Here
In the wake of the massacre at Mercaz HaRav, discussions take place, especially over Shabbos. Ultimately, after discussing the horror of the actual massacre, the discussions arrives at what political Matzav allowed for this to happen. Of course we all believe MeyHashem Yotzo Dovor, and that altz is bashert, but we do need to out part, just like we fight for housing when it comes to Brooklyn and Lakewood. So, we got to talking about why nobody seems to see the light of the Rebbe's ways, of how the Rebbe warned that any and all talk about giving up land only empowers the Terrorists. After all, Lubavitchers like to see things their way, as do most other people. The Rebbe spoke, and screamed, and yelled, about the danger that even discussing giving land to the Terrorists would do, but people laughed. They pointed to the supposed treaty with Egypt, and said "look, we're friends!" Yet, many failed to notice that just this year, even Rav Elyashiv shlit"a, 30 years after Camp David, said that the piece of paper Sadat signed means nothing, there is no peace.
At first they said that getting favors from the Government was more important. I remember one of the Ziknei HoAdmorim, may he have a Refuah Sheleimoh, speaking out during Shalosh Seudos against what a Lubavitcher MP had done to bring down Peres' Government. He mentioned the fact that his Yungeleit darfen hooben deeros, and that was more important to him than the Golan Heights. His way of getting Deeros was supporting a Government that would give away the Golan but would repay the Frum for their support by giving them Deeros and more money for their institutions. When Peres' Government fell he lost his Deeros, so he lashed out against the Rebbe. I bear him no ill will, farkert, I respect him very much, but now that Hamas runs Gaza, (maybe in part to some frum people and leaders and political parties not worrying that the Dati LeUmis getting uprooted from their communities would affect them, and that they deserve it for believing in Zionism in the first place) his Deeros, the ones he eventually got in Ashdod, the ones parents went into perpetual debt to buy for their kids, are within range of the Kassem missiles we thought would only bother Sderot, a town nobody ever heard of, but are now harassing Ashkelon as well, r"l.
Today, even those that were indifferent about the plight of those banished from their homes, because why should we spend all that money and manpower to protect 7,000 Jews who live there just to provoke the Arabs, see the mistake they made. They too see the Kassems as a direct consequence of the disengagement. But instead of seeing the err of their ways, they point to the National Religious and laugh at how they still believe in the State, even after the Holy Tzahal threw them out, and destroyed their homes. Never will you see an apology for them going along with the disengagement, even as the Kassems fall. We in Lubavitch never doubted the Rebbe's words, and we see the manifestation of what peace talks can do, but those who laughed, and pointed to worthless pieces of paper like what Begin signed in Camp David as proof that peace works, and that it should be the course we take with all Arab parties, those people are the stubborn ones here, and they'll continue to be, even asd they need to evacuate their own homes, r"l. To them I say, It's OK to apologize, and it's ok to demand a change of course from the Government you send Charedi MPs to in order to get the educational and social services funding you so desperately need.
החותם בדמע,
הירשל ציג
33 comments:
tzig
The Rebbe never would say that this terrible thing happened for a reason
There is not an answer, that's it
There is nothing than can justify such a desaster
What's even more pathetic is the fact that it takes a terrorist to enter the walls of a makom torah, start shooting, and kill bochrim for you to crawl out of your cave.
Shame on you!
Where are you for the last 2 thousand rockets which landed in Sderot?!
Your a real jerk, Tzig.
Thanks for showing your true colors.
I understand that non of the Charedi Black-hat Yeshivos atetended the Levaya.
Could this be true???? I hope not.
indeed the only black hat people who attended were hevra kadisha. here:
http://www.hnn.co.il/index.php?module=albums;task=view;id=4389
its over for jews as people...
may be the back hat gdolim confused the funeral with Lipa concert. Who is advising the alter kakers?
I don't know what Rebbe said but not even a chabadnik attend the funeral. Yeshiva bochrim who were slain while learning.
WHY?????
This piece is cheap and opportunistic. Few can hold a candle to these Kedoshim and THEIR attitude of not dealing with terrorists. Who stands in the same Mechitzah as Talmidei HoRav Kook and Gush Emunim on such matters? They were/are Moser Nefesh, not the "big talkers".
The argument is as offensive as the looloo argument that says DAVKA these Talmidei Rav Kook who didn't accept the "yoke of the nations" were "chosen" because they were supporters of Zionism and were transgressing the Shalosh Shvuos.
What next? If they were learning Chassidus they would have been saved?
It is folly to engage in this type of eschatological conjecture
Isaac
take your time and read what I wrote again. You totally missed my point.
if only we had someone like Mordechai, Olmert might have the strength of King Achashverosh l'havdil, who gave us permission "lehikohel vela'amod al nafshom l'hashmid laharog ul'abed es kol cheyl am umdino hatzorim osom taf vnoshim".
Hirshel,
I re-read what you wrote. My view is that there are two legitimate and indeed halachik approaches to take (and I don't include Satmar here) and at the height of Tzaar it isn't appropriate for us to tangentially suggest that one way is right and remotely imply that this might not have happened if (say) Gaza hadn't been returned.
I understand both sides. I don't think it is anymore "right" to suggest that this would have been prevented had Lechi been in charge of the Government than it is to say it was caused by Olmert negotiating with the Mochoi Timche. The residents of Israel suffer on a daily basis. They have to make painful decisions, and they vote democratically to elect governments. I understand the apparent rigor mortis induced by too many Dayos in parliament. My point, however, is that NOW is not the time to be remotely or tangentially implying that such things would not have happened if another path had been chosen. I understand Israelis saying that, especially victims.
There can be no doubt that those in leadership positions are greatly pained by the terror. They aren't as pained as the victim's families but they are as pained as you and I, and then some.
At the same time, let me state that if I was a resident of Israel, I would vote against a party that favoured negotiation in the present status quo. I would do so because the advice of generals seems to be coloured or diluted by politics, the world over.
In respect of some Chareidim who appear to be more interested in their financial situation, I must say that the fact that the funerals were not attended by an enormous sea of black from all segments (yes, there were some exceptions, few and far between) is an enormous blight on the politically poisoned chinuch system. It is a sad testament to the historical revisionism that attempts to paint Rav Kook and his Mosdos and Talmidim as an irrelevancy. I'm reminded of the reaction of Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer (I think) after the Chevron Massacre. Rav Kook, when he heard the news, physically collapsed to the extent that Rav Isser Zalman said that the attachment of Rav Kook to the Klal was so great that his neshoma was in a state of paralytic shock. Woe to us, when Rav Kook's Talmidim are murdered and the Chareidi Torah world doesn't stop Seder and send everyone to the funeral of the Kedoshim U'Tehorim who were buried with blood-stained Sifrei Torah.
Finally a post I can agree with. I'm sure the holy gedolim were too busy banning concerts/books/scamming the government to busy themselves with attending the funeral.
MK Porush was actually in the Jerusalem Post a couple of weeks back suggesting that Arabs were only against settlements populated by dati leumi people (they're simply too provocative) but had no problems with a place like Beitar. If he and other people in the Charedi community in Israel actually believe that, I have a bridge I can sell them in Brooklyn.
Isaac
I applaud your words, where you decry the fact that most Charedim didn't see it as their obligation to attend the funerals. I do say that now is the time to complain about policy, since people are still upset about the killings, something that'll soon go away. It's also not an isolated incident, and the comments were meant to shake people out of their apparent slumber.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/15381/Belzer+Rebbe+Shlita+Visits+Bochrim+Injured+In+Merkaz+Massacre.html
"Belzer Rebbe Shlita Visits Bochrim Injured In Merkaz Massacre
March 9, 2008
The Belzer Rebbe Shlita visited Shaarei Tzedek Hospital on Sunday, to visit the Bochrim who remain hospitalized from gunshot wounds. The Rebbe arrived with with son and first stopped in at the Intensive Care Unit - where one boy remains in grave condition. The Rebbe sat next to the bed, and spoke with the boys father - giving him much needed Chizuk in these devastating times.
The Rebbe then went to another boy - who is B”H recovering from his wounds - and sat with him for a while. The Bochur related the entire incident was had transpired on that dreadful Thursday night which none of us will ever forget. The Rebbe then too gave the boy words of Chizuk to help him pull through.
These are the only two Bochrim which are still in Shaarei Tzedek Hospital - as some others were Boruch Hashem discharged this morning.
It is interesting to note, that upon hearing of the horrifying attack, the Rebbe stopped taking any visitors, and locked himself in his room to Daven and say Tehillim. Thousands of Belzer Chassidim had been visiting Yerushalayim last week for the Bar Mitzvah of the oldest Einikel of the Rebbe - but did not allow anyone to come in. The Rebbe then attended the Levaya on Friday along with a large group of Belzer Chassidim.
Additionally, YWN has learned that there will be a Hesped in Yeshiva Merkaz HaRav at the end of the week, and the Rebbe is scheduled to attend."
Tzemach, when did you get out? BTW the Belser Rebbe and many "black hatters ", including Anash rabbonim attended the funeral. So please shut up.
1. The rebbe was correct about most of his politicial views, and I agree with most of them. But lets not get carried away.
In regards to Egypt we basically B"H have a peace there. There have been no wars with Egypt and the resulting tank battles and countless deaths (R"L)
The rebbe was not the only one who opposed the so called peace talks. Others did too.For example rav Zvi Yuda Kuk.
The Rebbe's advise would have carried more weight in the secular and national religious community had the rebbe ordered bachurim from Chabad to serve in zahal as the NRP people do or a hesder servixe, but Chabad people do at best some limited service.(if that)
In addition the Rebbe opposed any chabad organized presecnce in the Occupied territoreis. Yes, individual chabad niks live there but even in Hebron where you had a large scale chabad community until 1929, the rebbe was adamant in not having an organized chabad presence. He justified it with the statement that they will give back these territories anyway , a self fufilling prophecy if I ever heard of one.
So unlike the Merkaz horav people chabad neither serves in the Zahal in standard duty or has organized any yishuvim in YESHA.
For the frum community the Rebbe's advice would be more salient if Chabad stopped toadying up to the same secualr leaders the Rebbe criticized over teritories. these same people were regulars at Kfar Chabad celebrations and other Chabad activiites. And these "non political" means were a way of ensuring funding for chabad projects like the Chernobil children's project.
In the gulf war the rebbe said no one would be harmed by the rocktes , he was essentialy correct. but he was speaking from the safety of CH. Imagine for a moment that in those heady days the Rebbe and 500 Chassidim came to israel as the rockets were falling.
There would be no debate today if he was Mashaich or not. Most of klal Israel would accept him a s someone extraordinary in Jewish history, but apparently the Rebbe himslef blinked....
The Rebbe's policy of go for broke we need never negotiate is two sided. If he has access to what will happen to us and knows we will be ok no matter how many wars and how long we fight, then indeed we would be foolish to think of alternatives. But on the off-chance and for non-Lubavitchers substantial possibility that he is just voicing his wise but human opinion it appears to be an enormous gamble. Lubavitch is asking RZ and secular people to fight forever, though they have yet to fully participate as active foot soldiers in the IDF.
One would think a more plausible strategy is never to assume it is a no brainer that we will win every war, always have a plan B and always seek peace and make every attempt to acheive it.
tzemach foments klipah. get a life.
There were many black hatters there in body and certainly in spirit.
''1. The rebbe was correct about most of his politicial views, and I agree with most of them.''
Schneour your input is usually great, though the sentence above is not a good example.
Tzig
I say this with full respect of the Rebbe, but do not think that the policy of not talking of some kind of compromise would be realistic 'al pi derech hateva'
I don't know of any other war between nations that was settled this way.Remember, even Hitler with his mass massacres could not beat the Partisans, do you think we would be able to??
Speaking as a non Lubavitcher as long as the Rebbe was alive there was someone at the very least who could point out the stupidity of certan israeli policies especially when it came to isues as peace and war Mihu Yehudi nad others. He also put fear into the heart of darkness in Williamsburg as he spoke out forcefully and with full fury against their shita and their maansim teyvim.
His sichos went around the world print media, recording radio tv etc . People listned because they knew he knew more than a few Teysfes in Nezikin and had a strong appreciation of Daas Teyre, Jewish history and fate and world politics and diplomacy.
This is where a Sefer Igres or a Eyel in Pld Montefiore just will not do. thats why people need a real living leader who can comment and judge real life situations and deal with them.
I am sure that within a few years some serious leader will emerge in the National camp someone who cares about the State of Israel, about jews in Chile, Iran , Canada and Arizona, someone willing to speak the truth about policy issues.
Again I am not a Lubavitcher and I saw much in Chabad I disagreed with , but as a leader of the Jewish people he was s econd to none.
If the Rebbe was so correct about everything, how come he mostly convinced his own chasidim and not others.The fact of the matter was that most people in Israel were for territorial compromises.
The fact of the matter was that most people in Israel were for territorial compromises.
They're for a lot of other things there too....
what happened to the Belzer Rebbe that he changed his lefty views, His spokesman Eichler was ridiculing the Yiden of Eretz Yisroel Hashliema in his editorial and on TV's poplitic.
He probably feels the heat now, its getting closer to Yerushliem, his Beis Hamikdosh could be in danger,
Don't fret, hirshel; the megilla already spoke to these politicians: "ki im hachareish tacharishi lo'eys hazoys, revach v'hatzolo ya'amod layehudim mimokom acheir..Umi yodeya im lo'eis kozois higat lamalchus"
'They're for a lot of other things there too'
Explain these words,please.
You sound like a parrot.
That's ok, but why would anybody who tries to think want to read the same old parroted stuff?
Most people in Israel still believe that we will need to make a compromise.
Deal with that intelligentally
Molly want a cracker?
Bottom line
Who was by the Levaya? from the chariedim ?
Gerer Rebbe?
Rav Stienman?
Rav Wosner ?
Klausenburger Rebbe?
R Michel Lefkowitz?
Was Oiz Vehodor more important?
Aile Eloahcho Yisroel
Years ago the Belzer Dayan of BP wrote a article that was for retuning the territories, obviously he was serving the wishes of his mentor the Rebbe of Belz eventough it was against the stand of the Holy Reb Aron
Reb Aaron Belzer died before the Six day War, what stand on returning captured lands does the last correspondent refer to ?
Lets step away from politics a moment. I doubt the Belzer rav has changed his mind about territories , but mah inyon shmitta lehar Sinai, Jews were killed and he responded according to halchah , Tefilla, Bikur Cholim etc.Frankly those those Charedi rabbis whose students do not serve in the army and issue "flam fayerdike" statements against compromise also have a lot of explaining to do!
In the Belzer rav's mind, giving back some land would buy peace. I disagree respectfully, but he and others are allowed their opinion. Where I disagree with the current govt is in its policy of not safeguarding Jewish lives in the present situation and its policy of military restraint (easy for me to say sitting in NYC) But one can favor territorial compromise and believe in a strong defense posture. As a matter of fact the 2 should go together.
Short of marshal law how does one stop Arab terrorist activities 100% of the time ?
The stupidity of rabin Peres etc is glaring but even though I am a enthusuast of compromise I can see a strong leader doing so in tandem with a robust military posture. frankly thats what we thought thSharon was all about.
Schneur
The Dvar Yeshua(Aronberg) quotes the Belzer Rav's Z"L shita of opposing the return of territories, I am not capable now to pinpoint the teshuva.
Reb Shlome Gross the Dayan quotes it in his article that was printed in the Machzikie Hadas magazine of the early '80s you are fortunate to have access to all the above better then me,please verify it.
Schneur
My conclusion on his change of mind was based on his mouthpiece Eichler If you follow his editorials you will see you will realize that a change of mind is brewing in Belz, Since Jerusalem came in the picture.
see R' Don Segal's take on the tragedy.
http://www.bhol.co.il/upload0208/2008311_95927196_Page_2.jpg
I think it's really sad and troubling how he blames the victims.
Is the 3 shevuos an issur of such proportions in the litvishe world?
While the Rebbe often quoted various other reasons, his main reasoning for opposing territorial compromise was based on Shulchan Oruch 329. He didn't consider his stance to be political; He considered it to be a simple implementation of an halacha in Shulchan Oruch.
From that perspective, the question of what the majority of the people think, where he lives, or whether his students serve in the army is irrelevant.
(In fact, on can make the opposite argument that those who live in Israel, or who serve in the army, are biased for compromised and hence their opinion should carry less weight).
anon
Rav Segals in his article comes across as non consistent, he is pro he is con,
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