Friday, May 4, 2012

הריני מוסר מודעה... An apology to HaRav Malkiel Kotler שליט"א


















I see now that several Chabad sites have picked up on the story that we broke here. Some of them totally got the story wrong, as is to be expected, and some of them just made this whole story into a Kotler bashfest. This was not the point of the story. I did not intend for every person with a grudge against RMK or his father or zeide to spew out hateful comments. What I meant to show and to "expose" was the fact that the intentions of the organizers was lacking and that a terrible עולה was done to an עדה קדושה בישראל. RMK unfortunately brought that point to light. I don't know him personally, but I have watched him speak, etc. and I also can see that he's simply an eideler Yid, his other qualities aside, and you're right; I don't think he even meant what he said, it's just the way that it came out of his mouth. I don't think they ever dreamed that the Satmar Rebbe would ever ask them about Lubavitch, so they were ill-prepared, and these are the results. So I'm not saying that he's a "hater." And so I apologize for what this story has become. I did not send it around to any of the sites and I intentionally did not put a picture or title that would bring attention to him or RMS. -  Many in Lubavitch don't care, because "זיי שטייען העכער," and that's very noble of them, but that could be because they live in their own little world. The fact is that the name of the Rebbe and all previous Rabbeyim gets dragged through the mud, and I don't like for that to continue.

The fact that an esteemed Lubavitcher representative approached many, if not all, of the organizers and asked for a shred of decency to happen here, and that they'd like to participate in this gathering shows us one thing: that all of the "taynes" that some of you have about Lubavitch not caring about the dangers of the internet  - is baloney. Who cares what a BRHS Principal said on Zev Brenner? Maybe they're just a bit more realistic and truthful than some of the other schools who think that by "banning" that their kids are safe.... But I digress. Don't tell me about bearing grudges against "Misnagdim" if you do the same, and to their faces yet. If you're here to save the Jews from the 5Towns from the dangers then why not Lubavitch? They too need it. They're not as smart as you and need to be educated. They've some very respectfully and asked to be part of it, they did not sit around and wait for RMS and RMK to come to them. A little common courtesy would be nice. And that's what we asked for. I say this with all earnestness -  I think I've earned that little bit of trust from you. I say this all to clear my very guilty conscience, seeing as to how this got out of hand. AGAIN. And if Rav Matisyahu was somehow also attacked by me then I ask his forgiveness as well.

Now let those who need to apologize to the Rebbe and Lubavitch.

87 comments:

feh! said...

You, with your drivel have vindicated the entire cause for this holy asifa. I just hope that when you apalogize to RMK in person, he tells you, kishentukis. Kminhag chabad.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer said...

Davening in TzTz I came across the "coffee table book" on Shaloh. It is so fascinating that I want to buy it, but it costs $35++shipping, a bit much for my budget.

Anyway, one of the fascinating historical points that emerge is that right after the War, everyone was working together. Rabbi Josh Silbermintz, ylct"a Reb Benzion Shenker, a very young Shlomo Carlebach, Rabbi Rephun from YU - all working together!

מי יתנני כירחי קדם!

P.S. If anyone has the book and would like to sell me the copy at a reasonable price, please be in touch.

berl, crown heights said...

Seriously? I just can't decide what's more pathetic – the whole stupid anti-internet "asifa" or lubavitchers asking to be invited to it. A close call indeed.

Shmiel Friedman said...

HT!
You were the source on spreading a story That did NOT happen,

Now you claim that reason you did it is because an "esteemed Lubavitcher representative approached many, if not all, of the organizers and asked, that they'd like to participate in this gathering,"

Why cant you name that Esteemed Lubavitcher ?
Why is he or you reluctant to publicly claim yes! we are part of the chraidi world, and yes we can benefit from something that is lead, and initiated by a non Lubavitcher,
In my book that would be an esteemed Lubavitcher,
So far you and that esteemed are anonymous, and doing what Lubavitcher are always doing, from the cesspool they are in, they degrade the rest of Klal Yisroel by claiming loudly! Our Zubireus iz Beser from Zeiur Edius ,
but if some one wants to talk to you about how they became your ebirus you start crying Jew hater and besmirch everyone except your self,

I was there in Monroe by that meeting and the whole story is not true, the satmer rebbe asked on details how the Kinus will play out, and then he said he will think it over and will respond,

Lubavitch was never mentioned, not before,during ,after the meeting.

It could be some Lubavitchers in their closet moan quietly that could have benefited from some Hisoirres on this issue, but they were brainwashed to stay in THE BOX and as THE BOX will degrade so will they and you,

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Reb Shmiel Friedman

you are a LIAR.

Shmiel Friedman said...

I challenge you to come over with that "Esteemed Lubavitcher" to the Rebbe in Monroe, to discuss jump-starting a campaign within Lubavitch , by Lubavitchers about the dangers of the internet ,
If you accept you will have a chance to hear from the rebbe first hand about the lies you are spreading,

Anonymous said...

YGB, which book?

And Hirsh, kol hakvod to you. Anyone knows RMK is an aidele neshomo.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so now you're changing your tone? You just told me that the SR never said it! Apologize, please.

I'll speak to the esteemed Lubavitcher and ask him. He went to the Skulener Rebbe, he should have no issue with the SR.

Btw, Lubavitch has had several conferences about Internet dangers and will most likely have another one soon, now that they've been excluded from this one.

heshy said...

I still don't understand how it was oisgehalten, even if true, to spread rechilus and be a cause of massive machlokes?
So rechilus is not something that is important, or does an implied disrespect bechadre chadorim overide kol hatoro kuloi?

thoughtful jew said...

Are blog posters required to think before they write - or does that only apply to the commenters?

chaim said...

Why do Lubavitchers feel they need a special invite? Do they not feel part of Ultra Orthodoxy?


Explain what you meant here :"The fact that an esteemed Lubavitcher representative approached many, if not all, of the organizers and asked for a shred of decency to happen here, and that they'd like to participate in this gathering"

What "shred of decency" are you talking about?
Every Jew is invited.If you think you are not invited, you need to get rid of that chip on your shoulder

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

at least I think afterwards... Some people never think.

kalman said...

What's sad is that all the Lubavitchers with little exposure to the rest of the frum world have once again been fed lies that "everyone hates them" and react angrily
I don't blame them, they grow up in a bubble, fed from an early age about two hundred year old machloikes that everyone else has long forgotten and made peace about.
You ,Hirshel know better, but I guess you feel the need to make yourself vichtig, stir the pot, make machloikes and than be the "bigger man" by "apologizing" and being a conciliator.
Than you walk around strutting your stuff as "the guy who stood up for Lubavitch and the Rebbe"!
The reality being that any objective observer who saw your blog and the unbelievable gemainkait of the other Lubavitch web sites printing unsubstantiated SINAS YISROEL,came away feeling very negative about Lubavitch.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Kalman has his cake and gets to it too...

Turn the other cheek?

"Please, sir, may I have some more,?"

This is so funny, it's sad.

we're supposed to sit there and take it, right?

and Chaim, every other Rov and Kehilla and Yeshiva was contacted and basically forced to be part of it. They didn't just hang up signs and wait for people to come. Stop kidding yourself.

Shmiel Friedman said...

I Repeat:

I was there in Monroe by that meeting and the whole story is not true, the satmer rebbe asked on details how the Kinus will play out, and then he said he will think it over and will respond,

Lubavitch was never mentioned, not before,during ,after the meeting.

Chosid said...

Do you have any proof? Will you give the name of your source?

Yosef G said...

After a bit of fishing around the net I see why you are unhappy with the other Chabad sites.Shturem.net claims that it's a "pirsum rishon"!
What a chutzpa!You were the "nachshon" to spread this machloikes!!YOU deserve all the "credit"
Derech agav, shturem.net is the type of site that one should not even read in bais hakisei.It's unbelievable with what a zilzul andsina they write there.
http://shturem.net/index.php?section=news&id=56579

Tibi Lotzi said...

Shmiel friedman
You are a liar...
but answer why is chabad not invited..

Tibi Lotzi said...

Can someone ask Rabbi Kotler,(maybe Shmuel Friedman that claims to have been there) if sitting with Apikorsim in one room is so bad, then how could his Ziede Reb Aron campaign for Election (Bechirioth)in E Isreal, for the Agudah?
Did not the Satmar Ruv claim that you can not sit in Keneseth with Apikorsim?even for the sake of saving yiddishkiet.
Is chabad worse then the Mapam and the communist?
He should call the talmid chochem Rotberg(Tuvias Brother) from Mecchon Mishnas Reb Aron for a lomdishe excuse...

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

“every other Rov and Kehilla and Yeshiva was contacted and basically forced to be part of it. They didn't just hang up signs and wait for people to come. Stop kidding yourself.”
This is not a fair claim/attack. When was the last time you saw ANY Lubavitcher Rov on ANY Kol Kore, be it about bugs, Tznius, milk, or anything else! I am under the impression that it is unofficial Chabad policy not to join these proclamations unless they are Chabad generated. You certainly cant expect anyone to go ask for signatures. And that is besides the difficulty of figuring out who is a mesachist and who isn’t. Imagine the uproar if a Chabad rov was asked to sign, and then turned out to be a Mesachist!

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tomoshaver said...

Twistleton
"When was the last time you saw ANY Lubavitcher Rov on ANY Kol Kore, be it about bugs,"
FYI, the Rabonim in Ch bedatz joined the issur on Bugs.
On the other hand Rav Heller who is the brisker machmir wrote a teshuva leheter it was printed in the last oir ysroel of Monsey.
Study the teshuva and get back to us with your heoras... if you dont undersatnd it ask Malkiel...

tomoshaver said...

Twistleton

"I am under the impression that it is unofficial Chabad policy not to join these proclamations unless they are Chabad generated. You certainly cant expect anyone to go ask for signatures. And that is besides the difficulty of figuring out who is a mesachist and who isn’t. Imagine the uproar if a Chabad rov was asked to sign, and then turned out to be a Mesachist!"

Bla bla

What does it have to do with stopping internet....
By seeing the deep hatred that a mature 60 year old quote unquote Rosh,We all see that Chabad was not stupid by not joining these groups...

apologize?? said...

I dont' quite get what you are apologizing for? Maybe he never expected the Satmar Rebbe to ask about Lubavitch, but if his reply was as you said it was, even if he's an eideler yid on the outside, he seems for of hate towards Lubavitch on the inside - and that's pretty bad.

lozmirup said...

HT,
thanks for doing the right thing with this mea culpa. what u & most of the posters forgot is simple capitalism. the websites (chinfo, collive, shturem) are private biz that make money with eyeballs. more controversial = more hits = more $$$. they have no morals & i know this from a bididi hava uvdah. your original post was about the big issue which is a fair discussion without loshon hora, and they picked up the small sidebar which is a distraction.

BTW, lest anyone think this story "can't" be true, several yrs ago RMK was in chicago and a delegation from the chabad yeshiva came to ask him to visit and give a shiur. he said "ich gei nisht arain in chabad".

Anonymous said...

Rabbi B - whats your address? I will buy you this book as a gift. Happy birthday.

Snag said...

The only people that hate are Lubavitch
Just listen to them for two minutes
And it's all שנאת עם הארץ לתלמיד חכם

Snag said...

To quote a Lubavitcher "there are only tro types of Jews, those that are lubavs and those that will become Lubavitch . So you tell me ,what go they think about the test of klal Yisroel ? Not much .
All the THALUCHA garbage on Tom tov is to spread their chasidus regardless of any other faction
They walk into Shuls try to speak of the rebbe just to transform us .what lunacy and hatred to תלמידי חכמים
Anytime they see a talmid chochom בעל גאווה

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"When was the last time you saw ANY Lubavitcher Rov on ANY Kol Kore, be it about bugs,"
FYI, the Rabonim in Ch bedatz joined the issur on Bugs.
On the other hand Rav Heller who is the brisker machmir wrote a teshuva leheter it was printed in the last oir ysroel of Monsey. “”

The Rabbonim of CH signed on a Kol Kore with OTHER none Chabad Rabbonim? Please show that. If you just mean that they asser bugs, what does that have to do with what I wrote, that Chabad Rabbonim will never sign a Kol Kore with other none Chabad Rabbonim.

“And that is besides the difficulty of figuring out who is a mesachist and who isn’t. Imagine the uproar if a Chabad rov was asked to sign, and then turned out to be a Mesachist!"

Bla bla

What does it have to do with stopping internet....”

A little bit of reading comprehension is in order. Point was simple enough even for (obvious idiot like) you. They don’t want to ask a Chabad Rov to sign, because he may be a Mishechist, and would use his inclusion as ‘proof’ that there is nothing wrong with being a Meshechist. And it is difficult for an outsider to know who is what in Chabad.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

meileh Snag should speak that way, what else can I expect. But you, Twistelton?

ניט שיין

but there's plenty of "love" to go around here...

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer said...

My birthday is actually 10 Adar Aleph...

3 Zabriskie Terrace
Monsey, NY 10952

Thanks!

pitputim said...

Tzig, I don't understand your back peddling. If it was said, it's poor form, and you have a right to be critical.

I'm interested to know what evidence there is that these asifos are the best educational method for convincing people of anything whatsoever. My impression is that that those who don't, won't and those that do will. The rest are there for the party atmosphere and that feeling of 'belonging'

As for Lubavitch being there, why on earth would they WANT to. Each group should use the methodology that is effective for its adherents. I'm not sure it was ever part of Chabad to go to such events. They go their own way, and are entitled to do so.

חסיד said...

תורה מיט מצוות און חסידות

Clarification said...

Following reports that he had disparaged Chabad in a meeting with the Satmar Rebbe regarding participation in the upcoming “antinet” gathering in Citi Field, Rabbi Malkiel Kotler, Rosh Yeshiva of Beis Medrash Gevohah in Lakewood, released the following statement:

“It was noted at a meeting recently held about the upcoming Citifield Asifa that Chabad Lubavitch has traditionally not formally participated in such events.

This was chas v'shalom not intended in any way to cast any negative light whatsoever on them or on any other chug in Klal Yisroel by anyone at the meeting.

Any other inference or understanding of what was said is wholly mistaken.”

Stay strong don,t back off. said...

give me a break. Why are you apologizing????? WHY???


this guy clearly has huge big issues behind and beneath his outer "KLIPAH"

You did the biggest Mitzvah to let people know the two faced person some of these people really are.

Loi sailech rochil????? Its a mitzvah to lett people know when someone is a deceptive individual.

I just read his apology??? Give me a break. The guy is full of SHLEET.

Snag said...

He did not apologize and he is not two faced he will tell you straight out what he thinks about Lubavitch

larry said...

So according to you this guy really thinks of Lubavitch as second class? Apparently that is not the case when it comes to him taking money from lubavitch and his cousin being helped in the drug program and when it benefits him. And that is your example of a ben Torah .. Talmud Chochom?
From his "clarification" se brent em der hittel but he has too much ego and gaavah to say chotosi.

shtultziker chabadsker said...

After reading RMK's clarification, I have discovered:
1. RMK says that Lubavitch was mentioned, so either he or shmiel friedman is lying... Good call Hirshel.
2. Meileh an anti-semite that is caught speaking anti-semitism gives a half-hearted apology is one thing. I would have expected more from RMK. Ein choshdim adam b'ma sh'ein bo....

As a side point. To all those saying that Hirshel started the Machlokes. Cut the garbage. Sinas chinam is from the one that speaks sinas chinom. You can't speak hate, and attack the one who reports it for spreading hate. It's false self-righteous indignation and it's nauseating.

shmuel said...

"Loi sailech rochil????? Its a mitzvah to lett people know when someone is a deceptive individual. "


Where did you find this "mitva"?

Nice try at a "heter", though.

Der Shygetz said...

Well, I knew you were heading off to become the haimish Scotty, and you have succeeded in your mission.

Close this sewer down. Either that, or go back to your Otisviller Rebbe and be done with us.

We don't need you to report on every perceived slight. We have enough of our own problems for haters to report every time you bring up nonsense like this or any other malicious nonsense against anyone in any other community.

The asifa was never intended for us and we have no place there. Reb Aron is a true ohev yisroel (and if it were not for 2 things that I cannot agree with regarding his derech, I would have long since left Chabad to follow him), and he was the one who asked out of his own ahavas yisroel.

His question and Rav Kotler's answer were private matters, not meant to be broadcast by some ferd..I mean tzig, for 15 minutes of fame that he got from incompetent Chabad wannabe journalists who sucked up this dreck for their worthless sites.

Larry said...

Der Sheygetz, bist takeh en echtegeh shaygetz.

people like you allow the problems and problematic people in the world to get away with their two faced modis operandi.

if this schmuck actually thinks and feels the way he expressed himself to the SR let everyone know.
if your dealing in good faith with someone and in truth he thinks lowly of you what would think and call this person?? a schmuck and that's what you are he and him. motzo min es minoi. I hope you get a choshuveh place at the empty stadium for loosers.

chaim said...

Der Shygetz,
We've had our run ins,(back on the hashkafa forum...) but I have to give you credit, for being honest and non partisan here.It takes guts because you are one of the few bloggers who is not anonymous .

It's quite shocking how all the other sites jumped on this report, that is just based on.......................nothing!
The Tzig was not there and has no idea what was really said.

Yanover said...

anyone from lakewood see the poster by r' kotler this weekend about this?

chee said...

What posters?

Der Shygetz said...

Not only does R' Kotler not have any issues with Chabad, but Reb Aron just mentioned Chabad because he knew that Chabad has as little interest in the asifa as he himself does. Every community has its style, and this is an Aguda-USA type event for its own constituency.

Besides, you know what - I don't care what Rav Kotler thinks of Chabad or of Reb Aron. There is no reason to mekarev Rav Kotler's talmidim. None at all. If he really has a nephew who needed certain assistance from Chabad, then the nephew found Chabad and that was that - and it has zilch to do with R' Kotler himself.

My place at the stadium? I am proudly wrapped up in the Internet for parnosse and I don't even use a filter because BH I can control myself (and the filter I did try created a serious issue that nearly cost me a nice chunk of money).

Hmm...H.com..Chaim...no recollection at all of you or your style. Hatzlocho. I was rarely serious on those forums.

הכסף יענה את הכל said...

astute shoppers have noted that in the last few months there have speared on the jewish market numerous products bearing the joint hechsher of kj and chk, which leads to the conclusion that aron teitelbaums being misgadel biklon chaveiro at the expense of rmk is a financial issue...

eech said...

Now, that is amkus!

Tomshover said...

I like the way you have a Rosh and a Mashgiach full of hate, and u try to kill the messenger....
the first version is hate and the 2nd version is hate too
Woh cares what the history of chabad was with demonstraion/asifas..
Where does it matter when you stop some so called epidemic?
He and the mashgiachh are pushet little midgets that can not difrenciate beween a Knesiah Gedolah and a meeting to stop the so called shmad.
Btw, the Skverer never in his life and his fathers life went to any asifa or demonstration, even now he did not even sign... give me a break... it all sinas yisroel.. the last ambers of the Maran... In Isreal every knows its over.. just Malkiel is slow he did not chap...that the haefest is over

Rodney King said...

Can we all get along?

After the Avi Weiss crowd signed a statement of "principals" to be welcoming of open toayvaniks, there was an effort made to get everyone else to counter it by signing a Torah declaration of principals.

http://www.torahdec.org/Signatures.aspx

Every group signed including from the Litvisher, Chabad rabbonim, various chassidussen & even YU rabbis.

The only reason why there are not even more signatures from all the various groups is because the organizer has remained anonymous and some rabbonim were afraid it was a set up.

Duvid said...

Toshover,
You talk about sinas yisroel and midgets?
When was the last time you lookedin a mirror?

jonny said...

HZ... you didn't quote anybody
you are just making up hurtful stories.

If you don't know what RMK exactly said, you shouldn't write anything.

Why are you making up stories?
To publicize this pathetic blog?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Jonny

whatever makes you feel good...

You go to B and H! said...

You heard the latest? R' Zalmy Teitelbaum made a tnye with R' Malkiel that the assifa has Yiddish speakers first and then his oylam packs out. It's also rumored that the Satmar chassidim who own B&H gave a million dollars and will be controlling the pre-speeches Expo where they get to farkoyf all the internet filter equipment that the rabbonim are telling people they need to buy.

Duvid said...

I see you knew R'Kivi Ehrenfeld z'l,
Care to share something or are you too shook up now?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I'm gonna share soon, iy"h

and yes, I'm shook up.

Duvid said...

Very sorry.
I was shocked to, but I only had a small business connection.
Really shocking!
Time for achdus.

boruch dayan emess said...

YWN regrets to inform you of the sudden Petirah of Reb Akiva Eherenfeld ZATZAL, the youngest son of the Mattesdorfer Rav Shlita, who was R”L Niftar this morning at the age of 38. Lakewood Hatzolah Paramedics were summoned to his home at about 7:00 this morning after he failed to wake up.

He leaves behind a wife and nine children.

The Levaya will be in Lakewood at 3:00PM at Lakewood’s BMG, 7th Street & Private Way, and will be at Yeshiva Chasan Sofer on 50th Street and 19th Avenue (Boro Park) at 7:00PM. The Kevura will be in Eretz Yisroel.

Binyamin said...

Vosiznaies,
Has a very good response from R'Yair Hoffman to the despicable attack on R'Malkiel Kotler and R'Matisyahu Solomon.
One poster already brought the way the story was portrayed on Shturem.net, where Rav Solomon and Rav Kotler were stripped of any title and terrible vilified.
Unfortunately, you,Hirshel are the source for this.
That's probably not something you want on your record

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why is it very good? because you want it to be?

I don't agree with the commenters there, but the only thing that brought it up were the terrible comments made by Reb Malkiel while Rav Matisyahu listened and said nothing.

Der Shygetz said...

Your post is like herpes - the gift that keeps on giving:

http://www.vosizneias.com/105877/2012/05/07/new-york-op-ed-rav-malkiel-kotler-issues-official-statement-about-rumors-on-chabad-internet-asifah-comment

Do you have a mashpia? If so, contact him immediately, because you need to make a tikkun for all the agmas nefesh you caused - and fast.

Tikkun 1 - SHUT DOWN, and start a completely objective historical blog.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

שייגעץ ארויס

Mamma Lashon said...

שייגעץ

That's how you spell it in Yiddish? It's the from the Lashon Koidesh word sheketz, so shouldn't it be shin kuf tzadi?

lozmirup said...

Binyamin,
hoffman wrote a long-winded defense of RMK & missed the point. the fact is chabad, YI, OU, YU were not invited. you can't call this a kinnus of klal yisroel and drop people who don't fit your box. call it kinnus chareidi, kinnus cheirim, kinnus mivakshei hashem, etc... when this asifa was launched, they said we are going to bring together all of klal yisroel to work on this challenge. to be m'lamed zchus, they were naive to think they can pull it off. But their actions speak volumes, regardless of what RMK said in an unguarded moment.

Ombudsman said...

Hirshel,

We have official denials of your story. It's not impossible that there is a cover up but on the other hand, even if you trust your source very highly, how are you allowed to believe him? There are hilchos lashon horah and he might have misunderstood a word or nuance.

Especially after the freye tried to fry R' Malkiel for his haskomah to Grama's sefer that some say disparages goyim, he has been very careful of anything he says in public. Whatever his personal views, it is very unlikely he would actually attack Chabad in public.

You also may not be aware that after the Philly yeshiva building burned down 23 years ago, a big gvir had pledged to replace it, but backed out after R' Elya Svei publicly took a swipe at Lubavitch. R' Elya called Rav Schach in a panic and asked him what to do. Rav Schach found him a replacement donor with one phone call but admonished R' Elya that who told him to make an outburst?

tomoshaver said...

Binyamin
"One poster already brought the way the story was portrayed on Shturem.net, where Rav Solomon and Rav Kotler were stripped of any title and terrible vilifiedn'
I did not read the Vos iznies, but you reall thing tha chabadhas to be more gentlemen to persons that can not sit with them in one 50,000 seat arena.
He is not even a talmid chochem , he only got the job because he was born by the right mother... at least he should of act as a nice guy, in order to gain some respect.
In my books there is no mitzva to give respect to a Rosh....even if he has enrolled there ten thousand guys...especially if he is a hatemonger..
Who knows if his creating Sinas Yisroel did not cause the premature death of such a chosheve benon shel kedoshim...Obviously by the levaya they will search and find every sin in the book but the obvious...
Yesh din veyesh dayan..

Thurston Howell III said...

I always was under the impression that Hirshel has a more intellectual readership than most blogs so I am disappointed to have to wade through the muck of Tomo-shaver's ignorant drivel that is difficult to read considering all the spelling mistakes & bad form.

Besides all the motzee shem ra that is difficult to argue against as he is someone with a strongly biased opinion who has no substance to back up his mean-spirited assertions, he is also making accusations that are easy to disprove and make no sense.

R' Malkiel comes mikoyach his father, not his mother.

And he is a talmid chochom. He learned in Beis Hatalmud & in Brisk by R' Berel. His chabura in Lakewood is populated by the Briskers from R' Avrohom Yehoshua. They would not pick his chaburah by their own choice if he didn't know how to learn.

Tomo-shaver reminds me of an idyot from Ner Yisroel who has been going around slandering Lakewood that most of the bochurim do not understand the shiurim. Even if this false myth spread by that idyot were true, the big lamdonim of the yeshivishe velt are certainly not in Baltimore.

frank said...

YI OU and YU, were invited and declined.

Chometz for Pesach said...

It would never be a hava amina for OU & YU. OU is agav one of the most Left wing organizations there is. Don't be fooled by the few black hats working in the kashrus division.

National Council of Young Israel's Pesach Lerner knows that he will have a huge revolt if he signs on to a Charedi event like this from the modern orthodox soinim of Charedim. The President of Young Israel of Hewlett recently wrote a poison pen letter to 5 Towns Jewish Times attacking kollel parasites in Lakewood. He was angered by Rav Salomon's visit to the 5 Towns after Charedi rabbonim had slammed Young Israel of Woodmere's Rabbi Hershel Billet for allowing a galach to give the Shabbos morning deroshoh. And Pesach Lerner has enough problems on his plate right now. Check out the articles in Jewish Week about 20% to 30% of Young Israel shuls in a revolt and trying to secede from NCYI.

MJ said...

Tomashover,
You are blaming R'Malkiel but not blaming this blog that caused the rechilus?
What a krummeh kop

Kol ha-posel be-mumo posel said...

It's alter nayess that shvache learners who couldn't pass the farher to get into BMG Lakewood go around ploppering that most bochurim in Lakewood don't know how to learn, that the shiur is too advanced for them.

tomoshaver said...

Howell !!
"And he is a talmid chochom. He learned in Beis Hatalmud & in Brisk by R' Berel. His chabura in Lakewood is populated by the Briskers from R' Avrohom Yehoshua. They would not pick his chaburah by their own choice if he didn't know how to learn."
I agree that tomoshaver is a idiot and has no spell check on his computer...But your proof of his talmid chochemshaft is very weak..
Being connected to the right family would get you in any yeahivah...this is a sad fact... and the same connection(from fathers side or the mothers side)placed him as the biggest rosh on earth....

tomoshaver said...

MJ
"You are blaming R'Malkiel but not blaming this blog that caused the rechilus?
What a krummeh kop"
To blame this site is the same as blaming the torah that wrote and publicized parshas korach...

tomoshaver said...

Howell 11
"
Tomo-shaver reminds me of an idyot from Ner Yisroel who has been going around slandering Lakewood that most of the bochurim do not understand the shiurim. Even if this false myth spread by that idyot were true, the big lamdonim of the yeshivishe velt are certainly not in Baltimore."
very intellectual and articulate analogy, as good or better the the Dubner Magid

Thurston Howell III said...

Tomo-shaver,

It is true that someone with big connections can undeservedly get into most (but not all) yeshivos. But if anything is weak, it is your argument to put down R' Malkiel. While granted that R' Malkiel is not the oiker horim hador, but he is still big enough in learning to be a rosh yeshiva. And he is only one of the four roshei yeshiva of Lakewood.

Do you know anything about haissah Briskers? Obviously not. They would not spend one minute listening to his chaburos oyb er ken nisht lernen. The Brisker Rov's mishpocho would also never take him for an eidim if he is the mediocre kop that you make him to be.

tomoshaver said...

Howell 111
"Do you know anything about haissah Briskers? Obviously not. They would not spend one minute listening to his chaburos oyb er ken nisht lernen. The Brisker Rov's mishpocho would also never take him for an eidim if he is the mediocre kop that you make him to be."
I disagree on all the above...
he is not a magid shiur in some local yeshiva ketana, he is the Rosh of the biggest yeshiva on earth.. with no chochmah and no torah to back it up...

Thurston Howell III said...

If you disagree on all the above you are either crazy or have proved that you know nothing about the Brisker oylam.

R' Shneur Kotler was also not "a Rebbi Akiva Eiger" in learning but it doesn't mean he wasn't on the madraigah to be a rosh yeshiva.

Mirrer rosh yeshiva R' Shmuel Berenbaum, the masmid hador, hot gezogt oif R' Shneur that if he HAD THE TIME to learn, he would be from the biggest geonim.

Like father, like son, R' Malkiel is running around most of the time for fundraising, yeshiva and Agudah inyanim.

It is you who sounds like you have no chochmoh and only someone ohn Torah could throw out such baseless accusations that R' Malkiel is a gornisht in lernen.

tomoshaver said...

Howell 111
"If you disagree on all the above you are either crazy or have proved that you know nothing about the Brisker oylam."
Maybe I am crazy, but I am not enamored by brisk 24/7, when the brisker ruv or reb chaim has a gut vort its good, but brisk as a cult is no interest to me as to most crazies of Klal Yisroel.. who carry Tzitzis Shabos kodesh..

tomoshaver said...

Howell 111
"
Mirrer rosh yeshiva R' Shmuel Berenbaum, the masmid hador, hot gezogt oif R' Shneur that if he HAD THE TIME to learn, he would be from the biggest geonim."
Maybe I am crazy, but the more you defend Malkiel the more you are embarrassing him,
It is as I would say Reb chaim Kanievsky said that if the fund raiser of Zaka/Kupath Hair etc.. would spend his time for learning he would be the Shagas Arye...
But since he is only fund raising.. he is only a good fund raiser...
You don't have to remind me constantly that I am crazy.. since I know it already....

Thurston Howell III said...

Oh please! So being medakdek bamitzvos for Brisk in ain veg is cultish but in an anderra veg for Chassidim is not?

Al kol ponim, Brisk today is lehavdil the M.I.T. of the yeshivishe velt. The best kep are there. They are not misnagdim. These kep Brisk accepts are from Litvishe, all kinds of Chassidim including even Breslov (and they would not turn away a good kop from Lubavitch), Oyberlanders, Yekkes, Sefardim.

There are chaburos in Lakewood that the Briskers will not listen to. But R' Malkiel they go to.

With all your complaints against Brisk you are not being practical. The best & most popular shiurim in the yeshivishe velt today are given by talmidim of R' Berel Soloveitchik.

Thurston Howell III said...

Kupat Ha'Ir? Vos redst du shtussim?

The difference is that R' Malkiel is already on the level of giving a teefah shiur. He just doesn't learn enough that the shiur is episs vee the amkus of R' Boruch Ber Kaminetzer.

tomoshaver said...

Howell 111
Uvemoshav Lietzim Loi yoshev..

tomoshaver said...

Howell 111
"Oh please! So being medakdek bamitzvos for Brisk in ain veg is cultish but in an anderra veg for Chassidim is not?"
since you are the spokesman of Brisk,as a layman non brisker tipesh, can I ask you a simple question?
The Brisker have a lot of Lomdus that torah has to have mesorah, Matike Shemuah (hakdoma to sefer hayad), the famous answer from the Bies halevi to the Radziner, all the stringencies in the family is kept steadfastly, all in the name of having a mesora,
But how in the world can a family in the last century invent new halochas and customs,Fiefen on shulchan orech to pasken according the Rambam,
Are they converts? what is their mesorah from the bies Halevis father? Are all minhogie ashkenaz out of the window?
Is this called mesorah..

Thurston Howell III said...

The Bais Halevi was R' Chaim Volozhiner's grandson. Talmid muvhok of the Gr"a who was cholek on Shulchan Aruch.

Thurston Howell III said...

The Gr"a for many things IS the echte Ashkenaz when others got it wrong. He reconstituted the nusach hatefillah to remove the later add-ons that don't belong.

tomoshaver said...

Howell 111
"The Bais Halevi was R' Chaim Volozhiner's grandson. Talmid muvhok of the Gr"a who was cholek on Shulchan Aruch."
the tipesh likes your answer...and knew the answer,he just wanted to hear it from the horses mouth...
the Gra's is next to Moshe Rebinie... but you have to agree that it is called revolutionary not mesorah..

tomoshaver said...

Howell 111

"The Gr"a for many things IS the echte Ashkenaz when others got it wrong. He reconstituted the nusach hatefillah to remove the later add-ons that don't belong."


Its a little arrogant for a tipesh to disagree, don't you think that a person that is ready to rehabilitate all the Ashkenaz mesorahs, is not considered the Echte Ashkenaz...
How did the Gra look at minhogai Maharil??
He was only a Echte Ashkenaz because he was born in that part of Europe like you and me.

Thurston Howell III said...

Der Gaon is not exactly like Moishe Rabbeinu. Oolei vee der Rashb"a. And early Rishonim can certainly be cholek on the Shulchan Aruch.

The Gr"a had every right to reconstitute the Siddur after people added to the original nusach from Germany & France.

As far as the Mahari"l or anyone else, the Gr"a sometimes went with earlier sources that were anderish if he felt the current practice was based on a ta'uss or shibush. Sometimes Geonim and sometimes as far back as Yerushalmi. Yesh al ma lismoich.