Sunday, June 19, 2005

Choose carefully, no, not you


I've seen recently where the discussion turns to חכמים הזהרו בדבריכם. The geniuses who choose the verse also decide to whom and where to apply it. So, if some ignoramus boor who just recently opened a Tehillim or any other Sefer decides to translate some Posuk like בני בכורי ישראל, to mean that Hashem ח"ו etc. The Tehillim will not be blamed, obviously, for the boor's obvious mistake. If this guy "runs with it" and makes this into some kind of movement, like has been done in the past, the Tehillim will still not be blamed.

The problem and the distinctions arise when other works and words are the sources for these people to misconstrue, like someone you already don't like, so you blame him for not being careful. For example, a previous post discusses a wonder of nature called "Neturei Karta", with it's many chapters and branches. These specimens, as much as you may not like it, do the dirty work for a large part of the zealot community, and are defended and supported. Of course, they'll be condemned in the open and will be distanced from any other political group, but they will be supported financially and unofficially. I myself have been to many Simchas where these individuals have shown up, and they're quite friendly with the locals in some Brooklyn neighborhoods.

You may ask "Where's the problem with that", and whose words are they distorting?
They distort little known and irrelevant quotes, Midroshim, Gemorres, etc. to defend what they preach, namely words of the previous Satmar Rov, z"l. They have former Talmidim of the Satmar Rov as their Rabbinic endorsers, albeit from a distance. They quote him at every opportunity, as well as many others.

So, why weren't those Rabbonim more careful with their words, foreseeing what lunatics like that could do with them? Did they not have the foresight that they had in other areas, or so is claimed about them. Most of the followers have axes to grind, like Beck, or have no Mesorah to follow, like the guy from Vienna or Weiss, or other converts and newly religious who are the mainstays of these organizations.They are basically the same types of people who make up the fringes of groups like Lubavitch, Breslov etc, yet they get a free ride as far as their sources go, whereas the Lubavitchers don't. "They should've foreseen this" is what the zealots say.

I foresee a double standard, what about you?

58 comments:

Kurenitzer said...

Frankly, this blog is a just a bit confusing.
Since I am not an insider in either Lubavitch or Satmar I really do not know if in absolute the Lubavitcher condemnations of the extreme Messianists amongst them are any more meaningful then the condemnatiopns of the Satmar or CRC of the NK. I just do not know.
My Satmar friends do not like my NK friends and yes I have friends in both camps. One NK man I know was almost thrown out of a Satmat car on a freeway several years ago.But I suspect many members of Yitav lev are silent partners with the SM.
Indeed the yeshiva world and the American Aguda do give the NK and their silent partners a free ride they do not give Chabad.
The Yated prints pictures of the 2 brothers who are say openly mosai YA musu hazekainim ha-elu but unlike the Aaronic sons they are also fighting amongst themselves for the "Babes yerusha". And ve lo od lakewood Yeshiva and its dean gives them lots of kavod.
But alas, Lubavitch can hardly be the one to take the leadership in fighting the NK.
Yes the Rebbe could and did , but Lubavitch of today is so split, so devoid of recognized spiritual leadership and itself suspect in some instances of ..., that it must fall on the wolrd of the Yeshivos and Rabbi Perlow to take the lead.

malach said...

Tzig,
I can't believe it!!! Are you actually saying that your Rebbe should have been more careful in the words he chose, so as not to cause people to say he never died or that hihe is G-d, chas vesholom???
(There is hope, if a krummer Chabadsker managed to understand this, even though he is now 'harping' on the miniscule Neturei Karta minnions, to avoid 'admitting' that his rebbe was mistaken)
Tzig, keep it up!

Hirshel Tzig said...

Man, you're dillusional, you see what you want to and ignore the points.

malach said...

What's your point?That Neturei Karta gets support from Satmar?Agreed, partially.
Now, lets get to Lubavitch,ok?
Meshichist/Elokisten, support themselves based on words of the Rebbe.In other words the Rebbe was wrong when he said stuff which was so easily understood as saying he is a deity.
Yeah, but get a Chabadsker to agree with anything.....................
Bottom line:There is one address for the meshugassen/elokisten etc in Lubavitch!
Hint:This place of (avodo zoro)worship has had many copies built worldwide.A couple in ISRAEL,Milano,Melbourne.Teffilin bags etc......Can anyone guess the address?.Tzig will award a large, Yechi Boreinu kappel to the correct answer

avremel said...

Will you agree that V'yoel Moshe is responsible for NK being Rodfim?

malach said...

I will agree that the Satmar Rov zatz'll was partially to blame for the NK.I don't see them as 'rodfim' for the most part, either.The Neturei Kartah that I have known run a very good yeshiva in Yerusholayim and are not in the news.Beck, Friedman, the nut from Washington heights are a different story, though calling them rodfim is a stretch.

malach said...

Now.Who is responsible for the Elokisten/Meshichisten? Rav Shach?
Who was not careful with words such as :'ah rebbe is atzmus umahus vos hot zech areingeshtelt in a guf'? Who said about a man long deceased: 'Meh kehn em zen meet fleishigeh oigen'?
Answers pleaseeeeee.

Hirshel Tzig said...

of course it's a stretch, they'e not Lubavitchers, they can do no wrong.

Anonymous said...

You'll excuse me, but the Torah is to blame for Christianity, if not for verses from Tanach that were misinterpreted there would be no Christianity.

malach said...

Tzig:You won't answer who is to blame for the Volpes/Elokisten/Meshichisten.You know the answer,though.

Anonymous said...

Volpe=Kol Torah
Elokisten=Frenken/BT's
Meshichisten=Frenken/BT's

Kurenitzer said...

The new breed of NK who have adopted the policy of Kum vease in supporting a Palstinian state are in the geder of rodef.
The old NK of Blau, Katzenelboggen, Weisfish etc are not they just refused to recognize the Memsheles hakofrim.
But Beck and his buddies are playing into the hands of the palestnian murderers.

Kurenitzer said...

Some sectors of the MO world and yeshiva world have on going discussions of the kashruth properties of Lubavitcher hashgocha.
Yet the same groups never discuss the kashruth qualities of the CRC and other Right wing rabbonim who quietly endorse the NK.The Ou seems to love displaying its support from people like the irbater and other ultra charedi rabbis.All the while DER YID blasts the MO world week after week. Yes only Lubavitch is held accountable .
When I bring it up , I am greeted with a shrug.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Kurenitzer
I must tell you, that although we disagree on occassion, I am amazed by your honesty and objectivity. We can all learn from you. It must be the Chassidishe Blut.

Anonymous said...

Well, for one thing they're probably afraid of the Satmarer goons who are close by now, in Queens etc.

Tzemach Atlas said...

To compare Lubavitcher heresy to NK is not only boring but idiotic.

Anonymous said...

and who died and made you the expert on heresy, TA?
(or Russian lineage or renaissance art for that matter)

Hirshel Tzig said...

TA
Read the post. I'm not comparing anything. I'm talking about חכמים הזהרו בדבריכם

Tzemach Atlas said...

I reread the post and again I find that the question is tortured. As I hope you know as well that these issues are more nuanced that you want them to be.

Tzemach Atlas said...

i also think that publishing pictures of y-ass-ir is in bad taste.

Kurenitzer said...

I think it is time that someone raised the issue of the NK and their silent partners.
Dr. Berger and others are busy talking about disqualifying Lubavitch kashruth , but the CRC - NK - Yitav lev axis is ignored.
I only know of 1 strong Hungarian condemnation of Beck and co that of the Munkatcher rebbe in BP. Otherwise the conemnations are just to keep their kashrus business in order.
If one reads HEAVY SAND by Anatoli Ribakoff (sic) one sees what shtetel Jews did to rodfim even in modern times.I am by no means imploring suggesting or advocating these tactics, but a economic boycott might not be a bad idea.
The Mo community can not read Yiddish and is not aware of the rubbish printed weekly in DER YID BLATT etc against Israeli Jews against the west bank people (ad kedai kach that it mocked their beards and peyoth ala the maskilim)and everything sacred to the MO community (derech halimud )etc)

Hirshel Tzig said...

It did almost happen approx. 2 years ago, when they marched on Shabbos in Washington with all the Arab groups. They quickly disassociated themselves from NK when they smelled a boycott and the OU backed off.

a guy said...

TA, you of all people talk about poor taste?

Anonymous said...

I don't understand why going to palastinians is a rodef , if you are mekabel the gezeires hashem of gules, that shows that hashem hu elokim. its that simple.

Hirshel Tzig said...

but yet you don't believe the words you wrote. Otherwise you'd put your name to it.

Besides, is "massering" to the government on your neighbor that he's cheating on his taxes a Mesirah, after all it's being Mekabel Ol Golus, no?

does it apply in Williamsburg too, or only in Israel?

Anonymous said...

I see the people on this blog understand the remifications of a buycut,and the logic not to bite the hand that feeds you ,now you all will realize that promoting hashems torah can not be financed by those who do believe in its contents, lubavitch is 95 percent dependent on non frum jews therefor they will slowly endup in the fold of their beneficiaries, satmer is 95 percent (for the last 50 years) independendent of the non frum world so the chances are better to survive any buycut (the lubavitch treif fressers don't count

theantiyoilie said...

buycut? wich is it? buy or cut?

Yoily Kukush said...

satmarer lekkers toilet shmekkers.

Hirshel Tzig said...

98% of Satmarer money is Gneivah Gzeilah Oino'oh, etc,

According to the Rebbe Reb Elimelech zt"l no good can come out that, as a matter of fact, You're guaranteed to have rotten children. so there go Satmar's chances for survival.

malach said...

Tzig:Interesting statistic you quote:98% of Satmar money is gneivah etc. And how would you know???You work for the .I.R.S?The Feds?
I know one thing:Lubavitch is so busy shnorringt that they never take care of their own poor people in Crown Heights.They have to come to Williamsburg to be helped

Kurenitzer said...

1. In re Satmar being financially independent "gey derzehl dos die boben " How about Zalman Leib's recent schnor trip to the 5 towns which included meeting rabbi Flaum of the White shul a RIETS musmach and shaking his hand . And other such meetings showing how (in)dependent Satmar if for Lokshen . And this trip received wide spread phot coverage, men shemt zich nit zu reden mit Mizrachistin .Other recent schnorr trips the brand new Kashoier "rebbe" off schnorring in Beverley Hills amongst Zikne chaside satmar , Aron's trip last year to the Chasedei Staten island vechuli.
2. Yes we are in Golus , but brother , Hashem did not command us to help the nazis exterminate us, Mordechai did not go to Haman and offer help in his per project.
There were no Jews in tach VeTat who went to Chmile and offered to kill their fellow Jews or donate money to his cause.
This friend is not Yiddishkeit, If someone comes to kill Jews CHAZAL tell us how to react and no one says help the killers.

Hirshel Tzig said...

go to www.memritv.org

this guy Weiss from NK is being interviewed on Lebanese TV, and in Yeshivah accent tells them all his Boich Svores

malach said...

Kurentitzer, you are way off in describing Satmars finances.Almost every cent is from Satmar chassidim.Just check out Der Yid or Der Blatt to see who their donors are.Even the 'modern' money is from Satmar affiliated people, like Barry Weiss's brother from L.A, who was Hungarian and a talmid.
Mixing up Kasho and Satmar is apples and oranges.
I'm surprised that something which is so factually incorrect comes out of your pen.

Anonymous said...

Satmar money is blood money.

Gneivah money. Retzichah money.

malaCH said...

Why don't you say it out loud?
SATMAR=NAZIS
lUBAVITCH=THE TRUE JEWS.
Oy Lubabs, you have fallen so low.

avremel said...

לא מהם ולא מממונם!
I once heard from an ex-Satmarer (not a Lubavitcher)as follows:

Satmar is very good at Chesed like Bikur Cholim, but first they'll break your bones, then they'll come offer you all the money in the world.

bpunbound said...

er, pardon my intruding with a fact, but wasn't that Hertz Frankel being led away in cuffs a few years back for "misdirecting" city funds to yetev lev coffers?

a guy said...

bp
don't you know?
they're a bunch of anti-semites!
and besides, it was for a good cause.

malach said...

For all those wondering about the 'famous' Chabadsker ahavas yisroel:1)It applies, primarily to non religous Jews,preferably, with lots of cash.If they are famous that's an additional plus 2)Only religous jews that agree with Chabad that the Rebbe is moshiach 3)If you are a crazy settler,preferably a Cahane supporter.
All others.................................you know where you can go!

Anonymous said...

What can I say Malach, it's not your fault, it must've been a lack of oxygen at birth. At least you didn't come to Lubavitch, we have enough of those.

n said...

Fellas, you are out of line. This is such loshan hora. Satmer gelt is all gotten by gneiva?! It's shocking hear lubav's talk like this, even in a nameless, faceless environment.
1) governmental aid..Satmar is extremely proficient and saavy in using the system. The use of aid has become an industry/institution and the knowledge to maximize benefit is shared as a chessed. LUbavitcher's in crown heights use it too, but to a lesser extent for a lot of reasons, mnostly having to do with a non homogenous society, transientness of residents, more of an ethic that decries this. Nevertheless, if satmar ran a seminar in crown heights and openned up more eyes and showed how easy it is everyone would be in the wic line for their cheese and crackers.....
2) The same measure of determination, risk taking, and vision that a lubavitcher has for shlichus, a satmar has for pursuing business... Satmar is therefore making lots of legitimate money...and on the whole doing great things for their community. paying taxes is another topic but it is relative to whoever makes money..if more lubavs were making more money they too would be pushing the grey area in filing taxes..talk to an accountant or two...this is a cross cultural phenom.
Satmar businessmen i must tell you are a pretty good bunch of guys on the whole. As a group i like working with them....
3) this crc issue two years ago...satmar was certainly agaisnt this show of support in washington, but their public verboseness in the media created such a backlash for the crc that they swallowed everything they said with radio broadcasts distancing and clarifing(pitiful apolgetics) for the sake of a $. otherwise the crc would have folded...

Anonymous said...

wow N!

bpunbound said...

n,

Was it a someone raised in a chabad home that pulled off the biggest insurance fraud in US history and now awaits a few hundred consecutive lifetime sentences in the slammer? Is that what you call "pushing the grey area"?

n said...

bpun,
i don't understand you. one person makes a problem and you conclude that his whole group is treif. silly. and to boot that means your entire group is better or gets a pat on the back or...i think you caught the same virus that afflicts malach soemtimes

a guy said...

now,now people. we each have our unique weaknesses. Satmar's is the love of money and the hate of honest work, it doesn't make them bad, just crooked.
:)

n said...

a guy,
and all you other silly guys, i feel compelled to counter each of these narrish verbal jabs againsts satmar or whoever. have mercy i can't get any work done..

bpunbound said...

n,

you missed the point. The tenor of your post was that because one is a better hustlers, therefore he's more apt to step over the line, whether with intent or otherwise.

My response, in extreme I admit, was to imply that it is more inbred and inculcated in 'them', whether casualy or directly, to seek, probe, and explore well BEYOND the borders and there to stake their claim. Kind of a "lechatchile ariber", if you know what I mean.

BTW, I never extended the argument to imply that one side was somehow "better" then the other. For that matter, I never identified "my entire group", as you put it.

Finally, I make two posts, both factual, and you lump me together with malach. Now don't you think YOUR being a bit extreme?

Anonymous said...

bp,
lets not be psychological in analysis..
1) you intrpreted what you percieved my tenor is and infered a conclusion..
2) you made an implication
3) you said ..'if you know what i mean" which really means 'i have an inability to communicate'...
4) you made an implication again

please let me know when you'd like to use a fact.

bpunbound said...

anon,

is that really you, the real anon, or just n trying to pull a fast one?

malach said...

Chabadskers!
Ad mosai?
Why the lies about Satmar?Do you really think that most Satmars are 'liars, thieves, murderers?' you remind me of Der Sturmers description of ALL Jews.
Now if you want to get to specifics?:May I reming you of a member of the Rebbe Shli'tas inner circle who sat in jail for fraud???
AND later a big supporter of the Rebbe as moshiach and than a back of the Mashchisen aka meshichisten? I won't name names but you all know who this is.
(For all those naive readers:By Chabaskers, anybody with a long chasidic coat is 'Satmar',anybody from Williamsburg is 'Satmar', they know so little of the Jewish world out there)
Yechi Hamelech!

16 ave guy said...

malach,
in case you havent figures this out - everyone communicating with you here lives in Boro Park. Not one of them comes from a "Lubab" home.
You may accuse them of making a bad choice of chassidus to enjoy, but they know who's who tzivishin di heimishe.

n said...

malach, 'all liars, thieves, and murderers'.. who said liars and murderers?
you are a lousy satmar representative. get out of here. you were fun for a few days...now you're getting stupid...

eli said...

Malach,
We all know what you're against. Please, pray tell, what are you for?

Hirshel Tzig said...

malach is for peace, justice, and the American way, right Malach ziser?

bpunbound said...

n,

You must be joking. Malach is a Satmerer like I'm the pope.

eli said...

Well,
We don't really KNOW that arent the pope...

go snags! said...

Eli & BP,
It's a good point... with Lubavitchers you never know. Now wouldn't that clear things up:
"...Extra, Extra!
This just in:
The Pope is a Lubavitcher!"

a guy said...

the pope is a Yekker