Monday, March 17, 2008

?מה הועילו חכמים בתקנתם



You may have read about the Chasidic Actor who starred in a movie being filmed in Brooklyn, under the Brooklyn Bridge to be exact. He starred next to an Israeli actress, and together they portrayed a Chassidishe couple. (I think.) When I first saw the pictures on the The Daily Yid I wondered how they dressed up a guy so well. Then I began to hear that it's no dressup; the guy's a regular Williamsburger who decided to make a few bucks, so he went and signed up, and was accepted. After all, why dress up a guy with a bad-looking beard and Peyos, when you could get the real deal right here in Brooklyn! Now, after a few days of talk about this "Pirtzeh," it seems like he backed out, citing community and family reasons. That makes you wonder: what was he thinking? did he think that nobody would find out, and that he'd just do the job and get paid without anybody knowing? We may expect an Oofgeklerter maybe to think that as long as there's no actual issur happening, that somehow he was permitted to act alongside a woman, since maybe he can influence her in a positive way, but a Satmarer???

Anyway. Anybody who discusses this topic sits and wonders: How is it that a guy is not embarrassed to hang out and make small talk (or worse) with a fremde vaybel in public? They say he has a wife and children too, and that he would qualify for the qualify for the apartment listed here, at least as far as she's concerned. She wears the appropriate dress needed to live in that house. They also say that he did it with her Haskomoh, that she was fine with him hanging out with fremde vayber. I guess she must not lack self-esteem. But that's not the real issue here, that's just me flying off the handle. The real issue is as follows: Until recently a Yungerman mit Aroopgelozte Peyos meant something, after all, if you're a bum you put them behind your ears or shortened them. So if he had them long and thick, and insisted on keeping them out for all to see, it must've been a siman that he was a Tchatchke Fun A Yungerman, someone who's not fazed by the ways of the street, and sticks to his guns. This is obviously not the case here; The guy went and signed up to act in this movie, knowing what the part called for, and knowing that he'd be in full Chassidic garb. Oyb Azoy Iz Shver The Kashe we ask in the title of this thread.....

We thought that the Churban is internet and movie delivery companies and video stores. We thought that although one may go and find ways to do Aveyres, never would he do it in public wearing the Levush. We thought that years and generations of "Mah Yomru HaBrios," and "S'vet Dir Shterren Tzum Shidduch," was enough to keep our children from doing Aveyres, at least in public. Avroom Karpen proved them all wrong, even if he did ultimately back out. He put that idea in the heads of others now, and his pulling out for his kids' sake can't undo that. I guess he still hasn't gotten rid of the guilty conscience completely, otherwise he'd stay on and do the movie, but others will stand up to to the pressures, maybe even at the expense of wife and kids. Money does that to a person, especially if his world may not be all rosy in the first place. So, my friends, what we've witnessed is the downfall of one more barrier, Karpen made it crash and burn. We should Rais Kriah on that, because there may be nothing left to keep us from Zindigen, other than good ol' fashioned fear of G-d, and some people never learned that....

36 comments:

Oisvurfs said...

What is the chidush here?

Everyone knows that there is an established sub-culture of oisvurfs from all the kreisen.

Satmat has it. Lubavitch has it real bad in Crown Heights and all over. Plenty of Chasidim and frummers wearing the full levush, this includes men and women, are total apikursim in private but for the outside world they still keep up appearances. Maybe they are still following Shabtai Tzvi, who knows.

There is also something else here that is very interesting, TIME magazine's most recent edition cover story for Mar 24 is "10 Ideas that are changing the world" and idea number 3 is "The Post-Movie-Star Era"

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1720049_1720050_1721687,00.html

"...Are movie stars obsolete?...Indeed, we may be in Hollywood's first poststar era...But with Hollywood getting most of its revenue from no-name epics and nonstar animated features like Ratatouille and Alvin and the Chipmunks, the moguls will realize that big names no longer mean big grosses...."

So, big movie stars are out and anyone can be a star if you meet the criteria.

Interestingly, TIME's number 10 idea is "Re-Judaizing Jesus" that even goyim in America are interested in the Jewish roots of Yoshke. So it should come as no surprise that if some movie makers want to make a movie about couples in New York where the frum are so prominent, that they should find a nice looking oisvurf who is willing to star with one of Hollywood's prettiest actresses Natalie Portman whose Jewish and Israeli in the bargain (and if you see the article in NewsDay) the guy says that even tho' he refused to hold her hand (such a nice little tzadikel, guess he must have had his sights set on bigger or better things) he was happy to talk to her in Hebrew (he speaks Hebrew? hmm, what kind of Satmar is that, an Israeli shababnik oisvurf?) and he saysy that she is really interested in becoming more religious. Now how many times has one heard stories of this kind of "kiruv" that "I was only trying to mekarev her/him" (something that Boruch Lanner of YU went to jail for and Kolko of Torah Temimah is headed there too, not to mention Mandrowitz of Ger.)

So let's not get so nispoe'el from oisvurfs, and try not to overdo it with the righteous indignation of what we all know is happening in some parts of the frum community: The teen crisis, the dropout crisis, the teens at risk crisis, the families at risk crisis, etc etc.

Sol shoin zein di giela...!

Chilly said...

So much 'lomdus' about someone you don't even know.'What was he thinking' you ask, and with that you build a whole castle of 'kvitlach'.But maybe he just was not thinking.Never happenned to you that you just did not think?
I see you also missed that his Lubab friend was quoted in the article.Also I thought the name was actually KarFen, a nice Hungarian name.
I don't know the boy from anywhere but I wish him well.

AF said...

When one's yiddishkeit is a style of life, a "derech", what can you expect? Why did he back out? Because he was embarrassed in front of the Eibeshter? No, because he was embarrassed in front of his community, his family, etc. I suppose that's the first step -- but in his case, it was the last step, in the opposite direction, which he just has not yet made (baruch Hashem).

This is why it is amazing to me when they compare this group to that group, and this derech to that derech. How can you even do this? One group's essence is forging a deep immediate awareness of Hashem in one's everyday life through lomdus (and yes, there are members of the same community who behave just like the guy or worse -- but the tools are out there to take advantage of); and the other one's essence is a set of customs.

SDR said...

Not to be cynical and I agree with your post 100%, but l'maaseh what's worse, being in a goyishe movie or having your father declared incompetent and suing him and your brother in a goyishe court?

The point is that at least in some segments of our community altz iz kasher for gelt. This guy is a true AMERICAN chussid. Has anyone researched this guy? What's his backgoung? How the heck did he even find out about the audition? The entire maaseh is incredible. I might be naive but the crazier things get the more have moshiach is on the way. At any rate this is PRETTY SCARY. Mamesh a neheneh m'seudas Achashveirosh R"L. I think that most of our problems stem from the fact that so many of us do not have a rebbe, rebbi, mashpia etc... to guide us. This guy and Spitzer's goyte should get the same agent.

Tibi said...

Who is the hungarian, Natalie Portman?

Anonymous said...

Hey to all lubos...

before u dance think for a minute a comment i once heared from thae great american musernick rabbi avigdor miler zt"l

the satmar rebbe saved American Judiaism by showing that u can be a Jew even while u do un'torah'dige thinks.

so i hope u can now see that his "peyos" is a positive here not a negetive

A Simches Purim to u all

Friendly anonymous said...

And how is this worse than a saleperson working at B&H Photo and chatting up scantily-clad hispanic girls on a hot July afternoon when his family is in the country?

This is what happens when you send your kid to a private $chool for 12years, and they don't bother teaching them any marketable skills.

n said...

Tzig, you need therapy. If this was a lubavitcher you would view this situation in a positive or at least neutral manner. You'll say, 'thats not my point'....I understand your point clearly You still need therapy. ....I know this man's father,and am good friends with his brother, and other family members. I have yet to make a call to find out the scoop but will in time get first hand information. In the meantime, suffice to say that the boys father, family, brother are erlicher yidden who do fear G-d so much that they would never idle their time with loshen hora on the internet. In fact avrum's brother is in business and made painstaking moves not to use a computer personally or ever have seen or used the internet. he doesn't brag...this is just a fact of life...Now Avrum may be a little different than his family...there are many possiblities....he is probably a bit naive, somehow had the opportunity to earn a few bucks and be in a movie, a few days of shooting....since perhaps he and his wife don't know the insidiuos nature of movies because they don't see movies and are not famliar with american movie culture I could see how he could think its no big deal....But when he hears that its a big deal from his family, community...he gets back in line...on a certian level he should be applauded.. how many lubavitchers from erlicher families today who 'stray' from the frum/chassidish path would fall back in line because their parents, the community demanded such??

Anonymous said...

לייען: דער קארפן קאפ

http://mondroe.blogspot.com/

baalbatish said...

Mr. n,
I think you are right. Mr. karpen is probably a naive kid. This a condemnation of the "keep them in the dark" way. Out of touch, with American society. Same as the 26 year old Belzer who thinks its still funny to make a bomb joke at JFK. If he would be reading the papers, he woud know that people sit in the pokie for jokes that may go over well in shul but not so well in American society.
Same as with the peyos. Many a time
I've asked Satmar fellows when they are doing "X", why don't you at least hide your peyos. Answer: peyos don't bother me. Peyos are our dreadlocks, devoid of meaning.
This is one of the legacies of the Satmar Rebbe. Everything is muttar as long as you are dresssed like a Chassidisher Yid. Yeah, he saved yiddishkeit, a broch tzu der yiddishkeit.

Hirshel Tzig said...

N

I really wish you'd use a wee bit of tact when attacking me. After all, we
re supposed to be friends.

SatmarTC said...

there is in Willi an Hotel for hours,Gess what? one of the owner's son became frum.When his father died , he could not go to work to the motel, so, his job was to watch the recorded tapes from the front desk to make sure that the teller was not keeping the cash
it was not in our internet times
the have movies in the rooms
He could not believe who were many of his costumers
Many ppl r naive, everything was recorded

Mottel said...

I spoke to someone who has some inside information on the matter:
Apparently Karpen didn't realize what he was getting into -he had spoken to his wife and either his parents or in-laws . . . Most of his acting was during a simulated wedding -with a mechitza etc.
The 'Lubavitcher' quoted in the article apparently doesn't actually know him.

SatmarTC said...

Avrumy didn't have any idea of the all thing

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tibi said...

'Ein apitropos l'araius' was meant for Lubabs - Satmars - Litvaks and even Governars... of all colors. So you need syatta dishmaya wherever you are. But you also need a bissele sechel.

kurkevan said...

Tzig,
How do you let a slanderous comment like Anonymous 4:46 get through?

For Shame.

Hirshel Tzig said...

kurkevan

sorry. I corrected it.

Anonymous said...

N
The guy was not stopped on Lee Avenue after coming outfrom Tiferes bakery to come metzaraf leminyan in a Movie he knew well where he is getting into.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10.26
Explain me what"s da difference between Millerson Satmar Rov statement and Ben Gurion that Israel will be a real country when we will have a full prison of thief's and rapists etc...

Anonymous said...

The bottom line Hirshel asked a good question, the Levush dosent bar anybody from doing anything, so why the hassle, unless we need to patronize G&G G&B ETC..
There is a famous vort from Reb Moshe, that after Matan Torah we don't need the levush to be different then the Goyim, only in Mitzraim we needed it, since we didn't have anything else to differentiate us a nation, its a gevaldige vort

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Re Anonymous of 9:28 PM.

There is no such mamaer Chazal that says the yidden were redemmed from Mitzrayim becuase they didn't chang their Levush. Anyone providing a source in Chazal (I know it is qouted all over) will earn a $100 donation to Chabad from me. (Chabad of Lakewood)

Anonymous said...

To quote you if I may. "The purpose of this blog was to provide a counter opinion to the Chabad bashing that is so prevalent in blogosphere. I hope I've accomplished that objective"
Sure you did. You will go straight to Gan Eden for accomplishing this goal, Shame on you, that to provide a counter opinion you need to bash others. Hillel said "Mah desonei lach l'chavroch lo savid" this is how low you have to get, and your proud of it? to be a "mischabed b'kulon chaveiro" step on your friends so you can get a higher reach. I'm sorry, this is my first time on this site & I'm disappointed.
Back to the issue at hand, In my opinion a job is a job. From an employment point of view it's no different than men & vaiblech (girls) working together in closed quarters especially in 1 girl offices, where there is shailos of yichud 100 times a day, and lo aleinu there are many nisyoinos that mortals succumbed to, and fell through, in a hush hush. Satmar & Lubavich alike, maybe in Chabad it's even more prevalent, since their exposure to the secular world is greater, with Sheluchim, who are all over, in hick towns, boon docks, out of the watchful eye of a frum society. and the blogs are not busy with them. Yet 2 wrongs don't make 1 right. There is a certain stigma attached to movies, that it's treif, regardless of it's content, even if there was an all male cast. Therefore, perhaps he should of passed on it, but to blow it so way out of proportion, threatning him, his family etc. is a great injustice. To be tried, convicted and sentenced in a blog colmn is unfair. There is a certain thrill involved here, so he didn't think clearly, therfore he is chayov missah b'yedei odom? give him the benefit of the doubt, hevei dan kol odom l'kaf zechus..........SP

SDR said...

Twistelton-Twistelton

Make the donation to BMG and I'll at least try to find it, but CHABAD! I don't think so. BTW why would Chabad want to have a Lakewood location when they know 99.9% of the Lakewood ANASH are against them?

n said...

dear tzig,
1)i didn't attack you..i expressed my opinion that you need therapy in reponse to you attacking other yiden in pubic forum.
2)We are friends. But i'm friends with karpen, and friends with yidden that i don't know too. That means that my allegiance is to truth....and if we try to figure out what true we probably wouldn't be so brutal in judging other yidden and their groups....

Anonymous said...

To:Twistelton-Twistelton,
Before you say that there is no such maamar chazal make sure that you checked everywhere. Have you really learned Kol Hatorah Kilah? Its in Medrash Shir Hashirim perak 4. Now dont forget about that donation you promissed. And no I am not a lubavitcher chassid.

Anonymous said...

To:Twistelton-Twistelton,
Before you say that there is no such maamar chazal make sure that you checked everywhere. Have you really learned Kol Hatorah Kilah? Its in Medrash Shir Hashirim perak 4. Now dont forget about that donation you promissed. And no I am not a lubavitcher chassid.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

To Anonymous who posted at Wednesday, March 19, 2008 11:53:00 AM:

I may not have learnt the entire torah, but I think I learnt more than you!! . If you look in Medrash Shir Hashirim perak 4 (Pasuk 24), it dose NOT say that it says there are four reasons why the yiddin were redeemed, NONE of them being their clothing. (Reasons are, they didn’t change names, language, spoke Loshen Hora, and Aryous) Believe me, I would not offer $100 to Chabad if I wasn’t sure I would never have to pay it!!!

BTW, Chabad of Lakewood is extremely anti Mesichest. But no, a snag like myself doesn’t go there.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Twisty

using your logic: does that mean that I can refuse every non-Lubavitcher kid who comes with his pushka this Purim? maybe not Purim, but the rest of the year?

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"Twisty

using your logic: does that mean that I can refuse every non-Lubavitcher kid who comes with his pushka this Purim? maybe not Purim, but the rest of the year?"

HT,

If you suspect (with good basis) that he believes a dead man is really Hashem, not only can you refuse, but you must refuse to give him. I know Lakewood Chabad has no such belief, so while it is not my first choice of where to give (I don't daven there, so why should I give there as opposed to any other schul in Lakewood), in honor of Purim, and testimony to the strength of my beliefs that there is no such Mamer Chazal, I am willing to enter into this wager. Tell me HT, how much do you give to Lakewood Yeshiva a year!!

HT, did you look at the Medrash and see who is right. I provided the passuk, so you can even do it online!!!!

berl, crown heights said...

twisty, how about this:
פסיקתא זוטרתי שמות ו, ו
שלא שינו ולא חלפו שמלתם ולא גלו סודם ולא בטלו המילה

Anonymous said...

[1] למעשה הגרסה הזו לא מצויה בשום מקור וכך מביא הרב מנחם מענדל כשר בספרו, תורה שלמה, עמ' :239 כי בובר כתב שהמאמר השגור בפי רבים "ולא שנו את מלבושיהם", אין זכר ממנו בשום מקום. המאמר המקורי הינו זה שמופיע בלק"ט שמות ו, ו: כנגד ד' זכויות שבידם(יצאו ממצרים- תוספת שלי), שלא שינו את לשונם ולא חילפו שמלותיהם וכו'. הגרסה של "בזכות שלושה דברים יצאו אבותינו ממצרים", כנראה הופיעה בכתבי יד אצל חז"ל וכך הביא אחד מהראשונים,'ספר המתורגן', בשם חז"ל.

Anonymous said...

Twisty
If you live in Lakewood you should ask the Chabad Rov Of Lakewood he is a nice Boki in Shas And Chazal, he would give you a defining answer on the spot

SDR said...

Chabad of Lakewood is extremely anti-moshiachist.

There are no antis, just Marannos.
http://www.moshiachlisten.com/history.html

Hirshel Tzig said...

ah, the thought police... SDR in charge of the troops.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

I happened to know that Chabad of Lakewood is extremely anti-moshiachist. There is a nut job Lubob who davens in Satamar, becuase lakewood Chabad won't let him scream 'Yechi"!!!