Thursday, March 13, 2008

Belz and Chaim Berlin


Chaim Berlin Tragedy Commenting on Circus Tent: My, How You've Grown!

"Baalbatish" goes in all sorts of directions, and says "Interesting how Chaim Berlin/Fruchthandler pop up in the Belzer story." This is no accident, because "Chaim Berlin/Fruchthandler" put down a lot of money to buy karka in the same spot in Yerushalayim where the Belzer Rebbe had his eye to build his mega-shtiebel.

The Chaim Berlin/Fruchthandler people had put down a lot of money already by the time the Belzer Rebbe sprung his trap on them, and many tens of thousands of dollars went down the tubes twenty years ago in the belief that they were all set to build their Yeshiva Pachad Yitzchok in that prime location. They soon found out that the Belzer Rebbe had, by hook and by crook, somehow gotten people in the Jerusalem municipality to give him a permit to build his place there too, leaving the Chaim Berlin people steaming mad, and causing Abe Fruchthandler a hefsed merubeh even by his standards. Of course the shame there was being outplayed by the Belzer Rebbe in a real estate deal, which is what Fruchthandlers do for a living.

The end result was that Rav Yitzchok Hutner's son-in-law, Rav Yonason David declared that "GANTS BELZ IZ TREIF" !!! Rav David and Fruchthandler were forced to go look somewhere else to build the Yeshiva Pachad Yitzchok in Yerushalayim, and they finally settled on Har-Nof as the place. They had to pay, and start building from scratch. Of course the Belzer Rebbe lost no sleep over this, because his empire was bigger than Yeshiva Chaim Berlin's, but they have not forgiven him ad hayom hazeh. Abe Fruchthandler's verdict on the Belzers after the Belzer Rebbe and his henchmen stole the plot in Yerushalayim where Yeshiva Chaim Berlin wanted to build Yeshiva Pachad Yitzchok for which Fruchthandler had already paid tens of thousands with his own money, but where the Belzers then built their 'bais hamikdosh' instead: Belzers are GANGSTERS! (Fruchty's own words, bli guzma'os...anyone is free to check this with him and see his reaction when you mention that parsha or the name "Belz" it will not be a happy moment, guaranteed!)

31 comments:

tragedy please tell me said...

again; pls. explain me how shimmy beigeleisen zl was both belz and chaim berlin? there are also others who are both.

pls exlain;

Yechiel said...

The Belzer Rebbe is definitely the most likley person in this dor to be Moshiach. I don't see why we should write such kefirah--kaviyochol that the Rebbe made a mistake!!! Rachmono Litzlan!!! HOW CAN WRITE THIS WAY ABOUT THE MELECH?

Anonymous said...

When the Belzer Rebbe escaped from Europe and arrived in Eretz Yisroel, he specifically chose to settle in Tel-Aviv and build his yeshiva there. When did things shift to Yerushalayim?

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To "tragedy please tell me" who asks "again; pls. explain me how shimmy beigeleisen zl was both belz and chaim berlin? there are also others who are both. pls exlain;"

The answer is not that complicated because Yeshiva Chaim Berlin is one of the oldest yeshivas in America. Rav Yitzchok Hutner zt"l started the Chaim Berlin bais medrash in 1940 and the Kollel Gur Aryeh, one of the first real kollelim in Americam in the mid 1950s, so that Rav Hutner had already been running a big yeshiva in America long before the Belzer Rebbe was even born in 1947.

By the time the Belzer Rebbe was a teenager in the 1960s and had not built anything, Rav Hutner Hutner was already a known Godol on the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah in America, and by the early 1970s he (Rav Hutner) had already tried to build a new yeshiva together with Rav Dov Schwartzman in Yerushalayim known as "Bais HaTalmud" but they had a falling out over accepting Rav Yonosan David as Rosh Yeshiva and after a din Torah, Rav Shwartzman got the building and Rav Hutner got a financial settlement.

Rav Hutner was determined to rebuild again in Yerushalayim, and he did so, starting small and calling his new yeshiva "Pachad Yitzchok" as he had called his seforim on Hilchos Dei'os and Chovos Halvavos, he was alraedy known as the "Ba'al Pachad Yitzchok".

Then Rav Hutner passed away in 1980 and his son-in-law Rav Yonoson David continued heading the yeshiva Pachad Yitzchok, and with the help of money-man Avrohom Fruchthandler, they put down a huge deposit and even got permits to build a big new building in the exact same spot where the Belzer Rebbe was plotting to build a giant new shull.

There was a tug of war between Belz and Chaim Berlin and Fruchthandler and Rav Yonosan David los to the Belzer Rebbe, keyaduah.

They then went and built the Yeshivas Pachad Yitzchok in Har Nof, quite a beautiful bulding too, but not in the heart of Yerushalayim as they had originally wanted and planned and in a spot that was seen by Rav Hutner before he died, where they hoped to have it lechatchila but unfortunately for them the Belzers chapped it from them never paying back the hefsed merubeh they caused Fruchthandler either. A rich man does not like losing his hard-earned money in a robbery!

Now to get back to your question, it should be obvious that in America, Rav Hutner had many talmidim come learn by him and in the Yeshiva Chaim Berlin and in the Kollel Gur Aryeh from all over. There were people who went on to be in Bobov, Satmar, Lubavitch (Rabbi Yitzchok Groner in Australia was a talmid in Chaim Berlin), and others, like the Biegeleisens and Moish Gold in Belz, and even Rebbes, like the present Novominsker Rebbe who is a talmid muvhak of Rav Hutner, keyaduah.

The Biegelseisen family, at least two brothers who run a seforim business, one the father of Shimmy a"h and the other the father of Heshy (there are more siblings) who has owned a seriies of electronics stores, were both talmidim in Yeshiva Chaim Berlin before there was any real Belz to speak of after the Holocaust.

In fact they were middle-men between the new Belzer Rebbe and Rav Hutner and they took Rav Hutner's seforim to the Belzer and Rav Hutner held that the younger Belzer was a pikeiach and illui. That is why the Chaim Berlin anash felt doubly betrayed by the Belzer Rebbe when he pulled his geneivishe shtik on them because Rav Hutner had said nice things about him and helped to build him up.

Anyhow, Shimmy, like yibadel lechaim Tully Gold now, was very modern, went to college and was not a "chusid" while the families had old-time connection with Belz from the "alte heim" in America ther was no Belz until the last 20 years, so they were also products of the old-time Chaim Berlin mesivta and took advantage of the allowance that Chaim Berlin has to let guys go to college. Shimmy spoke English to his kids, started out in computers then went into finance. He never grew a beard. So don't make it sound like Shimmy was a "chusid mit a boord und pai'os" because he wasn't. He was a cool clean-shaven dude who worked for a financial company in Wall Street and had strong personal and family ties to Belz and went to see the Belzer Rebbe for brochas in the same level of hiskashrus that he had with Rav Aron Schechter (RAS) till his last days.

In fact there was a shemuah (not confirmed) that when he was trapped in the 2nd tower on 9/11 he called up Rav Aron Schechter (RAS) and asked a shaila if it's mutar to jump and he was told no, and that RAS said viddui with him. RAS later denied the story, and they say that Shimmy spoke to other people instead, but it has strong symbolic significance because it does show the truth that he was as much a RAS chosid as he was a chusid of the Belzer Ruv. By the way, Shimmy's kids were talmidim in Yeshiva Chaim Berlin and he did not send them to Belz in Brooklyn, so that should also tell you that he was not a "pure" Belzer but also a Chaim Berliner, just a modern Flatbush or Boro Park ba'albos with strong kesharim to his family's original Rebbe or Chasidus, there are tens of thousands of people like this.

By the way, Shimmy played a double game, with the Chaim Berliners who didn't want to create a stink about the machlokes with Belz in America where Chaim Berlin was fighting other "succession battles" such as the blow-up Rav Hutner and RAS were having getting rid of the yeshiva's mashgiach ruchani Rav Shlomo Carlebach in the late 1970s a battle which went on into the 1980s and has still need been broaught to full closuer. It's mainly RAS who has kept the Chaim Berlin machlokes with Belz suppressed because he has big backers, such as the late real estatte magnate Jack Gold a"h and his sons Tully who has kids in Chaim Berlin and Moish who put on more of a levush but is still a close buddy of Avrohom Fruchthandler from the old days and they need each other in real estate business.

It is more Rav Yonoson David who has had to carry the brunt of the busha and bezyones that the Belzer Rebbe subjected him to by his acts of trickery, deception and thievery in stealing the land for which Yeshiva Pachad Yitzchok was booked but which instead became site for the physical symbol of the resurgence and power of Belz and the ability of the Belzer Rebbe to get involed in high stakes gambles and win, as he plays "Robin Hood" to his proteges.

tragedy is no tragedy said...

tragedy thank you- you are great- where can i reach you in person? i need some info on something.

snag10 said...

Chaim Berlin are a bunch of crooks themselvs.
Good going Belzer Rebbe!

You rock!

Chaim Berlin still need to show up at Rav Moshe Feinstein's Bais Din...

PULEEEEEEZE!

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To "tragedy is no tragedy" (whatever that is supposed to mean) if you need to confirm anything or any real info on the subject about what happened contact the Belzer Rebbe or Rav Yonason David in Yerushalayim or Rav Aron Shechter and Avrohom Fruchthandler and Moish Gold in Brooklyn.

P.S. What does "you are great" mean? This is all about a tragedy, there is nothing to feel good about, rest assured.

There is absolutely nothing "great" in this tragic story.

Does the Belzer Rebbe feel "great" that he stole Fruchthandler's money? Is he "great" that he could do such a thing with the help of his followers?

Does Fruchthandler feel "great" that he lost his money? Or that he was cheated out of land in a crooked way?

Does Rav Yonason David feel "great" that he couldn't get his Pachad Yitzchok yeshiva built where he wanted it to be and not in far away Har Nof, away from the center of Yerushalayim? And that Rav Yitzchok Hutner's choice of this original spot for his designated mokom Torah in Yerushalayim had to make way for the young upstart Belzer Rebbe's grandiose building schemes?

Does Rav Aron Shechter feel "great" that he got caught in the middle and being torn between having to defend the honor of his own Rebbe, Rav Hutner zt"l and his co-rosh yeshiva Rav Yonosan David and at the same time trying to be in the good graces of old-time Chaim Berliners who also had ties with reborn Belz?

Did Shimmy Bigeleisen a"h feel "great" that his Roshei Yeshiva and fellow-ballebatim in Chaim Berlin were humiliated and robbed by his Belzer chasidishe friends in Yerushalayim?

Do people like Tully and Moish Gold with connections to Chaim Berlin and at the same time also to Belz feel "great" that they were embarrassed and made to look like stooges when the great Belzer Rebbe they were jumping up and down for also turned out to be a manipalating and conniving ganev of the Fruchhandler's riches by taking away land they had righfully paid for?

Sorry, looks like too many people here are just NOT looking all that "great" and certainly it is no "great" thing to have to discuss this matter.

But it is the TRUTH, even if it stinks it must be faced when some people actually think and say openly that the Belzer Rebbe is "Moshiach" yet! and since these are all great Rebbes and Rosh Yeshivas and Ba'aleBatim involved it is surely a case of:

Torah hi velilmod anu tzerichin!

So direct your questions and curiosity to the sources of these issues and problems that are still so troubling and tragic!

Isaac Balbin said...

Yechiel, I mean no disrespect, but I'd appreciate you pointing the siman in shulchan aruch or ikrim of the rambam or ... which would indicate that fallibility in a Manhig is Kefirah. Didn't we read of the fallibility of Shaul Hamelech just last Shabbos!

baalbatish said...

I don't understand, if the Fruchthandlers bought the realestate, how could Belz "steal" away the land? If they were just in negotiations and Belz offered more, that's not stealing.

An Ailemesher said...

Chaim Berlin Tragedy,

Do you get paid by the word?

shia said...

these chaim berlin guys are funny

no way in the world anyone can steal land if it belongs to fruchlander, land cant be stolen

and if fruchthendler wants to buy land and the belzer rebbe gives a bigger bid, it sure might hurt for fruchthendler but to call someone ganev for that you need to be a real chaim berliner and think the whole world belongs to you

SatMarTC said...

Keep in mind the Belzers(many) think that their Rebbe is Moshiach
They knew that the place of his "Beis Hamikdosh" was already designated min HaShamaim for them



maybe Yaakov stoled Eisav's Brocho

Anonymous said...

Isaac
from the haftorah you see that the opposite is true, how grave a mistake a melech can do.

motti said...

i wanted to buy the house across the street

someone else came and paid the price and i didnt

what a ganif this guy is!!!

didnt you know i want to buy it

some chaim berliners sure feel that way

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To Motti and the other sillys: You are not funny. It is a proven fact that Abe Fruchandler had already put down a lot of money and that Chaim Berlin already owned a big part of the property when out of the blue they were ambushed by the Belzer Rebbe and his cohorts who were able to GRAB in a SWINDLE the land signed over to them instead and in the process Chaim Berlin lost a huge amount of money (at least in the high tens of thousands of dollars and enough for Abe Fruchthandler himself to call it a "hefsed merubeh") so quit talking your nurishkeiten.

No getting away from the fact that in the process of getting land for his own mega-Belzer shull, in the process a legal sale to Chaim Berlin already in the works was sunk by underhanded shtik from Belz.

This was not a "bidding war" or about who gave a legitimate higher offer because the Chaim Berliners had already won the bidding war for agood part of the land and they already had the property deed in hand, when Belz came up with illegal ways that caused Chaim Berlin to lose its money and its legal claims to the land were ignored.

By the way, Chaim Berlin did not want all the land that Belz landed up using, it was a fight of a prime piece in the middle, and allegedly the Belzers started buying up some surrounding land and from that point went on to gobble up, by all sorts of underhanded dealings, the land that was already bought by the Chaim Berliners.

This was a war of "creeping annexation" by the sneakier Jerusalem based Belzers that caught the less oriented New York based Chaim Berliners unawares, by the time they realized what Belz was up to, the whole deal for Chaim Berlin was messed up by the Belzers.

So please get real. This was a crime that has still not been resolved, unless Belz has repaid Fruchnadler the huge amount of money he had already invested and then lost.

And to "Snag10" who says "Chaim Berlin still need to show up at Rav Moshe Feinstein's Bais Din..." what does that have to do with anything?

If a yeshiva has an internal machlokes, and the Belzers had far worse when this Rebbe put himself in charge and he oblitertaed all opposition, it does not mean that "because" there is a machlokes in one place that "therefore" some outside group or person not related to that then has the "right" to commit crimes against them as they see fit. Your lack of thinking is showing.

In English they say "two wrongs do not make a right" and no normal person would come to court of law and say that they acted against someone in a bad way because the victim had done something that they think is wrong in a far away place at a far away time.

Anonymous said...

>>Keep in mind the Belzers(many) think that their Rebbe is Moshiach

What's wrong with that? At least THEIR Rebbe is alive!

>>They knew that the place of his "Beis Hamikdosh" was already designated min HaShamaim for them

Just as legit as the Rebbe's comments that 770 is b'mkomo!

>>maybe Yaakov stoled Eisav's Brocho

You probably mean "stole."

Anonymous said...

no such thing taking away a land that soneone paid money for it

not in bat din and not in court

so the story is sure not like you post it

i assume chaim berlin invested money in papers after all tens of thousends isnt an amount when it comes to buy land in prime area

Anonymous said...

why are you bringing this up now?whei it is totally irrelevant and shimmy biegeleisen hy"d cant answer you????????!!!!!!!!!

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To "anonymous":

Anyone is free to go to Avrohom Fruchthandler and ask him why he considers Belzers to be "gangsters" because of what they did to him and what happened over 20 years ago. Check it out!

And anyone is free to go to Rav Hutner's son-in-law, Rav Yonoson David and ask him why he considers all of Belz to be "TREIF" because of what happened then. Check it out!

They are very angry and steaming at the Belzer Rebbe for that until this day. Nothing has changed. Check it out!

Those are facts that are known quite well to the Chaim Berlin "anshei shlomeinu" as the the real Chaim Berliners like to call themselves. Check it out!

Those are the charges they have made themselves against Belz twenty years ago, when tens of thousands of dollars was and still is a lot of money, and nobody has made any of this up. Check it out!

For you, or anyone, to try to cover-up for Belz in this case of robbery with nice-sounding, sweet-nothing, smooth-talking, even though it's broken Chasidish-Yinglish, bubbe-meises is a nice try, but it has nothing to do with reality, the truth or the facts.

Anonymous said...

#19- I believe you missed the point in your response. Perhaps everything you write about the controversy is true but a) why is it being dredged up now and b) why is it necessary to belittle someone (sb) who in all probability had nothing to do with the issue at hand-he happened to have been a chasid of belz and a talmid of cb (there are no indications he was a bigshot by either so he probably wasn't being called upon in cb to answer for belz) and is not here to answer you. Who are you trying to hurt when you attack someone who died al kiddush hashem? His children? His parents?

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Attention Tzig: This is for a new thread about a dramatic development in a case about a close talmid of Rav Aron Shechter (RAS) and one of his close Talmidim, a Baal teshuva who rose in the ranks of Yeshiva Chaim Berlin, but is now the center of a tragic and now serious lawsuit as well:

See:
Photo, Isaac Hersh: Yitzchak Meir - Isaac (left) and twin brother Shlomo Zalman (Sol): http://geocities.com/saveisaac/files/Hersh28a.JPG

Photo,Michael Hersh: The father: http://geocities.com/saveisaac/files/Michael.jpg

See:
http://geocities.com/saveisaac/
"Save Isaac's Life!

Isaac Hersh, 16, born to Michael & Miriam Hersh of Brooklyn, NY. His parents hired professional abductors to take him from his bed at 4am on June 13, 2007. He was sent to Tranquility bay, a "Behavior Modification Center" in Jamaica. The purpose of this page is to provide information to the public about this place, so we can understand the urgency for Isaac's release as he is being treated in a cruel, violent and inhumane fashion."

CLICK HERE TO VIEW PRESS RELEASE MARCH 19 2008:

http://geocities.com/saveisaac/files/UpdatedPressRelease.pdf

"Law Offices
Joshua M. Ambush, LLC
Hilton Plaza
1726 Reisterstown Rd., Suite 206
Baltimore, Maryland 21208

Contact: Joshua M. Ambush, Esquire, 410-484-2070

PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

FEDERAL LAW SUITE FILED TO RESCUE CHILD FROM MODERN DAY CONCENTRATION CAMP

Isaac Hersh / Micheal Hersch, Father

March 20, 2008, Baltimore, MD

The Washington Center for Peace and Justice, Inc. filed a federal lawsuit today on behalf of a 16 year old Brooklyn boy seeking injunctive relief to stop his abuse and to gain his release from a notorious behavior modification facility in Jamaica, West Indies, where he was sent after being brutally seized at the behest of his parents, Michael and Miriam Hersh. Michael Hersh is a former student of Yeshiva Chaim Berlin in Flatbush neighborhood of Brooklyn, New York, and a disciple of Rabbi Aaron M. Schecter, dean of the Yeshiva.

The complaint, filed in U.S. District Court of the District of Columbia, details the long history of abuse of the boy by his father that culminated in his being forcibly removed from his mouse in the early morning hours on June 13, 2007. The boy was sadistically handcuffed and dragged to a waiting van by two men hired by his parents while shocked witnesses helplessly watched him plead with his abductors.

It was not until several months later that worried family members learned that the boy had been sent by his parents to Tranquility Bay, an affiliate of World Wide Association of Specialty Schools and Programs, WWASPS. The complaint details documented cases of abuse at Tranquility Bay which includes beatings, sexual assault, food deprivation and excessive use of isolation.

Joshua Ambush, the lead counsel in the case, announced the filing of the action against the parents. Michael Hersh, father of the boy is the CEO of Chevra Hatzalah Volunteer Ambulance Corps, Inc., the largest all-volunteer ambulance service in the United States. The complaint also names the State Department for constitutional and civil rights violations.

Ambush emphasized that the lawsuit is not about tort damages, but rather is an effort to save the boy's life and rescue him from a modern day concentration camp. "Child abuse by a parent should not be tolerated in civilized society, and should not be tolerated when the parents hires surrogates to perpetrate the abuse. It is unconscionable that perpetrators of abuse are able to evade prosecution by virtue of the fact that the abuse is taking place outside the jurisdiction of the Untied States. In addition to rescuing this child, this suit seeks to demonstrate that federal courts, in such cases, retain jurisdiction over the abusers and those that aid and protect them."

A copy of the complaint that was failed in this case is attached.

http://www.geocites.com/safeisaac/files/HershComplaint.pdf

Joshua Ambush will be available for interviews by phone appointment at 410-484-2070"

CLICK HERE TO VIEW COURT PAPERS THAT WERE JUST FILED MARCH 19 2008:

http://geocities.com/saveisaac/files/HershComplaint.pdf

From:

http://geocities.com/saveisaac/

"Who's behind this effort to bring Isaac back?

Anyone with a heart.

Many prominent Rabbonim have already demanded this publicizing of this information, to help prompt a speedy release. Please email saveisaac@yahoo.com with any questions.

Please have Yitzchak Meir Ben Michael Chaim in mind in your Tefillos when you say "Matir Asurim" - This is a real Mitzvah of Pidyon Shvuyin."

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To anonymous who says: "#19- I believe you missed the point in your response..." that it is you who seems to miss the point that the response was to the "anonymous" who asked "no such thing taking away a land that soneone paid money for it..." and not to the Shimmy Biegelseisen question.

This entire issue has NOTHING to do with Shimmy Biegeleisen as now some anonymous posters are trying to spin it that way. This is about a much bigger issue of a long-standing dispute between Chaim Berlin and Belz and as you say, Shimmy had nothing to do with it. Agreed. The way his name got dragged into this discussion is when the first anonymous poster asked about how someone like Shimmy could be both a Belzer and and Chaim Berliner and it was fairly well explained:

"again; pls. explain me how shimmy beigeleisen zl was both belz and chaim berlin? there are also others who are both.

pls exlain;"

And that is when some biography about Shimmy Biegeleisen got into it, otherwise he and his name, and defintely not his family, may H-shem have mercy on them, have nothing to do with the "big picture" and please do not drag that into the discussion, as others have.

The "#19" response also had nothing to do with Shimmy Biegeleisen and was addressed to to the anonymous who said: "no such thing taking away a land that soneone paid money for it

not in bat din and not in court

so the story is sure not like you post it..."

and the reply to that was "Anyone is free to go to Avrohom Fruchthandler and ask him why he considers Belzers to be "gangsters" because of what they did to him and what happened over 20 years ago. Check it out!

And anyone is free to go to Rav Hutner's son-in-law, Rav Yonoson David and ask him why he considers all of Belz to be "TREIF" because of what happened then. Check it out!..."

So let's "halt kop" and not mix up the yoitzres. And as for your question: "Perhaps everything you write about the controversy is true but a) why is it being dredged up now..." the answer to that is that it was not out of context because Tzig had started a new thread about Belz on March 10, 2008 about "My, how we've grown!" about the recent Belzer Bar Mitzva and as happens in these kind of Blog discussions posters bring up and discuss all sorts of general subjects related to the post and this one was so noteworthy that the Blog owner, Tzig decided to start a new thread on it, but that was his choice as host not anyone else's.

Hirshel Tzig said...

tragedy:

you need to contact me via email, and tell me more. Like this we know very little.

Anonymous said...

The question was never answered, you can not just take money or land without the proper documents.
If you paid for it, it's yours, doesn't sound so complicated, yet the question was never answered,how can one blame anybody for a loss if he paid for the property properly.
Where is the proof any money was lost?
Papers anybody, din Torah, court documents, not rumors.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

Nothing has been made up.

Everything is based on STATEMENTS made by Avrohom Fruchthandler who explicitly said that Belz caused Chaim Berlin a "hefsed merubeh" and that the Belzers are "gangsters" (his words) and that Rav Yonasan David holds that "gants Belz is Treif"!

Note this is not a court of law, this a BLOG and if anyone has problems with the truth or validty of the facts and statements reported they should go to Avrohom Fruchthandler and Rav Yonosan David, or any Chaim Berliner who knows what happened in the dispute Chaim Berlin had with Belz over the parcel of land and clarify with them.

If they have not released documents or issued written statements that is their choice, but it does not mean that what was reported in this Blog was mere "rumors" -- but if that is what people want to believe, they are free to do so -- but have in mind that in law, a STATEMENT (aka "eidus" in Halachah), whether in word or print, is also a legal fact that has credibility in a court of law or Beth Din regardless if there are other documents.

Anonymous said...

According to what you have said, the statements are totally one sided, and therefore can not be believed.
Just because CB believes in their side doesn't mean it's true as they say it is. The proof is that never went to any court(Din Torah or secular)according to your story, which is quite understanding if you do not have a real case.
"Everything is based on STATEMENTS made by Avrohom Fruchthandler"
And on that you are willing to smear a whole group of people!!
Let them go to a din Torah, that has and always will, be the proper Jewish way.

Anonymous said...

CBT,
I am shocked at the way you apeak of the Belzer Rebbe in your posts over here.
You know good and well that RAS RYD and AF would never speak about the Belzer Rebbe like you did, and they were the ones who got hurt by Belz's actions.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

To anonymous above who says "Let them go to a din Torah, that has and always will, be the proper Jewish way." You forget that this is a blog and not a Bais Din so lots of things are put on the table that nobody may like but it does not make the statements untrue.

The process of blogging is part of what is called free speech which neither Belz nor Chaim Berlin believes in, but Baruch H-shem the blogosphere is not controlled by them and that is why these discussions and this kind of hidden information is put out into the open.

Therefore what Chaim Berlin and Fruchtahndler chose to do or should do is not and was not part of this discussion on this blog. Just as Chaim Berlin is free to follow their strategies like Belz is theirs, so is everybody else free to state what they know for a fact was said and is is known and is true. If you wish not to believe it that is your choice but it does not mean it is not true or that it is a "smear". A lot of news is not pleasant and it is a pity that you cannot face the truth, if it hurts you so much.

What is stated on this blog is not part of a din Torah nor part of a court case, it is being presented to the "court of public opinion" in cyberspace for people to read and decide if what they are reading is true or false and if it all adds up or not and if it is loshen hora they can ignore it altogether. Nothing more and nothind less, so stop trying to push this discussion in a direction where it does not belong because it's very amateur spin and it isn't working.

If you are that frum and believe that dinei Torah is all that matters here then you should NOT be on the Internet and not on a treife blog in the first place because that is also against what the Belzer Rebbe has said. He would like to control everything, including if his Chasidim go on the Internet, but it is not going to work, not for him, not for Chaim Berlin and not for anyone. May as well try controlling the air we breath.

Anonymous said...

Mr CB Tragedy you seem to be running away with yourself. The most you can say is that Fruchthandler says he suffered 'hefsed merube' and someone else says Belz is Treif. Even if we give both of the above the benefit of the doubt it is still short of geneive. If they owned land and didn't sell it then they could have applied for an injunction to prevent the Belzers from building on their land.

By the sounds of it they may have had a deal which they thought was sealed and they may have invested money on the basis of what they thought was a sealed deal. The deal fell through, perhaps through underhand and unethical dealings, and so the Berliners lost out.

Perhaps not mentshlekh and perhaps far from lifnim meshuras hadin but that doesn't make it geneive.

And in case you think I'm sticking up for the Belzers let me tell you that what the Belzers did to their own chasidim with the seat selling scandal may well border on if not actual geveive.

David said...

This blog is just full of nonsense! Belz started buying properties in this area in 1973! It was no secret that they designated that are to be "Kiryat Belz" (Belz Community). They printed and spread brochures including detailed plans for the entire area. Since then they where buying every piece of land available in the area. In 1976 they started already construction of their first 2 buildings.
All this happened much before Fruchthendler started bidding in the area. Actually, CB was fooled in by a local real-estate broker who promised them a plot he never owned. They can only blame themselves, for letting a con fool them, and not investigating the issue before pouring in money.

david said...

Just one more word, I see my note was posted "Saturday, April 26, 2008 7:34:00 PM", obviously this was written in Jerusalem, Motzei Shabbos at 2:34 AM