Monday, April 30, 2007

The solution..... Tznius Police!



Guest Post by commenter Zezmir.

According to Ynet News, the Tzibur Hacharedi in Yerushalayim has established a new "Tznius Bais Din" to grant kashrus certificates to women's clothing stores. The Bakehila newspaper, reported over the weekend that an assembly of Rabbonim gathered at the home of Rav Eliyashiv Shlita, and decided to establish the Tzinus Bais Din. Representatives will examine the garments sold in clothes stores and will grant kashrus certificates to worthy vendors.

Yeshiva World


Here's what a commenter - Joseph - had to say about this idea on YW: "This is a wonderful idea that ought to be replicated in chutz l’uretz. They should also have woman on the streets enforcing (thru reminders) tziniusdika dress. We suffer today from a terrible machla of lack of tzinius."

Zezmir begins:

Finally!

For years we have been trying in vain to create a Dirah Lo Yisborech in Olam Hazeh – but it seems that women just don't get it. We have been telling them that tznius starts at 3 years old. We told them that every hair and every knee must always be covered. We told them that they need to control their urges to expose any skin. We told them that they must wear clothing that isn't too tight, isn't too loose, isn't to long and isn't too short. Unfortunately, it's just not enough – it's too hard for them to know what is acceptable. Thank G-d, we have been blessed with visionaries that understand the need to provide people with a clear standard full with kashrus organizations that will provide parnossoh and jobs for those who play by the rules and don't have marketable skills.

I am sure that this will stop all the problems that continue in our communities: It will improve the "drop-out rate." It will improve Ahavas Yisroel, cut back on Loshon HoRah, improve the level of Kashrus, build Jewish pride and love of Torah and Mitzvos. I only propose that we add a hechsher on the garment, expel kids that don't have the hechsher, cut off contact with anyone that is seen looking at the window of an uncertified store, and perhaps we can even have supervisors on the streets to stop and inspect the women as they walk. But I just realized that it won't work. Soon there will be fake hashgochos. In Monsey people will begin selling tank tops and mini-skirts with the Badatz and claim that they didn't know. Can you imagine the disaster? Women won't know what's acceptable anymore! They'll be tricked by frauds that sell them clothes that they say are muttar that really aren't! What a kilkul!

This must be stopped..

24 comments:

Akiva said...

Actually, you'd think tzinus problems would keep more drop-outs in, I mean ... well, you know what I mean.

On the serious side, attending a recent wedding in CH, my wife was floored by the lack of tznius of many of the young(er) ladies. That said, can you imagine the beis din of older rabbonim going through the ladies garments...

Ok, this ones fine, that's not, umm, not sure, saleslady, can you model it for us? Some how I see every store just selling large grey bags.

Anonymous said...

A plan for teaching our young ladies not to follow the fashion of the day is great. A plan to allow peeping Toms access to our wives' and daughters' wardrobes is not.

Anonymous said...

Idoit!
You don'tunderstand???? It can be very hard to find truly tznisdike clothing. I can spend weeks going from store to store for aimple clothing!
I have been dreaming about the convinience of a store that is all tznisdik so that I can find what I need and get on with my business.
So go ahead and make fun, but i can't wait for the day.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ND

I'd ask you not to use such names please.

I would guess that if you need days or weeks to find suitable clothing you're

a) live in desert

b) are too picky about clothes

c) need to braoden your choice of stores

unless you chose a you won't be happy with the clothes they give a hechsher to.

Aussie Echo said...

Just what we need. More self-righteous rabbonim and their lackeys policing our yiddishkeit.

Anonymous said...

Don't make fun of tzenius campaigns. Lubavitch has a serious tzenius problem and could use chizuk there. My daughters were quite surprised at the lack of tzenius of Lubavitcher girls. It was not like that 40 years ago.

Anonymous said...

It's all in the education, no matter what you'll do to try to make hashgachos, it will not work, b/c it doesn't really have a/t to do with the stuff the store sells, it has to do with what the customer is looking to buy.

Mottel said...

Tznius may be a problem, but making a hechsher won't help. Those who want to dress properly do already, those who don't, won't shop at the stores. This is only a wasted pat on the back to say 'We tried.' when the problem remains uncorrected.

Anonymous said...

ailimisher, if the campaign is a silly one, I will make fun of it.

Anonymous said...

Tzig, I think ND meant to say "I do it" as opposed to "idiot." If you notice in the next sentence she also had trouble with spacing.

Anonymous said...

After all said, I still believe there is a benefit:

When my daughter needs to go shopping for clothes, why should I and my wife have to fight about certain clothing? It would be much simpler to say: These are the stores you can go to!

Yes I know such stores already exist, but why should I have to argue with her about how this store is different? Its much easier to say we only buy where our Rabbonim give a Hechser.

Let us hope that it is done "mit Seichel"!

Anonymous said...

What a group you guys are. Listen, if you dont like it, don't shop there.

Anonymous said...

I dont understand why Chabad gets inducted in this problem. If Elyashev took his valuable time to tack the problem then it is definitly a universal problem. Since he would not meet on a unique Chabad problem because he doesn"t give a damm about Chabad there wine is anyway nesech as the psak of loony Shoproner that gets in your face in every post. So why all this selfbashing?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

He took time, yes, But the initiative was not his, it's people with too much time on their hands, supposedly worried about Tznius.

Akiva said...

Here's how this doesn't make sense. First, go to a womens clothing shop in Bnei Braq or Geulah, Rav Elishav's neighborhoods. Been there with my daughter within the past year.

Think they're selling anything untznius, no way! Similarly, think the shop in Williamsburg is, no way! Ahh, but can you buy it in a size too small, buy a 3 piece item and not wear one of the pieces. Of course.

The hidden unspoken argument here isn't that the things being sold are not tznius, it's they're "too fashionable"! In other words, women should be stately and dignified, regal, not overly attractive.

Scary when it's put that way, huh. Sounds like what they're saying in Iran.

More scary isn't the concept, many would agree with it (I don't completely disagree myself). More scary is 70 year old men making those fashion decisions. And zealots running around with spray bottles of bleach enforcing them.

Anonymous said...

Did you note the tight white bekishe rav aaron Teitelbaum wears. Are men allowed to wear tight clothing ?

Anonymous said...

Lately in every Charedi neihborhood their are some people that make a living out of Pirtzas, In Williamsburg there is a guy by the name Klar runing around town, to scout out some new transgression in yahadut, for awhile he was spraying paint on a certain clthing store on Lee Ave, a store that exsisted for 25 years in that same spot, until he decided that it"s time has come, there are some rich guys that support him financialy for his actions, they are guiltridden that they live in their private life a promiscous life, so they buy him off and the ribono shel olum, plus the rabonim are spineless and they offer their signature when ever he approaches their door. In that town no rov would like to get caught being less observant then Klar. In Bnai Brak there is the same type of guy by the name Motke Blau,in Beitar there is the Vadat Ichlus..with no pirtzos they have no livelihood.

Anonymous said...

akiva hit it exactly, what this shows is an obvious ignorance on the part of these Rabbonim as to how women clothe themselves. What is tzniusdik on one person may be completely untzniusdik on another, even our vague guidelines can let some cat out of the bag. Even grunge can be made fashionable. It is an impossible mission.

Anonymous said...

Mel brooks once did a movie called Robin Hood-Men In Tights. Will he now do one called Gedolim-Rabbis in Lycra?

Anonymous said...

Akiva said that the clothing that they sell is tznius but that is not always the case. There are stores that sell untznius clothing. I'm in shock about the way women dress. You know what the
Chazon Ish said that just like a man has to learn Torah a women has to be dressed & act Tzanuah. The womens Torah is Tzinus. A woman that is Tzanuah has a special Kedusha & influences people around her. There is no end to Tznius
just like there is no end to learning Torah. Also when Moshiach comes & when Techyas Hamesim will be Ha-Kodosh Boruch Hu will take the Tal Techiya that comes from the sweat of Limud Torah & will make men alive & the same with
the women. Where will He take the sweat of the women since she doesn't have a chiuv in Torah? He will take it out from the sweat when she dressed betzinus. As it's written as it's written "Bezechus Noshim Tzadikos Neglu Ubezechusten Negael.

Anonymous said...

What did the Chazon Ish say that you didn"t know before, please explain,
Is she exempt from believe in G-D ? or hilchos shabos ? Nido? or it"s like every joke has to be said in the name Yarmo ROV.

Anonymous said...

I wrote what the Chazon Ish TZ'L said but I'll write it again.
He said that just like a man has to learn Torah a women has to be dressed & act Tzanuah. The womens Torah is Tzinus.
I don't know where this comes from but a woman that is Tzanuah has a special Kedusha & influences people around her. There is no end to Tznius
just like there is no end to learning Torah. Also when Moshiach comes & when Techyas Hamesim will be Ha-Kodosh Boruch Hu will take the Tal Techiya that comes from the sweat of Limud Torah & will make men alive & the same with
the women. Where will He take the sweat of the women since she doesn't have a chiuv in Torah? He will take it out from the sweat when she dressed betzinus. As it's written as it's

Anonymous said...

Tight-fitting, short, flashy clothing, low cut necklines, long and extravagant Sheitels, flashy jewelry, stylish hats, perfume etc. are contrary to Tznius standards. Besides being the cause of other people’s sins.

My Dear Sisters!
Please Let us wear clothes that are befitting for Jewish Daughters. This will cause the Shechina to reside in our midst. This will bring many blessings upon ourselves, and ultimately bring the Geulah Sheleima בב”א

Anonymous said...

YOU ARE RIGHT! BECAUSE TZNIUS IS STILL OUR PRIDE AND GLORY

AS The Torah states
והתקדשתם והייתם קדושים Holy You Should Be!

By us wearing immodest clothing we distance the Shechina (Divine Presence) from us Chas Vesholom

As the Torah states:
ולא יראה בן ערות דבר ושב מאחריך Immodesty should not be seen among you! Or Hashem will c"v withdraw his presence from you!

""If we cause the Shechina to departs, we are stripped of our protection ח”ו""

Maybe this is why we see so many Tzoros, illness, kids at risk, problems with Sholom Bayis, crushing poverty and unbearable tragedies, that have befallen us.

In the words of the Holy Chofetz Chaim tz"l in a famous letter:
“A huge fire has broken out in many places through the despicable styles which the power of uncleanliness has unleashed”………. THIS IS WHY BLESSINGS AND PROSPERITY HAVE LEFT US……. To a large degree this despicable style negates the statement of the Torah:
“Your camp should be holy and there should not be found therein erveh”

Tight-fitting, short, flashy clothing, low cut necklines, long and extravagant Sheitels, flashy jewelry, stylish hats, perfume etc. are contrary to Tznius standards. Besides being the cause of other people’s sins.

My Dear Sisters!
Please Let us wear clothes that are befitting for Jewish Daughters. This will cause the Shechina to reside in our midst. This will bring many blessings upon ourselves, and ultimately bring the Geulah Sheleima בב”א

בזכות נשים צדקניות עתידין להגאל! The key to our salvation is in your hands!

Lets take advantage Now, and still bring the Geula this Chodesh Nissen, remember it's up to us Yiddishe women who dress Tznius to bring Moshiach