harbor no antipathy for Hasidim.

7) And if you read my op. ed. article that appeared last summer in the Montreal Gazette, defending the Hasidim of Outremont against their real enemies -- the French Canadian anti-Semites, you'll understand how much I value and respect Hasidim and their communities.

7) Most importantly, I find it very sad -- and ironic -- that the focus of all this anger, these insults and the incredible distortions of reality, are not directed at the real criminals in this matter: the Spinker Rebbe and his cohorts. Just as in my article I bemoaned the misguided focus on the moser, Kasirer, now I am astonished that the focus is on me.

In normal literate society, the kind of article I wrote would be seen as an attempt to explain, if not justify, aberrant behavior, by looking to history. When white liberals try to explain, for example, the causes of the high crime rate in inner city black communities, by looking at the historical and social roots of the problem, the racists attack them as apologists. Here I do much the same thing -- to a largely secular readership of the Forward that has no understanding of Jewish history -- and this is the result.

50 comments:

yehupitz said...

Tzig,
He's right.

berl, crown heights said...

Alan,

I agree that all the personal vitriol directed here against you is unacceptable. Having said that, I would appreciate an explanation on the following:

1. Since the Spinka Rebbe was not convicted by the court of law, doesn't he deserve the benefit of the presumption of innocence at least from his Jewish brethren? Even the secular press accords this benefit to the accused. Why do you write about him and his people as 'criminal cohorts'? How about some sympathy toward a fellow Jew in his time of distress? You can still write about the phenomenon of hatred of the mosrim without displaying disdain toward the accused Jew. In other words, "why such personal animosity"?

2. Please explain the piece on the Ruzhiner Rebbe where you claim that "he infamously was fond of declaring, as a kind of personal motto, “All the money in the world belongs to me.”" Surely, you are aware that the revered Ruzhiner was quoting a posuk and that the homiletic intend of the quote was that all the splendor and riches of the world were created for the service of the Creator. The way you wrote about it – "to a largely secular readership of the Forward that has no understanding of Jewish history" – makes this truly holy man sound like a mafia thug. Can you not see that this is very offensive?

tuvia said...

dear "rabbi" your rabid hatred is open "the focus should not be on the moser but on the rebbe"this just proves where you are coming from who are you a grobe jung to voice an opinion the the emrei yosef z'l ? who are to call a person of torah & chesed a criminal

Anonymous said...

what angered the reader is that you put down one of the most revered rebbe"s of chasidic history just to "justify" as you put it one man"s unconvicted sin, and you call the commenters baaley loshon harah, it is unacceptible, to give credit where it is due yoyu wrote a beutiful pieace in the gazzete and i was realy moved by it at the time, but that dosn"t kasher everything your going to write in the future...
as far as sharei shamayim it is their turn to more traditional yidishkeit that caused some to start making wedding"s there during the last decade that dosn"t make a story that happened 40 yrs ago a bubba maaseh

Canuck said...

May I ask Prof Nadler where the comment was written on Erev Shabbos at 4:50pm?

In Montreal the Shkiah was at 4:50....

SatmarTC said...

Allan

u have a goyshe mentality
u can't see how precious a jew is
u want to show up as a big tzaddik on behalf of "dina demalchusa"and knocking down talmidei chachomim and great Rebbes, and now u want to impress us about your Rabbonus,lol, and books, lol
I think that the only place that we can read your books and articles is in the bathroom
look yourself at a mirror, do u look as a jew? Rabbi?
Why you don't u talk about you?
do u have a yarlmuka?
do u eat kosher? Shabbos?
this article is a chillul Hashem

Anonymous said...

Canuck,
Nadler lives in New Jersey, where the shkia was at 5:10 this week, you shtik holtz !

Nice try.

Canuck said...

anonymous

I was asking. I never said he lived in Montreal now, all I remembered was that he once did. Thanks for clarifying.

As far as me being a "shtick holtz," all I can say is Leykeh LeUmon SheOsani....

Anonymous said...

just read what he wrote about assaf"s book, and about holy kugel recently linked at the michtavim blog....

Burekh Ber said...

The problem for the people who hate what Nadler wrote is that they do not seem to understand the difference between his reporting on well document historical facts as well as current events -- some may be embarassing to some chassidim, but that does not mean they are not factual -- and personally attacking rebbes. If you looked at the major front page article in last week's LA Jewish Tribune, to say nothing of the article in the New York Times read by millions, you would understand that it is not Nadler who is exposing this terrible mayseh. He's trying to make sense of it for people who are already disgusted with the chilel hashem. If anything Nadler's article just gives some historical context.

Satmarc's disgusting comments are typical of hateful fanatics who will defend anything anyone with the title Rebbe, who wears a bekishe and a shtraymel, does no matter how big a chilel hashem, and thinks the chilel hashem is the fault of the person who writes about it....very intelligently in this case, as it so happens.
Mah inyen whether Nadler has a beard and wears a yarmulke etzel the fact that the Spinker Rebbe is a thief ?!
OK, fine, innocent until proven guilty....but do you think the FBI wasted a 5 year investigation on gurnisht ? Come on !
This is why people, not Nadler, but simple amharotsim, really do hate Hasidim. A lot of us have the mentality of the mafia and make all of us haymishe yidden look terrible.

snag said...

Re Nadler's article in the Montreal Gazette defending Hassidim - personally I was surprised about how nicely he wrote about them.

It can be seen at

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/editorial/story.html?id=5df545b1-8076-4f50-82c2-b7ef4c260db2&p=1

Anonymous said...

after Nadler writes a nasty article putting down Rebbes of all sorts he tries to expalin himself?

he is a shtik drek for what he did in front of the secular people who read this paper and I know a lot who do. His article is one of total disrespect and a complete put down of the holiest of holy within chasidm.

and by the way anyone who has any real experience with the legal system in our great country will tell you it is far from whistle clean with no agendas, Nadler the shtik menuvol is either in denial , ignorant or a shtik menuvol who knows the truth and cloaks it in righteous excuses.

as others have said how do you know what this Spinker gguy did that you are so quick to point fingers at him and where does this other shtik drek RK come off trying to save his skin with the life of thousands of this guys chasidim thaT IN YOUR ENTIRE ARTICLE YOU HAVE NO room to point that out

gay kaken oifen yam and if you are truly meaning of what you say write another article and ask for forgivenes of all the thousands of chasidm you offended with what you wrote

U' N' said...

Mr. Nadler's article is a shameful piece from any angle you want to look at it - academic, Jewish or simply contemporary journalism and legality.

First of all, your mutilation of facts and fiction, adjustment of numbers and upgrade of charges are almost libelous. "defrauded the American government of almost $35 million" ? Have you actually seen the indictment (which is five pages shorter then what you indicate) ? The largest number in it is $8,718,659 - the total amount of money that was "donated" in this fashion, of which $744,596 was "kept" - over the entire period, apparently. There are no charges of classic fraud in this indictment; indeed, there was no fraud, theft, robbery or any other extraction of property by illicit means. United States Government is alleging that the defendants laundered money, submitted false tax returns, evaded paying taxes and the usual potpourri of charges that come bundled and free of charge - conspiracy, "wire fraud" and "mail fraud".

While I'm not condoning their acts the entire cohort of defendants in the Spinka case haven't taken a penny of other peoples' money. But that's not the case with Kassirer, an interesting gentleman towards whom you're expressing much sympathy as he looks to you like a martyr for the "dina demalchusa" dissident movement. I'm not sure why, but you forget to mention that Mr. Kassirer as a result of this mesirah was let of the hook on a whole laundry list of cases of real securities fraud, embezzlement and investment fraud in which figures of over $131 million dollars were mentioned. He got off with very little blood - some disgorgement, some fines and that's about it.

The government let go of this Crook Deoraysa Vederabonon and his hundreds of millions of real stolen money and his fifty thousand dollars a week lifestyle, so that they could get to the pesky Rabbis from Boro Park. I am sure you know what kind of scum federal informants are and how far they go to entrap their victims. Here is a clear case of government letting go of real thieves in order to get a high profile Grand Rabbi, who netted all of an average of $90k a year from the scheme which went to support the moisad. Spinke Rebbe hardly lives a high life.

So you take this concoction of half truths and omissions and proceed to use it as a foundation to indict the entire "Hasidic" movement, and in particular the Romanian and Hungarian segments of it, via the route of Ruzhin and Sadiger, no less. Here again you continue with omissions, half truths and embellishments. Yes, it is true that the Heiliger Rizhiner had a truly fabulous way of living. He was alone in this way - nobody tried to imitate. Was he entitled to it ? By all means. Was it in any way, shape or fashion "decadent" ? None of the contemporaries, even those who strongly opposed what they saw as his children's continuation of such lifestyle, had anything other then words of absolute reverence, respect and submission. Essentially everyone is otherwise rather fragmented world of Chasidic politics of 1800's agreed on the uniqueness of Heiliger Rizhiner and on his kingly stance amongst the peers. Look at haskomos of seforim written by his children and about him - hassidim and misnagdim unite in their respect.

He had to serve approximately two years because Nikolay the Bloody saw him as a threat. And he also had a small but very dedicated team of yiddish "translators" and other collaborators. Nobody is drawing parallels between Heiliger Rizhiner and Rabbi Weisz, or between FBI and Tzar Nikolai, but it's not a secret that many characters in DOJ harbor more then just resentment towards high profile Chassidic individuals, more so after the Skvere maase, and that likely played a role in severity and breadth of this case. Remember - DOJ can put anyone in prison, if they really want. It's a question of selective enforcement.

Your attack on Rizhiner dynasty it outrageous and misleading. To hang the "intellectual decline of Romanian chassidism" on presence of Rizhiner children is a blasphemous lie that one would expect from hateful atheistic "historians of chassidism", but it would help you to learn the real history of those days and times before perpetuating such nonsense. And to insinuate that Roumanian "chassidism" was rife with corruption and crime is simply a motzie shem ra, a dirty libel on people who aren't here to answer or even spit in your face. Romania in general is a thieving land and hordes of Romanian gypsies are legendary in their methods. But to state, without any basis or even statistics to support it, that somehow Romanian hassidism was more corrupt and more vulnerable to criminal tendencies then Polish or Russian counterparts is an atrocious libel; it isn't just false but is also not even relevant to this situation and today's age.

You did a terrible service to yourself, your grandfather and your people. The only reason hosts of this blog didn't strip you of your Jewish roots is that you were careful to play good cop for a split second and pitched Rizhin against Lubavich, amongst others. Had you not done that, to the end of your days would you be an "eino mizera Yisroel".

Stevey said...

Candlelighting in NJ this week was 4:47 - shkia was 5:05. This 'rabbi' was posting after candlelighting, and I'm SURE he stopped before shkia....or did he ?

Jake said...

Nice try, Dr. Nadler. Now, if you'll be so good as to 'explain' just a little bit more...
Since, as you so eloquently admit, you do not have 'yadin yadin', how dare you weigh in on such a serious question as whether the halachos forbidding mesirah still apply in the U.S ? As a matter of fact, most contemporary poskim (Minchas Yitzchok, Mishne Halochos, & others) clearly disagree with you (in cases where the subject poses no threat to human life, i.e rodef). There is the further issue of the very real risk of severe physical violence, or even death, while in the 'care' of the Bureau of Prisons or DOJ. In fact, an academic of your standing should have no trouble uncovering recent studies putting that risk as high as 20% ! Does halacha then permit mesirah in the US ?! Says who- your yadin-yadinless psak ?! You find it 'sad' that "these insults and the incredible distortions of reality, are not directed at the real criminals in this matter: the Spinker Rebbe and his cohorts" (your words)?! That's what you find sad, you vile scum ? All you've done here, Dr. Nadler, by declaring the Spinker Rebbe and his associates to be 'real criminals' (just as you found them guilty in your initial article) is to show your true colors. According to Torah, as well as U.S law, a man is presumed innocent until proven guilty, yes, Allan, even a hassidic man, even a Rebbe ! Do you know which type of Jew doesn't enjoy these presumptions according to halacha....a moser. Methinks a professor should avoid shooting off his mouth, and certainly his filthy pen, in passing ignorant and vicious judgement against his fellow Jews. This, especially when anybody (even) remotely familiar with these types of investigations knows very well the frequent perjury by federal agents in pursuit of an indictment, not to mention the vast amounts of conjecture and hypothesis many of these cases are built on - that's why we have trials, and the initial presumption of innocence.
One more thing, Dr. Nadler. Why did you feel compelled to suddenly trot out your supposed 'hassidic yichus'? Was it because you wanted cover for your hatchet-job on the Spinker Rebbe - how many times in the past have you broadcast your supposed hassidic connection ?
And just to clear the air, you've been accused by an earlier poster here of walking around eating without a head-covering, is that true, Dr. Nadler ?

Anonymous said...

Ahh, 'mehorsayich umacharivayich mimeich yetzeiu. We can handle the French-Canadian anti-semites on our own, but what will we do with a nadler like Allan....?

Josh said...

I appreciate Nadler's justification which amounts to a castigation of traditional Jewish jurisprudence. Even if, in this country, the laws are made by a majority of landed people of all ethnicities, one could still defend the intense hatred of mesirah. The point is not to account for our current American situation, undoubtedly not the same as the situation in czarist Russia. Rather, to curtail the rationalizing force of the monopoly of violence held by the state in such a way as to exist outside of it. Nadler might not realize that in the future, Jews may live in less hospitable regimes where killing mosrim, a tradition of killing mosrim, may be advantageous. Instead he assumes the status quo as a telelogical end of history; one that Hasidim can be castigated for not waking up to. I am sorry that the Hasidim didnt get the memo, but perhaps in this case they are taking the long view, ensuring the continued survival of their system against government meddling. Despite what may be the Halachic imperatives, one could also see how it is advantageous for Jews to learn to launder money and generally survive outside of the hegemonic grid of market capitalism. These skills have proven useful more than one time in the past, and despite the continued utility of taxes in America in funding our great war of terror, they may (we hope not) prove useful in the future. How many Jews survived the war years due to their ability to launder cash, find hard currency and generally exist within the black market? While I have no statistics, and I could be wrong, the anecdotal evidence seems to stack up on my side. So Nadler has to explain, at least to me, why Jews should abandon the amoral, amorphous, reproducible, durable and transposable life of the network that sustained them for thousands of years in favor of an insatiable market hegemony. Basically, if conditions ever were to turn the other way, it would help a hell of a lot more to be a Hasid with skills in moving cocaine and ecstasy than a Modern Orthodox Jew with an accounting degree.

Pofessors in Ivory Towers said...

Professors from modern colleges and unversities should limit their comments and opinions to their audience of college and university students and fellow academics even though what they say may be accurate.

The reason that they should stick close to home and not pontificate about subjects outside of academia (aka academe) is that it will boomerang on them, especially if written in controversial anti-Orthodox newspapers such as the Forward that reach ONLY a non-university audience and some people are always prowling for fights and you will willy-nilly become their cannon-fodder like now, since it can't be imagined that ANY college student would reading the Forward under any circumatsnaces unless ordered to do so by you for course credits (oh, is that why you may have written your accusatory article? Who knows?)

Professor Nadler is owed a lot of respect for his intellectual honesty, obvious brilliance, his works of scholarship and that he is indeed a musmach of very chushuve rabbonim from Boston as he asserts such as the "bais din" of his illustreous rebbeim Rav Tennenbaum ( real Litvishe rov), Rav Twersky (Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik's son-in-law) and Rav Baron (as we are told, a Rosh Yeshiva of Merkaz Ha-Torah) all well known Gedolim and one should have derech eretz for an unusually highly accomplished talmid of theirs, such as Dr. nadler truly is!

That having been said, Professor Nadler needs to realize that he is an emperor with no clothes.

Just stop for a moment and see what his main status is, a UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR in a SECULAR university (not quite the kodesh hakodashim of a yeshiva or bais medrash, not even of a kleine heilige shtiebel) and as such he should not be hurling serious heavy stones at anyone outside of academia because academia is morally corrupt, rotten, and infested to the core!

Has Dr. Nadler forgotten that he teaches college and university students many of whom are non-Jews, and of the Jews on any university campus very few are shommer negiah, very few are sober all the time, and almost assuredly very few lead a truly wholesome honest to goodnens life compared to your average upgehietene Chasidishe or yeshiva bochur or Bais Yaakov girl anywhere.

Universities today are not what they were fifty years ago. Today they all have mixed dorms with young students having sex with each other all the time, non-Jewish and Jewish, everything goes 24/7. Gay life is rampant. Female students pose for porn magazines and websites and hire their bodies out to make some spending money. TSD are everywhere as is known. Drugs and smoking pot are common. Drinking on college is a plague, as is known. Suicides are not uncommon. It's a crisis and everybody knows it. US News, TIME, Newsweek write about these things all the time. It's no secret. None of these are chidushim, it's just der nakkider emes.

Particularly hard hit are kids from Modern Orthodox homes, whose families think YU is "too frum" and not good enough, send their kids to every farvorverner colleges and the kids are losing more than just their virginity. They are losing their innocence. They are losing their Yiddishkeit.
They are losing their humanity. They are losing their souls, theit tzelem elokim, and sometimes even their lives. Plenty of kids are falling in love with non-Jews or coming out gay. Everybody knows this is happening, it's a real Holocaust, and just as in the 1939-1945 Holocaust, there is SILENCE as most people just stand by and don't really try to stop it.

This is the real crisis that Dr. Nadler and all ehrliche Jewish academics should face up to BEFORE they come accusing Haredim, especially Hasidim WHO DO NOT ATTEND SUCH COLLEGES, and do not face these plagues, of all sorts of imperfections. This is not to say that Haredim and Hasidim don't have problems, but it is not on the scale and horror of millions of college students literally cavorting on campuses for four years or more with noone saying a peeps. Why is that exactly Dr. Nadler? Wouldn't you care if the daughter of a yid you knew was sleeping with guys on college, and it's not just one girl who is doing, it's essentially all of them. That is the horrible side of college education that noone discusses, because, well, you know, we are modern people today....

Are all the professors in the Ivory Towers where Dr. Nadler works so honest and has he made sure that they are all pure unadulterated tsadikim, before he comes with fists flying to take on the Hasidishe and Haredishe world outside?

It sure looks that the good professor has fallen victim to his pride, very understandable for such a well-read and highly-degreed person, and that he has lost just a bit of his perspective as to where heis coming from and where he should be aiming his fire: Stick to the Ivory Towers doc.

Forget about trying to straighten out or teach life to Chasidim 'cause it ain't gonna work and they gonna think that you're crazy, wicked or worse and they will curse and hurl insults at you for your getting too big for your bootstraps, 'cause you see, Hasidim don't respect college-educated people no matter how many semichas they may have.

So dear Doc, stick to fixing up academia first, it sure needs it. The Ivory Towers are polluted.

How many Jewish boys and girls on your campuses have you admonished for having pre-marital sex openly? The Ivory Towers reek.

Have you objected to the mixed dorms they are in the campuses where you have taught? The Ivory Towers are worse than Las Vegas.

Have you seen the evils of aids that befalls gays, and told your student and fellow professors about that? The Ivory Towers are aiding aids.

How about telling your students to stop doing drugs, not pimping, and not posing nude for magazines or websites, have you ever decried or written in-depth articles to deal with that plague and blight? The Ivory Towers are crumbling!

Forget writing dead-in-the-water articles about Misnagdim and the ways of Hasidim, who is ever going to read that crap? Besides you? The Ivory Towers want you to stay home.

The challenge of our age is NOT what Misnagdim do or Hasidim don't do, it's about the hundreds of thousands of kids, including the tens of thousands of Jewish day school kids who going to pot, literally and figuratively, right under your nose, when you think it's right to scream vicariously at Rebbes or whatnot, because that won't work.

In fact in this week's weekly English MODIAH pictures centerfold there were quite a few photos of the Spinka Rebbe dancing at simchas with other Rebbes holding his hands, now that should tell you something, shouldn't it.

So forget trying to take on Rebbes and going out of your depth and out of your domain, and stick instead to:

(a) Talking only to your college people. Stick to the every towers of academia.

(b) Avoid writing or talking to the Jewish media or non-Jewish media, no matter how enticing because it has zero to do with your academic work and the papers will get you screwed as you see what's happening now. The papers don't care a damn about you or your "op-ed" essays, they are only after circulation and after the blood of teire Yidden.

(c) If you feel you have to do more than your lecturing and research, which is really your only real job, then try to set up agendas to improve the moral life of students and faculty all around you.

(d) Finally, if you really want to do something for Klal Yisrael, then start working hard to be matzil the neshomas of all those precious Yiddishe kinder who are on campus but may as well be living in Sodom.

Klehr zich gut ibber teirer freint, herr doktor rabbiner!

Guravitzer said...

Dear Dr. Nadler, thank you for joining the conversation. Please remember this is a blog, where the toilet meets the heavens. Our esteemed baal hablog has to deal with much worse every day.

I believe my comment on the last post sums up my feelings: reading your article transported me instantly to the screed of the anti frum of a century ago, specifically anti chasidim, where every "historian" considered it their duty to promote every creative tale of chasidic degeneracy to promote the new world order of secular, cynical Judaism.

And that is precisely the problem with your article. You say you write for the average uninformed reader, I say to you that all the average reader walks away with is the key words "degenerate", "all out war", "debauched", "superstitious gullibility", "severe theological and intellectual decline", "criminal tendencies", etc.

The issue is the same I have with Assaf, Friedman, et al: Your personal lifestyle may be Jewish, frum, or whatever we may call it, but your worldview is distinctly not one which is based on any system of values of Torah. I would have liked to open this comment with "kvod toraso", but unfortunately the Torah is lacking. Perhaps frume historians or sociologists who find it difficult to avoid the mind bending of academic would do better to observe, say, the Jacobean Revolution? Or perhaps Larry Schifman can give you pointers on maintaining a frume viewpoint, let alone Jewish, in the world of academia?

Hirshel Tzig said...

You can count on Khaver U N to make this about me....

SatmarTC said...

Burekh Ber

Unfortunately u also has a golus mentality (goyshe kop)

The Spinker Rebbe is not a thief, he just found an avenue to support Limud HaTorah ,and took 0 for himself.
If u can make such a statement b/c some goym r qualifying this as "theft" ,u r MSR
and a Chillul Hashem

Before you speak against a Great Rabbe, before u open r mouth (i have not doubts that is full of LH,MSR, REchilus)think about yourself, how u r failing so low

Metsudah said...

I liked how Artscroll Siddurim are Nadler's Koshere Khazer Fisslach.... Now that we know they used Artscroll everything he ever does or says is A-Okay....

Mottel said...

Just keep in mind when you word your posts -whatever goes up here will most likely influence his next article.

Anonymous said...

Now Nadler is responsible for AIDS, pritsus, znus, gambling, gay sex, drug addiction....why not also blame him for global warming while we are at it ?
And, by the way, in case you hadn't heard, Nadler was the main culprit behind 9/11 and I have good edus'n that he had a hand in getting Hitler elected back in 1933; before of course, he orchestrated the Bolshevik Revolution and Castro's rise to power.

Such narishkyatn !

When the Rebbe needed some one to bail him out, I promise you he went to a college graduate, with a JD nokh-dertsee, not some koylel-laydigayer from Boro Park.

And when we get in legal trouble, or chas ve-sholem, have medical problems, we likewise seek out a college, and medical school graduate, not the guy who hands out shirayim at the Spinker tish !

Has "....Ivory Towers" ever stepped foot on a college campus ? Clearly not ! He can't write English well enough to graduate elementary school. But so arrogant and condescending to the young boys and girls who are getting a real education.

It is embarassing to read such primitive nonsense. There's the real Chilul Hashem.

x said...

Seeing what the people are writing here, I think Professor Nadler has been too kind to the Spinka leader and other Chasidim. The rot is deep.

By the way Minchas Yitzchok and Mishaneh Halochos are Hungarian Chasidic poskim. Not surprising that they share the Spinka view, considering their common background.

Anonymous said...

Anon
If he is not responsible for whatever is happening in his dalet amos, why is he besmirching tens of thousands of people of Chasidic Background?

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"In fact in this week's weekly English MODIAH pictures centerfold there were quite a few photos of the Spinka Rebbe dancing at simchas with other Rebbes holding his hands, now that should tell you something, shouldn't it."

It tells me how rotten and corupt the so called frum world is

Anonymous said...

Dr Nadler should not be attacked personally. Whether he is frum or not should not be the issue here. Why will it help the discussion whether he is shomer Shabbos or keeps Kosher?Are his facts accurate or not? That should be the main issue as a previous poster has noted.
Just for the record and only for the kovod of one of the rabbonim from whom he received semicha, it is well known in Montreal that Rabbi Leib Baron, an adom gadol from the alte Mir who today is a zakon and lives in EY, had serious regrets about having granted Nadler semicha when he found out that Nadler went off the derech.

tuvia said...

in my humble opinion there is rather little muser yidden can receive from the likes of this "rabbi"& his cohorts ,fellow bloggers that only consider an education like our "rabbi's' a "real" education! torah is not a "real"education, & the frum world is corrupt because we dont consider a person who is accused of breaking the law a criminal & the roshoim who are ready to put in jail a person who is no threat to society are moral upright people!
let's be real according to halacha
no person deserves to loses his liberty for financial shennaigens
even if convicted & any jew who sends him there is a moser!there is no posek that disagrees with this!
if you want to no more about our upright "rabbi"just do a goggle search & you will where the"rabbi" is coming from

Anonymous said...

Reb Hirshel,

I am intrigued that Nadler says he is a Tolna Ainikel - I think he is mistaking a Tolna Chasid for an Tolna Ainikel.

SatmatTC said...

IF DR Nadler is proud of his Rabonus, and now he does not keep Shabbos, According to many opinions he qualifies as a "koifer"
I don't think that he is a koifer cv, but he is a tinok shenishbo, an this is why his daas functions in this way

I am sorry ,if one of you guys annymous, etc, share his daas,which is a goyshe vision of things, and this is the way that ppl start thinking when they r going off the derech
It is not too late, do teshuvah

A yid fin Montreal said...

I met Nadler this summer, when he was living in Outremont. He liked to hang around with the Hasidim, at the bakeries and the kosher stores, and talk in Yiddish with them and hear about Chasides and Rebbes; I bumped into him on shabbes a few times in St. Viateur park; he was always dressed shabesdik, was very nice and friendly and he seemed to be very haymish and very comfortable among us; respectful and decent guy; He davened quite a few times at Satmar; he was saying kaddish after his father, I think. His father, Yosel, even though he was modern Orthodox mizrachist, loy ulaynee, who still was a big and extremely well known baal-tsedoke and klal-tee'er in Montreal and he always helped out especially the hasidishe community with all kinds of problems, because he was a big macher on the Outrement City Hall council; My zaideh told me that Nadler's father helped out many survivors when they came to Montreal, be'ilem'shem, getting them dirres and jobs, ve-chulay.
I remember being surprised when Nadler said in Kaddish "viyekurev Keytz meshichay"...at Satmar !
I guess that comes from his Tolner zaideh ?

It was mefursam in Montreal Rav Baron, Shlita, considered Aron Nadler to be his talmid-muvhak for many years. He was very proud that his talmid became the rov of the biggest and most prestigeous shil in Canada. But this was a very long time ago. It is also well known that when Nadler left the Shaar Shimayim to work for the secular yiddishisten at YIVO, that Rav Baron -- who is a groyser talmid chochem from dem Alten Mir and mechaber of about ten sforim of chidishim on shas -- was very upset with him. Still, I never heard that he had "regrets" about giving him smicha...This sounds like one of those mayses that take on a life without any facts.

The emmes is that even that his article lacks koved for Rebbes, he did us a favor by forcing us to wake up to the problems in our mist and to be mekayem, "u-viartu horu mi-kirbechu".....
"a gast af a vayl zeyt af a mile!"

Anonymous said...

I think all are almost all the pro nadler comments are nadler himself writing under different names if you look at the times and the tone it's kimat zicher him.

Nadler said...

I eat eyver min ha-chay without a yarmulka on yom kipper.

The Grobbe Behaime said...

What is the real current Halachik opinion on mesira? Can you really go and kill him? Lubavitch is having their own moiser problems lately. It seems the whole Jewish world is. It seems like all America has done for frumme yidden is make them less frum and more American. It would be intresting to ask some of our modern orthodox brothers when given the choice of american law ot Torah which one they believe in more. I too believe that Chassidim shouldn't do shpilkes with gelt but there also shouldn't be any moisrim running around and especially that the bastard wasn't a big beleiver in the american system. He was saving his tochus. Maybe Nadler thinks he should also sit for his "crimes against the great America" gradde from what I remember he was a shtikel educated the moiser. So who should have not got mixed in the "ignorant" rebbe or the enlightened guy who used the cash for personal purposes not for a moisad. the point is clear Nadler look who your hero is!!! a ganev who decided to save his tochus by giving in another ganev. even goyishe criminals don't like snitches.

Professors in Ivory Towers said...

In reply to the "anonymous" who responded to the first "professors in ivory towers" post:

anonymous said: "Now Nadler is responsible for AIDS, pritsus, znus, gambling, gay sex, drug addiction....why not also blame him for global warming while we are at it?"

Reply: Ummm, where did you see such a claim? At no point anywhere was Dr. Nadler blamed for any of these things. What he WAS being advised was that his efforts and koiches would be better spent and utilized if he focused on the MORAL problems on campuses all over the USA and tried to fix those. To repeat, Dr. Nadler was being taken very seriously, but it was being pointed out that he was making a MISTAKE by writing articles for newspapers critical of Hasidim and Rebbes when he should rather focus inwards and try to fix the problems in his own back yard. So be fair and be accurate, I didn't say he created them or that he was responsible for them. Just that he should be spending his free time fixing the social and moral problems closer to home in academia and not venturing into areas that he should leave for others who are in that world and have some possible CREDIBILITY to do something about it!

anonymous said: "And, by the way, in case you hadn't heard, Nadler was the main culprit behind 9/11 and I have good edus'n that he had a hand in getting Hitler elected back in 1933; before of course, he orchestrated the Bolshevik Revolution and Castro's rise to power. Such narishkyatn !"

Reply: The only one talking "narishkyatin" is you because noone said any of this! You just keep on running with your fantasies. At no point did I blame Dr. Nadler for any of the KNOWN ills that plague college life, and they are NOT "narishkeiten" they are known problems that any person reading such simple weekly magazine as US News and World Report, TIME, and NEWSWEEK, can find frequent articles about the social problems that college students face. Just a few weeks ago US News had an article about the importance of parents taking their college-age kids for doctor's check-ups during college breaks and not to assume that all was ok, since many college kids are heavy drinkers, the majority indulge in sex often and many with multiple partners and therefore many have been found to have sexually transnitted diseases (STD), depression is common from study pressures and wild relationships, and checking for drug abuse since many smoke pot and take drugs. This is all true and NOWHERE was it claimed that Professor Nadler was responsible for any of it. What was said, is that because there are such known and documented problems in this academic world he lives in, he should move out of his ivory towers complex and try to put his focus on SOLVING the serious problems all around him FIRST and FOREMOST and not on wasting his time with writing bubba-meises about Hasidim that help neither him nor the Hasidim. So to talk about his causing all the other "historical events" here is just a red herring and smokescreen to avoid discussing the real issues that surround Dr. Nadler at Drew University and that he is conveniently overlooking as he lobbs insults at his fellow Jews. He is not responsible for anything in history, he is only responsible for his words and articles that he is writing and spreading with the help of the media.

anonymous said: "When the Rebbe needed some one to bail him out, I promise you he went to a college graduate, with a JD nokh-dertsee, not some koylel-laydigayer from Boro Park."

Reply: So what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? According to you the list could go on something like this: When a Rebbe needs to take a cab he uses a cab-driver with a goyishe driver's license, when the Rebbe needs underwear he puts on Fruit-of-the-Loom from a store run by communist Chinese businessmen, when the Rebbe needs a peach he eats one plucked by an illegal Mexican worker in California, when the Rebbe or anyone needs anyone or anything they get it from where-ever they need it, ...that much is self-evident and obvious and needs no reply really. You see you are fooling around and not being serious because the value of a university education was NOT being questioned or attacked! Just that the MORAL and SOCIAL climate on campus, what students do in their FREE time is a huge mess, but by all means noone said that becoming or being a doctor of medicine or a lawyer is a bad thing. That Hasidim in general have a policy on no secular education and certainly no attendance of college is a decision that they have made, just like they insist that all their male members wear a Chasidishe levush and that a Chusid should be loyal to and follow the Rebbe their family belongs to or that they choose. That is their choice. Just like Modern Orthodox Jews choose not to be like this and emphasize secular education and going to college to become a professional. While Chasidim learn Toirah, Talmud and Chasidus intensely and they mostly go into wholesale, retail, manufacturing, real estate, investing, sales, import and export to make a living AND THEY DO VERY WELL THANK YOU VERY MUCH !!!, the Modern Orthodox, with a few from the Yeshiva world who go to college, like those who attend Touro, become doctors, lawyers, acountants, teachers, all types of therapists, MBAs --- so noone is knocking any of this. The Hasidim do their thing (hishtadlus for parnossah) their way, the Modern Orthodox do their things their way, and the Yeshiva oilem is varied in the USA with some going to college and some not. But noone was knocking the value of a degree or the chashivus of a lawyer and there was no need to put down "some koylel-laydigayer from Boro Park" because Boro Park is a bastion of Hasidic and Haredi life with the largest concentration of Haredi Jews in America, lots of beautiful heilge teire Yidden and being in Kollel is a great thing as it leads to more Talmidei Chachomim and more ribbui Toirah, something which cannot be done on a college campus. But this is not and never was an attempt to meausre up the pros and cons of Modern Orthodoxy or secular life versus Hasidim, Rebbes and Haredim. The critique of Dr. Nadler was that he was ignoring the serious problems he has on his own home front and is choosing to set himself up as a PUBLIC judge and executioner of Rebbes, Hasidim and Haredim. If he does that for a living at his university then that is his choice and his domain, but when he sticks his head outside of the ivory towers he lives in and then tries to go beyond his world and via The Forward or any other anti-Orthodox media launches into PUBLIC statements OUTSIDE of academia he has over-stepped his bounds and rightly must face all sorts of criticism and SCRUTINY from his co-religionists who share neither his academic sensibilities nor his unique education and outlook.

anonymous said: "And when we get in legal trouble, or chas ve-sholem, have medical problems, we likewise seek out a college, and medical school graduate, not

Reply: Those words are truly libelous and silly. No one was attacking doctors and lawyers! Of course they are needed, necessary and welcome, even if they be non-Jews, one must and will use them. There is no question that according to Halacha and according to common sense one must use the BEST doctors or professionals even if they were trained and certified by the most non-Jewish institutions provided they have a chazaka of curing, helping and succeeding for their clients, patietnst, supplicants, or whatever the case may be. But why attack what goes on at a Rebbe's tish with hateful and angry words about "... the guy who hands out shirayim at the Spinker tish!"? What is wrong with handing out or taking shirayim if that is part of core Hasidic lore, like the shemona begudim for men and the tzibbel mit eier on Shabbes? Again it is a pathetic silly smokescreen that avoids answering the question of why Dr. Nadler feels he has the right to attack Rebbes, Hasidim and Hasidus in journalistic print, which then gets posted online too, when he is an emperor who has no clothes. I think it's called "a held in gatges" in Yiddish. There are so many lost Jewish souls near him in university who are drowning morally and spiritually (it's not about getting degrees and becoming doctors and lawyers and whatnot, that's not the issue) and he should be talking out and doing something about that problem. Bnei ircha kodmin is the din and the bnei ircha for Dr. Nadler are people closer at home to the collges he works in and he should be giving them mussar first and if he can prove that he has truly gotten his academic house in order he should think about venturing out of the Ivory Towers of academia and throwing mud-balls at the Jews of Boro Park.

anonymous asks: "has "....Ivory Towers" ever stepped foot on a college campus?"

Reply: Yes, many, many, times, and has studied, taught and worked there. How else would he even know about "Ivory Towers"? Duh!

anonymous says: "Clearly not!"

Reply: Oh, so now you are speaking for me too! Terrific! This is what is known as chutzpah.

anonymous says: "He can't write English well enough to graduate elementary school."

Reply: I can't write English? Funny what language have I been using I was sure it was English. The only errors you will see are a few typos because I must admit I missed the typing course and I type kinda type slow. When I use words like "kinda" or "gonna" it's to lighten things up. If that isn't obvious then you are being facetious. Believe me, I am way past elementary school and I have enough degrees to choke a horse. But this is not a competition about whose pisher is longer. This debate is about what Dr. Nadler had said by publishibg an article in the anti-Orthodx media and the consequences of such action. Nothing more and nothing less. By publishing articles in papers like the Forward Dr. Nadler has brought greater scrutiny to be placed on him, as he should have expected. We are not frightened little students hoping to get credits from him in our next semester. This is the ultimate of free speech at work. And the criticism's from my point of view have been pretty simple and straightforward, and that is precisely because I am very much aware and know about the problems and accute challenges that face Jewish youth on campuses everywhere that what Jewish academics say is noteworthy because quite they are, sadly, the last ones who work or speak out about the decadance and moral turpitude of students and faculty and then it becomes the job of some lone Chabad campus rabbi or a a kiruv activist to come along and see if they can mekarev the students to Yiddishkeit and remedy what is really nothing less than a moral and spiritual Holocaust of Jews on campus with no help from the ones in the Ivory Towers.

anonymous complains: "...But so arrogant and condescending to the young boys and girls who are getting a real education."

Reply: Huh? To point out the tzores of the Eibishter's children on campus is to be "arrogant and condescending to the young boys and girls"??? Any Yid who cares about his or her brethren is pained beyond words about what is happening to our precious young brothers and sisters on campus! Noone is attacking the official
"real" education they get. It's what they do when they are NOT getting that "real" education. Are you alseep, in denial, or ignorant??? When not getting a "real" education they are drinking themsleves sick like drunks! Getting knocked up like whores! Smoking pot like chimney stacks! Many are as depressed and emotially ill as the sickest pop-tarts, and some even jump off roofs, overdose, or get fatal STDs like AIDS. That is just a sad story, and I am sorry you can't face up to that. So sure, let them or anyone get a "real" education, but not at the expense of losing their Yiddishe neshamas for nothing by vecoming "Jews for Nothing"!

anonymous complains: "It is embarassing to read such primitive nonsense. There's the real Chilul Hashem."

Reply: Shucks you can't win em' all! It's a Chilul Hashem to tell Dr. Nadler that he should try fixing the probelms all around him on campus before he comes out swinging at frumme Yidden that he has no real connection to in his "real" life? It's a Chilul Hashem to speak the truth about the gehinom that exists on univeristy campuses when students are not in class? Is it right to knock Hasidim and Rebbes in Boro Park and when you get called on that cry fowl and claim it's all a "Chilul Hashem"? What kind of atrocious avoidance and audacity is that?

Get out of your Ivory Tower Rabbi. Professor Nadler and do something to save all the Yidden on campus TO BRING THEM BACK TO TORAH AND TO AVIHEM SHEBASHAMAYIM, and when you have done that job, you will be called a tzadik gamur and you will have the right to say something about Rebbes, Hasidim and Haredim and to be respected rather than reviled.

Nadler's cousin said...

I wonder why all of a suuden so many people in Montreal read your blog tzig. Not bad for a day's work.

seichel said...

"While Chasidim learn Toirah, Talmud and Chasidus intensely and they mostly go into wholesale, retail, manufacturing, real estate, investing, sales, import and export to make a living AND THEY DO VERY WELL THANK YOU VERY MUCH !!!"

Yeah, that's why the Spinka had to do what he allegedly did, because he had followers who were doing very well.

chnyock said...

if u google david assaf you will get nadlers review of assafs book published by the forward on aug 25 '06 where he clearly shows his disdain for chasidim

Hershy said...

Ivory Tower
I wish you wouldn't post long rambling comments that have zero substance.

I'm a long time resident of Boro Park and have to say that since the chassidim have become a large majority of BP ,quality of life has gone down immensely.
Now, please realize that there are many wonderful people amongst them, but again, it's a mass movement, very populist that attracts very uncultured riff raff.
Amongst the new hasidic introductions are their 'turf wars'.
They have to be called on their behavior, they have to be called on their seeming disrespect for the 'Malchus shel chesed'(and they also have to take better care of personal hygiene for the men folk)
I think Nadler shines some sunlight onto them.
Nuff said, can't get into 'perotim' without feuling the 'sonim'

AMSHINOVER said...

Rabbi Nadler-
perhaps you never read
Halakhic Man: Not a "Mithnagged" (by Allan Nadler a cousin?)
because that is a anti-chassid book if one was ever written.

Akiva said...

I'm a proud anti-chossid!
Why is it that the Tzig&co are allowed to write stories criticising Spink, although the Tzig himself attended the yeshiva and 'considerd' himself a chosid of the Spinker.The Tzig also criticizes Satmar(I guess with the caveat that they 'are not real chasidim')
And, bichlal why are other Jews 'fair game' for the Tzig and fellow chevra like Amshi,Berl etc??
We all know that the real fights are between chasidim themselves, so I find it so dishonest when they bash others for being 'haters'
I for example despise the chasidic movement but have never raised a violent hand on them ANY of them while all you 'great lovers' have espoused as much for fellow chasidim of the 'wrong group'.
*Two points for the record:My dislike fir the movement is not anything of a personal nature against any Jew ,AND I equally despise the chasidisation, for lack of a better word, of some of the Litvishe world! I mean, the chasidim at long last have learned from us to start learning with a bent towards actually understanding in depth, they have even started to look up to talmidei chachomim and even backed up the opening of a new chassidus in Boro Park, backed by the fact that that rebbe is actually a talmid chochom!So why do we need to learn from their drawbacks??

Anonymous said...

Amshinover,
The article "Soloveitchik's Halakhic Man: Not A Mitnaged" was written by the very same Allan Nadler. The PDF of the whole artilce is on Nadler's webpage. In this article, Nadler actually tries to prove that many of Rav Soloveitchik's hashkofas is actually much closer to chasidus than it is to misnagdus.
So what are you talking about ? That article is more pro-chasidish than anti. And the Rov's book, Ish hahalakha, if Nadler is right, is not at all an anti-Chasidic book.
I cannot detect any bias AT ALL in this article, or in Nadler's academic book on the misnagdim, against chasidus.

yitz said...

Why is ok to hate Misnagdim??
Is it for the same reason people always tiptoe around some ethnic groups, trying to be nice to them or be vilified?
Do we have to pad our views about chasidim and some of their ways, so we won't be accused of a bias against the lower classes of Judaism?

Mottel said...

Perhaps that was Amshinover's point . . .

snag said...

Welcome fellow snags !

Is today snag coming out day ???

Anonymous said...

well i just finished reading nadler's weird article on slonimer chassidus & baranovitch etc... (it's written in modern hebrew, so it was slow going for me); he may not like, even maybe despise, the rumaynishe chassidim, but he sure seems to like the slonimers a lot...maybe he's a really a slonimer disguised as a so-called "Talner aynikle"

Milhouse said...

"the grobbe behaime" said: It would be intresting to ask some of our modern orthodox brothers when given the choice of american law ot Torah which one they believe in more.

Ot do ligt der hunt bagrobn.

Anonymous said...

I still couldn't get the article

Anonymous said...

I'm newbie and a new user in this forum, but I hope to help and be helped by others. :)