(not an actual photo of Curly)
This may be hard to believe for some of you, but I don't relish this story. It comes to us from our friend Chabakuk Elisha.
Act One. That's Funny, You Don't Look Jewish. Chaim and Billy both lived in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, just blocks away from each other, in worlds that almost never collided. Chaim was a Hasidic Jew, he'd never heard pop music or watched MTV. Billy Campion, known as the rocker Vic Thrill, was the star of an underground band. Billy put Chaim, who took on the name Curly Oxide, into the band, and in just one year, he leapt from the 19th Century into the 21st.
You can hear it HERE after the first 8 minutes.
Source: NPR's "This American Life"
What gets me is this kid decided to come back! He lives in Kiryas Joel and probably argues for/against Aron and Zalman Leib all the while knowing that it's all nonsense. He has told his wife and regrets it now and has this dormant gnat gnawing away at his insides. Here's a guy who spent years leading a double life, doing כל דבר אסור and lives as if he's one of the guys in Satmar.
What about the fact that his parents decided to marry him off quickly and that's what got him out of there,
Are we to believe that he's totally rid of his old desires and can now raise a religious/chassidish family?
Is it good for a young boy/girl to act out their desires whilst young so as they don't fight them for the rest of their life?
Can parents really expect that getting him married is the cure to all problems?
42 comments:
Is that an actual picture of the person in question?
no, I'll make it clear soon. The guy in the pic is a self-hating Jew
I listened to the Chaim/Curly-Oxide story on NPR. Initially I found it sad, but ultimately it was not as disheartening as I thought it would be.
I'm sure that their are many differing views regarding his ultimate choice, but the fact that he pretty much returned to the straight-and-narrow shows that he never really joined the Punk-Rock world. He was in between worlds for that year and a half, and easily could have gone either way - but it seems to me that, at least in this case, marriage was the right choice.
Although he was surely exposed to an extremely wild part of American culture, he remained a part of Chassidic Williamsburg. He slept at home, dressed Chassidish, went to Yeshiva - and it seems to me that he even kept his Williamsburg mentality, probably not even changing an iota in his way of thinking.
He enoyed some mayim gnuvim, and surely has some chatas neurim to remember, but all-n-all, it wasn't the real "him."
We are just entering a new era where the 3rd generation of Charedim have to make sense of their identity.
The first generation were Holocaust survivors. The second generation were children of survivors who felt a need to live up to parental approval and satisfy their parents and lost ancestors. But I think many of the 3rd generation question their identity, their clothing and language. Of course most wil follow he company line but many will think for themselves and try new paths.
I think all of our Charedi groups are caught in this issue.
The insularity issue will also effect the charedim. People want to know whats out there, they want to know about other people, about history, about their bodies and minds. Can American charedim keep a million children ignorant of so called secular issues in the year 2075 ? Can these kids be kept ignorant of our constitution, of American history of Jewish hsitory,of science of music aand art . Again I doubt it.
Thus while the MO world is also suffering losses , it offers the only realistic model for frum life.
Perhaps a more Hirschian (read frum) model of Torah Im derech Eretz could be the answer.
Charedi life can function as long as their communities are either small or isolated, but can you imagine having a millin charedim in the US, many of whom can not speak English correctly and hardly write Lashon Hamedina .
I doubt such will exist in terms of large communities of Charedim.
Kurenitzer,
Although I disagree to an extent, I do think the sad truth is that it is imperative to address these issues, or big numbers may be lost C"V.
The challenge for today's generation is, in a word, "access."
Their has probably never been a time in history where kol davur assus was as accessible as it is today - I don't see how joining the MO will save anyone, but it is extremely hard to expect chareidi communities to maintain the closed environment under these conditions.
I think the issue of not being educated and hence being unable to secure jobs is more and will be more of an issue than being ignorant of American history and politics. Parents will be unable to support children and their families which will force some change.
Hirshel,
I have to disagree.
There is very little education needed to be a businessman - the vocation of choice for the average chareidi.
But the innate curiosity of a human being is harder to control.
CE, most people don't have what it takes to be a successful businessman, they simply don't have the access to money needed to start out. Most Yungeleit work in menial jobs which pay enough for a family 1/4 of their size families.
oh my. you are all just too much. I heard that story and you know what a young man is allowed to make a mistake. many satmar,belz,chabad,and litvaks go thru this stuff.SO WHAT!!! you know that getting married to the right person does help.It is a shame that the age of marrage is such a cookie cutter thing. The truth is that every person is different!so people are ready to get married while they are teens and others are not.this poor boy will be in his 60's and fellows will ask him to sing some of his old hits. get off his payos and leave him alone!!! we are all curley oxide. oxide means rot!!!I hope we all learn from this to love and listen to our kids and do something if they are not happy and strong. youth is a great thing and must be channeled or will turn to the dark side. there needs to be change and the only change comes form the family.the yeshivas are not able to handle basic chinuch let alone problems on this level. it is always a shock to me how people watch there money and leave there kids run wild!
anon
1) how do we know it's the right person?
2) She doesn't intend on changing him
3) He only went back so as to stay within society, not because he realized his mistake
heshey did you listen to his voice he did not want to break with "his" world. does anyone know that it is the "right person"with a spouse.listen the gal know all about his past. mistake. listen it is better to deal with oneself than to just cover it up and wear nice cufflinks. I have more respect for someone who is honest and makes a mistake than someone who just plays the game. I am not telling you to do what this fool did but to be easy on someone who does mess up. I can tell you one thing for sure this guys family did not know where he was until it was too late. why did they not know? what kind of father and mom lets the kids run wild without even asking hey Yoalish where did you get that hip earring? and such.there are lots of stories like this and they are nothing new I am sorry to say.there are stories of such fellows in the Bal Shem Tovs time.
I think its hard to halt the natural process of curiosity.
Lets make something clear Secular studies may include Philosophy, Literature, psychology etc, but to know how to speak English, read and write to know about one's body and the universe we live in is not secular studies. These are matters that people need to know.
In addition to these, there are the matters that curious people seek like history and art and music and sociology etc. Finally there are skills one needs to know for ocupational proficiency like computers, marketing, sales etc.
By the way knowing how and why the US came to be including our constitution , Bill of Rights, Declaration of Ind and history is not only a side issue .It is of utmost importance. Many charedim think the US is just another province of the Austro-Hungarian Empira like Bukowina and that Bush is a sort of King.
Others have no idea that its davka the separaton of Church and state that enables Judaism and the charedi brand to flourish here.
The rebbe soke a number of times abut the US constitution, about the Pilgrims etc.
We live and flourish in the US and it behooves us to know why this country is diferent than others and what makes it tick !
Don't you think that for all America gives us , our chedorim can spare 2 hours a week to seriously study the nature of our state, or is that too much time .If its too much I hear that Slovakia and Rumania are looking for new settlers.
Kurenitzer, don't you think those that are encouraging the chareidi system are aware of all those concerns? The Rebbe surely was, yet was adamantly against limudei chol.
I get the impression that they think the medicine is worse than the disease, so while some curious souls may be lost to the system, it will be a minority, and certainly much less than if people were exposed in a structured way, to secular ideas.
BTW, almost everyone I know that was not exposed to limudei chol has no interest in history, science, psychology, literature, etc.
you should all know that today every child should have a good grasp of basic skills. The world is changing and these basic skills are in need. Everyone likes to quote the Rebbe when it is to their purpose. The Rebbe said we should change the whole Yeshiva system. changes such as the basic idea of a school year. and how about the idea of how many children should be in a class? How come no one remembers that? How long will the heads of our communities remain in the sand? I guess it is to make up for the time that the R. Shimon Bar Yahai was in the sand up to his head. now they just put their head in the sand. I feel we are all like this young man. what is that quote that in every year we do not have the Bais HaMikdush is like we lost it all over again. To me every child we lose is a Churban. And every child like this one who got married and is living a life true to Torah and Mitzvah is like light after a bad storm.
Certainly the Rebbe and the dor shvii of the Royal family , male and female were all interested in what you call Limude chol, I call them Limude "teva ". After all history is controlled by G-D. The human brain is fashioned by Hashem etc .
People are naturally curious . Attempts by states like Albania, USSR , China etc to restrict the mind and intellectual acsess of its people , all failed.
In my opinion there is no way we will have 1 million Jews in America who will have less secular knowledge than a teen ager from the South Bronx.
One can be a charedi and still posess secular knowledge.
One can have secular knowledge and not go to university.
And one can go to a university and still be frum and even a charedi.
Of course one can do all of this and not leave a religious sviva like YU or Touro College.
I always find it amusing that the people honored by many Charedim and sought for advise by other Charedim are davka those who went to college or have secular knowledgel ike the Lubavitcher rebbe, the Novominsker rebbe rabbi Jacob Perlow, , rabbi Yitzchok Hutner Prof. Aron Twerski, Dr. AJH Twerski,Dr. Seligson,Prof Paul Rosenbloom, Dr. Velvel Greene,Meir Abehsera, Dr, Nissan Mangel, The late Dr. Resnick, Rabbi Mayer Schiller, Rabbi Dr. Alter Metzger of Stern College etc.(The list goes on).
All fine outtanding charedim.
wow Dr. Resnick Passed away?
Is that true?
Dr Resnick passed away sometime within the past year. Yehi zichro baruch.
Thanks heshy for a rather entertaining one hour diversion (i listened to the recording) I found curly's story to be rather inspiring. Your questions though are problematic as is the sentiment expresed by some of your readers: something is very wrong with the chassidshe velt and that it is in the process of splitting at the seams...in other words you look at a particular story and extrapolate that the whole is in trouble. This kid is a big rebel by williamsburg standards. The root of his rebeliousness was not chasidishe life but rather an interpersonal lacking between this boy and his father (never complimenting/appreciating). (its interesting to note that a 'big' rebel still loves his yiddishkeit, his parents, his life and is so repectful; the like apple in a another stream of yiddishkeit would not be so whole; please don't make me spell it out) The root of most of those who 'go off the derech' stems from a family dynamic problem. In many repects it is the chassidishe williamsburg that we should look to emulate rather than kurtzners view that 'the bifurcated' modern orthodox world has it more right than the rest. P.s. The chassidishe velt promotes innocence and purity through childhood; not ignorance.
N
you're putting words in my mouth. I prefaced the post by saying that I do NOT relish the story. Nowhere did I say that the Chassidishe velt is coming apart at the seams. I DID say that certain approaches will need to change otherwise the physical existence will be almost impossible. I understand very well the pros of a Chassidishe upbringing, it has kept me out of trouble on many an occassion.
my dear N.
ignorance is not innocence but sin.The thing that you see as the "promoted chassidic velt" is putting ones head in the sand. Please do not take this in the wrong light. All in all there is not one family in the whole world who could not learn something in a parenting class. I do not believe that there is any better answer to the massive problems to teenagers within the so called modern orthodoxy. There are problems. that is a fact. In every Yeshiva there are children left behind who just drift through the system. In every Yeshiva when asked to solve the problem the answer these are not "our children". Is this your chassidishe velt it is not mine. this is not a thing I want to give my children, grandchildren or yours.
my dear anon,
come into the tent, and pick a name. I don't understand that you are making any other point but promoting a 'parenting class'. sounds good to me...
howdy
my most dearest N
I am very old and wise however I also keep forgeting my name in this blog. it is for that reason that I choose to go with the anon. from now on I will start my inputs with howdy. I am most hurt that you do not see the point that I am making that there are real problems in our back yard.
Blessings upon your head & home.
dear howdy, real problems exist. i'm sorry that you feel hurt. you appear to be traumatized from some life event...
howdy
dear my most n
please do not take this in the wrong way. I am your pal and do respect you and yours. have you been living on the moon? and when you return to this world please bench Go'mel. Have you ever been to a Yeshiva in the past 200 years? I work with many orthodox groups and you have no idea of reality. if you want I can show you what goes on every day. though I must say it would be nice to have you in our group therapy meeting every morning at 6:50 on 16th ave. we have fresh ground coffee. once again peace be upon you and all of yours oh great N.
I wish people would address the questions I posed.
howdy heshy,
I had a long talk with N and he has seen the light. how about this yidstock thing? I heard this morning in my place of worship that there is a whole anti-yidstock going on. What do you think about this storm? This thing makes curley oxide look like the nothing that it is. where is my fur hat and white socks. what is next?
Who's behind the anti-Yidstock?
hirshel,
1) no
2) no
3) no
thanks for the opportunity to express my thoughts by responding to your questions!
N
so now what?
The guy is stuck in this rut for the rest of his life?
He's gonna work on his Midos and Tayves? I don't think so, but what do I know?
howdy heshy
this fellow has a honest sound to him. oh ok he went into some sick stuff and got hiself into deep smelly stuff. You know I think he will be ok if he stays out of the main Satmer hangouts. He got married has a home, kids,and job. and most important he has friends!you can learn more and get more support from friends than from any Rav or Holy Book. I just hope that I am a good friend to you and my pal N and keep you guys from harm. If I have not saved you from the pain of the world and harsh pain of growth I do ask for you to forgive me I still have a golf game to keep up and I am starting a class in knife throwing after the summer. any way have a great shabbos. we all have to have some place where we can let our payyos down and air out our white socks.
WELL SAID HOWDY
tziggy,
what rut? at one point in his life he experienced angst, both inately from growing up and some family dynamic that left him feeling not whole. An opportunity presented to feed his yetzer hora (bh for him it turned out to be theraputic without too much collateral damage) and the guy did tchuva.
Curly's story sounds sensational, but the reality is Curly is not extraordinary. Or maybe Curly is extradodinary yet so is every yid. we all strive to do tchuva and are fully capable. Psycologically speaking the impetus for his temporary break with tradition has been resolved. I'd like to have him as a guest star mashpia in shul. A real Bt!
howdy
this fellow is not a true Bt he was just a knuckalhead. sounds like a fun guy to have at a shobbos table. but that is all. now I am a true Bt learn all shas and stuff. then I went and bought a motorcycle and went accross this great country of ours. well I made it as far as Buffalo where I sold the bike to some American indians for a song and got a job as a teller in a blood bank. there I met up with this chabad rabbi and married his daughter. now we have a wonderful family and I never want to go on a bike again. that is a bt story! some guy who just never learned ran away from UTA and played rock star. well I think he will do just fine. Have a great shabbos all.
dear howdy,
there is room is the world for at least two bts. Maybe you wanna be king bt, thats ok but we gotta vote on that, unless you want to self coronate, which is also possible in america. in any event congratulations.
howdy
oh my stars dear N
A bt has to know what he is doing some fool who just wants to eat corn chips and watch tv what is that? I am hurt. ok I can see your point but the point that I am making is that what is the big deal about some guy like this. that is just a teenager who had a ruff time. this is a kid.why do we have to label his whole life for being young? I am so glad that you joined our group sessions every morning on 16th ave. your inputs are both welcome and helpful.
once again blessing upon you and your home oh great light of the east that you are.
your brother
howdy
Hirshel Tzig
i was reading sepurie chabad in the Rabbi Yisroel Klapholtz set of books this past shabus and i came across the name Hirshel Tzig, or hirschel the milchker, very funny.
Goth is gone
Hirshel Tzig is my hero.
why?
ht,
what's with the "try to remain on tpic" thing?
no more?
are there any other recommended sites of this genre that get more activity?
Most of you make me very sad for humanity. There are different cultures EVERYWHERE around the world. The truth is that often false ideas and false ideas take over our minds and fill our homes and we live religiously by the letter of the law to live and have others live in a way that isn't even Godly or healthy. I pray that all of you gain wisdom and knowledge. Living in a bubble doesn't mean you're living your life right, it means that one bad idea could have easily been put in your culture years ago by a dumb person and that it has gone on till this day. God bless.
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