Marc Chagall, "Jew at Prayer"
Tzemach has been complaining alot recently about textual rituals, and Judaism being all "textual" and stuff. See Here, and Here, where he laments the "Overemphasis on the textual." Some would say that he fails to connect with the words, and he's certainly not the only one, hence he sees no need to repeat the same words over and over again. I'm not sure why davke the holiday of Pesach brings out this disregard for the textual; after all Rosh Hashonoh and Yom Kippur should have just the same affect, but that's the case. I see something else here, and I think the Alter Rebbe may have seen the same problem, at least in some instances, and to some extent. Other Chassidic groups like the Gerrer Chassidim, and other groups stemming from Kotzk seem to have taken the same road, slashing the Siddur and Machzor at almost every occassion. Is there a future "convert" to Ger in the making?
In some Kehillos all there is to Yom Tov is the text. They recite maarovis, (which is Yotzres at Maariv,)Yotzer at every Tefilloh, including Shacharis and Mussaf, and any other possible Yotzer ever invented. At the Seudos they have special Zemiros for every Yom Tov, and the list goes on. Some even have extra Yotzres to say that aren't even printed in the Machzor! If you tell people like that that there are those who say no Yotzres at all on any of the daled Parshiyos, or any of the Sholosh Regolim, or that you don't say Rus on Shavuous they'd say you're not Jewish....Imagine a guy who complains about texts davening in a shul where they say all that.... I can relate to it in a way, not being able to last in situations like that, at least I did in my adolescent years, but now I live and let live. I see how for many people the only connection they have to a time and moment is the text; they can only relate through reciting words and singing songs, and I respect and honor that.
IMHO the Alter Rebbe took a different road, and decided that this is not his way. In every way possible, and wherever possible, the AR cut and slashed text from his siddur. There is no Yotzer said on any of the Sholosh Regolim, no Yotzres said on any of the Daled Parshiyos, and little Zemiros said on Shabbos. At every occassion the AR saw fit to omit text, possibly because of the disconnect that many people have with the text. Later generations saw the omission of Selichos after Rosh Hashonoh, possibly for the same reason, as "Tshuveh should now be done BeMachshovoh, not BeDibur." Obviously we're not condoning the banning of "all textual prayer and embrace human interaction as the ultimate mitzvah," like Tzemach is, simply because that would be a knee-jerk reaction to a problem not facing all of us. Most shuls are pretty understanding when it comes to people not participating in all aspects of the textual obligations of davening. On any given Shabbos and Yom Tov you'll see plenty of people hanging out outside shuls while long texts are being dissected, and nobody condemns them.
48 comments:
For the record, both the Ari ha"K and the Baal Shem Tov ha"K both recited all Yotzros according to Mesoras Ashkenaz, in full.
"A future convert to Ger"? I don't think so.Ger focuses on lomdus and is ruled military style ( The Gerrer shtieblach in Poland used to have so-called "Kommandanten" / commanders in charge).Hardly the place for TA.
"Later generations saw the omission of Selichos after Rosh Hashonoh"
Actually, by the Alter Rebbe I believe no Selichos were said besides for the pre-RH ones. That means all other fast-day selichos were not said. I believe this was so til the Rebbe Rashab.
Blah, blah, blah.
Do you think anoybody is interested in your long megillah about the most boring subject in the world?
Atlas btw, has no connection to the text because he can't read or understand more than basic 'ivreh'.This is a classic Lubab problem, where you Lubabs mass produce ignorant BT's who just know about the Rebbe being nosi hadeyr. (Can't totally blame you for Atlas being the ignoramus that he is.He is a tough nut to crack a very obstinate, ignorant know-it-all.Classic story he told:He was once in a Snag yeshiva in B.P for a short while, so the magid shiur is trying to teach some basic Talmud lesson and Atlas decides that the 'right way' is for for him, Atlas, to first study shisho sidrei mishnayos on his own and then go to Talmud, remember this guy even today can hardly read Hebrew so 20 years ago he knew less than nothing!!He then badmouthed this yeshiva.What a putz)
So many interesting and tragic things have happened lately, but you won't blog about them.You won't comment about the gvir who Lubavitch wants to sue, not a word about the Empire State incident (this one is easy for you, you could've blamed the Snag yeshiva.....)etc
Sorry
You talk like a peasent on a subject that needs and has a torah shliemo, as if the alte rebbe wanted to make jewish life easier, the alte rebbe commands davening everyday for 1 and half hours, please stick to the issues you know best.
Admirer
Yoshe
Ger today is nisht vi amool. You can pretty much do as you please if you're past Yeshivah age.
As far as me not writing about news stories; Since when am I a news blog? The suing is a non-story, and the suicide? Have you not seen enough about it? I know nothing about it so why write about it? Go to Mentalblog if you must.
Baal haTanya probably departed from the minhag of Baal Shem Tov of saying yoitzer because probably he, as a true Litvak, held that yoitzer could be a hefsek. Another reason could have been that the davening back then took a really really long time as it was without any yoitzros, and if they were to say yoitzros they'd never make it home from shul.
But that doesn't change the fact that most Yoitzros are beautifully written בלשון צח and it is mekubal from Baal Shem Tov ha"K and Ari ha"K that R' Elozer haKolir הוא פנחס הוא אליהו ; those who say them find them, for the most part, a very warm and understandable piece of liturgy and those who don't say them still find the break useful for a whole number of things to do.
Kotzk is a different story. Ger today doesn't have much to do with Kotzk, which is probably a good thing. But if Kotzker Rebbe was to come to life, he'd probably puke and go right back to his grave if he saw what Ger has become.
The suing is a non story? Oh yeah?
The meshichistens pogroms were also a non-story, till you had to write about it! (from eye witness reports, btw, the meshichisten in 770 are now stronger than ever, so much for the outcry and the 'now, we''ll take are of them' blah, blah)
I don't get why you won't comment on the Empire State: Tt has All the trappings you nead and love:A guy from a Snag yeshiva, screwed over by Snags, who did not have the 'warmth' of chsidess, BLAH, BLAH.You can make the Snags sound bad and your Lubab sound so good.So it won't be the truth.....Since when is truth an obstacle for you and your Lubabs???
Tzig,
I thought you commanded much more respect for yourself.
You think the Alter Rebbe shortened the davening because he wanted to make it easy on anyone?
The davening is a sulom mutzov artzoh veroishoi beshomayim, a process of elevation for the soul which can only be accomplished through the Holy letters and formula of our great Tzadikim.
To go up a ladder unless you have propellers and wings you need to go up step by step, hence the words and different stages and parts to the davening.
Everything is oischeshboned to the letter. No different than the buttons you push on a keyboard to reach a web site. Every single character matters.
How about being religious without the restrictions and guidelines of shkia, netz, chatzois, pelag, half hour this way half hour thata way.
Just coasting through the day.
Ya. Now that would be my kind of religion. NOT.
you won't post my comment i see.nu,nu
I thought that the Mesorah was that רבי אליעזר הקליר was ר"א בן רשב"י not אליהו הנביא ז"ל?
a few posts from chabadtalk by masbir
First about not singing/saying any piyut, this is an essential aspect in the A.R. siddur , based on the ARIZAL's doctrine that he shunned all piyutim which were not by the Anshei Kneset Hagdoleh or the Tanoyim or Amoriiuim (this is mentioned in his classic 'Shar Hakvonos'), since post talmudic poets weren't keen on the secrets which is essential to intergrate something into a part of the Siddur. So all those Shabbos Zmeros were ommitted and Moez Tzur, (The Rebbe Reshab writes in letter (also mentioned in the remarkable diaries of RBSH, the Rebbes grandfather, just published) that he heard from a Old Chosid present at the A.R. "minion", and they did not say Slichos at fast days!). And the A.R. was a purist in this regard. The pyitum or prayer which are post Talmudic the are only those authored by ARIZL and his school, (besides one piyut "Adom Olam", not from Chazal, but rather from Geonim, but perhaps these Halachic Geonim (Rav Shriro Gaon)were (in contrast to Poets, as Reb Yehude Halevi Ebn Ezre etc.) indeed accepted, proof for that: the 'Vehu Rachum', on monday's and Thursday's were authored by 4 geonim who were relaese from hostage).
In the real siddur of the A.R. there is no akdomos.
[The real siddur is the siddur Torah Ohr, published by the Rebbe's maternal Grandfather, Hagoen Reb Avraham Dovid Lavat z"l in the years trm"z -t, (1887-9) based on the original siddurim edited and published by The A.R. himself in the year tks"g (1803), chelek alef. Harav Lavat was the last person known to see those early edition (no known edition of the the original siddurim are known to exist). Also siddur Dach is considerd real. Versus Tehilas Hashem which is a popularized edition with many additions which are not in the real siddur.]
In Lubavitch they didnt say akdomis when they read the Torah. (Although in many Chabad communities they did say it. And the Rebbes father used to say it. (the Rebbe read it privatly) Since there is debate if an omission by the AR means not saying it or not. different opinions exisits on many issues, as woman saying Shasani Kirtzono, saying nesiyim Nisan, saying Slichos on BHB etc.
Now the exception to this rule, are piyutim authored in Tzfas by the Kabbalist RMK and his school, or ARIZAL and his school. (since they knew the secrets of torah.) Lecho Dodi was authored in Tzfas by RMKS Rebbe (Reb Shlomo Alkabitz) and is considered by ARI (who was a diciple of RMK) authored according to the proper guidelines, and therefore incorporated in any siddur accordin ARIZAL.
If you have a machzor hamefurosh from Weingarten, he has a whole introduction on this.Tosfos held that the Kalir was a Tanna, others disagree.I think the Ibn Ezrah had some words about the grammar being incorrect .The Arizal was against any additions to davening that were not authored by sages who knew kaballah, lest the tefillahs not be accepted, therefore apparently the Alter Rebbe deleted all additions besides the Kalirs who the Ari held was a Tanna
Reb Chaim - it's all one, עיין הגלגולים .
Look Yoni moron, there are things that I post about but there are other things that you just make up in your sorry snag brain. Did you give me an faher exam moron? So shut up!
Chabadtalk keminhogom is posting half-truth or outright untruths. This is what Reb Chayim Vital writes in Pri Eitz Chayim :
מורי זלה"ה, לא היה חפץ בשום פזמון או פיוט מאותן שחברו האחרונים, רק מאותן שחברו הראשונים, כגון תפילת ר"ע, ור' ישמעאל ור"א בן ערך, ור"א הקליר ודוגמתן, שנתקנו על דרך האמת. אך אלו האחרונים שלא ידעו דרך קבלה, אינם יודעים מה שהם אומרים, וטועים בסדר דבורם, בלא ידיעה כלל, ולא היה אומרם כלל, ובפרט יגדל אלהים וכו', וגם וידוי אשמנו באומר ובפועל וכו' וכל שאר וידוים, כגון וידוי דר' ניסן אדנט"ל וכיוצא, לא היה רוצה לאומרם
...
בענין פיוטים שנהגו האשכנזים לומר, היה נוהג מורינו זלה"ה לומר, והיה אומר שאין בהם שום הפסק, כי הכל הולך אחר החיתום, והואיל ומסיימים מעין הברכה, לא הוי הפסק
...
But Baal haTanya departs from _confirmed_ Minhagei Ari ha"K on more then one occasion, in favor of Minhag Lita.
I SEE I'M DEALING WITH A BUNCH OF RETARDS HERE!!!
Where did I say that the Alter Rebbe thought it unimportant to daven?!
Where did I say that I knew exactly what he had in mind when he removed Yotzres?!
Where did I say that the AR wanted to make it easy?!
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!
Pay attention to what I wrote and then get back to me.
My late father A"H Bederech Halotzah always told the Americaner "yolden" in our shul in NH " vas vinziger men zogt is vos besser" especially in regards to the tefillos on the Yamim Noraim.And I assume that this is in accord with his Chabad messorah from Kurenitz.
The late Belzer Rav rav Aron ZT"L in Belz heard his chazzan davening along time and turned about and said "vaz balemoochet er epes"
Finally I rarely paid attention to the "supplementaty prayers" many Jews say on Yuma D[pagra and such. Since my move to WH anbout 20 years ago I see the beauty in some of these prayers for Purim and Shabbes Hagadol for example. They are absolutely impresive and educate you in the inner nature of the holiday .
ATTN YONI:
Please tell me how many Jews went from being Chassidic(of any kind),
to being a snag --
and then tell me how many Jews went from being snaggy to being Chassidic?
(for some odd reason, i feel it's gonna be hard for u to answer my questions).
Duke
isn't that why the Chazen says MiSoyd, so that we ask Reshus to make that Hefsek? Besides, others managed to get around that problem, by simply saying it after Chazoras Hashat"z.
At every occassion the AR saw fit to omit text, possibly because of the disconnect that many people have with the text. Later generations saw the omission of Selichos after Rosh Hashonoh, possibly for the same reason
those are YOUR words.
you not me:
Right, disconnect, meaning it has no bearing on people. Nowhere did I say he meant to make it EASY for them, rather he focused more on emphasizing the daily davening, and more on the learning. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Check out the beginning of the Shaar Hakeilel where Rav Lavut addresses the issue of the omitted parts of the prayer and suggests that the AR wanted to leave room for local minhag and only included in his siddur that which is common to all nuschoeis. In other words - add to your heart's content.
The Rebbe Rashab, in the letter to the Rav Lavut (printed in the Torah Ohr siddur), disagrees and says that whatever the AR did not include in the siddur is not to be said.
interesting quote from the R yaakov emdn siddur by akdomus 'if there is such a suspicion this is applicable to the ashkenazim who tend to make interruptions in brochos and readings, every smoth path they have spoiled with the stones of their piyutim'
Yoni
let me get this straight: You're attacking me for holding back and not writing about a guy from a Snag Yeshivah who committed suicide?
huh?!
I'm attacking you for being a boring toad.
I was facetiously 'trying' to help you out in writing a post about how terrible the Snags are and how wonderful Lubabs are and how he would've been found salvation had he 'known Lubab'
It was meant as a cynical half joke, even I did not think that you'd use this tragedy to milk out a Lubab victory point.
Btw, I'm going to use this platform to call TZEMACH ATLAS a MORON!!!
Tzemach, I knew you only could read basic Hebrew, but even English you can't write??I could not make heads or tails of your comment against me.Whatever.
Your blog can be interesting at times,not when you forget your meds and not when you prove again and again what an obstinate know-it-all ignoramus you are.Friend, we spent years if yeshiva and we still know diddly, do you think your short,non serious Lubab indoctrination leaves you with the ability to criticize that what you can't even read???
On the AR sidur, there is 2 nu seforim more updated,
Hasidur (Hiechel Menachem Monsey)
Sidur Ribeini... (Raskin London) they are both good work on that subject.
Yoni, in real life you may have some interesting qualities, but here you have never written anything as eloquent as Tzemach. Rehashing tired old dogma of amaratzus isn't going anywhere.
To the Duke,
Nobody claims that the AR is 100% Ari Zal, he had his halachic issues that he couldnt change even for the Besht or the Ari. That makes his siddur the magnificent siddur that it is, you feel you walk on solid grounds. The Komarner in his own style attacks the AR for ommitting Boruch hashem leolom, he claims the baal shem said it,eventough the AR was more in to be a chosid of the Magid rather then the Besht as the issue of Gebrokts that started in the Magids school
Anonymous - actually, the Shaar Bletter of all siddurim benusach Lubavich are referencing Ari ha"K, and many of those who daven that nusach insist that it is takeh the Nusach of Ari ha"K, that is until they are shown the abovementioned Pri Etz Chayim. Why can't it be called what it is - Nusach of Baal haTanya ?
Not sure what you mean by "solid grounds"; siddurim contain nusach of tefila, not piskei dinim. Is omission of zemiros shabbos indicative of halachic magnificiency ?
For the record, Baal HaTanya was a Chosid of Maggid and then Karlin and Horodenko, prior to accepting rebbistve. He was never in Baal Shem Tov's hoif.
Al Pi Nusach HoAri means that it's based on Nusach HoAri. The AR used many different Siddurim including several Sidurrei HoAri, to compile his own Siddur. He did not claim to be Mamesh the Nusach that the Ari davened.
How can a nusach that goes beferush against writings of Ari be called "Al Pi Nusach Ari" ? And back to the original question, what is the source or a reason for omission of Yoitzeros from haKolir, given that Ari z"l insisted on saying them ?
It's called "based in part" in English, duke. Calm down. To translate for interesting people like you, it would "those tefilos that are incorporated in this Siddur are based on the Nusach of the Ari, not that all of his tefilos are included."
Aderabe, do explain; for example, Kisvei Ari z"l write, numerously, that in Kidush there be 70 words, 35 for Veyechulu and 35 for the Brocho. Which is the way it is in chasidishe kreyzen. In siddurim based on Alter Rebbe's nusach, it is not so, but the nusach brought is nusach haGr"a. So why not write on the Shaar Blatt "Al Pi Nusach haGr"a vehaAr"i " ? Marketing reasons, I guess ...
As I said, this is nitpicking. Modify the disclaimer "Al Pi" to suit your feelings, that's what it is there for.
to the duke
please dont attach the AR to karlin
Dear Duke
before you start accusing and throwing facts you should learn in depth the works of the Shaar Hakolel on the AR sidur, he explains every piece of the sidur in length, how everything is consistent with the Arizal and if there is no Arizal on that part he followed earlier Mekubilim from Rishonim era. He explains the Kidush of the AR that it is also consitent with the AR since certain words he is not counting and he brings some shitos on that subject.
Just a point about piuytim. It's obvious that the Arizal didn’t say all the piyutim which were authored by the late composers as recorded by RCV that he was against all late works. On the other hand there is one exception the works of Kalir who the Arizal identifies with Reb Elozer b"r Shimon. When it’s stated that Arizal said piyutim of the Ashknzaim, it obviously means only piyutim of Kalir (Otherwise you have a major contradiction) which is the foundation of piyutei Ashknaz.
Well according the above, the nusach of Rabbeinu Hazakan is indeed adhering to the princples of Arizal, since all the Yotzros are not from Kalir (for example yotzros of Shabaos Hagodel are from Reb Yosef Elem etc) the exception are piyutei Tal and Geshem. Hoshanos, and basic piyutim from Yomim Norioim, which are indeed said in Chabad. So Dukes claims, in regards to piyutim, are baseless.
In general I shall state, that many Chasidic courts didn’t say piyut. Zidotchov the source of Komarna didn’t say either for the same reason as explained above.
It also obvious that Arizal didnt say Boruch hashem leolom. since he was in Eretz Yisroel.
Anonymous # 1 - the documents from Yud Tes Kislev archive (1798-1800) unequivocally refer to the Alter Rebbe as a "Head of Karlins". In a letter from Yud Ches Kislev - a day before that Yud Test Kislev - Alter Rebbe writes that shall anything ch'v happen to him, everyone is to follow R' Chayka of Amdur and R' Shomo of Karlin for all inyonim.
Anonymous # 2 - is this work available online ?
Anonymous # 3 - please see the quote from RCV brought above. haKolir is not the only "exception". Ari z"l said whatever was being said in the Ashkenazi shul, all piutim that stemmed from the "Rishonim". As did Baal Shem Tov ha"K - and both are brought down by R' Isaac of Komarno as a compelling reason to say all the yotzros - at least those from the Arba Parshiyos.
Dear Duke
#1 You are daydreaming there is no such letter ftom the AR about Karlin and Amdud, the reason they were called karliners is a technical term for a chosid in that region,
#3 please give me a precise source for the Komarner, I recall that he only talks about Boruch Hashem Lolam..
Can you put three words together without having to lie and fabricate ? Look in the Cherson Geniza #279, the letter says precisely that.
Karliner as "technical term for a chosid" as of 1798 is an even more ridiculous thing to say, especially given the context and the fact that Reb Shlomo and R' Aron haGodol are referenced all over the protocols as well. It is a simple fact that Alter Rebbe was a part of Karlin-Stolin during at least some of those days; why is there a sudden need to become defensive and to falsify reality - is being a "Karliner" of 200 year old stock such a bad thing ?
Duke, you are taking your conclusions too far. That doesn't fit with anything else that we know of those times. If anything, the AR would be called a Horodoker. I am pretty sure the Karliner was because they had become the most known due to the excesses of Reb Aharon, who the AR defended (not his behavior, but that he shouldn't be expelled from the Chevraya). Perhaps the accusations specifically mentioned Karliner as well, and the AR responded in kind, or the Russian translator assumed that. Don't create a false affinity that will only dilute the true affinity that did exist.
Hmmm, is correct, like every anti zionist is called a satmarer, even if satmar is excluding them by disasociating them thru the media and kol kories, but the label satmar still sticks, are you getting it?
Hmmm,
Have you actually seen said letter in the genizah and protocols from both arrests ? Obviously, AR was not your stock Karliner chosid, but from both sources it is quite clear that he was a part of the Chaburah, basically a head of it. Can you imagine what kind of people those were ? Most of them probably saw both the Maggid and the Baal Shem Tov ha'K; the split amongst chassidim wasn't as prononced yet except geographically and as I understand it, in those days being a chosid simply meant having Shaychus to a Tzaddik, and the nearby Tzaddik was R' Aaron haGodol - who was niftar some 30 years before the first arrest, who was pretty much the "pioneer of hasidism in Lithuania".
Do take a look at the letter, and the one after it - 25 Kislev, from R' Chaykel of Hamdur to R' Osher of Stolin announcing that "Yedid Nafshi haRav haGoen haKodosh Meor haGolah Mo'H Shneur Zalman n'y yotzo chofshi memaasar". Frankly, I personally have issues with this letter that I am trying to settle, but on the face of it, it is signed by the AR and was republished by Kehos with all implications and endorsements.
Please stop with your psuedo intelegence veneer, your attack on the AR siddur was plain dumb, you never even heard from a sefer Shaar Hakolel,if you have a problem with the genizah then why quote it? you started out quoting the archives of the arrest I tought you meant Mondshines Kerem Chabad and then you end up with the geniza , that letter in particular,is full of holes, the Karliner passed away years earlier then the arrest, in year 5552, and the Amdoder passed away even earlier in 5547, even in chabad circles by historians as Rabbi Levin it is not quoted, zie mir gezund, you seem like a confused zombie.Let Hirshel take care on you he is blessed with that talent.
I'm sori for insulting ur entelegens. Will try not to do so. I know that both of them were not amongst the living; both passed away quite a few years before Liader's arrests. It's trivial. But saying so would mean that שקר מוחלט was printed בהסכמת נביא מופסק.
עטװאַס שטימט ניט
Must be, the handy Kehosnikes who managed to squeeze truthitruth even into a siddur's shaar blatt, who knows where else that hand was.
As to your idiotic kneejerk about Shaar haKolel, I asked if it's posted anywhere online - since the busybees at otzar and other site don't seem to have it. Sorry if it gave you so much rash. As Berl above said though, wasn't R' Lavut's yishuv thrown out by Rashab ? Not that there can be a plausible yishuv against zemiros Shabbos or Yotzer. "Disconnect that many people have" with what, Menuchah Vesimchah Or Layehudim ?
Nor was there any attack on AR's or any other siddur - not that any Siddurim were printed during his lifetime. Just don't represent them as something they are not, and don't forge their words.
hatiposh oimed b'tipshiso
Ten Letipesh Veyitapesh Od.
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