יהושע בן נון'ס kever had a picture of the sun on it
"I saw this Rashi in Yeoshua, that on His tomb there was picture of the sun, to show that whoever is buried in this grave stopped the sun. Pretty shocking, since the sun is the ultimate avoda zorah...."
Berel their is a discussion in the achronim if you can put pictures of the sun or stars in shuls, since its the real avoda zora. Its not that simple that you put it in a holy place and it becomes kosher.. Its a big sugya..
we have to know the source of Rashi, is it a Gemorah? or a Midrash? Rashi definitely used a source, its not ruach hakodesh that he used. The Yalkut Shimoni is the right sefer for that, but I dont have it in front of me
what I am saying, is THIS picture of the sun is the ultimate UNPICTUE - it commemorates an event that shows that the sun IS NOT an independent power of any kind.
Berl "וכן אסור לצור דמות חמה ולבנה כוכבים מזלות ומלאכים שנאמר לא תעשון אתי לא תעשון כדמות שמשיי המשמשין לפני במרום ואפילו על הלוח" Rambam Avoda Zora perek 3, if you read well this halacha and the halacha before, you see that it is prohibited to draw or carve the Sun, even with no intention of Avoda Zora. Maybe Rashi has a different opinion
tibi, you are funny trying to discuss issues like these with lubavitchers.They have millions of their pics EVERYWHERE.Including a larger than life portrait,(literally, btw.It's like 6 feet tall)in the oholei tora bes medresh in the back. What do they know about avoideh zureh and lo saaseh lecho kol pesel??
"The poskim wonder why it was permitted to place a picture of the sun on Yehoshua's grave? After all, in the Aseres Hadibros it says, “Lo sa'ase l'cha fesel v'chol t'muna asher bashamayim mima'a'l” - you can not make an image or a picture of that which is in the heavens”
The Tzitz Eliezer (9) offers the following possible reasons why this was permitted:
1) Some permit one to make an image of the sun if it is sunken into a surface and not raised. 2) Rashi says they “stood' a picture of the sun – it sounds like they did not make it. 3) The Yalkut Gershuni says that if it is clear that the picture is not for purposes of serving or treating the image like a god then it is permitted. 4) It is possible that they put a piece of “cheres”, earthenware, on Yehoshua's grave (see Rashi to Shoftim 2, 6) . We find that at times the sun is referred to as “cheres”."
cant find source for rashi but rashi in shoftim says רש"י שופטים פרק ב פסוק ט בתמנת חרס - על שם שהעמידו תמונת חרס על קברו, כלומר חבל על אדם שהעמיד החמה ומוטל בקבר maybe wrong טעות הדפוס in rashi Yehoshua? Anyway its hard to see how Rashi got תמונת חמה from תמנת סרח ליטווישער יונגערמאן
Fintru I am not in a bashing mood today, but if you diligently see the loshan horambam, you will see the words Malochim, but not photos of people. Maybe if chabad believes the Rebbe was a Malach it would be a problem. But I thing the chasidic seforim claim that nishmas yisroel is bigger then Malochim Veim Shogisi Hashem Yechaper
Fintru "The Yalkut Gershuni says that if it is clear that the picture is not for purposes of serving or treating the image like a god then it is permitted." the rambam writes the Meshamshiem (sun or malochim)have specific halochas, and are prohibited even with no Avoda zora intentions.
While on the topic -- the Nelcho b'orchosov compilation (5756) of newly-published maynos etc from the LR, has the Rebbe's revisions on the original draft of Tzivos Hashem logo. They had a sun and rays under the "hei", and a moon under the "tzadi" (presumably, that kids are soldiers in hashem's army for the full 24 hour day).
The rebbe commented to remove the sun and rays: ציור השמש וקרני' (שבתוך הה"א) - הוא בדיוק דגל יאפאן וצבא שלה.
Not commenting on the lo saaseh, but that it can merely be misconstrued. But then again, there's poskim who only saw an engraved item is an issue
you are all comenting on it, did it ever crosse your mind that the people who did it knew halocho (almost) as much as you? Yes even Rash"i could know more than you...
Ben Eliezer The discussion of carved is only of a portrait of a person, but the sun is Osser even a drawing, this is what it looks like from the Ravad and the Rambam
Yossi According to nigleh its not ossur to make a picture of a person. Reb Yonasan Eibshutz is from the anti pictures camp, and he is always quoted, but his reasons are kabalistic, not halachic.
Rav Yosuf Kafiah, writes in his commetery on the Sefer Hayad, perek 3, that this sugya is a tough one, called Sugya Amuma. its very hard to get to the sources where the Rambam build up this halochas. He quotes a Persh Hamishneh of the Rambam (Avoda Zorah 3-3)that the prohibited pictures of the sun and the moon, was never intended to a simple photo of a circle as the sun, or a half a circle as the moon. It all meant graphics of the Telasam tribe, that designated special graphical drawings for all the celestial features. The Rambam is explaining it in details, it has to be checked out. Its my asumption that on the tombstone of Yehushua, there was only the standard drawing of the laymens view of the sun.
And let's not forget that in many Shules they won't allow certain images, and yet those images were on the Diglei HaMidbar, and treyf ones as well (e.g. Shevet Dan and the snake!)
23 comments:
היש ביטול ע"ז גדול מזה?
so is their an explanation?
Berel
their is a discussion in the achronim if you can put pictures of the sun or stars in shuls, since its the real avoda zora.
Its not that simple that you put it in a holy place and it becomes kosher..
Its a big sugya..
we have to know the source of Rashi, is it a Gemorah? or a Midrash?
Rashi definitely used a source, its not ruach hakodesh that he used.
The Yalkut Shimoni is the right sefer for that, but I dont have it in front of me
so if you put it in a holy place it does become Mutar or it doesn't? Also is it possible to give the Mekoros for the discussion?
what I am saying, is THIS picture of the sun is the ultimate UNPICTUE - it commemorates an event that shows that the sun IS NOT an independent power of any kind.
Efraim
Minog Avosieni Beyodaini of Monsey vol 2, covers alot of ground on this matter, but does not mention this Rashi,
Berl
"וכן אסור לצור דמות חמה ולבנה כוכבים מזלות ומלאכים שנאמר לא תעשון אתי לא תעשון כדמות שמשיי המשמשין לפני במרום ואפילו על הלוח"
Rambam Avoda Zora perek 3,
if you read well this halacha and the halacha before, you see that it is prohibited to draw or carve the Sun, even with no intention of Avoda Zora.
Maybe Rashi has a different opinion
tibi,
you are funny trying to discuss issues like these with lubavitchers.They have millions of their pics EVERYWHERE.Including a larger than life portrait,(literally, btw.It's like 6 feet tall)in the oholei tora bes medresh in the back.
What do they know about avoideh zureh and lo saaseh lecho kol pesel??
The following is from a non lubavitch site
"The poskim wonder why it was permitted to place a picture of the sun on Yehoshua's grave? After all, in the Aseres Hadibros it says, “Lo sa'ase l'cha fesel v'chol t'muna asher bashamayim mima'a'l” - you can not make an image or a picture of that which is in the heavens”
The Tzitz Eliezer (9) offers the following possible reasons why this was permitted:
1) Some permit one to make an image of the sun if it is sunken into a surface and not raised.
2) Rashi says they “stood' a picture of the sun – it sounds like they did not make it.
3) The Yalkut Gershuni says that if it is clear that the picture is not for purposes of serving or treating the image like a god then it is permitted.
4) It is possible that they put a piece of “cheres”, earthenware, on Yehoshua's grave (see Rashi to Shoftim 2, 6) . We find that at times the sun is referred to as “cheres”."
I know Berel ,ch, won't read non lubab sources so i forewarned him
cant find source for rashi but rashi in shoftim says
רש"י שופטים פרק ב פסוק ט
בתמנת חרס - על שם שהעמידו תמונת חרס על קברו, כלומר חבל על אדם שהעמיד החמה ומוטל בקבר
maybe wrong טעות הדפוס in rashi Yehoshua? Anyway its hard to see how Rashi got תמונת חמה from תמנת סרח
ליטווישער יונגערמאן
Fintru
I am not in a bashing mood today, but if you diligently see the loshan horambam, you will see the words Malochim, but not photos of people.
Maybe if chabad believes the Rebbe was a Malach it would be a problem. But
I thing the chasidic seforim claim that nishmas yisroel is bigger then Malochim
Veim Shogisi Hashem Yechaper
Fintru
"The Yalkut Gershuni says that if it is clear that the picture is not for purposes of serving or treating the image like a god then it is permitted."
the rambam writes the Meshamshiem (sun or malochim)have specific halochas, and are prohibited even with no Avoda zora intentions.
Tibi,
What is the picture of a malach?
What does a malach look like?
And are you allowed to make pics of people?
If the sun was indeed the "ultimate avoda zorah", it would be ossur behano'o.
While on the topic -- the Nelcho b'orchosov compilation (5756) of newly-published maynos etc from the LR,
has the Rebbe's revisions on the original draft of Tzivos Hashem logo. They had a sun and rays under the "hei", and a moon under the "tzadi" (presumably, that kids are soldiers in hashem's army for the full 24 hour day).
The rebbe commented to remove the sun and rays:
ציור השמש וקרני' (שבתוך הה"א) - הוא בדיוק דגל יאפאן וצבא שלה.
Not commenting on the lo saaseh, but that it can merely be misconstrued. But then again, there's poskim who only saw an engraved item is an issue
you are all comenting on it, did it ever crosse your mind that the people who did it knew halocho (almost) as much as you?
Yes even Rash"i could know more than you...
Ben Eliezer
The discussion of carved is only of a portrait of a person, but the sun is Osser even a drawing, this is what it looks like from the Ravad and the Rambam
Yossi
According to nigleh its not ossur to make a picture of a person.
Reb Yonasan Eibshutz is from the anti pictures camp, and he is always quoted, but his reasons are kabalistic, not halachic.
Rav Yosuf Kafiah, writes in his commetery on the Sefer Hayad, perek 3, that this sugya is a tough one, called Sugya Amuma. its very hard to get to the sources where the Rambam build up this halochas.
He quotes a Persh Hamishneh of the Rambam (Avoda Zorah 3-3)that the prohibited pictures of the sun and the moon, was never intended to a simple photo of a circle as the sun, or a half a circle as the moon.
It all meant graphics of the Telasam tribe, that designated special graphical drawings for all the celestial features.
The Rambam is explaining it in details, it has to be checked out.
Its my asumption that on the tombstone of Yehushua, there was only the standard drawing of the laymens view of the sun.
see שו"ת רב פעלים חלק ד יו"ד סימן י who quotes מהר"ח פלאג"י in רוח חיים אות קמ"א
as for the connecyion between חרסand חמה please see איוב פרק ט' ז
And let's not forget that in many Shules they won't allow certain images, and yet those images were on the Diglei HaMidbar, and treyf ones as well (e.g. Shevet Dan and the snake!)
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