Tuesday, May 22, 2012

Overheard... Can Lubavitch increase its ranks after this "asifa?"

(Note: names and setting altered to protect the innocent)

 My schedule is hectic, so I tend to get my news on the bus. I sit towards the back, sometimes with a sefer, sometimes with closed eyes, and sometimes I schmooze with my co-commuters. And sometimes I’m too exhausted for anything, and I just sit there zombie-like and space out. It was such a day. In my spaced out state, I happened to overhear the conversation going on between the two gentlemen sitting in the bench directly in front of me. I just had to share it with Reb Hirshel:

 Chaim: “Nice to see you, Refoel. After Sunday’s late night, I wasn’t sure you’d be here. Nu, so what did you think about the asifa?”

 Refoel: “What can I tell you? Honestly, at the very least, I was hoping for some chidushim, but there really weren’t any. It could have been done in half the time. I guess I was disappointed, but the overall issue is important, so if a few more people take the matter seriously, at least for that.”

Chaim: “Yeah. I was expecting a more nuanced position than the “let’s draw a line in the sand” approach. Do you think yeshivos or kehillos are going to take a tougher stand bnogea internet and technology as a result?”

 Refoel: “Hard to know. It’s funny, on my way home from Citifield, I couldn’t help but think about the whole Lubavitch question. You know, the whole invited / not invited thing. Are they part of mainstream yiddishkeit or something else entirely. All that. And I wonder, since I highly doubt that Chabad would adopt the anti-technology attitudes that were the theme of the asifa, would there be an element of chareidim that would look to Lubavitch and their mosdos as an alternative.” 

Chaim: (Laughing) “I don’t think that’s happening.”

 Refoel: “Me neither. But think about it for a second, if Chabad didn’t have the crazies, don’t you think they might represent a common-sense approach? If, let’s say, their mosdos were essentially the same as ours. Let’s say that the focus on Chabad identity was less palpable, and they were just concerned with chumash, mishnayos and gemara – the way it was when we we’re kids in the early 1960’s – don’t you think people might consider it as a legitimate option? You know, just plain authentic Yiddishkeit with additional common sense, tolerance and thoughtfulness?”

 Chaim: “Oh yeah! I forgot that you learned in Lubavitch when you were growing up. Listen, Lubavitch isolated themselves. It’s a moot point. They may have once had non-Lubavitcher children in their mosdos and kehilos, but those days are long gone. It’s irrelevant.”

 Refoel: “I know. But, if our mosdos and kehilos push people out, where can they go? Many families wouldn’t be comfortable with modern orthodoxy. I assume something new will have to develop to cater to the families that are less extreme. Chabad would have once been attractive to them – in fact, I know Lubavitchers who came from regular frum families like mine, that joined Chabad merely because they were in the mosdos and grew a liking for Lubavitch. But that was a different time. Yeah, I went to Lubavitcher yeshiva, but I never was a Lubavitcher. When we got to mesivta, people like me switched to places like Torah Vodaas and Chaim Berlin.”

 Chaim: “Who knows? Maybe Chabad will look at it as an opportunity to add to their ranks, and seek to accommodate and bring in more frum outsiders as a result?”

 Refoel: “I don’t think that’s too likely, though. They’re just too far apart from us these days.”


Joe said...

Lubavitch doesn’t want you in its mosdos. Lubavitch doesn’t want you in its kehilos. Lubavitch has no mandate to build frum mosdos or kehilos.

Lubavitch wants you to go on shlichus. Shlichus is the plain gemara, chumash, mishnayos of yiddishkeit now and for the past 40 years.

You, Chaim, you Refoel, and Yoily and Meilech and everyone else, as you are – don’t change a thing – pick up and leave your moisad and kehila.

Your moisad and kehila evolved to be as intolerable to you as they are because they are rudderless, they are leaderless, and they seek to replace leadership with random meaningless actions and decrees. (Crown Heights is no different.)

Lech lecho meartzecho umimoladetcho umibeis ovicho – move out of your increasingly less comfortable zone and find a city, a neighborhood, a block of yidden that haven’t yet begun keeping torah and mitzvos and teach them, show them, be a leader and a role model.

Need guidance? Need some goals, how-tos, directives? Lubavitch will give you those, sure. That’s what you should come to us for.

Will you make mistakes? Of course. We all do. But the work has to be done, and it’s only us frail human beings available to do it. I’ll bet there are many Lubavitchers, including on shlichus, who can learn from you as well once you start this work.

Veatem teluktu echod echod. Go for it.

Disgusted said...

װען דיר נער װאלט נישט מײן גיװען װאלט איך אױך גילאכט֗.
Are you guys living on this world?
Do you have eyes? Do you see how the Bochurim - yungeleit - girls look like on Kingston Avenue? MY OWN kids!!!!! Is being negative to kedusha our motto? I would spit on Manis for talking to our Bochurim this way.
I'm outa here!

The Bray of Fundie said...

Good khakira, but I think RWMO might be a more logical destination than Chabad. After all what is Chabad today but RWMO with the Rav instead of the Rov Levush and Messianism?

More and more often these days I am troubled by the thought that I have the mind and soul of a YU guy stuck in a Kharedi body / culture.

StamADeyah said...

Hey BoF, I share your pain - I'm in the same boat!
Glad to see you stopped suppressing it though like you were tryng to before the assifa and finally came to terms with it.
My nechama is that although in today's dor our weltanschaung may be classified as YU, it's really just authentic Lita, the Lita that has been snubbed out and falsely claimed by the yeshiveshe chevre (see your post on that one).
The problem - and the reason why the nechama ain't such a good one - is where do we bring up our kids; in what framework and infrastructure?
Ein lonu al mi l'hishoein ella al ovinu shebashamayim.
Hoshivo shoifteinu k'varishoina, v'yoiatzeinu k'vatchila, v'hosser mimenu yogoin va'anocho.
I feel like the Anshei Knesses Hag'doylah were looking at our dor when they wrote this bracha!

LkwdGuy said...

More and more often these days I am troubled by the thought that I have the mind and soul of a YU guy stuck in a Kharedi body / culture.

I have felt this way for quite awhile (although I'm not sure I would call it "the mind and soul of a YU guy). It's called Chareidiprax. We try to live our lives as ehrlicher yidden, being midakdek kala kchamura, spending our evenings, commutes and weekends engaged in limud hatorah to the best of our abilities while ignoring the increasing radicalism coming from our very own rabbonim and manhigim. Issues like asseh lcha rav and how to pass it along to our children are difficult but not insurmountable.

sucher said...

From reading all your post and comments, I summarize Lubavitchs message to the Chraidy world:

" Stop pushing us out,
Don't you all see that we are exiting nicely by ourselves"

StamADeyah said...

Feel free not to answer - who did you find that fit the bill for asei lecha rav? Someone in LW?

yoel said...

I think this conversation is very, very naive.Lubavitch is full of their own problems.It's almost impossible for an ehrliche guy to feel at home in Lubavitch and if someone is looking for a more modern place, why would they want to join Lubavitch when they can opt for Chareidi lite like the five towns crowd, or even YU's oilem?

אללי לי said...

!לטהר טמאים לטמא טהורים באומר קדוש

Lutvaks keep complaining that lubabs are slipping.. But Lutvaks are doing the same but in different formats, and blend in easier than lubabs, they to are sending young families to live as shluchim missionaries! in all modern towns and cities without yidishekiet i.e LA MB so on.. and without ifrastructures like real yiddishe soroundings.. and without kosher food-mikvas-shuls-schools etc.

לעולם ימכור אדם את כל מה שיש לו וידר במקום יהודים

על־כן לבי ל'ליבּאוויטש כחללים יהמה ולבי אל־ליטוואקעס כחלילים יהמה על־כן יתרת עשה אבדו

hashem help us please said...

you failed to mention the thousands of buchirim & yingelaht in bp, willi, monsey etc. etc. that wear the shmoineh bgudim and act the part when you see them in shul. but when you look in to their eyes, all you see is a terrible vacuum.
enough said

lodzer said...

"It's almost impossible for an ehrliche guy to feel at home in Lubavitch"
said who?
is there still a minyan shacrith in chabad? is there still a Mikveh for Women?
Are they observing the Shabbos?

Interesting fact....

Tibi Lotzi said...

Allie Li
"!לטהר טמאים לטמא טהורים באומר קדוש"

what category would you put the Weberman saga in Willi?
Is it like the shaliach in Montana trying to save a Jewish soul,maneuvering and cajoling with Jewish boys and girls 24/7,oiver on yichud (borderline)hirhurim..
Or it is different since all his clients were Hiemish from Hiemish mishpochas.....
I chas vesholem fully admire his work and would give money for his case....

zudig said...

hashem help us please said... ---

I guess he didn't want to embarrass you.

Tibi Lotzi said...

".Lubavitch is full of their own problems."
b sitting at the citifield event, I concluded that all so callecd hiemishe have mucho problems... or it was only rhetoric of Vachsman Skulen and Solomon..

zudig said...

Tibi Lotzi said...
Allie Li

Just remember when you point 'your' finger on others like on lubab! 4 fingers point back on 'you' lutvak! - try you will see..

Tibi Lotzi said...


"I think this conversation is very, very naive.Lubavitch is full of their own problems"
Did you see the weberman assifa in willi,
Did you see all the Hiemisha riffraff on the other side of the barricades...
Were the bussed in from CH? or all were Hiemishe Mechies and Hersheys.....
you had the Noaf Deutsch owner of the deli talking to the media publicly....
Is he mamash a yoched...or it is phenomenon in Willi?
For years this garbage was camouflaged with the long G&G reklech and the Burberry Shpitzlech... but somehow the problem is huge and impossible to cover it up...

zudig said...

"Is he mamash a yoched...or it is phenomenon in Willi?'

No it is not a phenomenon but rather a disease/sicknes from ער ואנן times and found in abundance in places like lakewood CH bnei brak and so on.. according to the news! if you can believe them.

zudig said...

Tibi Lotzi "whatever---"

It seems like your using the proven tactics of the best defense is an offense! you keep bashing on lubab! how terrible they are slipping... But you forget about your own.. ltivishe hooligans all over the world who cover up their rot! with a 'so called' blat gemurah! but sorry it still stinks to high heaven! when a lutvak takes off his hat and coat he looks like any other shigetz on the street! so no complaints of course!!! but when a lubab takes of his hat and coat he still is a yid!!! today as tommorow! so, stop your mud trowing on others!

!טול קורה מבּין עיניכם

BMG-BMW said...

zudig: "when a lutvak takes off his hat and coat he looks like any other shigetz on the street!"

See on the other thread a picture of the lakewood boat when one fellow with a beer in his hand his kapel blown off! and he already looks like a regular joe on the street! (even with his sefira beard) no shame, no guilt, no complaints! just-a-run-off-the-mill-litvak!

So which is better a part time shigetz c"v or a full time litvak!

דוק ותשכח

BMG-BMW said...

tibi lotzi: that wear the shmoineh bgudim"

The זוהר הק writes that זעירין אינון who are not caught up with this sin!, the ראשית חכמה writes that almost none in his time that are are not caught up with this sin! and so write others! But they all must have missed tibi lotzi et al litvakes, who don't wear the shmoineh bgudim! and who point fingers on others all the time!!! how is that possible!? they missed them? well i claim to know the answer... but for another time.

שמיני שמונה מי יודע, שמונה אני יודע

BMG-BMW said...

I'm not a lubab, perhaps they suffer more than others because they over extended in their kiruv programs, others belived in kiruv to,but had forseen the consequnces therefore didn't pursue it, But there is a precedence on this from none other than משרע"ה he had a kiruv program to called the ערב רב who made the עגל and 'all klal' suffered! But was he right or wrong? no one second guesses משרע"הbut according to our sages he was right.. but for another time in another place! so litvaks shut-up! mind your 'own' store!

עלבּון התורה said...

I agree with BMG_BMW and zudig, the audacity from the neo lutvakas is עד לב השמים they complain on all even they stink of high heaven! at last they had a חוצפּה to approach a רבּן של ישׂראל, אשר רוב בּית ישׂראל נשען עליו with a fixed plan! not for advise not for an עצה ותחבּולה but for him to 'co-sponsor' a failed idea of a strange from asifa generations ago and now re-hashed by some annonimers! and when he rebuked them outright! they had an עזות to double cross him! where is the עלבּון התורה

אוי להם ואוי לנפשם, הוי זהור בּגחלתן

harediandproud said...


I'm curious to your take on my latest Why The Internet Must Be Banned

JJJ said...

Why was Weberman mentoring/social working a female?

אפיטרופס said...

JJJ : "Why was Weberman mentoring/social working a female?"

- maybe he wasn't.. or maybe..??
- why would this interest you? -
- why this 'case' more than others?
אהבתי רע מטוב..?
- why wouldn't 'your' interest be בכלל, אבּיזריהו
- any way 'why' is not a question!

! אין אפיטרופס לעריות

אפיטרופס said...

harediandproud : "I'm curious to your take on my latest Why The Internet Must Be Banned"

For starters:

בּור בּרשות הרבּים,חייב
אין אפּיטרופּסים לעריות
הרהורי עבירה קשה מעבירה
הקורא בּספרים חיצונים
בּיטול תורה
בּטלה מביא לידי שעמום
בּדאיכא דרכא אחרינא רשע הוא

JJJ said...

Considering all the kediaha v'tahara talk - a satmarer/malach/nk should not be dealing with females.

Fed Up In Peoria said...

harediandproud said...


I'm curious to your take on my latest Why The Internet Must Be Banned
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:42:00 PM

My take is that
you need other people's approval

have way too much time on your hands

don't know how to self- edit

a big hypocrite

ask R'Matisyohu his opinion

tomoshaver said...

Weberman was mentoring for years this youngsters boys and girls that got involved.. so he needed to be in touch with both genders.
I know for a fact that he helped many youngsters from the Sheol Tachtis... Ashrie Chelkoi.
Unfortunately the matzav is getting worse and some rebel decided to take revenge....

yanky said...

why are lubabs so angry? sounds like an inferiority complex. i am heimish and have lived amongst litvaks my whole life. i've seen a lot of making light of lubabs but never flaming anger like the lubab youth has towards litvaks and hungarians. it's always the losers who resent the succesful i guess.

I the hypocrite II said...

Fed Up In Peoria said...
I'm curious to your take on my latest Why The Internet Must Be Banned

I'm curious, did it ever had a heter? is there anyone with his right mind that even thing it has a heter? unfortunately must yiden don't have manhigim now that can say and enforce an issur, but some kehilos do, an they hesitate.. but slowly they are coming to their senses and banning it in all phases to 'their' deciples.

שלום said...


To all surfers worldwide on the 'hisshel tzig' blog, I have in many occasions give my 'learned' opinion on topics mentioned here, But the management chose to neglect it or deliberately didn't post it! I consider that a chutzpah! My request from the olem is: if any of you experienced the same thing, I would suggest that a forum of chushiva bal batem and rabunim should be formed and a criteria as of what can or can't be posted should be established! A new management team should democratically been chosen who will approve or disapprove all comments, with an option to appeal of course! And

!שלום על ישראל, ונאמר אמן

suppose said...

We need to start a Beis Chabad that isn't Chabaddy.
Here's what I propose

1)10am start time is dumb-- 8:45am shabbos morning, Hashkama available as well

2) Nusach Ari yesodoso behareri kodesh, but the kedusha of mussaf doesn't ALWAYS need to be the same tune

3) Chassidus that litvaks can respect from Alter Rebbe to Hemshechim. Don't "chazzer a maymar" like a robotic droid.

4) The Alter Rebbe says you need chalukas hashas. So divide up the shas. Be proactive in learning nigleh and give us more substance than a standard daf yomi. If there is a Chabad way to learn talmud, let's see it, because right now it's not self evident that there's much to see at all.

5) Shalosh Seudos is a halacha. Eat shalosh seudos on shabbos. You can't eat niggunim.

6) Snag isn't a word. If you love all Jews, you can love R Aharon Kotler as much as a Chiloni sunbather.

7) We aren't all involved in "Hiskashrus." In fact, the Rebbe is known to have "Histalkus." And even among those with live Rebbes, they don't say things like, "the ikkar of being a Jew, of being mekushar is...." No one thinks in 2012 that being mekushar=being a Jew.

8) Give nachas to the Rebbe by learning or helping other Jews. Not by saying "give nachas to the Rebbe"

9) DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES have a picture of the Rebbe at the entrance to the shul or other prominent places. It's obnoxious. It's obnoxious in the Yeshivish shul with pictures of Avigdor Miller or the Steipler too.

10) I know you think Menorahs are triangular and luchos are square. You can think whatever you want. Not every ritual object needs to be/have a picture of a square luchos or a triangle menorah. Lions, lulav and etrogs, stars of david are all nice decorations. Pesukim too.

11) Don't put a picture of 770 on your tallis bag or, chas veshalom, paroches

12) Have a full set of shas (MANY chabad shuls don't) and extra points for ritva, rashba, ran, bircas shmuel, kovetz shiurim, noam elimelech, likutei mohoran. You can somehow afford all 3457 vols of likkutei sichos in six versions. Ravina and Rav Ashi are worth reading too.

Any more ideas?

YKS said...

suppose said...

Who's "we" Charley Brown? You begrudge others their opinions? Go ahead, start something and we'll see how many will come up with a list of shtechs on your genius plan.

Maybe you should breathe oxygen instead of methane so you can think clearly.