Sunday, November 2, 2014

The great עטיפת טלית debate raging now in Lubavitch

There's a great debate raging in Lubavitch these days, and Boruch Hashem, it's not about shidduchim, tuition costs, Meshichism, or shluchim fighting! Truth be told neither Reb Berel Levin nor Reb Eli Landa refers to the other person's manner of atifah as "wrong" or incorrect, so the debate may be the creation of this blog... But controversy is what drives this business, and there ultimately is a debate, even if they don't argue with each other. For good measure, after seeing a "related" video on You Tube, we bring you Rabbi Nissan Dovid Dubov's version, which is basically the same as RSBL. I tried to embed the code from the Levin shiur here as well, but it just wouldn't show. So all we have is a link. You can sense that REL will have a different take on atifah just based on the beginning, where he rolls out the Chabad מיוחד - רש"ב tallis, that the Rebbe wore during Tishrei only. Levin and Dubov use the more standard tallis, and hence the more standard סדר העטיפה. Landa's atifah is difficult to do, but the end result is EXACTLY what an Ishmaeli in the desert would look like. What they all have in common is that atifas haTallis in Chabad is not as easy as in the rest of the Jewish world. The אלטער רבי, בעל התניא והשלחן ערוך, was very specific about atifas haTallis, just as he was with all other aspects of Jewish law and observance. You also learn something from RSBL about keeping the head covered with the tallis at all times; that the only way to be מקיים atifah is by having the head covered. Otherwise it's just a large tallis koton that you're wearing.



Rabbi Shlom Ber Levin's shiur on atifas haTallis (Yiddish)

15 comments:

Tzemach said...

In Jewish history the Talis was always used as an issue to cover up
hidden real agendas,
The real agenda is, today in Chabad educational entities, how many boys NOT Jewish by Halacha are trained to put on tzituis and non Jewish girls are trained to be Jewish and when they grow up one of their problems will be how to do a chabad atifa
I wonder why you don't discuss this difference from chabad and the rest of the frum world

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

wow, look who's back!

Anonymous said...

is this the tzemach from mentalblog

Dovid said...

I've never seen an atifa like R' Landa's, but it's majestic and I'll have to try it out (maybe tomorrow morning?). Similarly, I don't think I've ever seen anyone make the bracha as he does it.

I was trained to do it as R' Dubov demonstrates.

yomtovindervochen said...

TZEMACH,
You've been sorely missed!
I have nostalgic feeling for the mentalblog days, with shneour and the acerbic and (sometimes quite nasty)berel ch

guravitzer said...

Landa manages a double whammy, grunem and ashkavta d'rebi as sources. No thanks. None of them manage to mention that the rebbe additionally left one shoulder covered by white of tallis and the other with stripes, speculation says to cover both frierdike rebbe and his father.

Reb Hersh said...

I have seen R' Landa's atifa a number of times.....by the older generation of anash and some mashpi'im.

yomtovindervochen said...

Hit the big news site.
http://crownheights.info/something-jewish/457763/great-talis-debate-rages-in-lubavitch/

Fritzi said...

i have seen some gerer's here in IL putting the tallis over the head like him during the bruche.

RCA said...

Tzemach
Tzemach said...
In Jewish history the Talis was always used as an issue to cover up
hidden real agendas,
The real agenda is, today in Chabad educational entities, how many boys NOT Jewish by Halacha are trained to put on tzituis and non Jewish girls are trained to be Jewish and when they grow up one of their problems will be how to do a chabad atifa
I wonder why you don't discuss this difference from chabad and the rest of the frum world"
As you know shluchim are not doing Gierus, all is done thru Rabbi Barry Frendel or Rav Lebel Troper

Darkie Hachasidim said...

If I am not mistaking,
the Munkacher has some words in his Nimukie OC regarding the Chabad atifa,

strips? said...

my father told me that in the early years the rebbe would put on his tallis in such a manner that the black strips would not show, to be similar to his fathers tallis which was all white (al pi kabalah), and eventually (dont know what year) the rebbe changed it to show the black strips like the frierdike rebbe

strizov said...

I i'm not mistaken the Munkacser writes that comment re his Rebbe the Shinover that went to EY to see the atifah of the yishmaelim.
The Munkacser himself in Nimukei OC paskens that the atifah must be done without covering the eyes in accordance with atifas yishmaelim that dont cover their eyes (if they would cover their eyes they would be unable to see where they are going and could fall into pits etc.).

pitputim.me said...

Many years ago, when I was married, I learned the sugya in depth. I decided that there were three salient features

a) You had to make the brocho over l'asiyoson which is why Achronim say to start the brocho as you commence the action
b) It was clear that Yishmaelim had to see, and Poskim considered it wrong that you shouldn't be able to see when you make the brocho and it should hang low but not too low
c) there was a machlockes as to whether onshore wrap to one side as in these videos, or wrap left to write. I decided to do both, so I first wrap like the Mishna Brura and then throw one over the shoulder after a brief wait

It's important to remember that the Beged should get to your waste line when you are doing all this. Small Taleisim or people who scrunch it up often don't have their backs covered.

Indeed, this was long long ago. At one of our Sheva Brachos, nobody had prepared, and they asked me to speak, and I had just learned it all, so I spoke about it for about 40 minutes. I'm sure everyone was asleep at the end :-)

Tallis Admirer said...

R'Landa's method is basically an advertisement for the reintroduction of the Rashab tallis.

Having tried it, I can point out that R'Landa's demonstration only works with a Rashab tallis, i.e. one that is extraordinarily wide.

A regular-sized tallis will not fit around
from the right side;
all the way around to the right of a person's back;
with the tzitzis still on the left side;
with enough to cover the "chazeh".